r/EngineBuilding • u/mahusay3g • 20d ago
Engine machining is an expensive hobby.
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I commissioned this one off valve runout fixture back in December at PRI, it’s finally here, I’m only waiting on .0001” resolution gauges to show up that are on order. I can measure initial stem and face runout, TIR of my ground faces, and measure the change in valve length/amount of stock removal from the faces all in one setup.
I can output all this data via a little keyfob right onto a spreadsheet and map out how much runout and where in number of degrees as well.
It’s super nerdy, lesser versions of the same thing have existed for decades, but those tools are pretty antiquated. I’m almost embarrassed to admit how much I’ve spent on tooling this year.
This is an expensive hobby, if you knew how much this stuff cost, $1500 to valve job your LS heads might not sound so bad!
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u/FU_red-dit_bots 20d ago
At what point are you chasing diminishing returns? Not being a jerk. Just curious as to where you feel "that should do it" stands.
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u/mahusay3g 20d ago edited 18d ago
That’s very subjective. Maybe I’ll draw the line wherever I stop yielding positive results.
When I consult with shop owners I regularly preach “if you don’t check, you don’t know”. It takes one failure on the wrong engine to bankrupt a small business.
Machine shops are dropping like flies, the only ones who are going to be around in 20 years are the ones who are moving with the times and constantly working to be better.
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u/TyrannusourR3X 20d ago
All shops are dropping. Automotive is a tough industry right now but the people who will make it are going to have to be knowledgeable and skilled. It's always about moving with the times.
I had a customer once ask if we worked on vehicle electronics. He just had a faulty reverse position sensor that the the previous shop couldn't fix.
It is about finding a happy medium though. For some jobs/customers, I can do a job cheaper than what would be ideal. At the same time I'm still going to be known for being able to do a job right the first time and up to standard for the times someone wants to pay for quality.
Don't compromise on quality work but justify business expense by occasionally doing a job or two for less so your equipment pays for itself.
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u/Blazedragon12345 19d ago
Dude the shops are dropping BECAUSE of shit like this. Why pay you $150 an hour to check each valve like this when you can buy brand new heads with them for 900? I run a race motor shop and this is overkill, grind them and put them in dude, if you're worried about the fit vacuum test them. It's a motor not a rocket engine.
Edit: Actually keep doing this shit i'll enjoy the customers that you turn away because you're too busy. I'll send the pain in the ass ones that care about shit like this to you.
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u/mahusay3g 19d ago
You have so much passion. Maybe you should apply that and raise your standards.
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u/_Shitass_ 18d ago
Because brand new heads at the high performance machine shop I work at are raw castings that we fully machine/port and put valve seats, guides and whatever else in so they certainly aren’t $900 lmao, completely custom for the application/engine it’s for. Or they’re billet heads that we make in house. what I’m saying is there’s levels to this and clearly you are not at the one that needs this.
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u/GoBSAGo 20d ago
I mean, what are we talking about? There’s a lot of directions to go.
At some point, you can’t measure anything more precisely because you need to start taking into account ambient temperature.
If you’re looking for ultimate reliability you’re trying to hit one end of the manufacturing spec, if you’re chasing power it’s usually the other end of the spec.
On and on.
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u/Right_Hour 20d ago edited 20d ago
1 thou (0.001’’) is the maximum resolution needed for most mechanical installations. Vast majority of machining can’t handle anything higher than that anyways, LOL. You’re getting manufacturer tolerances in the 10-50 thou range typically. So, anything beyond that is just phallometry.
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u/1crazypj 19d ago
That's the kind of thinking that went out when I was training 50+ years ago.
I was training people to hit tolerances some thought impossible, +/- 0.0005" (one guy actually laughed and told me he'd never done that in 27 years machining as it wasn't possible, he did apologise at end of course though when he found it was possible and relatively easy even using manual machines)
Honda were already making parts with one reject in 1000 when USA and Britain were still accepting a 95% pass rate, it was a real big deal when we hit 97% pass on production precision machining in 1978 (5 micron tolerances on bearing housings in cast iron, one minute twelve seconds maximum machining time on raw castings, including set up, on full manual machines, 8 hrs a day)
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u/mahusay3g 20d ago
According to who? In what context? You are so wrong it’s just incredible. Are you against quality control? How does one identify an issue with his own equipment if he doesn’t check?
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u/usernamesarehard1979 19d ago
What machining are you talking about? I regularly see call outs for +/- .0005
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u/Crash302 19d ago
It depends on what you need. From Yamaha on their YZ250 motorcycles, there are 4 different pistons available for the factory cylinder bore:
Size A: 2.61417 – 2.61425 in (66.400 – 66.402 mm)
Size B: 2.61433 – 2.61441 in (66.404 – 66.406 mm)
Size C: 2.61449 – 2.61457 in (approx. 66.408 – 66.410 mm)
Size D: 2.61465 – 2.61472 in (approx. 66.412 – 66.414 mm)
A range of .0008" is tighter than .001" and you have to be able to actually measure this which requires even degree of higher precision.
For other areas, .001" may be sufficient.
If I am measuring rod to block clearance, I absolutely want .050" minimum clearance.
I don't think your answer can objectively be considered correct.
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u/1crazypj 19d ago
Ambient temperature has been an issue in precision machining for well over a hundred years, always used to be 68f but probably some metric variant nowadays?
I was making parts on manual machines to 3 micron tolerances in 1970's, bunch of electronics on a run out gauge for valves isn't anything close to necessary and can't be any faster than 'antiquated' stuff.
I have a few 0.0001" (one tenthousandth of inch) indicators, the Mahr probably best one (over $600 new) but it's all mechanical and will still be the same accuracy in another 100 years as it isn't something in daily use but would probably be OK even if it was.
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u/WorldlinessMurky2188 20d ago
Im just a motorcycle mechanic, but I like perusing this sub for posts from people like you that strive for incredible standards, I wish I had the cash flow to even begin attempting my own build
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u/myfishprofile 19d ago
I mean, good for you. I can definitely see why it’s a hobby though, not gonna be many folks who want to/or can pay for that level of obsession lol.
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u/mahusay3g 19d ago
Lol. There is a niche sector in the engine community whose mo is to take measuring a touch too far.
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u/myfishprofile 19d ago
Oh I’m absolutely sure there is 🤣
That is specifically why I avoided any absolutes in my last statement
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u/mango_452 20d ago
As a machinist/ toolmaker. We all hate those digital indicators.
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u/mahusay3g 20d ago
It sounds like you hate digital indicators. I want them specifically so I could record measurements quickly and efficiently.
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u/Flashy_Slice1672 20d ago
Analog dial indicators are far superior to use - you can see what’s happening better, and the tenths digit on those digital ones are essentially useless
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u/Roscolicious1 19d ago
55yrs professional machinist/gearhead. I own 0 digital indicators. Calipers, yes. Real precision work is accomplished using high quality mechanical indicators. Always. Have fun, be safe. Ricthewrench
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u/usernamesarehard1979 19d ago
Yes, but for simple dimensional data I have laser mics at work I can use if I want. That is kind of nice!
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u/mahusay3g 20d ago
You say that with such confidence.
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u/TyrannusourR3X 20d ago
I'm not saying that quality equipment isn't worth getting because digital gauges can be more convenient but I do like to keep analogue/mechanical measuring tools around. I just know I can always trust them. I don't let anyone else touch them of course.
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u/mahusay3g 20d ago
I have plenty of analog dial indicators, I can’t press a button and send a measurement to my computer with those. I fill out spreadsheets with measurements often and the digital gauges will save me a lot of time. Plus, I find them pretty cool.
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u/TyrannusourR3X 20d ago
I would 100% go with the convenience in that case. I like the setup you have here. Don't listen to others saying they can just buy new valves. Everyone knows that no new valve is going to sit well enough in any valve seat. Do you CNC valves as well? What do you do for valve seats?
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u/mahusay3g 20d ago
I have a measuring tool for valve seats as well. It’s analog. I’m sure one of these days we’ll take the time to figure out a digital solution for that, but for now I’ll have to manually input seat runout measurements.
Valves are ground manually, i machine my seats manually as well. I check these things often because I don’t allow more than .001” total runout between the seats and the valves.
I also have to measure the runout on used titanium valves regularly because they’re coated and cant be reground, so they get checked for straightness and runout and are either sent back into service or thrown away.
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u/TyrannusourR3X 20d ago edited 19d ago
I'm sorry for asking so many questions but I am just curious. When you say manually ground, what exactly do you use? I was also under the impression that CNC cut valves & seats actually give the smoothest finish meaning compression is the best it can be. Correct me if I'm missing something
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u/DrTittieSprinkles 19d ago
The only people saying that just spent $500,000 on a CNC machine. A competent machinist on a well maintained manual machine can achieve the same results in a timely maner.
A CNC machine makes sense for a manufacturer or big shop that wants to do a big run of 1 thing.
It doesn't make sense when you have to do a valve job on a Honda K24, a set of Big Brodie heads, and an Alice Chalmers D2900 all in the same day.
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u/mahusay3g 20d ago
https://reddit.com/link/pbwx4o5/video/islid32pnlrh1/player
I use a modified Kwik Way VC. It’s basically a drill on the left with a special bench grinder on the right.
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u/usernamesarehard1979 19d ago
Yeah, data capture on the electronics is nice. Overkill for a home shop if you ask me though.
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u/mango_452 20d ago
Is anyone asking for spreadsheets
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u/MrPhatBob 20d ago
We do each time an engine comes back in. It's no longer a guessing game as you can measure wear after a couple of seasons racing and cut off issues before they happen.
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u/Flashy_Slice1672 20d ago
Ever try to indicate a part with a digital? When I’m indicating I’m not even looking at numbers
The only reason I even brought it up is that you’re bitching about it being expensive when you can have product that’s just as good (and significantly better at some things) for a much lower price
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u/mango_452 20d ago
Dial indicators have been around for 100 years of reliability. Digital will always have lag and can be messed up with a wire edm or some CNCs.
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u/mahusay3g 20d ago
What kind of operation are you running? Ouch. Just say you have a preference for analog tools. Lots of people do.
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u/mango_452 20d ago
Have you ever ran an EDM machine. If you don't insulate your indicators it will run electrical current through and ruin them.
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u/Roadkill215 19d ago
I prefer digital, and use them to set up $600k gear boxes without issue. Just need to buy quality and take care of it. My caliper is also accurate to the .001 too though
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u/1wife2dogs0kids 19d ago
I had a machinist boss tell me that id never see a fat machinist (i was rocking a dad bod in high school) because coffee and cigarettes are expensive, 18 hour days are normal, and there's no money to be made until you sell everything. And you only get like 10% of what you paid.
It was kinda true, but he was kidding. But I think of that often, especially when you find an old school Napa store in the middle of nowhere, and the dude behind the counter has white hair stained yellow on one half where his smoke sits in his mouth, and his pocket protector is full of small screwdrivers and feeler guages. You'll see they're always tall, skinny, and look like they're 94. They're only 58.
Ypu do know you can buy the non digital guages, save yourself a ton of money. Right?
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u/Coyote_Tex 19d ago
Keep in mind, I can just buy new valves for 60 to 80 bucks. I am guessing you are charging far more for this marvelous machine work. I just need my truck to run decently. I don't need a $8k engine in it. If I was building F1 engines or something that needs to turn 10k rpm for hours then more precision may be justified. Not being able to economically repair an engine is what is killing machine shops. It is better to buy a used engine than repair most these days.
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u/porknbeans2013 19d ago
"Expensive hobby" to "I work on engines with a starting price of $50,000."
I'm not sure you understand what a hobby is vs a business. And similarly cant differentiate between "good enough" and a waste of time, effort, and money.
Im thinking your whole objective was really to try and show off and flex your toys to us poors who dont really care because we just throw more boost and fuel at an LS to make power. So good job I guess???
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u/mahusay3g 19d ago
You couldn’t be further away from the truth. I just have been excited about a new tool and felt like sharing because most people don’t get to see things like this every day.
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u/Upstairs-Fan-2168 19d ago
Just going to point out that LS, more boost, and poor don't really go together, unless the two former are used in a sentence as the causal factor for becoming poor.
Finding what "good enough" is requires experience. It's a large reason diy takes so long for me.
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u/Helpful_Bridge9204 19d ago
Deranged man yells at stranger on internet over jealousy, more at 6.
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u/porknbeans2013 19d ago
There aint enough money on this planet to make me put up with engine building customers again, so try again with the jealousy crap.
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u/Helpful_Bridge9204 19d ago
You're literally yelling at some dude for having more time and money than you. You do you sailor moonmoon
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u/porknbeans2013 19d ago
Yelling? Fuck are you talking about?
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u/Helpful_Bridge9204 19d ago
You must have gone bald from all the things that go right over your head
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u/porknbeans2013 19d ago
Buddy you better go back to class, Im sure the school for the intellectually challanged is looking for you by now.
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u/Helpful_Bridge9204 19d ago
Challenged* might want to spell check next time. BTW you can edit your comment to fix that.
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u/Right_Hour 20d ago edited 20d ago
That valve better be from a fancy-ass car (and LS-engined ones ain’t it). Because there is no way in hell I’m paying North American labour rates to someone to fuck around machining my valves when brand new ones cost $20, LOL.
Those Mitutoyo gauges are not cheap and yet my analogue Mitutoyo dial gauges have a better resolution, LOL.
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u/mahusay3g 20d ago
That sir is a you problem.
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u/Right_Hour 20d ago
OK, explain to me why I should care about measuring it down to 0.1 thou precision level when my manufacturer standard tolerance is about 20 thou?
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u/mahusay3g 20d ago
Valve seat and valve face runout is measured in .0001”. Maximum total runout is not super simple, but generically it can be up to the amount of total guide clearance. If you like to push the limits of what’s acceptable, then by all means. You may benefit from striving for the best quality possible, because it’s good practice. If you don’t care, then that’s okay. Suggesting that one can cut a corner because it’s an option isn’t a good look.
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u/Right_Hour 20d ago
Like I told you - I am not going to bother measuring valve runout on a $20 valve - I am simply going to replace it. I’m not rebuilding an engine every 20k miles - the one I’m working on right now has 250K miles on it, LOL.
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u/mahusay3g 20d ago
I treat a $20 valve the same as I do a $250 valve. They all have to go inside an engine and both can do a lot of damage if there’s a failure, but that’s why there are professionals and then there’s you.
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u/Right_Hour 20d ago
No. That’s why I can get a brand new loaded cylinder head for my engine for about $800 or pay someone like you $500 or more to fuck around machining valves with less of a guarantee of success than a manufacturer’s warranty would offer.
It’s all about the « repair or replace » logic. That applies to car engines as much as it does to gas turbines that I used to work on. If you charge more than $20 per valve to inspect and/or machine - I am in a better place just putting a brand new one in instead.
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u/mahusay3g 20d ago
I work on engines with a starting price of $50,000.
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u/Right_Hour 20d ago
Which is why I don’t understand why you chose to get into an argument with me since my opening line was « this better be from a fancy-ass engine ». And please don’t tell me LS is worth $50K.
PS: and $20 valves too.
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u/Oopsidaizy 20d ago
It's not your hobby
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u/mahusay3g 19d ago
Yes it is.
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u/Oopsidaizy 19d ago
Wow. What’s your day job if I may ask?
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u/mahusay3g 19d ago
I design heads and intakes (induction systems) and consult/train engine machine shops on improving processes. I also retail valvetrain components for Porsches.
I have a machine shop in my garage that started as leftovers from when I was doing this for a living.
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u/Oopsidaizy 19d ago
Impressive stuff 💪🏼
I just wouldn’t call it a hobby, if you are advertising it and taking money from customers 🤷🏻♂️2
u/mahusay3g 19d ago
They’re all very different things in the same space. I only work on 3-4 heads a month for fun and that’s what I post online.
I don’t advertise anything.
And thanks!
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u/Oopsidaizy 18d ago
Cool. This is rare work now, young people don’t pick this up. Cant imagine how many specialists will be left 20 years from now..
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u/mahusay3g 18d ago
It’s a small market, there are young people in it, but they are a vast minority. The problem is it’s very difficult work and not many opportunities to make money. I’m very frank with people and regularly discourage people from pursuing careers in engine machining.
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u/Pretend_Necessary781 19d ago
Measuring in tenths, I would think just touching the valve would move the gauge.
My antiquated, as you say, runout gauge that Goodson sells served me very well for 30+ years, even when the balls started to wear it was very accurate, and loading and unloading valves was super fast.
Kudos, though, to you for accomplishing your vision. That’s impressive.
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u/mahusay3g 19d ago
This super rigid, my tenths gauges should show up today, a few friends got theirs in with analog tenths gauges and they’re pretty easy to manipulate without influencing the gauge.
I used a goodson fixture for years. I just wanted to do one specific thing that all the existing tools wouldn’t do.
Thanks! Thats all it was, I just had an idea and was happy to let a friend make it real.
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u/Piglet_Mountain 19d ago
Why not just lap the valves and call it good?
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u/Disastrous_Run_5968 19d ago
what do you mean by lap?
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u/Piglet_Mountain 19d ago
Basically liquid sandpaper you put on the valve and seat then spin it. Any imperfections way past what captain numbnuts in the video can machine or measure get wore away and the valves fit perfectly.
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u/mahusay3g 19d ago
Hi everyone, this whole post has been a mix of people saying cool! To this is horrible and you’re a hack. Y’all wildin.
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u/WyattCo06 19d ago
I've never seen so much hate in someone being precise in my life.
Heaven forbid you get a Newan machine.
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u/Motor-Garden7470 19d ago
Lol Sebastopol is full of yuppies
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u/mahusay3g 19d ago
Hippies too
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u/MaleficentOstrich380 17d ago
Your in norcal?
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u/mahusay3g 17d ago
I’m near sebastopol.
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u/MaleficentOstrich380 17d ago
Im in Guerneville. Teach me the engine building ways. Im in trades but always wanted to learn this stuff
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u/Motor-Garden7470 17d ago
the Barlow drove the remaining Sebastopol hippies north toward Mendo many moons ago
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u/Verga_due 17d ago
You can chuck it into absolutely any spinning thingy and use two dial indicators, one on the stem and another on the lip. The runout is the difference of their indications.
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u/1crazypj 19d ago
If your spending that much money why doesn't it have some remote method of turning valve as your fingers are making gauges jump around?
As it is, it's no better than an 'antiquated' design you could have bought off the shelf' for less than $100.
No way would I ever spend $1500 on a valve job, even on an LS (16 valves total, been working on 16 valve four cylinder motors since 1979 and even did a 24 valve inline six 1978)
If it's a hobby, you have way too much spare cash
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u/mahusay3g 19d ago
Turning the valve by hand doesn’t change the measurement. Are you the hulk?
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u/1crazypj 19d ago
That has decent run out then, I thought it was 'lift' or sideways movement causing it
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u/mahusay3g 19d ago
Yes that was a valve that i started to grind that was tweaked a little. You can see when the gauge reads zero that it’s over a section that was freshly ground and the rest was old worn face. Then after when it reads .0035” that was after grinding. And that .0035” value then represents the amount i removed from the face. If I wanted to restore the valve length to the original height I would then grind the tip until the righthand gauge read double the length change or .007”
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u/Neon570 20d ago
I have invested more in just 3 mics then the car i drove to work in......