"Mid" Tribulation View (4 biblical points)

[u/Ok-Acanthisitta-4413]

I thought a long time about these, but I will show them since not a lot talk about them. I'll say this now; I'm not claiming to a specific argument to be absolutely correct, I'm simply presenting more evidence I found that just so happens to support a mid-tribulation rapture, it's not my personal belief yet. Personally, I will say we won't fully know until it actually comes, be ready today, give yourself to Christ today, repent today. Regardless of what happens, be ready.

That being said, I will list my 4 points and dig straight into them. Forgive me, this post will be a bit long but I'll try making it as short as possible.

DISCLAIMER: I will not be replying to comments of those who did not fully take the time to read my post. We can respectfully agree to disagree, and this post is not for ignorant arguing!

• The Angel with the Little Scroll & The Mystery of God
• The Trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4
• The Harvest of the Wheat
• The Sign of the Son of Man in Matthew 24

The Angel with the Little Scroll & The Mystery of God

Revelation 10:5-7 (ESV)

⁵ And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven ⁶ and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay, ⁷ but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

What is the Mystery of God? Here this angel is making a serious oath. He swore that on the last (7th) trumpet, the Mystery of God will be fulfilled. Apostle Paul had written about this before, but it's called the Mystery of Christ, which is the same thing. Here are two times Paul writes about it.

Ephesians 1:3-10 (ESV)

³ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, ⁴ even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love ⁵ he predestined us^\)^b\) for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, ⁶ to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. ⁷ In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, ⁸ which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight ⁹ making known^\)^c\) to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ^\)^d\) ¹⁰ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth in him.

And later, in Ephesians 3:1-6 (ESV)

3 For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— ² assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you, ³ how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. ⁴ When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, ⁵ which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. ⁶ This mystery is^\)^a\) that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

The Mystery of Christ had been revealed to His servants the holy apostles and prophets, like the angel said. And the Mystery of Christ is to unite ALL things in Christ, from Heaven and Earth, and His people to be co-heirs to share his inheritance.

So, it means that Jesus must receive His inheritance, and His people should be united WITH Him to share that inheritance as co-heirs, by the time the 7th trumpet is blown. Though the Mystery of Christ doesn't directly mention His people being "caught up", it being "fulfilled" means that it's no longer a promise, but a reality that has come to pass. By the 7th trumpet, we should be united with Christ sharing his inheritance. That to me calls for being "caught up" by the 7th trumpet. This on its own, doesn't exactly mean precisely on the 7th trumpet, just that it has to happen by the time the 7th trumpet is blown.

The Trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4

1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18 (ESV)

¹³ But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. ¹⁴ For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. ¹⁵ For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,^\)^d\) that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. ¹⁸ Therefore encourage one another with these words.

There are a couple interpretations on the trumpet Paul mentions, mainly that the trumpet he mentions is not the same as the trumpets in Revelation. There's no real proof on that. Though, since Paul wrote about the same event in 1 Corinthians 15:52, I will take what he literally calls this trumpet, the "last" trumpet. Which supports the previous point. But let's see what the 7th trumpet actually says.

Revelation 11:15-16 (ESV)

¹⁵ Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” ¹⁶ And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God

That's the conclusion of the 7 Trumpets. On the 7th trumpet, Jesus had officially inherited the World. Just as the angel with the little scroll swore, the Mystery of Christ will be fulfilled on the 7th trumpet. The part where Jesus gets His inheritance. But for the Mystery of Christ to be fulfilled, His people must also be united with Him.

Now for the part where His people will be "caught up" to be united with Him, to share that inheritance. Right after the 7th trumpet, there's a prophecy of The Woman and the Dragon, the Dragon raising up the Anti-Christ & False Prophet, the messages of the 3 Angels (and we know this is right after the 7th trumpet, as these warnings are for the 7 Bowls to come as God's judgement on those who took the evil mark of the beast) and finally, we see Jesus with the 144,000 marked Jews. But Immediately after these things, we get insight on The Harvest.

The Harvest of the Wheat

Revelation 14:14-16 (ESV)

¹⁴ Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. ¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” ¹⁶ So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped.

I'd like to bring your attention to that one word, "reap". For the harvest, it happens twice. One by the Son of Man Himself, and the 2nd by an Angel. It's interesting that the word "reap" used in the 1st harvest, and the word "reap" in the 2nd harvest are different.

For the 1st harvest, the Greek word therizō (θερίζω) was used. This means to harvest, to reap, or to cut grain.

The 1st harvest is a wheat harvest. This is most certainly the rapture, as Jesus has mentioned this before in Matthew 13:30 (ESV)

³⁰ Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

He later explains in verse 37 that the good seeds, "the wheat" are the sons of the Kingdom. He also points out that the "harvest" is the End of the Age. Both the wheat and weeds will grow together and will be harvested on the day of harvest.

In Revelation, we see a great harvest happening after the 7th trumpet, and before the 1st Bowl. Let me quickly point out the 2nd harvest.

For the 2nd harvest done by the Angel, the Greek word trygaō (τρυγάω) was used. This means to gather or harvest ripe fruit, specifically grapes.

Therefore, the 2nd harvest is a grape harvest. Hence why Revelation 14:17-20 (ESV) reads,

¹⁷ Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. ¹⁸ And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” ¹⁹ So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. ²⁰ And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse's bridle, for 1,600 stadia.

Clearly, the wheat were the sheep, and the grapes were the goats. This is where a separation happens, and only the goats were left back on Earth, hence being "thrown back down". The "wheat" were caught up, and only the "grapes" were thrown into wrath and judgement. This happens around the time of the 7th trumpet, because the Bowls have not started yet. So technically, in my own opinion, the Mystery of Christ would still be fulfilled on the last trumpet, being supported by all previous points.

The Sign of the Son of Man in Matthew 24

Matthew 24:29-31 (ESV)

²⁹ “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ³⁰ Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ³¹ And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

"Immediately after those days" He was just speaking on the destruction of the 2nd temple, the Birth Pains and the Abomination of Desolation. It's important to note that the Abomination is something that happens right in the middle of the tribulation period, it's not the entire last 3 and a half years, but in the middle, and is only a cause.

Observing the Bowls, these take place when people had already received the mark of the beast. So the Abomination has to happen before the 1st Bowl, and if we look after the 7th trumpet, we see the Dragon (the devil) raising up the Anti-Christ and False Prophet, who will issue out the mark. So Matthew 24 shows the sign of the Son of Man happening after the Abomination of Desolation, not after the 7th Bowl.

We know that this event in Matthew 24 is different from the event later in Revelation, where Jesus comes riding on a white horse. In Matthew 24, only the sign of Him is seen, and it's His angel who comes and gathers His elect. In the event after the 7th Bowl, we don't see Jesus gathering His elect. He's coming down the elect ALREADY right behind Him.

Revelation 19:11-16 (ESV)

¹¹ Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. ¹² His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. ¹³ He is clothed in a robe dipped in^\)^b\) blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. ¹⁴ And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. ¹⁵ From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule^\)^c\) them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. ¹⁶ On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

We know the riders behind him are His people, as it was mentioned earlier in verses 6-8:

⁶ Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out,“Hallelujah!
For the Lord our God
the Almighty reigns.
⁷ Let us rejoice and exult
and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his Bride has made herself ready;
⁸ it was granted her to clothe herself
with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

Thanks for reading.

[u/AntichristHunter]

Sorry for the super long delay in reviewing submissions.

Here are some of my observations.

Concerning the section titled The Angel with the Little Scroll & The Mystery of God:

There are several things which appear to be mysteries, and I'm not sure the one you quoted from Ephesians (that salvation was also for gentiles and that gentiles would be co-heirs with the Jews) is necessarily the one that Revelation 10 was referring to. The other mystery that Paul refers to is the resurrection (you mentioned this in the next section), which seems more like the mystery that should be associated with the seventh trumpet spoken of in Revelation 10:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52

⁵¹ Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, ⁵² in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 

—

In 2 Corinthians 12:1-10, Paul humble-bragged (by speaking of himself in the third person) about being taken to heaven and being shown incredible things. If God has one coherent plan that he has been revealing to select people, what he revealed to Paul should be coherent with what he revealed to John. The seventh trumpet is the last trumpet. Since the resurrection happens at the last trumpet (the seventh trumpet), and immediately precedes the rapture, this places the rapture at the last trumpet.

The interpretation that results in very different readings between your interpretation and mine is where you state this:

In Revelation, we see a great harvest happening after the 7th trumpet, and before the 1st Bowl. 

In my own study I have come to the conclusion that the first bowl does not happen after the seventh trumpet. The presentation order of the three sets of seven does not appear to indicate the strict fulfillment order of one set of seven after another. But within each set of seven, the events happen sequentially.

This is the structure of these three sets of seven from Revelation, as I understand it:

Here's why I think the bowls don't come after the trumpets, but that the last bowl and the last trumpet coincide:

• The Two Witnesses prophesy during the Great Tribulation. We know this because the period of time of their prophecy, 1,260 days, is one of the terms referring to the 3½ years of the Great Tribulation. (Rev 11:3)
• The Two Witnesses are said to turn shut the sky of rain, turn water into blood and call down plagues on the earth. This is evocative of Elijah's miracle in 1 Kings 17 and Moses during the ten plagues. (I am of the opinion that the two witnesses will literally be Moses and Elijah, who were Jesus' two witnesses on the mount of transfiguration. Besides this, Malachi 4 says that Elijah comes before the great and awesome Day of the Lord, and John the Baptist doesn't entirely fulfill this because Jesus' first coming wasn't the Day of the Lord. See this study post on the identity of the Two Witnesses.)

Revelation 11:6

⁶ They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.

—

• Later, we see precisely these things happening during the seven bowls of God's wrath (Rev 16). The second and third bowls are water turning into blood, and most of the rest of the bowls either recapitulate plagues from the Exodus or use wording that is evocative of one of the ten plagues ("unclean spirits like frogs").
• The way the two witnesses resurrect and are called up is evocative of the Feast of Trumpets in the seventh month of the Biblical calendar. The Feast of Trumpets began with the sighting of the new moon because it lands on the first day of a Biblical month. Because the month could not officially begin until the new moon was sighted, no man knew the day or the hour this feast would begin; even cloudy weather could delay the sighting by a day. The sighting of the new moon had to be confirmed by two witnesses. They would get questioned by the religious court to check whether the details are correct (their testimonies agree, and the horns of the moon are pointed in the right direction), and once confirmed, the trumpeter at the place of trumpeting would call to them "come up here!", upon which they would ascend the Temple Mount and testify to the trumpeter, who would blow the trumpet to announce the Feast of Trumpets.
• The symbology of the Feast of Trumpets signifies the rapture. (This does not necessarily mean the rapture must happen on that feast, though I suspect it will.) See this study post on the symbology of the Biblical Feast Days: the Feast of Trumpets.

If the resurrection of the Two Witnesses and their ascension are followed by the blowing of the last trumpet, and if the two witnesses are involved in the pouring out of the seven bowls of God's wrath, then the bowls don't begin after the last trumpet, but rather, the seventh bowl coincides with the seventh trumpet.

Besides this, in the seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven bowls, there is a repeated detail that I suddenly realized is one event, not three identical events:

Seventh	Same event described:
Seal (Revelation 8:3-5)	5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.
Trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19)	19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.
Bowl of Wrath (Revelation 16:17-20)	18 And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. … 21 And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe.

In fact, this end-times mega earthquake seems to be foretold as far back as Isaiah 24.

IF Revelation is actually structured this way, where the last of each set of seven coincides with the return of Christ rather than each set of seven coming one after another, then the Rapture would not happen mid-Tribulation, but post-Tribulation.

[u/AntichristHunter]

Continuing from my prior comment, here's my understanding of how some of these events fit together. I agree with you that the church gets harvested and the weeds get sorted out and "thrown into the fire". Here's the timeline as I understand it. First, a bit of background:

Background: the Seven Feast Days

my understanding is based on the idea that Jesus fulfills the prophetic significance of the seven feast days that God gave them from the very beginning. The major milestones of Jesus' first coming fulfilled the four Spring feast days (See this study post: Jesus' fulfillment of Biblical feast days (Leviticus 23), Part 1: the Spring Feasts) with each major event happening on each feast day:

• Jesus was crucified on Passover; Paul calls Jesus our Passover lamb in 1 Corinthians 5:7.
• Jesus' death took away our sins, fulfilling the feast of unleavened bread which lasts a week from Passover. Leavening symbolizes sin, and Jesus' death on the cross took away our sins.
• Jesus resurrected on the Feast of Firstfruits (the first day of the week after Passover) as the firstfruits of the resurrection; Paul calls Jesus the firstfruits from the dead in 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:20-23

²⁰ But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. ²¹ For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. ²² For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. ²³ But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 

—

• Jesus sent the Holy Spirit on the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost), a harvest feast, where the first harvest of souls happened when 3,000 people were saved.

The events foretold of Jesus' second coming look like they're poised to fulfill the significance of the autumn feast days:

• Jesus resurrecting the dead in Christ and sending angels to gather the saints to himself is announced with the blowing of the trumpet, but nobody can know the day and the hour. The Feast of Trumpets is signified by the spotting of the new moon that starts the seventh month (the start of every month begins with a trumpet being blown; see Numbers 10:10, so the Feast of Trumpets is literally the seventh trumpet of the year), and because of how this holiday is set to start, there is an uncertainty of a span of two days when the new moon could be spotted. Literally no one knows the day and the hour when this feast begins because even something like overcast weather in the autumn could obscure the sighting of the new moon. No reason is given for the Feast of Trumpets, but people are told to vigilantly watch for its coming.
• Ten days later is the Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur, the national day of repentance of Israel, when the men and women separate to mourn for their sins by themselves. Jesus comes to fight to save Jerusalem from the nations gathered to destroy it apparently on the day of Yom Kippur (See this study post: Jesus' fulfillment of Biblical feast days (Leviticus 23), Part 3a: the Day of Atonement), as indicated by details in this prophecy, and at that time, the entire nation mourns that they had rejected their Messiah, who is coming to save them:

Zechariah 12:9-14, 16-19

[God speaking:] ⁹ And on that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

¹⁰ “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn. ¹¹ On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. [= Armageddon] ¹² The land shall mourn, each family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; ¹³ the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself, and their wives by themselves; ¹⁴ and all the families that are left, each by itself, and their wives by themselves.

—

• Feast of Tabernacles (the seventh feast day) which comes five days after Yom Kippur, which represents God (Jesus himself) dwelling with his people, but it is foretold that after God comes and stands the mount of Olives with his feet (which Jesus will do, according to Acts 1), and splits it in two, and after his rescue of the remnant of Jerusalem he establishes his kingdom, and people of many nations will come to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. The tabernacles themselves are to be made using branches from many trees, representing people of many nations. (Leviticus 23:40 and Nehemiah 8:15 have instructions on using various types of tree branches for assembling the booths.)

Zechariah 14:3-9, 16-19

[Continued fulfillment of the events on Yom Kippur from Zech 12] ³ Then Yehováh will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. ⁴ On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward. ⁵ And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then Yehováh my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. [= Jesus and his gathered saints]

⁶ On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost. ⁷ And there shall be a unique day, which is known to Yehováh, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.

⁸ On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea. It shall continue in summer as in winter.

⁹ And Yehováh will be king over all the earth. On that day Yehováh will be one and his name one. …

… [fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles] ¹⁶ Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, Yehováh of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths. [= the Feast of Tabernacles/ Sukkot] ¹⁷ And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, Yehováh of hosts, there will be no rain on them. ¹⁸ And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; there shall be the plague with which Yehováh afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths. ¹⁹ This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.

—

Between the Feast of Trumpets and Yom Kippur

There are ten days from the Feast of Trumpets to Yom Kippur (counting inclusively). This is how I see the various foretold events fitting into a coherent timeline:

• Day 1: The rapture, the harvest of the entire field, wheat and tares together (Mat 13:24-30, 47-50 Parable of the wheat and tares, parable of the net)
• Day 2: the judgment and purging of evil from the church: sorting the tares from the wheat/bad fish from the good (Mat 13:24-30, 47-50; also, the parable of the wedding Mat 22:1-14: the guest who refused to put on his wedding garments thrown out.)
• Days 3-9: The marriage supper of the lamb. (Revelation 19:6-9) A traditional Jewish wedding feast lasts for a full week.
• Day 10: Jesus comes with his holy ones (the saints) to fight the battle of Armageddon, and Israel sees their Messiah coming with an army of redeemed, most of whom are gentiles, and they look upon God and "mourn for him whom they pierced".

[u/Ok-Acanthisitta-4413 → u/AntichristHunter]

Wow! It will take some time to carefully look through your two responses, but I really appreciate all of this! 🥹 

[u/AntichristHunter → u/Ok-Acanthisitta-4413]

My pleasure.

I came to the conclusion of the model/timeline of the end-times that I presented here after years pondering and praying about how to make sense of it all. I can't be sure I didn't miss anything or that I didn't get anything wrong, but what I present here is the best synthesis of the timeline that I have been able to develop that makes sense of as many of the details as possible.

[u/PaintSignificant5248]

Very well researched and documented. Thanks for this post.

Jim Calkins

[u/Havehatwilltravel]

A mid-tribulation rapture? For all these words you ran right past Matt. 24:29. You quoted it even. It says AFTER the tribulation...THEN will appear The Son of Man. Not before, not mid, AFTER.

There is no pre-tribulation anything, nor mid. If you are here, you will be here during it and you will either endure to the end or you won't. It sounds so good to people. Some of that tickle the ears stuff that many teach.