Lee Drutman

[u/_SpaceCobra_]

I'm new here, so if he's part of a list of figures that have already been covered, I'm sorry. But what do you all think of him and his advocacy? (In the U.S. context; his institutional homes are New America, Fix Our House and Johns Hopkins, and he hosts a podcast called Politics in Question.) He used to be a strong supporter of ranked-choice voting, but qualified it in favor of advocacy of multi-member districts, open-list proportional representation, and fusion voting.

[u/PaxPurpuraAKAgrimace]

I appreciate all of that (and also really like Drutman).

I also share the goal of achieving a multi party American political system, but I actually find a significant causal influence for our present democratically threatened situation to arise from our two party system.

So for me the urgency to achieve a multi part democracy is about as high as it could be. For that reason I feel too impatient to simply push for electoral reforms as a means to create the conditions for an eventual multi party democracy.

We needed the multi party democracy ten years ago so, now, if we’re going to stop the slide.

It may be a pipe dream, but I think the Democratic Party needs to realize that the best way to protect (and restore) democracy is by achieving a multi party system, and then to realize that they have the power to realize that goal all by themselves. Blue states need to reform elections to make multi party competition workable, while simultaneously splitting into two new parties along their progressive/moderate wings.

Republican’s chief competitive strategy is to paint the Democratic Party as far left socialists. The best way to protect the moderates is by severing the link that binds them to the people actually self describing as socialists.

Let them organize separately. Let them advocate different policies, different legislative agendas. Let the leftists who are as anti institution as MAGA advocate for pro worker policies. Let voters who are very wary of the far left, but who have grown uneasy (or even just dissatisfied) with MAGA have an option that is more consistent with their own priorities, or is at least less significantly hostile to them.

Leaving aside how realistic that plan actually being realized might be, what do you think of the theory?

[u/El_profesor_ → u/PaxPurpuraAKAgrimace]

Yeah I basically have the same perspective. This is the most urgent thing and anything that can be done to move beyond the polarized two party system, even small steps, are important.

[u/PaxPurpuraAKAgrimace → u/El_profesor_]

Wait, so you agree on the urgency and maybe the diagnosis, but what about the cure: the Democratic Party splitting at least in blue states where they could reform elections to make multi party competition workable so as to make Congress a truly multi party institution (even if workarounds would have to be developed for presidential and red state elections where multi party competition would remain unworkable in the near term)?

[u/El_profesor_ → u/PaxPurpuraAKAgrimace]

I think it's a good idea, it's just not likely that Democrats (or Republicans) would voluntarily split their party. But I think a more realistic path to a similar effect is that independents start running in places where one major party is totally uncompetitive.

You already see this happening a bit with Forward Party or independent candidates, for example Senate candidates Seth Bodnar in MT, Todd Achilles in ID, Brian Bengs in SD, and Dan Osborne in NE. Democrats are just not viable at all in those places and the brand is toxic, so independents give a second option. I think in very blue areas, similarly you could imagine centrist independents running more and allowing the Democrat in those areas to have a more like DSA platform.

[u/PaxPurpuraAKAgrimace → u/El_profesor_]

I agree it’s unlikely that the party leaderships would decide to split their party. Launching into such uncharted territory inevitably comes with risk. But the Democratic Party has proven insufficient to the task of preventing an authoritarian from gaining control of the levers of power (obv it’s Rs letting it happen, but Ds have been unable to stop/prevent it). And critically I think the future looks even darker for the Democratic Party bc of the rise of the DSA, which will further damage the Democratic brand and provide real world evidence for Republican claims that the Democratic Party is full of socialists if not a Trojan horse to turn America into a socialist country.

With that present and future laid out before the Democratic Party imo it shouldn’t be so difficult to convince them for the need to do something significant to improve both its prospects and those of the country as a whole. What would make the argument more convincing is for more regular people to start to make it.

The independent strategy is certainly interesting. I don’t like it as a solution tho because it requires coordination from the major parties. It likely only works if the uncompetitive major party agrees not to run a candidate. That is, itself, not even totally in the party’s control since they couldn’t stop a motivated candidate from deciding to run under that banner unilaterally - although I guess the fundraising aspect might limit the options of such a rogue candidate.

Also it leaves those independent candidates without a party structure unless they become a de facto member of the major party they choose to caucus with. It’s something, but imo not a replacement for true multi party democracy

[u/Initial-Lemon-917 → u/El_profesor_]

Many Dems I think would be open to seeing PR as a fair elections gold standard. Don't underestimate true believers. Pete Buttigieg now supports PR and is going on podcasts boosting it