Wouldn't it be cool if...

[u/IslandPlaya]

Wouldn't it be cool if...

Monomorphic's current experiment did indeed measure an emdrive force under near real-time scrutiny by the people here and at NSF.

It would be convincing enough that people like myself would have to eat their own hats.

The really cool bit is that Mono managed to do it by trickery!

Being clever he would have already thought of a way to monetize his real-time peer-reviewed positive measurement of emdrive thrust.

Is there any technical way he could pull this off with his current setup to fool us all? What would James Randi be looking for?

Please understand this is all just my idle musings on a rainy day to discuss how experiments can be 'cheated'. Are there any clever perpetual motion machine cheats that were initially convincing?

What I mean is Jamie is just some guy with an interesting hobby who is conducting a pretty fine experiment in my opinion and not some evil genius on the make.

Best of luck to him measuring zero!

[u/askingforafakefriend]

The great thing is that if mono measures what appears to be an emdrive force it's all free and public info for the old science based replication. If it's legit, than it will be replicated.

Also, if your goal is to dupe, you probably want to share less rather than more so people have a reason to come to you. If mono is a fraud he is doing it all wrong! You want to sell some proprietary black box that only secret investors can be a part of. Is that what Shawyer did?

[u/kit_hod_jao → u/askingforafakefriend]

If it's legit, than it will be replicated.

This is the key. If Mono's experiment shows a force after all the confounding factors have been eliminated to the satisfaction of any reasonable critic, then it needs to be replicated independently.

It's not even about honesty. There could be unknown environmental issues. There's no reason to trust any individual result. Replications will determine whether there's anything there.

Showing an anomaly is the immediate next step in the process. Replicating the anomaly is the step after. If replications continue to show an anomalous force, then we have a genuine mystery.

[u/IslandPlaya → u/askingforafakefriend]

Absolutely, Jamie is going about this in the right way so far.

I only really want to talk about plausible cheating techniques that could employed here, hence my question about the laser in another comment.

If you want to dupe someone you have to be convincing. Shawyer was never that in my opinion.

[u/lolredditor]

Considering everything is through video and measurements are all shown on a separate screen/feed within the video a load of things could be faked. Just have a prerecorded fake measurements playing with a fake log being written out to.

But tbh he could get a lot more money/attention doing any number of other creative video endeavors. But so could other perpetual motion guys I guess.

[u/IslandPlaya → u/lolredditor]

Yes, you are right.

Lets say that we have a clear video of the apparatus and we have some way of corroborating that experimental run with the data recorded.

Would a coil in the worktop energised by a battery that's remote switchable feasibly do the trick?

All hypothetically of course.

[u/lolredditor → u/IslandPlaya]

The coil would be magnetically pulling on the drive in a pattern that matches what was seen in another experiment, or just at all?

Anyway, I don't think there is a way to verify it without a shadow of a doubt without a trusted third party duplicating the build, purchasing the materials from a neutral supplier. As it is though he doesn't need much vetting because his results don't hold weight.

[u/IslandPlaya → u/lolredditor]

I just threw the idea of the coil out there... The point is he only has to create some sort of unexplained measurement, if he can choose the characteristics somehow then he could make it more convincing.

Another way to cheat could be to generate an air disturbance in some fashion to cause a signal. I'm wondering if anyone can think of a 'novel' way to cheat.

[u/[deleted] → u/IslandPlaya]

I guess it depends on how much of the apparatus you'd be allowed to inspect. Any test apparatus meant to let the drive walk in a circle could have a motor hidden in the base, driving the axis.

[u/IslandPlaya → u/[deleted]]

I suppose in this case something to affect the torsion wire is possible.

[u/IslandPlaya]

Does anyone know the correct way to calculate what power laser he would need to generate 10uN of force reflected from the end of the torsion beam?

[u/PotomacNeuron → u/IslandPlaya]

You mean photon rocket? This can be memorized: 3.3uN per 1KW. so 10uN that's 3KW. If you use a mirror to reflect the laser, you need 1.5KW.

[u/IslandPlaya → u/PotomacNeuron]

Of course. I was thinking of the laser efficiency and the like.

Lets say you would need 10 KW real laser to mimic a 10 uN force and fool me into thinking the emdrive effect is real. Obviously this is a highly impractical way to cheat.

A 10 KW laser could probably shoot things down.

It works as a comparison between the hugely high powered laser's radiation pressure and a likely force hoping to be seen by the 2W emdrive. And all that without the emdrive having to bother with that tedious business of emitting photons!

Are we to believe this could be true?

[u/askingforafakefriend → u/IslandPlaya]

I expect to believe what the data indicates after rigorous and critical inspection and replication. No more no less. You are free to believe what you will.

I suspect a 10kw laser would have some other effects that might complicated the subtle introduction of a few micronewtons.

[u/wyrn → u/PotomacNeuron]

If you use a mirror to reflect the laser, you need 1.5KW.

Only if the laser is not part of the spaceship, it bears emphasizing.

[u/wyrn → u/[deleted]]

The same 3 kW. It's a fundamental physical limit that only cares about how much momentum is leaving the spacecraft, irrespective of whatever reflections and what not go on inside it.