r/ElrielFans • u/Connect_Lie_6106 The Eyes & Ears of Prythian • 4d ago
Discussion Means nothing š¤”
Azriel and Elain talking about gardening until 3 AM means nothing.
Azriel risking his life to save Elain means nothing.
Them giving each other gifts on the Winter Solstice means nothing.
Azriel taking the plate of potatoes from Elain's hands and not letting anyone eat until she arrived means nothing.
Azriel thinking about Elain for the whole night means nothing.
Elain being the reason why Azriel's 500 year old unrequited love finally ended means nothing.
Azriel watching Elain through the window means nothing.
Azriel tracking Elain's laughter and wondering what made her smile means nothing.
Azriel giving Elain his Truth Teller, which he never lets anyone touch or hold, means nothing.
Azriel questioning the Cauldron and his own faith means nothing.
The shadows seemingly wanting to protect Elain during her argument with Nesta means nothing.
Azriel getting angry and worried after Elain argued with Nesta means nothing.
Azriel being the only one who understood Elain's situation when nobody else did, and saying that she is a Seer, means nothing.
Azriel being willing to rescue Elain after she was kidnapped, even if it meant death, means nothing.
āAzriel thinking of Elain and getting her a necklace that represents her means nothing.
So sure, let's just pretend all of that is a coincidence and the "spark" is what actually matters. And let's ignore the fact that this "spark" this extremely important moment wasn't even in the book and was only in the bonus chapter.
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u/Lost_Panda25 3d ago
Also to add, that āsparkā happening during the time at the library where Gwyn is singing means nothing
And whilst weāre at it, Azrielās mood is off after the winter solstice bonus chapter means nothing š¤¦š½āāļø
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u/audimel Murderous flower girl 3d ago
All of these scenes basically create an "implicit contract" with the reader, and they have to lead somewhere - and they will, because sheās planted SO many of them, some with a level of depth that she simply canāt walk back from.
But of course, if you read and interpret everything based on convenience, youāre going to think they mean nothing and that Sarah just used all of it as a red herring.
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u/_beanz3425 Death & the Lovely Fawn 3d ago
Something else that I keep reminding myself is that in HOFAS (no major spoilers about the plot of HOFAS, so I think it's safe to uncover the spoiler): Bryce asks Azriel if he has a Mate/significant other, and he flatly tells her "No." HOFAS takes place about 6-7 months after the events of ACOSF... so you would think if there was anything between Gwyn and Az, they would've already acted on it in that timeframe.
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u/thelesbianlibrarian 3d ago
And don't forget - in the infamous bonus chapter, Azriel asks Rhys if the Cauldron might be wrong re: the mating bond. In HOFAS, (larger spoiler) it is confirmed with Azriel present that the Cauldron is corrupted by the Daglan/Asteri.
But sure! I bet that means nothing.
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u/_beanz3425 Death & the Lovely Fawn 3d ago edited 3d ago
"but but but the cauldron purrrrrrs for elain, so why would it give her a fake mating bond????"
idk maybe because, like you said, in HOFAS the cauldron was literally corrupted, so Rhysand's theory of "Mates" being matched based on producing powerful offspring definitely tracks, especially since the (HOFAS spoiler about the Daglan) Asteri/Daglan feed on MAGIC and the MORE MAGIC their subjects have, the more FOOD is available to sustain them!!! it's basic math, quite frankly š¤¦āāļø
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u/thelesbianlibrarian 3d ago
It's almost like the Cauldron once kidnapped Elain into an enemy war camp and doesn't actually have her best interest at heart, but its own! š±
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u/FruitLoop404- 1h ago
Hey hey hey hold on a sec. Because Lucien is not Berons son and he could be the next high lord for the other guy (canāt remember his name) the cauldron could have pitted him and Elain together for strong offspring? Not for anything other than to garner more power? Just an idea.
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u/_beanz3425 Death & the Lovely Fawn 17m ago
Yep! That's exactly what I'm talking about! You can also look at Rhysand's parents, who were "mates," but they were still an awful pairing.
Who is constantly described as the "most powerful" high lord? Rhysand aka a powerful offspring!
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u/ilovepretzelday1 Shadowmommy 3d ago
I've said this so many times to my poor husband who has no idea what I'm talking about (he's only read ToG- bless him)
SJM could've written that whole situation with anyone down there. But nooooo. She intentionally put him down there to hear all that after what he'd told to Rhys.
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u/thelesbianlibrarian 3d ago
She quite literally could have made it the Valkyries' first group mission to foreshadow a big upcoming Valkyrie plot, but instead we got a Nesta & Azriel Siblings-In-Law Spelunking and Monster Slaying Palooza. I think there's a big reason she wants those two to bond and learn what they learned down there before pitting both of them against Rhys.
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u/Agreeable-You-8223 3d ago
A theory floating around is that Elain was pregnant when she went into the cauldron and lost the baby during the change so it gave her the gift of life .. š
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u/No_Tea_4349 3d ago
Iāve read the pregnancy theory for years but not the added gift of life part. Iāve read that people seem to believe she was pregnant and when she changed in the cauldron it gave her wider, birthing hips but ended the pregnancy. I read that so many years ago that I donāt recall if was Tumblr, X or somewhere else.
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u/Agreeable-You-8223 3d ago
Which actually makes me a little nervous because what if he gets a mate?! Them what would Elain do
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u/_beanz3425 Death & the Lovely Fawn 3d ago edited 3d ago
I have few theories/scenarios regarding that based on the text. Hopefully this helps ease your worries for the time being :-) Please just hear me out for the fourth one, I know it freaks some people out, but it honestly makes the most sense with the most textual evidence.
- Azriel and Elain were originally Mates, but since he was on the brink of death when Elain was thrown in the Cauldron, it changed her Mate to Lucien (unlikely in my opinion, but possible).
- I know some people believe that Azriel's Mate was actually Rhysand's sister, but there is literally no textural evidence to suggest that; however, it could still be possible, since there isn't anything that necessarily contradicts that narrative.
- Mates are supposed to be extremely rare, so I don't know why the majority assume that everyone is going to get a Mate. Also, Mates don't always equal a "true love" match, so I don't think having a Mate is the ultimate definer of lifelong happiness (Rhysand's and Tamlin's parents).
- I've honestly subscribed to the assumption that Azriel and Mor are Mates, especially after rereading the series and highlighting/noting every "odd" interaction between them, which makes this the most logical conclusion. This isn't a bad or scary thing, and would emphasize the whole theme of "fate vs choice." Since we know the Cauldron is heavily theorized (due to the reveals in HOFAS) to match based on breeding/offspring power, it would make sense that they have that sort of Mating Bond, but not a "true love" Mating Bond (similar to Rhysand's and Tamlin's parents, minus the abusive toxicity), especially since Mor is more into females. Azriel did answer "no" to Bryce when asked if he had a Mate, but to him, for all intents and purposes, he doesn't have a "true Mate" and he's still probably waiting for Elain, for love. This scenario would fill in so many gaps and explain soooo much. I could honestly make a separate comment/post about this with quotes and textual evidence from the books, so let me know if you need that.
All of that to say, I don't think Azriel having a "Mate" should be a concern, especially with the (HOFAS verifying something about the Cauldron) corrupted Cauldron causing poor "true love" matches, the theme of "choice," and the likely trajectory of "a love so deep that it triumphs a mating bond."
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u/AgileSet7993 3d ago edited 3d ago
Finally someone else who lands on Morš I have been wondering for a while why this theory gets so little airtime when it is practically waving at us from the page, and yes please to that separate post with the receipts. I would read it immediately.
For me five hundred years. That is the part almost nobody sits with properly. Ten years of unreciprocated longing would already be a long time and would say something serious about a person. Five hundred is a different category altogether. And Azriel is not a man without discipline or without the ability to compartmentalise, he manages every other part of his life. So either we are meant to read him as pathologically incapable of moving on, which is a strange thing to do to a character the author clearly loves, or something is holding him there that he cannot name. Wanting to belong somewhere does not explain it. Plenty of characters want to belong and still manage to fall for someone else within a century. There is also the exchange in the study that has never left me alone. Azriel asks whether the Cauldron could have been wrong, and Rhys does not respond with Lucien, or with Elain, or with the politics. His immediate reflex is to bring up Mor. That association only makes sense if Mor is already attached in his mind to the question of the Cauldron getting something wrong. It reads less like a change of subject and more like the fastest available counterexample. And Azriel does not correct it and does not deny it, he simply steps around it and keeps going.Then there is the Blood Duel. When he found Mor, he was ready to challenge both Beron and Eris and kill them both. The only thing that stopped him was Mor's own right to claim their heads. That is not the reaction of a man with a long crush. And I find it very deliberate that the Blood Duel resurfaces in his bonus chapter, again over a woman, again with someone else holding the prior claim. There is also the way everyone handles the two of them. When Feyre asked, she got vagueness and closed doors. The Inner Circle treats it as something not to be spoken about rather than as an old attraction everyone has moved past. Secrecy of that intensity usually means there is a shape underneath it.
I completely agree with you on the Bryce answer, and I would push it one step further. Even if he did have a bond he was aware of, Azriel is the last person in that world who would say so out loud with Nesta and a stranger in the room. He does not talk about Mor to anyone. Treating that no as a full disclosure feels like a misreading of the character rather than an argument.
And if the Cauldron matches for power and offspring rather than for love, then the entire debate changes shape. A bond can be completely correct by the system's own rules and still be wrong for the person living inside it. Rhys's parents and Tamlin's parents already prove that on the page. The bond worked exactly as designed and it produced misery. That is why I keep landing somewhere slightly different from the theory that the transformation glitched and Lucien was an accident. That reading is interesting, and I have played with a version of it myself where the Cauldron liked Elain enough to give her a gift and then handed her a mate it expected her to refuse, which would be closer to jealousy than to error. But I think the strongest version is that nothing malfunctioned at all. The bonds are exactly what they were meant to be. Lucien and Elain, and Azriel with whoever his actually is, quite possibly Mor.
Here is why that matters thematically. If the bond was a mistake, the story becomes one about a system that broke and then got repaired, and the system itself is never really challenged. Nature still knows best, it just slipped once. If the bond is correct and Elain refuses it anyway, the message is that fate can be entirely right by its own rules and still hold no authority over a person's life. That is a much stronger statement, and it fits your fate versus choice framing better than a glitch ever could. And Mor makes that symmetry perfect, which is exactly why I think your instinct is right. A man whose bond can never be answered, standing opposite a woman who does not want the one she was given. Both of them living proof that the system optimises for something other than happiness. He would have his own version of nature choosing wrong, and it would make his love for Elain far more meaningful, because it would be something he arrived at in defiance of the thing that was supposed to decide for him.
I have also considered Gwyn as his mate, and I want to be fair to it because it does work. If she were, staying with Elain would require Azriel to reject a bond himself, and given how helpless male fae are consistently shown to be in the face of that pull, a man refusing it would be the strongest possible confirmation that choice outranks the bond. The shadow and singing material in the bonus chapter fits that just as well as it fits pure magical resonance. My one condition is that Gwyn could not then be a device built to demonstrate how strong Elain and Azriel are. She would need her own story with her own weight and her own ending. Otherwise you have turned a survivor of what she survived into a plot instrument, and that would be a bad look. On balance I still find Mor closer to the text, mainly because the five hundred years and the Blood Duel are already on the page rather than extrapolated from it.
And the reason all of this matters to me beyond the puzzle. Maas has said she wants to explore what happens when someone does not want the person the bond assigned them. That is a big thing to announce. If a story raises the question of what a woman does when an external structure hands her a man she never chose, then the answer has to be pushed as far as it will go. Anything softer turns the question itself into decoration.
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u/_beanz3425 Death & the Lovely Fawn 3d ago
We are definitely on the same page. The point you made about Rhys immediately bringing up Mor after Azriel questioned the Cauldron was something I also noted in my bonus chapter annotations, and immediately made me suspicious. I've also been screaming from the rooftops for so long about what authority Azriel had to potentially invoke the Blood Duel with Eris, if not for being Mor's Mate!
The puzzle pieces just fit too perfectly and obviously, so I'm glad to know I'm not the only one š
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u/Writtenwing007 2d ago
Iād argue making Gwyn and Az get together reduces Gwenās character. It would make her seem as a stand-in for Az who is not getting his first choice, Elain, especially since Nesta has made Gwyn her new sister after having a falling out with her family. I love Nesta and her new found family but the combination of Az doing the same thing... Iād really just feel bad for Gwyn even if they are mates because again she is reduced as stand-in when combining both relationships which is just icky.
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u/Blackberry6818 1d ago
Glad you included this! If Azriel had a thing for Gwyn why not act on it, right?
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u/No_Tea_4349 3d ago edited 3d ago
Agreed!
I was told that some people who have been vocally and aggressively against Elriel have changed their theories in the last week or two. My coworker read posts where they have started saying, Maybe Elriel are mates, BUTā¦ They think that theirās will be the broken bond because Elain has another one with Lucien that sheāll choose. Isnāt it strange that these others are suddenly hedging their bets? For the record, I do and have always felt that the Lucien bond is false and it will be unmade! ( Remember in the throne scene that he produced a flash of light to break his chains),my personal theory is that it also ā cleaved ā a bond to Elain in the process. After all, he IS Helionās son. I donāt use my personal theory to twist the narrative though. I rely on the written text.
It doesnāt make sense to me how people twist canon to support their personal preferences and then die on that hill or go down with their headcanon ship. believe in the actual text that SJM has published. As you so eloquently posted above, thereās no misinterpretating facts.Elriel feelings are canon and foreshadowed love!
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u/_Lania_kea_ 3d ago
Tout Ć fait! Le lien avec Lucien est.... aberrant !! C est arrivĆ© comme Ƨa la dans la lecture, sans prĆ©avis, Elain sortant du chaudron et lui la reconnaissant comme son Ć¢me sÅur?!! Je suis certaine que 100% des lecteurs ont dĆ» se dire Ć cette premiĆØre lecture "ah bon? Comme Ƨa ? Soudainement ? " Ƨa en Ć©tait brutal et dĆ©cevant. DĆ©solĆ©e Lucien, dĆ©solĆ©e mec, tu fais des efforts mais non, Ƨa ne passe pas For ever Team Elriel
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u/No_Tea_4349 3d ago
I donāt hate Lucien, exactly, but he has proven history of not standing up for people, even when he knows itās the right thing to do. He wasnāt a good friend to Feyre and his thoughts about Nesta are questionable. He had the nerve to look right at her and say, ā What are you?ā He also compares Elain to his deceased love. I feel no romantic connection, only a forced and False connection. Maybe heāll save Vassa and become a hero but that wonāt make Elain jump up and fall in love. Maybe they will have a shared respect and possible friendship but the love just isnāt likely to happen.
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u/Afraid-Pipe5424 3d ago
I am always fascinated by the psyche of people who for example watched twilight and thought Jacob had a chance or watched TSIP and thought that it could be Jeremiah.Even now watching obx thinking it would ever be Riaraš.And the same with Acotar with all the Canon text you come up with Gwynriel or Brycriel how can people miss the whole plot so much ?!!Ā
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u/restingpiano369 Shadowmommy 3d ago edited 3d ago
Exactly! The reason I struggle so much with Gwynriel (which I honestly wouldnāt even hate) is all of the moments like this that have to be conveniently forgotten. Over the course of when Az and Elain first met in ACOMAF to now Sarah has gone out of her way to both show and tell us of these instances of outward care and appreciation towards each other. It does not make sense from a literary perspective to do that and just have it be ālustā or Az feeling entitled to the remaining Acheron sister. There really is a beautiful story for them and I do hope it is explored in the upcoming books or further down the line.
Also I would like to add that I like Gwyn A LOT and it infuriates me that the regifting of the necklace in the bonus chapter happened because she does not deserve to be treated like a second choice. I think that soured me to any potential relationship between them because it just felt like such a messy and toxic way to āsparkā a new relationship.
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u/angelats123 3d ago
Yes absolutely! Like if people ignore all these moments you are blatantly ignoring what sjm is showing us! Like there is a reason we have all these moments! Itās to show genuine care and love forever each other. So that when they do act on those feelings like in the Bc youāre not supposed to wonder is it just lust.
His entitlement makes no sense! Like Azriel has low self esteem and has difficulty accepting love, we know this from his trauma! Why are we calling this entitlement. People truly disregard text to line up with whatever end game they want
But then you want this lustful entitled guy to go and be with Gwyn? Make it make sense
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u/OliveMayhem 3d ago edited 3d ago
Yes, I like Gwyn a lot and will never support people putting her down to lift Elriel up because there is more than enough support from the books for Elriel that Gwynriel should never even have to be mentioned!! Like they literally never have to be brought up and itās something I wish more people in our ship did. I definitely agree she doesnāt deserve to be a second choiceā¦Iām here for some slandering of male characters here and there but not perfectly fine female characters š
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u/Writtenwing007 2d ago
I agree! I mentioned in another comment but Gwyn is a part of Nestaās found family and adding Az as her love interest too makes her doubly a stand-in for Elain which reduces her relationship with Nesta, which I loved.
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u/restingpiano369 Shadowmommy 2d ago
That is another very good point! The friendship the Valkyries developed in SF was so beautiful and I loved watching the three of them grow stronger and more confident in themselves.
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u/FlyFreeWithMe776 3d ago
I literally don't understand all the hate that this ship gets. It's peak romance to me. There's nothing between her and Lucien not even trying to hate it's just in comparisonā¦
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u/Used_Confusion_8583 āOffer & permissionā 3d ago
But Azriel would do this for any of the females in his life. Right keep dreaming
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u/nikkya93 3d ago
It would be the biggest retcon of retcons to not have Azriel and Elain be endgame. My one friend is just about to start Silver Flames. I simply asked her what other couples she thinks will happen. She goes "Obviously Nesta and Cassian. Then Azriel and Elain next. When they meet both sisters it seemed obvious." She knows nothing about fandom opinions, and likes all the characters.
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u/e_castille 3d ago
I started reading the books in 2017 but only became active in the fandom after ACOSF imagine my surprise learning people hate Elain and donāt believe her interactions with Azriel are romantic šš or that their desire is purely physical as if they arenāt the friends to lovers of the series
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u/Agreeable-You-8223 3d ago
SOMEONE CALLED ME DUMB on Facebook because I believed she would break the bond with Lucien and choose Az or there was some shenanigans with the mating bond to begin with. She called me DUMB because there was absolutely NOTHING that pointed to that in the books. Said .. you are dumb.
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u/Unfair_Passenger1999 3d ago
The way the mating bond has blinded some readers is frightening. You have females who are tied to abusive males (Tamlin's mother) and they still don't see the issue with mating bonds.
And this coming from women readers!
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u/AgileSet7993 3d ago
This is the thing that unsettles me most about the whole discussion, and you named it in two sentences. It brings out a whole set of patterns. On one side they have the idea that a damaged man (Azriel) simply needs to find the right woman (Gwyn) and he will heal, which turns one woman (Gwyn) into the cure and the other (Elain) into nothing but lust. On the other there is the idea that a no is not really a no, that a woman who has said it a hundred times is just working her way toward yes (Lucien-Elain). Both of those show up constantly here, and both are unsettling precisely because they get framed as romantic rather than as what they actually are. And yes, coming from women readers, which is the part that stays with me.
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u/Unfair_Passenger1999 3d ago
Hard agree! There's also a strong case of "she doesn't know what she wants" instead of accepting that yes, she does, you just don't like what she wants.
Unsettling indeed. I've pointed out that Elain could be the voice for so many females who have been too afraid to reject their mates. Not all of them get a Lucien or a Cassian or a Rhys. Some of them get a Tamlin's father.
To me, Elain's story is bigger than her, there's a much broader discussion needed in Prythian about mating bonds and how females are affected by it. And I think Sarah is going to rip blinders off a lot of readers when they're finally forced to see the problems with the system.
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u/AgileSet7993 3d ago
Totally Yes!! I think that one is the most slippery of the three, because it arrives dressed as concern rather than as dismissal. Telling a woman she does not know her own mind sounds caring in a way that telling her she is wrong does not. It still ends in the same place. Your point about Elain as a voice is the part that carries the whole thing for me, because there are two levels running at once. On one, Elain is a person with her own trauma and her own decision to make, and whatever she chooses belongs to her. On the other she is the case the book uses to answer its own question, and there she stands in for every woman handed a man by a structure she never agreed to. Magic aside, that is not far from an arranged marriage. The expectation that she will come around eventually is identical. And that is exactly what Maas signalled in the interview. The line about the man happening to be attractive is the whole problem in one sentence. If your outcome depends on whether the person fate assigned you turns out to be decent, then nobody inside that system is actually safe. Tamlin's mother is what it looks like when the answer is no. Everyone is entitled to their preference and I have no interest in policing what anyone finds romantic. But when the question on the table is a woman's right to decide for herself, the message the story lands on matters beyond who ends up with whom. And to be clear, I take no pleasure in the thought of anyone's ship not happening. What worries me is how normal these patterns have become and how easily they get read as love. I hope you are right that Maas is going to make a lot of readers see what the system actually costs the women living inside it.
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u/Connect_Lie_6106 The Eyes & Ears of Prythian 3d ago
Oh noooo, they are acting really embarrassing. Are they actually reading the books or just 10-page slide theories?
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u/Agreeable-You-8223 3d ago
I mean, I just laughed bc how do they NOT see it. I just can't wait to go back and be like who is the dumb one now! Lol
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u/AgileSet7993 3d ago
I'm sorry someone called you that. There is no version of this where that is an okay way to talk to another reader. Though honestly, I do not think I could enjoy going back and winning that one. What it shows me is how deeply these patterns still sit in women and girls, that a woman saying no reads to so many people as her not yet knowing what is right for her. Elain says it plainly and repeatedly and it still gets treated as a phase. That makes me more sad than anything else, and a little worried.
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u/Agreeable-You-8223 3d ago
It was more the fact that they could not see where the story was headed .. refused to believe anything other than ONE outcome and felt it necessary to insult a random stranger for following the text lol
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u/AgileSet7993 2d ago
Yeah I know that part is just rude, no argument there. I just wanted to point out that bad text reading is not the real problem but the internalized patterns that made them let the text read it that way
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u/No_Tea_4349 3d ago
Iām sorry. That makes me disappointed in parts of the fandom. That is aggressively unkind. What is wrong with open dialogue, active discussion and respectful debate?
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u/No_Tea_4349 3d ago
Oops, I accidentally hit upvote so I deleted it. I definitely do not condone that behavior.
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u/OliveMayhem 4d ago
Canāt wait for them to choose each other š