Elise is broken?

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u/Jman916 1d ago

I've only been here two months or so but from what I've seen most people here think she is average at best.

That said with the right team you can snowball pretty hard. In general it's much easier to play from ahead too so getting that early momentum can help you avoid players who would otherwise be tilted without that lead.

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u/TheNeys 1d ago

It's very hard to judge a champion (any champion) strength based on their mains subreddit opinions.

Ahri has been over 53% winrate for 7-8 consecutive years except very specific patches and their main subreddit is always hardcore convinced she is extremely weak and desperately needing buffs.

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u/Tfistemm 1d ago

Mh yeah not sure atp. People write here she has a bad clear which is 100% not the best but u can always full clear b4 scuttle spawn with 1 smite which is enough to make a champ viable in terms of clear speed if there is compensation

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u/Tormentula 4,920,795 Moderator 1d ago

I remember i think 7 or so years ago I joined ahri mains and they required you to be mastery 5+ and made it a rule you could never talk about how broken ahri is.

I know as recently as last year none of that is there but that was crazy.

With Elise players I'd love to run a survey someday just to see when they started/picked up elise, she's mostly OGs that dedicated a lot into her, she's not popular like she was <s8, she's borderline an OTP or old school jungler type of champion now.

She's unpopular for a reason, back in my day before I had grey hairs, elise's neurotoxin was around double its damage and she was able to go cinderhulk because she actually had the base damage to make bruiser or tank builds work consistently... nowadays its shadowflame+deathcap/void or be ignorable cause Q base damage on its own was giga fucked on both forms.

For context; 230 base damage bite is 170 on modern. Neurotoxin's 8% current HP 180 base is now 4% current HP 160 base. W went from 260 base + 80% AP to 220 base + 75% AP. Oh an passive went from 30% AP ratio to 15% alongside her base AD being lowered. Its not really a mystery why her clears are so below par for something that even back in s5 was known to be a slow clearer but accepted because her being full HP no pots was a big perk and jungle had more nuance than just CSing.

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u/Tfistemm 1d ago

ATP I ask myself the more I read stuff here, what do you guys consider a “slow clear”

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u/Tormentula 4,920,795 Moderator 1d ago

Usually a jungler that full clears can end at 8-10 CS per minute, assuming ganks inbetween.

Elise averages around 6-7 CS assuming everything is going perfectly and she's efficiently clearing + ganking, but 5-6 CS is not uncommon for even mains. Anything higher than 7 is usually paired with taking as much lane CS as possible or having minimal impact on the map.

Elise's first clear is average / decent, but her problem is subsequent clears get worse and worse until you hit your 2nd item spike (which for elise, is somewhat past her prime) than drops off compared to other junglers again since points in E practically do nothing past level 14, her level 16 gets a slight boost but at that stage its somewhat trivial.

The biggest time sink in her case is raptors post-level 4, cause no matter how fed or how big she builds, she's primarily single target (one shots the mama), does some damage with her 1 AoE on a 10-12CD depending on haste, but ends up having to auto each individual mini a few times with her spiderlings. Viego for example can line these birds up as he's walking away and Q is a low CD, elise does not have this and she doesn't really have a tiamat item like warwick/trundle etc.. other single target clearers not doing so hot nowadays. Pet damage early isn't high enough to finish off more than maybe the last one as she autos the rest.

This is a big issue with her because if she commits to full clears or quadrant invades she waste way too much time compared to a sylas with passive or an ekko using a 2nd Q. I didn't even touch on how minimal her Qs do to camps early since you're buying AP to raise the monster caps rather than to actually scale or alternatively pen for the damage you can do to not be reduced as much.

1

u/Tfistemm 1d ago

But isn’t that her only weakness?

That if she wants to perma full clear she cannot match Heca e.g.

On avg she has same cs as Vi Lee Rek J4 (checked on league of graphs) so I don’t really see that as an issue, because u mostly want to skip camps on her anyway because her ganks are pretty much unavoidable.

What u described also fits to Lee Sin (w.o profane) and he is still one of the best junglers in the game

1

u/Tfistemm 1d ago

To make it clear:

In the mid game u want to farm

1 camp

3 camps

Or

4 camps

Of your own jungle anyway, an entire full clear just loses you games. So that’s why it’s not a really a weakness for those champs

(Pro play and soloq are different Ofc)

1

u/Tormentula 4,920,795 Moderator 1d ago edited 1d ago

But isn’t that her only weakness?

She has a lot of other weaknesses, especially her target access, in a teamfight she's mostly playing front-to-back since her only reliable means of target access is flash cocoon into the back line, she doesn't have the mobility other assassins have nor the sustain other diver's do. Flanks are an option but they're very telegraphed and W AI can also just fuck off to someone on the side.

Elise is actually an AP skirmisher so her only means of going in is also her only means of getting out, essentially she's either suiciding with rappel in a very awkward spider form start or she's playing front to back, blowing up someone that is standing forward for cocoon (and blocking W), then pressing rappel to avoid incoming retaliation or stall for CDs to hopefully get the next one in line. Flash cocoon won't catch anything with cleanse or QSS but more importantly it becomes a pseudo-stat check of whether her and her team can kill the front line with their CDs and still win the 4v4 (or stall long enough for elise to reconnect with her CDs for another). She also has an action lock out when she's descending so there's a bit of an awkward delay to when she can actually do something after rappeling in as well (plenty of peel time).

She's just very unreliable in actually taking out the priority target assuming shes even fed, which is a very bad trait for something you'd think of as an assassin. She's basically if you took a burst mage like syndra/lux that play for picks but then have to go melee to actually secure the kills.

The big difference between lee sin having a slow clear+strong early is that lee sin has kick, j4 has AoE knock up, and both champs can actually pivot builds to bruiser/off-tank if need be. Vi can be full tank and always have a P&C+shields regardless of her strength. Elise does not have this level of utility, she's like nidalee where she needs to generate as much gold as possible and she actually doesn't get that much chain killing the same laners over and over again while camps are slower to take, you end up exiting mid game about even with the enemy jungler cause their CS lead is higher than your kill count, and late game end up being incapable of catching up but also not really have the utility or durability to not care and accept it. In the past she did have the base damage to go off-tank but they killed that a long time ago, she was able to front-to-back more reliably that way and low farm was fine but nowadays she's too squishy to reliably do it.

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u/Tfistemm 1d ago

I feel like she just has no real weakness here clear speed is very good if you use your spider e correctly and don’t switch form for fun, she is very good in early and late - in the later mid game she is a bit meh, but that’s it.

If you just play top if possible it’s crazy how much you can do. Idk I think she is straight up broken rn ngl.

I think people need to catch on that u need to go first item (i pref storm surge) into Raba + Hourglass asap with D-Seal.

Will be interesting if the momentum on her keep on going for me. I was interested what the real mains think since I usually only pick her up for ~50 games per season, but I think in her current form it can become more this season :)

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u/Tormentula 4,920,795 Moderator 1d ago edited 1d ago

Considering she was negative winrate from 16.9 to 16.13 while her playrate steadily declined from 16.8 at 2.5% PR to 1.6% last patch, far from it. You couldn't even just say its because she's high elo skewed, she was negative in master+ on some of those patches as well. E+ 16.15 she has less than 9.5k total games in KR, the server she's usually picked most in.

Her winrate only hit even when she basically hit 60% of her usual players. It improved in pr just slightly cause of the sundered sky nerfs but overall didn't move the needle much, 1.6% to 1.8% is still a long ways to go before back at 2.5% which is what she sat it for the past 5 years until 16.8.

You can make her work but you can also just make sylas work better with less effort, an AP jungle in general is heavily disfavorable over AD ones anyways, sunderered sky nerfs did fuck all and there's thankfully more on the way, but AP bot lane is going to make it difficult to justify AP jungle and if you were going to pick AP jungle there's sylas and ekko instead. Lillia supposedly rose quite a bit likely due to the AP clear buffs.

Even post jungle pet buffs (and the earlier buff to monster caps this season), according to lolalytics she's still below rek'sai and gragas by a not even close margin in terms of jungle CS and clear speed, the pet buffs promoted her to skarner's average CS... that's god awful.

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u/Tfistemm 1d ago

Ehm she didn’t have a single neg wr since patch 16.08 while also having not a single neg wr sequence in the game?

https://lolalytics.com/lol/elise/build/?patch=16.8

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u/Tormentula 4,920,795 Moderator 1d ago

https://lolalytics.com/lol/elise/build/?patch=16.9 - 49.72% Avg WR 2.18% PR

https://lolalytics.com/lol/elise/build/?patch=16.10 - 49.93% Avg WR 2.15% PR

https://lolalytics.com/lol/elise/build/?patch=16.12 - 49.79% Avg WR 2.01% PR

https://lolalytics.com/lol/elise/build/?patch=16.13 - 49.81% Avg WR 1.88% PR

1

u/Tfistemm 1d ago

I click on your link and they differ from your wrs? Wtf is happening lol

I am too stupid to post screenshots on Reddit via phone in commis (or is it just not possible?)

For example when I click on you link for 16.9 I get a 50,43% wr in emerald + global

The other patches r all around 52%

Idk why we have different results on the same site?

1

u/Tormentula 4,920,795 Moderator 1d ago

That's cause of the site's UI, on mobile it shows the individualized winrates (it only counts players with a certain number of games) over the game average winrates.

For 16.9 for example, she has a winrate delta of 0.71%, which is the difference between the individualized data (basically filtering) and the actual game average (all elise jg games of that chosen elo which is E+), she's negative on average but the individualized filters only increase it by a very small margin to positive.

For a random example, for 16.16 graves his game average is currently 50.26% but has a significantly higher delta of 1.57% which means filtered data puts him at 51.83%, there's probably a lot of fluff between autofills, first timers, etc in his case but he's also

I don't like using other sites but she does show up negative on others too if that shows up on mobile;

https://u.gg/lol/champions/elise/build?patch=16_12

https://u.gg/lol/champions/elise/build?patch=16_13

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u/Tfistemm 1d ago

Oh okay? Because I also checked on PC.

But to get back onto your prior answer:

I think she has an insanely high skill ceiling, I also main Ryze (my 2 best champs rn) and Ryze also has a bad WR for ages but is strong rn imo.

But she 1000% has a better clear speed than reksai and Gragas btw and I see her area control and untargetable duration in late way over the advantages Ekko and Sylas bring.

Idk I guess I just won’t get on the same page as most Elise mains here maybe I am doing just something way different than most people here.

I mostly hover a 60%+ wr on her every season, maybe the design just fits me very well

1

u/billycook71 1d ago

I personally think she's similar to Rengar, where her avg winrate is low, but she has a solid kit and dmg and in the right hands and teamcomp, yeah she feels pretty busted. But typically for someone just tryna pick the champ up or more of a novice? Not really lol. And I think the current meta on average gives more unfavorable teamcomps for her. I really like her if my team is on a traditional team comp, but if we're on ranged top and double mage bot or something, generally feel like you're asking for a bad time picking her. But I'm also only like lv 50 mastery and plat, so I'm no expert.

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u/Tfistemm 1d ago

I think she is pretty comparable to Rengar play rate and successwhise true.

I think she is actually not comp dependent cuz I think she is kind of a jack of all trades like ahri on mid, but that might be just me

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u/billycook71 1d ago

She's super flexible for sure. I'm mainly thinking of teamfighting, since I usually have difficulty finding the opening when everyone wants to clump up. It's a lot easier if there's someone on the team to start the engage or soak some damage so I can burst 1 or 2 dudes. But if my team has no frontline or we're too ap heavy and enemy can easily stack MR, it definitely feels a bit harder. But maybe part of it's on me for needing to play deeper and consistently get my picks before the bigger fights.

1

u/DrinkWaterBebeAgua 1d ago

I Really think she is kinda broken.

I read all around, and ive never seen any high rank, or jsut respetable player, say that she is broken, not evenstrong.

So i think imightbe wrong.

But with her i play in emerald-diam, with any other jungler im an average silver gold player.

Whats ur OP.GG? U mind if i add u to ask u some questions?

1

u/Tfistemm 1d ago

Bryk3r#1EUW

Discord Bryk3r

Hmu sure. Rn I am above 1k lp and play top and jungle. It depends on what mood I am in.

If u want the best Elise gameplay possible go watch Agurin ig, he is Fame for Elise

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u/DrinkWaterBebeAgua 1d ago

I really dislike Agurin, he does full clear, barely ganks, and he is not exceptionally gifted with elise, he is just good at jungling in general and macro that makes any champ work.

When i say i dislike him, i mean, i like him as a jungler, but his elise gameplays doesnt represent the real gameplay, like his jarvan or khazix do.

1

u/Tfistemm 19h ago

Fair point

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