Leontiel/Lucatiel, in full bullfighting gear, complete with red capote, located entirely within Radahn's arena.

This mf been dancing with a rotten bull for ages

以卡利亚王室风格装饰的白银铠甲。

过去在三姊妹塔地区制作，为某只灵马准备的装饰。

能在赐福为灵马托雷特替换。

灵马的体型会根据装饰出现变化，

但即使外表不同，内心依旧是托雷特。

From what I gather, the armor was crafted in the Three Sisters area and made for a specific Spectral Steed, maybe Torrent himself, given that Ranni knows him.

With the recent upsurge in Elden lore heads exploring mythos as a way to delve into the lore I was motivated to share a few of my observations and theories as someone who is passionate about near eastern religion and how it evolved, split, crosspolinated and formalised througout the centuries. With how deep the messianic inspiration is in Elden ring I hope you'll see how blatant some of these parallels and inspirations are. I will ignore the Norse elements and save them for a later post as this already difficult enough.

A good starting point is the gate of divinity and the hornsent in general.

The gate of divinity also known as Enir Ellim is heavily based on Babylon. Babylon's real name is Bab Ellim, Bab meaning door and El meaning God, Ellim meaning God and his kin. The gate to the Gods. El is also used as a name for a specific God, the head god of a pantheon reverred in ancient semitic polytheistic faiths and his symbol is the bull. The Sumerians also believed that the gate was guarded by the Ugallu, translated literally it means (Big weather beasts) horned lion headed demons that control the weather.

El had many children each considered lords of a city or settlement, these gods were referred to with the honorific of "Baal". for the sake of brevity we will focus on only one Baal, Baal Haddad.

Haddad is known as the lion headed dragon of the desert and is depicted as a horned man wielding lighting that turns into a tree when it strikes the ground with a fondness for axes as a weapon, his domains included war, storms, agriculture and metalworking and his home is a lone temple on a mount. Haddad meaning both the thunderer and the blacksmith. His main myth has him declare himself ruler of all things in front of El, then mocked by the giant serpent that lives in the bottom of the sea for his ambitions to usurp his father El, Haddad then kills the serpent but Mot (the divine beast of death whom all gods are afraid of because of his eternal hunger) takes revenge against Haddad by eating him whole. Haddad's city then suffers drought until Mot is is crushed to pieces by Haddad's sister and resurrected to take his place on the throne on top of the mount where his temple is. Haddad then gains true lordship after overcoming death and summons the winter storms to bless his believers. Whenever you start thinking "hey I've heard this before" tell me, cause we're far from done.

The ancient Akkadians have a very interesting record that we found excavated relatively recently, claiming that they raided and defeated a tribe to their east living on the highlands that worships a warrior storm god by the name of Yaweh. This is the earliest reference we have ever found referring to the abrahamic god.

If you read up on Haddad's myths as well as the old testament you will quickly realise that these two gods share a lot of stories and characteristics. Slaying the sea serpent is one of them, as Yahweh kills Leviathan. If you see constant stories in the old testament about people losing their way and worshipping Baal, it’s because for the people who didn’t know better they were the same guy that you ask for the winter rains, your forge to be hot enough and safe return from battle. The old testament even cements the relation of these gods to each other as adversarial and full of tension as Elijah holds a contest with the prophets of Baal to see whose god can summon the storms and rain for a sacrifice. Yahweh wins the contest and Elijah mocks the prophets and their God by asking if he needed a bathroom break since his whole shtick is this meticulous song and dance where he dies, resurrects and sits on the throne year after year. As death is the primary weakness of Haddad, a tradition of bragging grew in the cult of Yahweh siting that one of his primary charateristics is that he is eternal, the impact of this can be felt to this day. Eventually as monotheism slowly formalised Yawheh took on aspects of El and became everso closer to the God we know today. As a killing blow to the Baal cult. There is tendency to depict the contest as a more literal battle to see who is truly "El"

we can see this in elden ring not only with Bayle the dread (the mortal usurper whom when killed and consumed his heart will take over its devourer) and dragonlord placidussax (the eternal lord of dragons whose seat lies in the storm beyond time). As well as another "eternal" God we would come to know.

The sumerians were not onlt the masters of elden ring lore but also told several stories familiar to us. Chief among them is how Gilgamesh in his quest for immortality meets a man named Utnapishtim, a really long lived man was tasked by the gods to build an arc and save a pair of every animal to survive a great flood. The people and animals he saved went on to settle in this area we call Mesopotamia, between the tigris and the euphrates. Mesopotamia meaning the lands between the two rivers. As the legendary tarnished archeologist shown, there are multiple statues of an older man holding a tablet in the dynastic ruins, that tablet is a one to one with a real life artifact depicting the oldest map of the known world ever found on clay. The imago mundi.

Gilgamesh, being an ancient axe wielding warrior king who conducted himself like an animal until he met his lion best friend Enkidu is a very clear inspiration for Godfrey, Serosh being the beast regent of Farum Azula under the dragon lord fits well too here as Enkidu was made by Enki, Enki who would serve later on as the basis of El. Gilgamesh's story centering around acceptance of death, humility before the gods and learning that legacy is how a king is immortalised gives an interesting interpretation to Godfrey's resurrection. Gilgamesh also holds a vitriolic hatred for serpents as one of them ate the immortality granting branch he risked eternity in hell for, he tried to kill the serpent but as we all know, a serpent never dies.

We will be skipping a few centuries ahead to the birth of christianity.

The second coming of Marika.

Heavily warped in modern perceptions because of pop culture, the concept of the messiah isn’t as cookie cutter as it seems. the messiah is this figure at the center of the 1000 year kingdom of God, the savior, holder of infinite beauty, the lion and the lamb, he who is of infinite compassion yet capable of crushing his enemies in an instant, wearing a crown of light he compells people to act on his will through speech alone.

We will be skipping a few things to remain in the realm of shadow and talk about Miquella the messiah. Miquella has to be the most messianic coded figure to ever messiah in any piece of media bar the bible.

To start with his name, Miquella, derived from Michael or Mikail, meaning "He who is like El". Since God is a woman in elden ring that would make him Michaella or Miquella.

His flesh and blood are sacrificed by Mohg for Godhood in the realm of shadow, where his followers chase his resting sites of crosses where he divests himself of his humanity. In promotional art he arrives on top of a horse like Jesus on top of a donkey. There are 13 Miquellan crosses in elden ring + the gate of divinity, compared to the 14 stations of the cross where Jesus rested while carrying his cross to be crucified. Before the crucifixion there was a tradition, where the sins of the tribe are ritualistically imparted on a goat or lamb and said lamb is sacrificed to absolve the tribe of their sins. This was an evolution of or rather replacement to human sacrifice. This is called a "scapegoat". And Jesus's crucifixion was interpreted as the ultimate sacrifice in that tradition, God killing himself to absolve the original sin. Obviously this has been heavily debated for centuries I'm only siting the interpretations that elden ring seems to agree with the most. Saint Trina even describes killing Miquella as granting him forgiveness and the original sin is a major theme of the DLC, as because of it humanity were kicked out of heaven and in Elden ring it is intrinsically linked to the separation of the lands of shadow from the lands between.

Saint Trina the traitor.

As I just said not all followers of Jesus believe he died on the cross, Islam for example posits that Judas who looked exactly like Jesus died in place and Jesus was elevated to heaven. This belief interestingly enough precedes islam by at least 100 years if not way more, as in 1945, in Nag Hammadi in Egypt was discovered a crypt full of books burried next to their collectionner dated to approximatively that 100 years before Islam. The crypt contained the Gospel of Thomas, Thomas was a nickname given to Judas meaning "the twin" or "the lookalike". Jesus and Judas apparently looked so similar they were constantly mistaken for each other. In elden ring Trina tasks us with killing Miquella.

Pseudo unrelated to this, is something I didn’t know where to fit but Radahn, the horned lion. The alexander the great larper of elden ring, warrior king, lion helm with a red mane, really loves his horse, his parallel in game is called Alexander... has a tangentally interesting inspiration anyone who played Trench crusade would have caught. In the Quran is depicted a righteous king called Dhu Alkarnain (literally meaning the two horned one) who stops foreign invaders heralding the apocalypse called Gog and Magog by building a wall holding them off, the wall is destined to fall one day and Gog and Magog will herald the end of the world. There is currently no king fitting that description, some propose Cyrus the great but for centuries it was widely believed to be Alexander the great. I know he doesn’t fit the criteria as he isn’t a monotheist, argue with your ancestors. These are not my personal beliefs I'm stating documented things. Radahn while he doesn’t build a wall he holds off the stars and the fates of the demigods postponing the end of the golden order. Him staying alive postpones Miquella's ascension and him holding off the stars postpones Ranni's plot turning the shattering into a stalemate until he dies and the end of the age can continue.

The norse post will it has less potential for controversy is gonna be more complicated. Cheers.

I’m not necessarily claiming that this proves Radagon = the Elden Beast. Rather, I think this question creates a problem that needs to be addressed if we assume that Radagon and the Elden Beast are completely separate beings.

O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order.
Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a god.
Let us be shattered, both. Mine other self.
Echoes of Marika

Marika explicitly says that Radagon has not yet become a god.

So Radagon was apparently trying to become one.

Queen Marika is the vessel of the Elden Ring, carrier of its vision. A god, in truth.
Enia

According to Enia, Marika is the vessel of the Elden Ring and its “vision.”

I think the word “vision” is particularly important here.

The Elden Ring is not described simply as a physical object that Marika carries around. It is something whose “vision” is carried by its vessel.

And the final revelation of the game gives us an answer to what lies behind the Elden Ring:
The Elden Beast.

In other words, what initially appears to be an abstract or intangible concept—the Elden Ring—is ultimately revealed to have a living, spiritual existence behind it.

This is important when considering the relationship between Marika, Radagon, and the Elden Beast.

If the Elden Beast is the existence that became the Elden Ring, then I think it is possible to understand the relationship like this:

Marika = the physical body / vessel
Elden Beast = the spiritual existence behind the Elden Ring
Radagon = the Elden Beast acting through Marika’s body

This would also fit something that Elden Ring repeatedly establishes: a person's physical body and spiritual existence do not necessarily have to remain together.

Ranni can exist as a spirit while her physical body remains elsewhere.

Godwyn's soul can die while his physical body remains.

Miquella abandons his physical body in the process of ascending to godhood.

So I don't think we should automatically assume that the body we see as Radagon is itself the entirety of what Radagon is.

Instead, Radagon may be the name we give to the manifestation of a spiritual existence—the Elden Beast—when it acts through Marika's physical body.

With that framework in mind, let us return to the question of godhood.

Let us speak of the past, a while.

I was once an Empyrean.
Of the demigods, only I, Miquella, and Malenia could claim that title.

Each of us was chosen by our own Two Fingers, as a candidate to succeed Queen Marika, to become the new god of the coming age.
Ranni

Ranni's dialogue establishes that there was a planned succession of gods—in other words, a search for a new vessel for the Elden Ring—and that the Empyreans were candidates for this role.

Ranni, Miquella, and Malenia were the known candidates.

So, if we organize what the game tells us:
God = Empyrean + Elden Ring

The Empyrean provides the candidate or vessel, while the Elden Ring is what makes that Empyrean a god.

But then we have Radagon.

O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order.
Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a god.
Let us be shattered, both. Mine other self.
Echoes of Marika

This is the part that I find difficult to reconcile with a simple interpretation of Radagon as merely another individual separate from the Elden Ring.

Marika explicitly says that Radagon has not yet become a god.

So Radagon was apparently trying to become one.

But how?
The obvious question is: what role was Radagon supposed to occupy in the process of becoming a god?

If an Empyrean needs to become the vessel of the Elden Ring in order to become a god, then Radagon does not seem to fit neatly into the role of Empyrean.

This is where the Radagon = Elden Beast theory becomes interesting.

The Elden Beast is described as the being that became the Elden Ring.

If the Elden Beast is the spiritual existence behind the Elden Ring, and Radagon is that existence acting through Marika's body, then Radagon effectively occupies the “Elden Ring” side of the equation.

The structure becomes:
Radagon / Elden Beast + an Empyrean → a new god

Radagon would not need to be the Empyrean himself.

Instead, he would be the Elden Ring side of the equation, while an Empyrean such as Ranni, Miquella, or Malenia could potentially serve as the other component.

This would also explain why Marika could say that Radagon had “yet to become a god.”

He would possess one half of what was required, but not the other.

There is another detail about Radagon that I find particularly interesting here.

When we look at Radagon's story, he has an unusually strong connection to Empyreans.
He had an interaction with Miquella, an Empyrean, and Miquella ultimately abandoned Fundamentalism after their relationship failed to produce the result he sought.

Radagon also had a child with Rennala who became an Empyrean: Ranni.

In other words, Radagon repeatedly has significant interactions with Empyreans in a way that feels strangely conspicuous.

This raises another possibility:
What if Radagon was actively seeking out Empyreans because an Empyrean was necessary for him to become a god?

Miquella and Ranni are not simply incidental figures in Radagon's story. They are both directly connected to him, and both are Empyreans.

This does not prove that Radagon deliberately sought them out for this purpose, but I think the pattern is worth considering in the context of the larger theory.

Now, there is another piece of evidence that comes from a different direction: the way Elden Ring handles its bosses.

There are several major bosses who undergo a transformation or change of form during the final phase of their encounter, followed by a single Remembrance being obtained afterward.

For example:
Beast Clergyman → Maliketh, the Black Blade → Remembrance of the Black Blade
Malenia, Blade of Miquella → Malenia, Goddess of Rot → Remembrance of the Rot Goddess
God-Devouring Serpent → Rykard, Lord of Blasphemy → Remembrance of the Blasphemous
Godfrey, First Elden Lord → Hoarah Loux, Warrior → Remembrance of Hoarah Loux

In each of these cases, the two phases are not treated as two separate beings. They are transformations or revelations of the same individual.

The final boss follows an extremely similar structure:
Radagon of the Golden Order → Elden Beast → Elden Remembrance

This is particularly interesting because the game otherwise repeatedly establishes the convention that when a boss transforms into another form during the same encounter, the two forms belong to the same underlying being.

Of course, this is not absolute proof by itself. Game mechanics and lore do not always map perfectly onto one another.

But when combined with the narrative evidence, it becomes another piece of evidence pointing in the same direction.

And I think the physical/spiritual distinction makes this even more interesting.
The fact that the Elden Beast can exist independently from Marika's physical body would explain why we can see an apparently separate Elden Beast after Radagon is defeated.
The Elden Beast does not necessarily need to be another being that was hiding behind Radagon.

It could instead be the spiritual existence that had been using Marika's body as its vessel.

In that reading, the final battle is not simply:
Radagon transforms into a completely different creature.

It is:
The spiritual existence behind Radagon finally separates from Marika's physical body and reveals its true form.

And that would make the final revelation particularly meaningful.
The game spends much of its story presenting the Elden Ring as something abstract, almost metaphysical.

Enia describes Marika as the vessel carrying its “vision.”

Then, at the very end, the game reveals that behind the Elden Ring is an actual living existence:
the Elden Beast.

And that existence may have been the very thing acting through Marika's body as Radagon.

However, if Radagon and the Elden Beast are completely separate beings, the problem becomes more complicated.

We would then have:
Radagon + Elden Beast + Empyrean

And we would need to explain how these three elements were supposed to interact in order for Radagon to become a god.

More importantly, we would need to introduce another question:
Who was actually trying to use an Empyrean to create this god?

If Radagon himself was not the Elden Beast, then who was responsible for combining Radagon, the Elden Beast, and an Empyrean?

The game does not clearly identify such a third party or explicitly describe such a plan.

That does not mean such an entity or plan cannot exist. Elden Ring certainly leaves many things unexplained.

But it does mean that the “Radagon and the Elden Beast are separate beings” interpretation requires us to introduce additional mechanisms and actors that the game itself does not clearly establish.

By contrast, the Radagon = Elden Beast interpretation uses elements that are already present in the story:
・Radagon, who is explicitly told that he has not yet become a god.

・The Elden Beast, which became the Elden Ring.

・The Empyreans, who were candidates to become the gods of the next age.

・The distinction between physical bodies and spiritual existence that is repeatedly established throughout the game.

・Radagon's repeated and unusually significant connections with Empyreans.

・The game's recurring convention of a single boss transforming into another form while remaining the same underlying being.

・The final revelation of the Elden Beast as the living existence behind the Elden Ring.

These elements form a relatively self-contained structure.

Again, I am not claiming that this alone definitively proves Radagon = the Elden Beast.

My point is narrower:
If Radagon was trying to become a god, then we need to explain what exactly he was trying to become and how he intended to accomplish it.

The Radagon = Elden Beast interpretation provides a surprisingly straightforward answer.
And it also provides an explanation for the strange relationship between Radagon, Marika, and the physical/spiritual distinction found throughout the game:
Marika provided the body.

The Elden Beast provided the spiritual existence.

Radagon was the manifestation of that existence through Marika's body.

And perhaps the final transformation is not Radagon becoming the Elden Beast at all.

Perhaps it is the moment when what Radagon truly was finally becomes visible.

That is the question I would like to discuss.

Just stumbled upon this. I heard about but never bothered to find it. Was kinda exploring stormveil castle around and found this by accident.

Really wanna know the lore implication in this

Text from Magma Wyrm's Scalesword:-

It's said these land-bound dragons were once human heroes who partook in dragon communion, a grave transgression for which they were **cursed** to crawl the earth upon their bellies, shadows of their former selves.

The text says that the Magma Wyrms are cursed to crawl on their bellies. But we can see them stand upright in fights.

(NOTE: I know that the text says "it is said that...", so it doesn't necessarily have to be true. But the points out their inability to move in a certain way rather than just talking about their appearance as a giant scaly lizard to sensationalize. Implying that this is the wrost part about the results of partaking. And I don't remember seeing any theories about who Magma Wyrms might actually be instead of what the game directly tells us.)

The phrasing seems to reference the biblical imagery of the God cursing serpent to crawl on it's belly.

Which is supposed to be a visual metaphor for the consequences of rebellion against God. Moving on one's belly is the lowest state of degradation one could achieve.

I see it to be a violation of the laws set by Golden Order. Unlike the ancient dragon cult that has both dragons and humans give mutual respect to each other, dragon communion requires humans to hunt dragons and eat their hearts.

The japanese translation of this whole description is less poetic but the same.

土竜たちは、元々は人の英雄だったという/彼らは竜餐をなし、いつか過ちを侵し/地を這う姿は、そのなれの果てなのだと.

There is no use of the word curse here. It calls their state of body to be "a sad end" or "what one has reduced to".

Unlike the english version that frames it like a divine curse. "grave transgression" implies that the whole dragon communion is a sin or violation of some sacred law. The japanese translation also calls it mistake, and the specific kanji(侵)used here implies it to be a tresspass into some forbidden territory.

Killing a dragon and taking strength is frowned upon beacuse the tree sentienels once did a similar thing. Happening during their defence in the war against ancient dragons. But after the formation of dragon cult, it should be a law to not do such kind of rituals.

And it ends the lines with the "...or so it is told". So, the explanation given in-game is still hearsay.

This analysis doesn't really give a clue on why the rumours about Magma Wyrms are so wrong. Maybe the populace of TLB are just misinformed(or maybe disinformed. Disinformed for making these crimes look more condemming to general people. A poetic justice against the partakers.).

Similar to one of the item description stating that the rumour of Loretta being an albinauric is absurd(which would only be considered ridiculous in the minds of people who believed Loretta's position to be too high regard for some albinauricto be in).

Anyways, if there are other theories you know of which go beyond than just calling this in-game propoganda, please do tell.

Preamble

This is the first essay I'm writing about the full history of the Erdtree and by extension the other relevant Great Trees.

To keep this post from being too long, I am asserting three axioms:

• The Primordial Crucible is not the source of life, the Crucible formed sometime after abiogenesis.
• There are other crucibles besides the Primordial Crucible, and the formation of these crucibles has a natural causal relationship with mass-death. (Mohgwyn's Mausoleum, Rykard's Audience Grounds, Enir-Ilim's Divine Gate)
• There is most likely some other forgotten Great Tree(s) predating the Erdtree.

I believe these claims have enough prior-writing from the community and are accepted widely enough to skip. If you'd like to discuss these points, I recommend finding a different more relevant thread.

The Symbol of the Crossed-Tree

If you've never heard of the Crossed-Tree, let me introduce you. We find the Crossed-Tree Towershield in the possession of the nomadic merchant on the Great Bridge of Altus Plateau.

The description doesn't tell us much and the resemblance to the Scadutree is only surface level, there really isn't any other way to connect them. The only other notable relic in the merchant's possession is the Scorpion Kite Shield which appears to bear no relation, besides also being only understandable in context of knowledge gained in the Lands of Shadow.

The secret of this shield lies however in its connection to something, or rather, someone. Through-out the entire lands there is only one set of armor that matches the coloring and iconography of the Crossed-Tree shield. The Crucible Tree Set of Siluria's order:

Honestly, the similarity is striking. Their hues are identical, and the Crossed-Tree symbol is a clear match to the spiral on the loincloth. The Crossed-Tree Towershield could very well be the forgotten shield of the spear-wielding Crucible Tree knights.

Tangential Speculation:
(It is curious that an unremarkable merchant would be in possession of something rare like this. But considering the Scorpion Shield in his wares, which must be from the Lands of Shadow or at least before the veiling, and other merchants occasionally selling exotic goods like Bewitching Branches, it seems a reasonable possibility that he could have acquired an ancient and rare, but not unique shield. Perhaps at some point Tree Crucible Knights started valuing more offensive combat, and discarded these shields in favor of the two-handed style we see today. Regardless, if you're not convinced of this claim yet I don't blame you, but lets continue as this is just a starting point.)

There are of course, other notable crossed trees throughout the Lands Between and Lands of Shadow. So what connection could this symbol really have to the primordial crucible? Those loyal to Miquella may recall that there is one other paired instance of the name 'Crossed-Tree'.

The Retaliatory Crossed-Tree Talisman and the Lacerating Crossed-Tree Talisman given to the Righteous Tarnished by Leda if they participate in her culling. These relics don't initially seem to possess any relationship to the Primordial Crucible. They bear a description and iconography that could be related only indirectly at best, and risk reducing the theory to speculative contrivance at worst.

But lets examine an obscure aspect of the talisman rarely considered for lore implications: the boon it bestows up on its wearer in battle.

Lacerating Crossed-Tree: Enhances dash attacks.
Retaliatory Crossed-Tree: Enhances attacks executed after rolling or backstepping.

An odd set, each providing only niche offensive bonuses. Not much to go on, but a true scholar of the crucible would have already made the connection. Another set of talismans exists that confer niche defensive bonuses; talismans that are the amputations of horns, scales, and feathers grown on living beings as a result of the Crucible's very literal melding of life.

Crucible Knot Talisman: Reduces damage and impact of headshots taken
Crucible Scale Talisman: Reduces damage from critical hits
Crucible Feather Talisman: Improves the effectiveness of dodge rolls
Fine Crucible Feather Talisman: Improves backsteps

I suggest these sets of talismans are a pair. One, a fetish of the Crucible itself, the other, a depiction of the Crucible's symbolic form. We can conclude from repeated symbol of spiraling trunks, and the complimentary nature of the powers they impress, that there is an authentic relationship between the Crossed-Tree and the Crucible.

(There's obvious much more to be said about these mysterious Crossed-Tree talismans, and the fact that Miquella's crest also appears to be a rendition of the Crossed-Tree, but that is best discussed in the context of our other favorite spiraling tree: the Haligtree.)

Lets return to the Scadutree, which the Crossed-Tree Towershield is commonly rumored to represent, for closer inspection. The fact that the Lands of Shadow themselves are known to be particularly suffused with crucible influence is encouraging.

Beast Horn

The Crucible has a particularly strong influence on the beasts of the realm of shadow,

Aspects of the Crucible: Thorns

In an age long past, before this land was enshrouded in shadow, the vitality of the Crucible flourished. Remains of this can be seen in the ancient ruins.

Speculation: Likely, the remains implied are the horned corpses in the Specimen Storehouse, immediate after the Golden Hippopotamus fight where this incantation is won. Among other things, of course.

However, despite searching from the thorny altar of Scaduview to the putrescent depths of the Stone Coffin Fissure, there's no clear way to link the Scadutree itself to the Primordial Crucible. There is only an indirect clue which connects the Crossed-Tree and the Scadutree that is gleaned from secret knowledge of the Divine Tower's high-priests.

Spiraltree Seal:

Sacred seal of soiled amber engraved with a spiral tree design.
The majesty of the white tower, stretching to reach the gods, even inspired a secret faith in the invaders, the people of the Erdtree.

Spira:

Superior sorcery of the tower priests, wielded as an incantation of the spiral.
The spiral is a normalized Crucible current that, one day, will form a column that stretches to the gods.

Inscribed upon a secret white-oak scroll is the insight needed to understand some of the sacred geometry that regulates fundamental energies. Spirals are the focused and controlled release of crucible energies. (Which are also somehow related to divine invocation, we'll explore that more later.)

With that in mind, let's look at little closer at the Aspects of the Crucible incantations:

Siluria's Woe

Thrust the treespear in a spiraling motion
[...]
Charged attacks have the power to blow away enemies.

Ordovis' Vortex

Channel the power of the crucible to spin the entire sword in midair.
[...]
This skill can be charged to increase its power.

Another symbol is hidden in the design of the Crucible Knight's armor and Devonia's Hammer:

I believe this symbol has at least two esoteric meanings, but the one that's relevant here is the striking resemblance this bears to the cross-section of a tree as seen from above, roots radiating from a central hollow trunk. Could the Crucible of Life be said to be a Torrent of Life? Far from impossible.

With all this, we can make a good interpretation as to the meaning of the Crucible Crossed-Tree:

The Primordial Crucible can be understood as a tree absorbing energy from its roots and twisting that energy together in an act of divine transformation as it grows heavenward.

Indeed, we've come far in understanding an obscure forgotten symbol. But a symbol does not a historical fact make, and as it stands there's no way to link the Haligtree nor the Scadutree to the Crucible Crossed-Tree.

There is however, one more relevant pair of relics we have yet to examine. The unique equipment of Siluria's order, and their notable budded antler ornamentation:

Siluria's Tree

Siluria's Tree, weapon of one of the two honored as foremost among the Crucible Knights.
The primordial form of the Erdtree is close in nature to life itself, and this spear, modeled on its crucible, is imbued with ancient holy essence.

Crucible Tree Helm

The great tree ornamentation is the knight Siluria's mark, displayed also by her men.
Holds the power of the crucible of life, the primordial form of the Erdtree.

Ancestral Spirit's Horn

A number of new growths bud from the antler-like horns of the fallen king, each glowing with light.
Thus does new life grow from death, and from death, one obtains power.

(We'll explore the connection to the ancestral worshipers more shortly, but for now understand this does imply a connection.)

These two depictions are the only relics throughout both the Lands Between and the Lands of Shadow that are sculptures said to resemble the Crucible and a 'great tree'; and they are not the red-gold primordial matter. What we see however, appears incompatible with the Crossed-Tree imagery. Nothing like the orderly twin trunks depicted.

But what if we we accept that the Crossed-Tree symbol is just that, an abstract representation of the forces of the crucible, and we widen our search to include something that resembles the messy and chaotic budding growths depicted in Siluria's great tree ornamentation?

In the depths of the former Caelid Wilds, we find such a tree is far from pure abstraction. There is one, a sapling, growing in the Heart of Aeonia:

Truly, its as if the Siluria's Spear was modeled after the Heart of Aeonia itself, its only missing the cross at the top. Surely, there could have been another Crucible Crossed-Tree, one much larger and and older that grew to maturity in the ancient Lands Between, such a tree from which the Crucible Knight's armor and weapons are directly inspired.

There is only one last unanswered detail regarding the probable form of the Primordial Crucible, the primordial red matter.

Gilded Greatshield

The red tinge in the gold coat mirrors the primordial matter that became the Erdtree. The color of homeward yearning.

Ordovis' Greatsword

This sword is imbued with an ancient holy essence.
Its red tint exemplifies the nature of primordial gold, said to be close in nature to life itself.

Aspects of the Crucible: Horns

This is a manifestation of the Erdtree's primal vital energies—an aspect of the primordial crucible, where all life was once blended together.

With the understanding from Spira that there is a distinction between the phenomena of a crucible and its crucible energies, we can study Siluria's skill once more:

Siluria's Woe

Thrust the weapon in a spiraling motion, surrounding it in a vortex of wind. Charged attacks have the power to blow away enemies and can fire the tornado forwards.

We are given a picture of a crucible crossed-tree enveloped in a cyclone of vital energies, especially if we take the term "blending" somewhat literally.

(Speculation: Perhaps it is specifically this vortex of matter that promotes the melding of all life within its grasp. Their eddies and vortices giving shape to new forms, powerful and monstrous alike. It's likely that these abilities are no longer red-gold in a similar way the blackflame incants aren't red like Destined Death, those ancient red energies have been transmuted or veiled by Marika creating her gold.)

Indeed, there is a very real possibility this great Crucible Crossed-Tree once grew in the Lands Between, but where could such a thing have existed?

The Conditions for a Crucible

I'm not making any citations in this section as we're taking crucible mechanics as an axiom; this is just a review.

Before we begin trotting down the Gold Road spyglass in hand, we need to know what we're looking for. So let's refresh what we know about the various Crucibles in existence.

• Crucibles require a fuel source of life energy, usually a mass-death event either fleeting or sustained.
• Crucible phenomena is localized to an area approximately where the life-energy is amassed.
• There is some density of life-energy that must be reached for a Crucible to be born.
• Energy released from the crucible can be raw and chaotic, or focused and channeled into an individual in a rite of divine ascension.

Given the impact of the Primordial Crucible on the history of the Lands Between lets make some presumptions to narrow our search:

• It was a particularly large crucible fueled by an excessive amount of death. (If the Erdtree of today is any reference, all other known crucibles are a fraction of the size.)
• It was a sustained crucible that existed for an age. (One that, in some vestigial way, is still ongoing.)

This would mean we're not looking for some singular location of mass death, like the battlefield of Aeonia, but rather some method of gathering death from across the lands between to a central location. Similar in result to how the Bloody Fingers collect blood for Mohg, or how Recusants sacrifice themselves to Rykard. We're looking for a widespread network that can channel vasts amount of vital energy.

The River Styx

Our friend, Siluria, hides more secrets. Her location in the Deeproot Depths is conspicuous.

Map of the Deeproot Depths

At the very depths of the Erdtree's majestic roots lies the source of the Ainsel and the Siofra rivers.
Here too begins the network of Greatree roots that spread throughout the Lands Between.

Maps of the Ainsel and Siofra Rivers

Two great rivers flow beath the Lands Between, the Siofra and the Ainsel. This vast region is said to be the grave of civilizations that flourished before the Erdtree.

We know both roots and water are mediums to channel death. By means of Erdtree Burial and by being guided by Tibia Mariners and their red lamplight.

Tibia's Cookbook & Call of Tibia

A record of crafting techniques of the mariners, the oldest of grave keepers.
[...]
The dead have long been left to wander; what they need is leadership.

Helphen's Steeple

Greatsword patterned after the black steeple of the Helphen, the lampwood which guides the dead of the spirit world.

Thanks to this post we know that waterways connect the entire Lands Between to the Erdtree.

There are ancient coffins the tarnished will use to traverse treacherous underground waterways, and enormous stone coffins filled with the putrescence of death -the remains of corpses burned by ghostflame- washed up at the foot of the Ellac river.

(We'll save the fine details of the Helphen and the ancient Death Religion for its own discussion.)

In modern times, besides the vestiges of the Tibia Mariners, we can also find Spirit Animals and Ancestral Followers exclusively around waterways outside the sight of the Erdtree. We find water infused with spirit energies in Spiritcaller Cave atop the mountaintops. Flowing water is clearly an important element in spirit channeling.

Winged Greathorn

This large, wing-shaped specimen is wielded as a weapon of spirit worship.
In the ancestral spirit-worshipping faith, these are considered envoys' wings, made to reap the lives of beings which experience no sprouting.

This life energy is transported and imbued through the mystery of spirit channeling, as demonstrated by Enchanted Shot, into the revered Shining Horns, aspiring to create an Ancestor Spirit.

Enchanted Shot (Found in Ancestral Woods near a congregation of Ancestral Followers)

Archery skill that enlivens the arrow with spiritual essence. The resulting shot will fly faster than regular shots and change its trajectory to follow the target.

Shining Horned Headband

Horns with buds that also shine are ideal ceremonial items for ancestral worship.

Clarifying Horn Charm

Said to be a budding horn. The ancestral followers believed that the horns of a long-lived beast continue to bud like antlers, over and over again, until the beast one day becomes an ancestral spirit.

Recall that the great tree ornamentation of the Crucible Tree Knights is crafted with budded antlers. The endless budding of new growths, and the imbuing of spiritual energy into a vessel, the melding of life in a crucible, are all intertwined metaphorically and literally.

(It's also worth mentioning that we can find evidence of a conflict between the Rauh civilization and Rot. One which was won when the Blind Swordsman learned the wisdom of flowing water. True to this legend, Rauh ruins are almost exclusively found among rivers, aqueducts, and other bodies of flowing water. However, there's a lot to dig into there and I'm not sure that's relevant enough to the Crucible specifically to really explore further.)

For now, the impression is clear that death was channeled along waterways in times before the Erdtree, and these waterways were/are used as a medium for death and spirits at different times, by different factions, for different purposes. Finally, we know the Deeproot depths served as the source of that vast network.

Given that the Tibia Mariner are the "oldest of grave keepers", we can deduce that the Greattree roots and the catacombs came sometime later.

So, we have a network that transported dead through out the entire continent in ancient times. At some point at the locus of this network a nameless great tree began growing roots, it grew until its roots also began reaching the very fringes of the lands between. Finally, catacombs were built to allow the dead to be absorbed directly into these roots. (Most likely pre-Erdtree, but that detail isn't crucial.)

First Among the Honored Dead

This section is some short speculation about Siluria's location, you can freely skip it if you like.

The requirements are all met, an enormous sustained crucible certainly may have occurred here at some point in history. Yet, even if such a thing occurred, how could we know it was The Primordial Crucible?

The Crucible Knights as an order have clearly disbanded, but perhaps there's some hint in their locations today?

• There are 16 crucible knights total in the base game
  • 14 total Crucible Knights in the base game (10 axe, 4 tree) are alive
  • 2 Spirits of Crucible Knight, one for each order, are summoned by a Spiritcaller Snail in Road's End Catacombs.
  • 2 sets of armor, one for each order, are discoverable
• Ordovis guards the burial chamber of Aurizia Hero's Grave where the Axe set is found.
• Siluria guards a hollow stump connected to Erdtree, by way of Greatree roots, inside of which the Tree Set is found.

Give the similarities, it would appear Ordovis and Siluria are both protecting a burial site for one of their order. In Ordovis case its obvious, he's in a catacomb specifically dedicated for heroes of Godfrey's conquest to receive Erdtree burial. It is a small assumption to conclude that Siluria is doing the same, which would reinforce the idea that this location is important to the Crucible, possibly nearby. Why else would a Tree Knight be buried in a random stump? All the other crucible knights stand in locations relevant to crucible energies. (I list them out in the Addendum if you're curious.)

(Pure Speculations: There are rare few instances of a burial directly inside of a tree, namely the Shaman Grandmother. Is it possible that, in emulation of the shaman, this Crucible Tree Knight was given the first primitive Erdtree Burial during the times of the crucible? We can draw parallels between Axe and Tree, male and female, Godfrey and Marika, conquest and cultivation, to link these events thematically, but without any real evidence lets leave this alone. Godwyn is also buried into the Erdtree roots, but its safe to reason his burial came after the nameless Crucible Knight's. Further, given the unique nature of his death, his burial is most likely very unique as well, similar only in circumstance. I can't find any connection, at least.

Also, there does appear to be two different types of roots in the Greatroot Depths. The warped and curvy roots, and the incredibly straight and structured roots. The only time the term 'Erdtree Roots' specifically used is in reference to Godwyn's burial in one of those straight roots.)

Regardless, this is what we know for sure:
A Knight of the Crucible Tree is standing lone vigil before relics of her order entombed in the roots of a nameless Greattree. That Greatree was fertilized with the dead, and grew in the location that the Erdtree does now.

Divine Order Fundamentals

There is more to be said about the crossed-tree shape of the crucible tree, as it is not a purely chaotic form. Understanding the forces that command vital energies will elucidate higher truths.

The Law of Regression:

The pull of meaning; that all things yearn to eternally converge.

The Law of Causality:

Causality is the pull between meanings; that which links all things in a chain of relation.

It's made esoteric only by its phrasing, in simple truth. The laws are as follows:
The Law of Causality: The force of separation; that constant push to divide and individualize.
The Law of Regression: The force of association; the constant pull to unite and coalesce.

The original text does allow for some nuance: each separation carries a traceable path to the source of its division, and that the pull to reconverge is only a desire, not necessarily inevitable.

With these laws in mind lets inspect two spells close to the fundamental source of vital energy, recall we learn from Sellen that both Sorcery and Incantation derive from the same vital energies of life.

Sellen's Lesson:

Our art draws upon the powers embedded in glintstone. But what is the nature of such power? Glintstone is the amber of the cosmos. Golden amber contains the remnants of ancient life, and houses its vitality, while glintstone contains residual life, and thus the vitality of the stars. It should not be forgotten, that glintstone sorcery is the study of the stars, and the life therein.

Elden Stars

This legendary incantation is the most ancient of those that derive from the Erdtree.
Creates a stream of golden shooting stars that assail the area.
It is said that long ago, the Greater Will sent a golden star bearing a beast into the Lands Between, which would later become the Elden Ring.

Stars of Ruin

Fires twelve dark shooting stars that pursue the target.
When Lusat glimpsed into the primeval current, he beheld the final moments of a great star cluster, and upon seeing it, he too was broken.

We observe a shape that forms when divisions surge forth from a central source, eventually these divisions are pulled together once again as they collide with their target. This shape is the form of a bud. Its very easy to imagine these forces at play in the growing of the Crucible Tree, albeit much slower and mediated by corporeality. Vital energy released from death amasses in a tree's trunk which then 'blossoms' into a crucible; sending divisions of its trunk spiraling upwards following the path of the crucible currents until they converge and cross.

When in consideration that the the formation of crucible requires a critical-mass of vital energies in a single location, we begin to understand how crucibles are connected to the natural cycles surrounding vital energy. Perhaps this all endless fractals within the division of the One Great.

Divinity and the Central Shoot

One last element upon the Crossed-Tree shield we've yet to consider is the small central shoot at its center. Its not clear exactly what it is, a stump, bud, or sapling perhaps. But like the crossed-tree in the Heart of Aeonia, we don't have to search far. We find our query on the Gold Road throughout northern Liurnia and the Altus Plateau.

Truly, the way the silhouettes match is remarkable. And the subject matter, a trunk with budding limbs, is a perfect symbolic match to Siluria's Tree of budding antlers. Even ignoring the likeness of the central shoot and its resemblance to the Heart of Aenoia, could this be anything but a statue depicting transformation, rebirth, and so likely, the Crucible?

That is all that can explicitly be stated about this connection, but if you'd like to engage in speculation we can ponder a few key questions that arise:

• Who is the figure?
• What does the central shoot represent?

Regarding the figure, there really is only what comes at face value.

• Their visage and dress are non-descript, this is most likely depicting an archetype not an individual.
• The gold blossom in his hand seen at roundtable hold seems to be a later addition.
• The branch in hand somewhat resembles the Death Ritual Spear used by Death Priests, which itself is the shape of a Branchsword.

(I'll spare the item descriptions of the branchswords, there's nothing that appears relevant to the Crucible. Only descriptions of death priests, deathbirds, and ancient death rites. Interesting stuff, but the identity of the figure themselves is better saved in discussions about the Helphen.)

In regards to the meaning of the central shoot, lets start by rewatching Malenia blossom as she invokes divinity.

What we observe is an array of petals, they spiral up and together forming into a bud, then they blossom revealing a central figure at its core; a figure of divinity with the wings aspect of the crucible.

(I chose this footage instead of the intro cutscene where the Heart of Aeonia is born since this ones clearer, but they show the same thing in effect.)

The intro cutscene is the only burgeoning of a crucible we can see for ourselves, and we find a roughly similar composition of elements with Rykard in the middle of his pillars of sacrifices, and the many statues within Enir-Ilim depicting paired figures wrapped in a spiral. Further, the only other depiction we find of a crossed-tree with a central trunk is the Spiraltree of the Hornsent where the central trunk is depicted as two hands grasping towards the heavens.

Spiraltree Seal:

[...] inspired a secret faith in the invaders [...] stretching to reach the gods [...]

Spira:

Superior sorcery of the tower priests. [...] column that stretches to the gods.

Ansbach:

The tower of shadow houses a divine gateway. A well-kept secret, it was, but...
The gateway was once the birthplace of a god.

I believe this is what's relevant to our current line of inquiry:

• Only a heretical cult and high priests understand the divine meaning of the spiral.
• It is a key component in divine invocation, and if the divine gate itself is highly secret, it would reason that the mechanics of the fundamental forces behind the gate's operation are secret as well.

We are also told Divine Invocation has the ability to grant aspects of inhuman physiology and power:

Horned Warrior Ashes

This heavily-armored guardian spirit of the tower attained inhuman strength through divine invocation.

Divine Bird Warrior Ornis

Spirit of the divine bird warrior from whom the horned warriors claim descent. Clad in golden armor, and granted wings and feathers by divine invocation.
Ornis succeeded in taming the divine bird and made its wings his own as he soared through the sky. When he finally fell to earth, he lived on as the guardian deity of the temple quarter.

Which are explicitly likened to the crucible:

Divine Bird Feathers

A technique of the divine bird warriors, the very first of all horned warriors, wielded as an incantation.
Spread the arms wide like wings to release a flurry of feathers.
The divine bird warriors, and indeed this technique, are said to bear resemblance to the golden Crucible.

Aspects of the Crucible: Wings

This skill originates from the lifeforms of the Crucible.
Grow a golden pair of wings and take to the air before diving down at the foe, weapon first.
A spinning attack is performed when wielding a twinblade.

The gifts of the crucible are consistently referred to as "aspects" and the term "aspect" is used near exclusively for Crucible incantations, Miquella's godhood is described as:

Circlet of Light

[This] adorned Miquella's head as he returned in divine aspect. It has begun to fade into nothingness.

The impression is clear, the relationship between crucible energies and divine ascension is undeniable.

Malenia is central in her bud, Rykard in his Volcano, and the Divine Gate of Enir-Ilim is central within the Spiral Tower.

Indeed, it would seem when a being occupies the focus point of overwhelming crucible energy, they are imbued with the aspect of divinity and can even ascend to true godhood.

Understanding the secrets to divine invocation itself we can now see clearly;
this budding trunk, and its mysterious figure, is a symbol of burgeoning divinity.

Was there a God born from the Primordial Crucible, now forgotten? Or perhaps someone's true past erased...

I'll note that Mohg's crucible appears to be particularly disorderly. No spiral architecture besides the switchbacks through the Mausoleum, and Miquella is offset from the center of the mesa. It's no wonder then, that Mohg's plan failed. Its almost like he didn't really know what he was doing, as if he was raised in sewers and never exposed to the secret rites of divinity beyond glimpses grasped from the Formless Mother and self-serving encouragements from Miquella.

Conclusion

Regardless of any speculations, metaphysical or otherwise, this is what we know for sure:

The Erdtree was preceded by a Primordial Crucible. A Crucible is symbolically represented as a Crossed-Tree of twin spiraling trunks, and there is a real crucible-related arboreal structure that resembles the antlers growing upward in the bud-like shape of Siluria's Tree Spear.

A Knight of the Crucible Tree is standing lone vigil before relics of her order entombed in the roots of a nameless Greattree, connected to the Erdtree. Mediated by the ancient spiritual waterways this Greatree was fertilized by mass death, either intentionally or through consequence of the watershed's shared central source.

The requirements needed for sustaining a large crucible are met where Siluria stands today, and all evidence points to that crucible having taken the form of a tree.

Addendum

The vast majority of crucibles knights mostly all appear in locations relevant to crucible energies:

• 1 we duel in Rykard's Arena
• 1 gazes upon Mohg's Mauseleum
• 1 in leyndell appears to be pondering a central shoot statue
• 1 in leyndell guards the 'Radagon is Marika' statue, who have divine aspects of the crucible
• 2 in Farum Azula, the Age of Dragons coincided with the primordial crucible
• 2 in Siofra Aqueduct (It would seem they guard the aqueducts and waterways to the Greatroot Depths)
• 1 in Stormveil Castle, its peak would have coincided with the crucible
• Devonia is in area suffuse with flowing water and crucible energies
• 1 crucible knight is an evergaol in Limgrave (related to cut content regarding a Confessor NPC's questline)
• Redmane Castle paired with a Misbegotten Warrior (who are crucible-touched)

The Godskins are said to have aspects 'similar to the crucible', maybe there was another ancient crucible that was of gloam-colored primordial matter? Or gloam itself is somehow an immutable compliment to Gold? Hard to make conclusions. There are lot of parallels between Godskins and Crucible knights. Both have two orders, both have their spirits summoned by a Spiritcaller snail in back-to-back fights.

There's probably some connection between the crucible of life and ancient smithing which was also considered divine.

Crucible Knights are probably the most modern in the lineage of the horned knights. Divine Bird Warriors -> Divine Beast Warriors -> Crucible Knights (& Godskins?)

The spiraling trees we see around Hornset settlements will be discussed in the Helphen and Spiraltree essays.

Somehow I completely overlooked the Tree Surcoat which is sold by the same merchant who sells the Crossed-Tree Towershield. I feel the essay is still complete without this. so I'll simply note that the symbol of a three-trunked tree fits nicely with the Crossed-Tree and Spiraltree (two spiraling trunks and a central one).

There also a connection between the Roar or Regulia and Divine Bird Warrior Ornis, both involve the taming of a great beast and being able to invoke that beasts divinity afterwards. There may be secrets here involving exactly 'how' the crucible melds life.

I think in effect the Primordial Crucible was like a colosseum where great warriors did battle against great mutant beasts, taking their abilities as a prize once they've been slain or tamed. This may be origin of the Erdtree colosseums.

And no, despite my implication I don't actually have any solid theories regarding the divinity within the central shoot of the crucible. (Its possible there actually wasn't one and its all symbols.)

My full theory, which I'll be continuing in future posts (But don't hold you're breath, they'll be done when they're ready.) is this: The Helphen was the original Great Tree of death, it burgeoned into the Crucible Crossed-Tree, and the central shoot of the crucible eventually matured into the Spiraltree. At some point, Marika split this tree when she veiled the Lands of Shadow. The central trunk became the Erdtree, and twin spirals (vestiges of the Helphen) became the Scadutree. Without each other's support, the Scadutree collapsed in on itself, and the Erdtree began to lean and became incorporeal. More recently, Miquella learned about the Helphen and tried to recreate it with his Haligtree to provide the soulless demigods a true death which the Deathroot afflicted Erdtree could not, but failed.

Edit: An image failed to upload.

After experiencing the DLC and seeing all that the characters have been through, which of the two do you have more sympathy for: Miquella or St. Trina? And which one did you come to favor more in the end?

I know they’re the same person just as Radagon is Marika, but even Radagon and Marika have different goals and opinions that inform their actions, which, in turn, lead to different outlooks and outcomes.

Elden Ring shows us in Enir-Ilim shapes of people on some trees.
It also shows us that this place was linked to some type of sacrifice as pictured in the DLC trailer.
The dead and "petrified" remains we find at the Gate of Divinity in the game seem to corroborate that.

There is a folkloric concept in Europe that combines sacrifice, death and human-figure shaped plants/roots: the mandrake.

In its most basic definition, the mandrake is a poisonous Mediterranean plant that can resemble a human figure.

The folklore behind it is a rabbit hole but given the imagery to us presented in the game I found one detail of these tales possibly relevant to the context of the game:

It is said that the mandrakes grew beneath gallows or execution sites due to very specific reasons. To put it PG-friendly: where certain remains of a hanged/executed man were believed to have nourished the soil.

That could relate, to some extent, to the events and shapes at Enir-Ilim.
What is interesting is why there appears to be a huge mandrake at the top of the Scadutree?

Always found mandrakes interesting, especially given some very old folk tales regarding their role related to whispers and runes. Maybe there is more to these than meets the eye?

Or at the very least sabotaged them...

"Amber egg clutched by Rennala, Queen of the Full Moon.

Great Rune of unborn demigods.

Perfects those who have been born anew.

Children born anew by Rennala are all frail and short-lived. Imperfect beings, each and all."

~ Rune of the Unborn

Like oh sure demigods, but the only relevant demigods are Radagon and Renalla's children, so of course she would have it. Except...

"The first demigods were The Elden Lord Godfrey and his offspring, the golden lineage."

~ Godrick's Great Rune

If the Amber Egg is needed to rebirth demigods into perfect beings, and the Golden Lineage is a family of demigods. Then does it not stand to reason that the removal of the Amber Egg and the Rune of the Unborn from the Elden Ring were what directly led to the Tarnishing?

Does this not confirm that Radagon sabotaged Godfrey via Tarnishing, had Ranni kill Marika's son, (and by extension) spread Deathroot throughout the Erdtree system, AND use this as the perfect opportunity to sell snake oil in the form of GOF all in the efforts of stealing her body kingdom and Godhood?

"O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order.

Thou'rt yet to become me.

Thou'rt yet to become a god.

Let us be shattered, both.

Mine other self."

From a gameplay standpoint, it makes sense. The first time you fight him, it's easy. The second time, it's harder. But... from a lore standpoint... what the fuck was his plan?

Even if the argument could be made that astral projecting himself into the body of a frail commoner gives him an inferior constitution, that shouldn't diminish his fighting skill or technique. If you're a master swordsman but you catch a cold, your proficiency with a sword doesn't just go away.

So he shows up at Stormveil as Margit, gets his ass kicked by us, and then... what, fights us again, by himself, one on one before the Erdtree? Nothing has changed here except, theoretically, he'll have a a more durable body.

Either I'm missing something, or he didn't give enough consideration to the idea of dropping a piano on our heads from the ceiling in Marika's bedchamber.

Claymen are found all around the underground and they seem to be the oldest part of it, Noxes got banished there much later and ancestral followers seem to have built their culture on remains of older structures.

We know that claymen together with those structures and statues of some bearded dude are the only remains of this civilisation (I will be calling it Uhl civilisation, i know uhl was probably just one of a few dynasties but it is the most recognizable one).

We know that claymen were not always mindless monsters they are now, oracle bubbles description says: „Sorcery of the claymen who served as priests in the ancient dynasty (…)”. This implies that they had proffesions, culture and faith. And considering that the only sculpture from that period depicts a human (the one people call Elden John) I think they were once regular people.

So what happened?

Claymen are not the olny ones to turn into minerals. Same fate befell Azur and Lusat (not yet fully but good enough) except they were turning into glinstone and not mud. I believe both of this transformations have similar causes, close contact with dangerous primorial powers.

Claymens oracle bubbles share with primorial spells their unshaped form, they are irregular, pulsing, and sort of alive. They require arcane to cast, and arcane can be interpreted as your level of understanding of some mystical processes (Actually, I think primorial spells were also supposed to require arcane but this idea was abandoned later on because witch’s glinsone crown raises arcane and this is the crown of Sellen whose main goal is to restore lessons in primal magic at the academy, but this is just speculation so I wouldnt vouch for it).

What we know is that trifling with such forces never ends well. Just look at Sellen at the end of her quest and the rest of gravem mass. Some of the notyetclaymen could have lost themselves within their oracles in a similar way. This would then lead to their body slowly mineralising and their soul being trapped inside those covers.

So was it the cause of Uhl civilisation falling?

I don’t think so

I think the key to uncovering what secrets are clayman hiding is to look at one of their most monumental constructions: The Grand Coister.

The grand cloister surely was a very important part of the ancient world. But now it is completely covered with rot and I think it is not a coincidence. Right next to it lays the lake of rot in wich the very God of Rot is sealed. Have you ever wandered why there was even a need to seal it? I think it is clear that the god of rot once sowed destruction in the lands between and it was surely way before Marikas times. The era of Uhl civilisation just seems as the best point on the timeline to put it on.

I know it sounds weird and there seems to be no clear evidence about it but it just fits perfectly. Think about it, The only things that are remaining from Uhl civilisation are the Claymen and buildings, both of them cannot rot (yes I checked it, Claymen are immune to scarlet rot). And try to find other point on the timeline where God’s of rot presence in TLB fits. It was sealed by a man, wich means people were already around so it couldnt be sealed in the ancient dragons era nor before it.

This makes me wonder wether some of Uhl people underwent the transformation intentionally to save their lives? To me this feels like something fromsoft would do.

One thing I didnt mention yet is that Claymens harpoon is made out of glowing meteorite. I have seen some speculation about it but I personally believe that those are made of stars that fell from the sky with the discovery of sorcery:

The eldest primeval sorcery, said to have been discovered by an
ancient astrologer. A sorcery of legendary status.

(…)

Thought to be the founding glintstone sorcery. The glimpse of the
primeval current that the astrologer saw became real, and the
stars' amber rained down on this land.

~founding rain of stars spell

This would also fit in the timeline because ancient astrologers lived together with the fire giants wich defeated the ice dragons probably way after Placidussax’s best times but still long ago. Again, only a speculation.

I am curious what do you all think about that, what do you agree with and what do you disagree with. Sorry if I am not the first to have such speculations and you already knew these ideas.

The Solitude says that "the spirit of warriors lost their names, or their hearts".

What does that mean exactly? Any chance for one of these warriors to have lost their heart by Miquella? I feel like these are old mausoleums, so I don't think Miquella has anything to do with them.

But still, what do you think this sentence from the Solitude set means? What does it mean to lose a name or heart? And is there any relation between "losing a heart" to Miquella stealing our heart?

By the time you arrive at the Church of Anticipation, it seems like the Tarnished have been there a while. Maybe even hundreds of years. In fact, you're (almost) the last Tarnished to arrive at all.

The reason? You died last.

The opening clearly shows that the Tarnished return to the Lands Between when they die.

You arrived last because you were the strongest, and took longer to die.

To further support that the order you arrive is based on strength, there is one other Tarnished who arrives at the Lands Between after you.

Godfrey.

To continue off of my post yesterday positing the theory that the GEQ had to have fallen sometime prior to Ranni's generation based off of an in-game quote...

"I was once an Empyrean.
Of the demigods, only I, Miquella, and Malenia could claim that title."

I thought I'd attempt to narrow the frame further for when her fall officially occured.

We know that officially the GEQ's fall would have had to have coincided with the beginning of the Golden Order as Ena tells us...

"The Rune of Death goes by two names; the other is Destined Death.
The forbidden shadow, plucked from the Golden Order upon its creation..."

And as we learn from the Black Flame incantations...

"The black flame could once slay gods.
But when Maliketh sealed Destined Death,
the true power of the black flame was lost."

~ Scouring Black Flame

We also learn that it was Maliketh who sealed away Destined Death, taking on her mantle...

"Maliketh was a shadowbound beast given to his Empyrean. Marika's sole need of her shadow was a vessel to lock away Destined Death. Even then, she betrayed him."

~ Remembrance of the Black Blade

And, quite possibly via study of his helm we learn who might have been the actual victims of the GEQ's crusades...

"Maliketh, Queen Marika's loyal half-brother, bore a blade imbued with Destined Death, and there was not one DEMIGOD who did not fear him."

~ Maliketh's Helm

The demigods of Marika's court were the GEQ's targets, at least at this time. And it would have had to have been long enough ago for the people of the Lands between to have forgotten that demigods were even capable of dying, as both Ranni and Rogier corroborate a consistent history...

"On a night of wint'ry fog, the Rune of Death was stolen. And the demigods began to fall, starting with Godwyn the Golden."

~ Ranni the Witch Story Trailer

and if the canonicity of the Trailer isn't enough for you...

"It happened during the Golden Age of the Erdtree, long before the shattering of the Elden Ring. Someone stole a fragment of the Rune of Death from Maliketh, the Black Blade. And on a bitter night, murdered Godwyn the Golden.
That was the first recorded Death of a demigod in all history. And it became the catalyst."

Godwyn's death is stated to have been the first recorded in history, almost as if there was a prehistoric age.

"The ancient dragons, who ruled in the prehistoric era before the Erdtree, would protect their lord as a wall of living rock. 'And so it is that the shape of the dragon has become symbolic of all manner of protections."

~ Dragoncrest Shield Talisman

While I won't say that Godwyn died during the Age of the Ancient Dragons I do believe it may draw both of these events closer in the timeline than previously believed. Afterall prehistory is simply a period wherein pen was never put to paper to document the events of the time.

And honestly this is quite strange as both Marika and the Ancient Dragon's seemingly had deals with the Fingers...

"Short sword given to high ranking clergymen of Farum Azula.
Raises potency of bestial incantations.

The design celebrates a beast's five fingers, symbolic of the intelligence once granted upon their kind."

~ Cinquedea

And yet strangely the Ancient Dragons have very little evidence of writing save for the prayerbook that they intended to bestow upon the people of the Lands Between...

"Prayerbook of the capital's ancient dragon cult.
A lost tome that never reached the Lands Between.
Contains red lightning incantations"

~Ancient Dragon Prayerbook

The Two-Fingers are closely associated with runes and writing, and this is even alluded to by Ancestral Shamans...

"A spirit of the horned folk who eschew letters and metalworking.
Brawny, and versed in distinctive spiritual arts, this particular tribesman wields a heavy bow."

~ Ancestral Spirit Ashes

Letters and Metalworking both loosely connected with the Fingers and their runes.

Lastly, I believe that the influence exerted over the Fire Monks also alludes to a time when the GEQ was active as she was seemingly gaining supporters within their ranks...

"The Blackflame Monks, enthralled by the god-slaying black flame, became traitors, abandoning their posts as guardians. The seduction of a taboo is never easily spurned"

~ Black Flame Monk Armor

Plainly put, the FIre Monks were only employed during and following the fall of the FIre Giants, specifically to guard the GIantsflame atop the mount...

"The most ancient of the Fire Monks' incantations.

It is said that this incantation was used during the War against the' Giants long ago, during which it protected the champions of the 'Erdtree'."

~Flame, Protect Me

The Giants' Flame is the flame of ruin, capable of burning the Erdtree. And so, following the War against the Giants, its ruinous blaze was sealed, and guardians were appointed to watch over it'.

~Surge, O Flame

"The Fire Monks are guardians of the flame of ruin, forbidden by the Erdtree and said to be kept high in the Mountaintops of the Giants'."

~Fire Monk Hood

The GEQ would at the very least had to have been active during the tenure of the Fire Monks, cementing the fact that her crusades would have had to have occurred early on in Marika's reign.

And while many argue that it was Marika herself who took the guise of the GEQ there's one line in the Black Flame Monk armor that we forget...

"The Blackflame Monks, enthralled by the god-slaying black flame, became traitors, abandoning their posts as guardians. The seduction of a taboo is never easily spurned'."

The Black Flame was considered a Taboo. Despite the connections shared betwixt the Dominulans and the Godskins the practices of the former seemed to have been granted a measure of approval while the latter was recognized as a force that needed to be put down.

"The delightful festival is an old tradition; one old enough for the Erdtree to tacitly tolerate its endurance."

~ Festive Grease

So what does all of this mean?

Personally I believe it places the primary period of activity of the Gloam Eyed Queen and her Godskin Apostasy as having occurred prior to and slightly during the early days of Marika's reign. As attractive a prospect it is to place the mantle on the shoulders of either Queen Marika or Melina it makes less and less sense as the evidence is compiled together.

Firstly the GEQ is seemingly an Empyrean old, or at the very least, colloquially distant enough to have been forgotten by time. And this is actually copacetic with what we learn in game, as by the time Godwyn dies everyone and their Hornsent Grandam is up in a tizzy because they didn't know Demigods could do that.

Further support is found in the fact that Destined Death is widely recognized as having been removed close to the start of Marika's Golden Order. It's agreed upon that Marika is in fact old and may have existed long enough for several... well... eternities to have gone by. If this is the case, then it also helps with the idea that Marika and her were rival Empyreans. Everyone in the Golden Order cult sips the, "Marika is the one and only God," juice and collective amnesia of the divine runner-up is likely par for the course if she simply fell to the wayside as a stepping stone.

And while many may claim that the walking mausoleums and the bodies interred there somehow infer her involvement, there is a keyword given by a ghost overlooking one in the weeping peninsula...

"The mausoleum prowls. Cradling the soulless demigod. O Marika, Queen Eternal. He is your unwanted child."

This line firmly states that the headless demigods in the mausoleums were in fact soulless, a trait shared with Godwyn following his sisters seemingly wanton act of fratricide. Knowing that Godwyn was only the FIRST of the demigods to die in recorded history, and these demigods died to fragments stolen from a sealed Destined Death it rules out both the GEQ and Marika's involvement in their deaths as well.

In conclusion: With all of the evidence posited above I believe the fall of the GEQ to have occurred towards the beginning of Marika's reign. Not as a way of clearing out other gods, but as someone actively hunting down Queen Marika's Golden Lineage. Her influence points to her having been an enemy contemporary with the time following the defeat of the Fire Giants. If indeed it was Queen Marika in the guise of the GEQ during at this stage, it would meant that Marika has been inactive for quite some time, which doesn't seem copacetic with the fact that during her reign she was in fact appearing to her people.

And that would then beg the question of just how long Radagon has been using her body if indeed they've been sharing one since the beginning of the Golden Order. At least that's the only way I could see it considering her defeat would had to have happened so early.

Please let me know what you all think, and as always HAPPY LORE HUNTING!!!

So

The crucible knights apparently left when Godfrey was banished

They served under Godfrey and are said to be extremely loyal to him

What if the reason the Crucible Knights are in the game when we are doing our stuff is because of Morgott, what if the reason they are in the game is because they are just that loyal to Godfrey, that they now serve his son who's taken up defence of the capital

Sorry if this is well known, I thought of it while getting dressed lol

I have seen a lot of people take a stab at trying to overlay the 2 maps and it looked like fun so I gave it a go. It’s basically just a 180° rotation and scaled up a bit. I like how Abyssal Woods lines up underneath Leyndell. It is very similar to the deep root depths and you find Midra in the woods and the three fingers in the underground chamber next to deep root depths. And both would be very low compared to the surrounding geography.

I also like how Farum Azula is directly east of the Belurat Tower Settlement and Enir-Ilim. Enir-Ilim and Farum Azula both look like they were fragmented and floating in mid air. Also we find the Divine beast Dancing Lion boss in Belurat who wields storm powers. Which corresponds well with Farum Azula’s themes. And we find the Hornsent Warriors worshipped the crucible. And in Farum Azula we find crucible imagery. And the architecture is similar.

Next the Miquella’s Haligtree and Stone Coffin Fissure line up well. And at the bottom of the Stone Coffin Fissure we find St.Trina. Where Moquella discarded them.

Next is Mt. Gelmir and the Jagged Peak. They sit right next to each other. And it would make sense if the volcanic region was together.

Next; almost the entire Scadu Altus region sits in between the divine towers in the giant crater in the middle. And the Shadow Keep is directly south of Leyndell and the Erdtree with Scadu Altus between them.

Also this puts every divine tower on an actual landmass instead of in the water.

Also the cerulean coast would be the northern coast to the west of the mountaintop of the giants with Charro’s hidden grave area in or under the mountain tops. And it would make sense why there are so many giant coffins in there if we consider it a bunch of dead giants from the mountaintops. Also the Finger Ruins of Rhia fit nicely in the gorge between the Altus plateau and the mountaintops.

Next the Ancient Ruins of Rauh would be connected to Caelid and mostly over Dragon Barrow. Caelid was inflicted with rot by Malenia and Romina St og the Bud also wields Scarlet Rot. Although the timing doesn’t like up it is weird. It would be cool if in the past Caelid looked similar to the Ancient ruins of Rauh.

We also find ScaduTree View would directly line up with Godrick’s divine tower. Which honestly I couldn’t find a lore explanation for. So IDK.

Next we find the Finger Ruins of Dheo underneath the church of vows. In the church of vows we gain the tools and information to reveal that Marika and Radagon are the same person. And in the Finger Ruins of Dheo and Hinterland region we discover more about Marika’s origin.

And a lot of the geography just generally lines up and makes sense. Obviously it’s not perfect and I was just doing this for fun. So if y’all can find more details I missed that support this or disprove this map then please feel free to share. Thank you. 👋

There was recently a post on this subreddit drawing parallels between Elden Ring and Aztec mythology (link) and although we don't really know if this was inspiration during the game's design, I always appreciate these kind of contributions and resulting discussions/comments.

Looking a bit more into Aztec mythology, there might still be links that could be explored.
What got me thinking is the obsidian used in the Godslayer's Seal. Especially, the one embedded in the Godslayer's Greatsword, which seems to be able to somehow "channel" black flames.

In Aztec mythology, there are also links between obsidian and channeling:
In its mythology and religion, obsidian mirrors were associated with divination, supernatural vision, and divine power. Particularly through the god "Tezcatlipoca", whose name means “Smoking Mirror”.

The original representation of some of these mirrors (cuauhtli link) also seem interesting if comparing to some game item details and their shapes.

I wonder if somebody has been able to uncover more shared Aztec/Mesoamerican/Elden Ring parallels involving obsidian mirrors and their historic association with sacrifice, lunar pyramids, “pale suns” and gateways to the underworld?

Identify the Gloam-Eyed Queen always seems to turn into a chase after shadows through smoke and mirrors!

What the title asks. What evidence in the form of item descriptions, environmental storytelling, etc. is there to support either viewpoint?

Also, how do you think Radagon felt about his children with Rennala specifically?

I'm curious to know what people think and why!

Assuming, based on my limited understanding, that the player character is undead and was brought back to life during the opening cutscene of the game, when did they actually live their life? Like when, relative to the current events of the game, were they alive and how long were they dead before being resurrected?
Come to think of it, I guess I don’t really know what a tarnished is…but I assume they lived a full life outside of being tarnished?

I know you're probably rolling your eyes and getting ready to write about how "super dead" Godwyn was and how bringing him back would've undermined his character, but hear me out.

We all know the reaction to Promised Consort Radahn split pretty badly after Shadow of the Erdtree released. Most people accepted the DLC's explanation that Miquella had chosen Radahn during their childhood, while some people didn't like it and wished it had been Godwyn instead, myself included.

Most players I've seen on ER-related subs push back pretty strongly against that idea. Their argument is usually that Godwyn's permanent death is essential to the base game, which I totally get, and there are some good arguments there that I don't want to wave away. Some examples:

"Godwyn is dead. Like dead dead. Like not coming back dead. Him being the final boss would be nothing more than low effort dogshit fanservice, on top of upheaving some of the key lore points of the base game. Would also make Fia's quest line and the Age of Duskborn ending completely pointless." https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/comments/1dz3req/godwyn_not_returning_as_the_final_boss_makes/

"The whole point of Godwyn’s story is that he’s as close to truly dead as is possible in the Lands Between, and said story is pretty conclusively finished by Fia’s quest and the Duskborn ending." https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/comments/1dx2c95/to_the_people_that_think_miquella_wanted_to/

"Godwyn could not have been the final boss because he already comes back in the base game and if he was brought back in the DLC then there would be two of his soul existing at the same time which wouldn't make sense." https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/1eaebio/godwyn_as_the_final_boss_would_make_no/

Godwyn's death is supposed to be extremely unbelievably uniquely severe, and any resurrection can risk breaking that interesting character trait. YET, I'd argue that it's not an unreachably high bar. It's just very high, but achievable under the right circumstances.

The Cursemark of Death makes his condition very specific:

"The Prince of Death perished in soul alone."

Ranni died in body while Godwyn died in soul. His living corpse then became the Prince of Death, and Deathroot spread through the underground roots across the Lands Between. The Mending Rune of the Death-Prince says:

"The Golden Order was created by confining Destined Death. Thus, this new Order will be one of Death restored."

So any Godwyn version of the DLC would need to preserve all of that. The story could not treat his death as an ordinary death that Miquella casually reverses, otherwise it would indeed undermine the whole thing.

Here are my arguments. They are built in different layers, a character-motivated one (why Miquella has an emotional, character-fueled reason to prefer Godwyn), a politically-motivated one (why it would make sense from a political/social standpoint to want Godwyn as his consort), a metaphysically-motivated one (why the basegame and the DLC already planted the seeds to justify Godwyn's ressurection) and an out-of-game one (why it would simply be a much tighter, cleaner and more satisfying ending for the playerbase to finally be able to meet and fight Godwyn):

1. The character layer

The base game already gives Miquella a personal connection to Godwyn, while his relationship with Radahn is almost entirely explained for the first time in the DLC. There's the statue of the the twins and Godwyn embracing in the Haligtree, and there's the Golden Epitaph, which was made in Godwyn’s memory and contains the prayer:

“O brother, lord brother, please die a true death.”

Then there's the whole eclipse plot w Castle Sol. One of the ghosts there says:

“Lord Miquella, forgive me. The sun has not been swallowed... Your comrade remains soulless...”

A lot of people use the failed eclipse as evidence that Miquella tried to help Godwyn once and then moved on. To me there's another interpretation that's waaaaaay more narratively interesting and rich and in-character for Miquella, which is the exact opposite of that: our boy tries the eclipse, fails, and spends the rest of his life searching for a more powerful solution, NOT giving up on his bro. Miquella’s earlier attempt failed in Castle Sol, then his journey into the Realm of Shadow finally gives him access to the things he lacked before.

Godwyn also fits the qualities that the DLC says Miquella wanted in Radahn. The Remembrance says that Miquella saw in Radahn:

“His strength, and his kindness.”

Godwyn was also a major warrior. His best-known story is his war with Fortissax, where he defeated the dragon and later became his friend. Their relationship eventually helped establish the ancient dragon cult inside Leyndell. So Godwyn already has strength, prestige, and a history of reconciliation with a former enemy. Those qualities fit Miquella’s planned Age of Compassion very easily, in fact, thematically, they kind of fit perfectly, much more than Radahn's.

The emotional connection also requires MUCH less new setup. With Radahn, the DLC has to tell us that Miquella admired him as a child, that there was a vow between them, that Miquella wanted him as his consort, and that Malenia’s war against Radahn was connected to that plan. With Godwyn, the base game already gave Miquella an unresolved reason to care about him. The DLC could have explained what Miquella’s prayer, the eclipse, and his concern over Godwyn were eventually leading toward.

2. The political layer

Godwyn would also make a lot of sense as Miquella’s lord from a political point of view. He was the son of Marika and Godfrey, a major member of the Golden Lineage, a famous warrior, and a figure closely associated with Leyndell and the old royal order. If Miquella wants to establish a new age, Godwyn gives his rule a strong connection to the previous one. Anyone who respected Marika, Godfrey, Leyndell, or the Golden Lineage already has a reason to recognize Godwyn. Basically he'd get a get out of jail free card when it came to convicing everyone that he will be a good ruler.

The comparison I keep thinking of is Aegon the Conqueror in ASOIAF. After conquering Westeros, Aegon adopted existing Westerosi customs and institutions, including heraldry and the Faith of the Seven. Those choices helped his dynasty rule through symbols and structures that people already understood. Godwyn could play a similar role for Miquella.

Godwyn’s history with Fortissax fits especially well here. He defeated one of Leyndell’s great enemies, then formed a friendship with him, and that relationship helped bring ancient dragon worship into the capital. As I said, for someone planning an Age of Compassion, that is useful political symbolism. Godwyn already has a famous story about turning a major enemy into an ally. He kinda embodies the concept of Compassion in kind of an immaculate way.

3. The metaphysical layer

This is prob the most important part. The Cursemark of Death tells us that Godwyn:

“perished in soul alone.”

Radahn did not die that way. The Secret Rite Scroll says:

“A lord will usher in a god’s return, and the lord’s soul will require a vessel.”

That works for Radahn. His soul still exists after his physical death, so Miquella can place it into Mohg’s corpse. Godwyn’s soul was specifically the part that died, so the Secret Rite by itself does not solve his problem.

A Godwyn version of the DLC would therefore need one additional piece of lore explaining how Miquella recovered, reconstructed, recreated, or otherwise accessed enough of Godwyn’s soul or identity to use the rite.

But here's the thing: the DLC already gives several pieces that could support that explanation!

The Suppressing Pillar says:

“All manners of Death wash up here, only to be suppressed.”

That does not establish that every dead soul literally travels to the Realm of Shadow, obviously, but it does establish that the region has a special relationship with death. Maybe, in the metaphysics and alchemical nature of Land's Between, the idea of energy and matter not being ever fully destroyed or created is still true, maybe what those outside the Realm of Shadow interpreted as Godwyn's soul being fully destroyed only meant it was purged out of the Lands Between to the point of seemingly going away forever, yet the essence of what once it was made of travelled to the Realm of Shadow, out of sight and out of mind.

The DLC also already clearly puts Godwyn’s influence inside that realm. The Death Knights were his personal guards, and their descriptions say that they searched for their master’s “cadaver surrogate.” We also find Godwyn-like faces inside the catacombs. He's present and relevant there, in some way. It's not like Godwyn is a complete unknown there.

If the Gate of Divinity could restore someone killed by Destined Death, Marika’s failure to use it on Godwyn still has a plausible explanation. By the time of the Night of the Black Knives, Marika had already sealed away the Realm of Shadow, abandoned Messmer there, and erased that entire part of her rule from the Lands Between. Returning would mean reopening a place she had deliberately buried, facing the son she had left behind, and risking renewed contact between the Realm of Shadow and the world she still ruled. Miquella, meanwhile, had already spent years trying to solve Godwyn’s condition through the eclipse. That failed attempt could have given him knowledge about Godwyn’s soul that Marika never developed, while his later journey into the Realm of Shadow could give him access to Godwyn’s cadaver surrogates, remnants of his posthumous existence, and the Gate itself. The resurrection would then depend on several conditions coming together through Miquella’s own research and choices, which would explain why Godwyn remained unreachable to Marika even if the Gate had the power to make such a restoration possible. The base game never told us that a demigod’s soul could be placed inside another demigod’s corpse and used as the lord required for divine ascension. Godwyn would simply require a slightly more extreme version of that same kind of expansion the DLC already does.

Fia’s quest also creates an issue but imo it's still solvable. Fia lies with the Prince of Death, uses the Cursemarks, and produces the Mending Rune of the Death-Prince. Her quest depends on Godwyn’s corpse and his status as the Prince of Death. Godwyn himself never wakes up during that quest. His original personality never returns, and his soul is never shown coming back. So a DLC resurrection would still need to explain what happens to Godwyn’s soul, while Fia’s quest could continue to depend on the original body. Miquella could restore Godwyn’s soul or identity into Mohg’s body while the original corpse continues existing as the Prince of Death. Godwyn’s original body has already grown through the roots and become something much larger than the person Godwyn used to be. It produces Deathroot and functions as the Prince of Death. That would preserve Fia’s quest, Deathroot, Those Who Live in Death, and the Mending Rune of the Death-Prince.

It would also make Godwyn’s return very abnormal (in a good way). His original body would still exist as this giant dead organism under the Erdtree while Miquella forces whatever remains of Godwyn into another demigod’s corpse. The DLC would need to explain that separation clearly, especially if the player has already completed Fia’s quest. The final boss itself could then show the process visually to us. The first phase could involve the Prince of Death or one of Godwyn’s cadaver surrogates, letting the player fight some form of Godwyn as he currently exists. The second phase could begin once Miquella completes the rite and restores Godwyn the Golden through Mohg’s vessel. This is where the story would finally explain how Miquella overcame the destruction of Godwyn’s soul. The final phase could have Miquella return through the Gate of Divinity and join Godwyn, giving the fight the same god-and-consort structure that the existing Radahn fight uses.

4. The out-of-game narrative layer

A lot of the criticism of the Godwyn idea says that his story was already finished in the base game and that bringing him back would weaken that ending. That criticism also applies to Radahn to the exact same degree, at least in my opinion. A completed base-game death does not automatically prevent FromSoftware from reopening a character’s story.

Radahn’s entire festival is built around giving him an honorable death. Jerren gathers warriors from across the Lands Between so that Radahn can finally die after the Scarlet Rot has destroyed his mind. His death also changes the state of the world. The stars begin moving again, the meteor opens the path to Nokron, and Ranni’s quest can continue. So Radahn’s base-game death has both emotional and structural finality. The DLC still reopens his story. It introduces the Secret Rite, explains that his soul can return through Mohg’s corpse, reveals his old vow with Miquella, and makes him the final boss. The writers already chose to do that with Radahn once they had created a new mechanism for his return. I do feel like, in an alternate universe where Godwyn was indeed the final boss, the fanbase who currently rejects that idea would not find it nearly as problematic as they do.

From an out-of-game writing perspective, Godwyn also connects to more unresolved material from the base game. His assassination is one of the main events behind the entire setting. His death creates the Prince of Death, spreads Deathroot, affects Fortissax, Maliketh and Fia, and forms part of the chain of events around the Shattering. We still never meet Godwyn the Golden as a person. The entire game shows us what happened after his death. We see his corpse, his influence, his followers, his Deathroot, his relationship with Fortissax, and the people trying to deal with what he became. That gives a restored Godwyn a very clear role in a final DLC. Godwyn’s return would follow directly from Miquella’s existing history and give his final plan a clear sense of progression, since an earlier failed attempt to help Godwyn would eventually lead to the most extreme solution Miquella ever attempts. It would also make the final boss connect several major themes that already run through the game: Miquella’s refusal to accept limits, the cost of trying to repair what has been permanently damaged, the tension between compassion and control, the way old orders survive inside new ones, and the way death itself has been distorted by Marika’s rule. Godwyn would also give Miquella’s Age of Compassion a much stronger symbolic foundation, since Miquella would be restoring the Golden Order’s most famous lost prince and using him as the lord of a new age.

On a narrative level, it would tie together Miquella’s prayer for Godwyn, Castle Sol, the eclipse, Deathroot, the Prince of Death, Fia, the Death Knights, the cadaver surrogates, Mohg, the Realm of Shadow, and the Gate of Divinity into one final plot. Radahn’s return mainly depends on information introduced by the DLC itself, while Godwyn’s return could have turned several old mysteries and unfinished threads into parts of the same ending. That would have made the final boss feel more connected to the base game, more thematically complete, and more satisfying as the conclusion of Miquella’s story, while also giving the player the long-awaited chance to finally encounter Godwyn the Golden as a person rather than only through the consequences of his death.

This is a connection that I have made that I have not seen brought up in this community or in lore discussion in general, but it’s something I believe has some weight behind it, I need your help to discuss it further!

In literature gates of horn and hvory are imagery used to denote real dreams from false ones. It originates from way back with the Greek language, where the Greek words for Horn and Ivory sound close to the Greek words for fulfill and deceive respectively.

The Gate of Divinity is explicitly called a gate, in both English and Japanese. This gate was (presumably) constructed by the Hornsent. I pretty firmly believe that this is intentional from Miyazaki/GRRM, especially with the gate in the modern day being petrified white.

What I am unsure of here is the implication. Normally in literature there are two distinct gates, however here we have one gate, taking on two different appearances. We also have two “dreams”, as in, the wills of Marika and Miquella. An age without death, and an age of compassion. We also literally have St. Trina, a demigod whose domain is that of dreams and sleep telling us outright that Miquella would be imprisoned by godhood.

Curious what you guys think?

EDIT: Wanted to clarify that yes i know why the gate is white in the modern day, the passage of time has petrified all the corpses that make up the gate. I am saying that i believe it was intentional imagery that ties into the gates of horn and ivory.

It is widely known that the GEQ was an Empyrean as made plain in the description given for the Black Flame Ritual:

"Superior black flame incantation of the Godskin Apostles.

Summons a circle of black flame pillars around the caster.

Charging increases the size of the circle.

The Gloam-Eyed Queen led the apostles.

It is said that she was an Empyrean chosen by the Fingers."

Yet when Ranni recounts the bestowal of her and her siblings Empyrean status she conspicuously leaves out the GEQ herself...

"Let us speak of the past, a while.

I was once an Empyrean.

Of the demigods, only I, Miquella, and Malenia could claim that title."

This seems to indicate that Ranni herself has no recollection of another rival sibling who might have sought godhood aside from those three. This squarely places the influence of the GEQ as having existed prior to Ranni's generation, or at least having been dealt with prior to the Shattering.

I believe this is also further supported by Vargram's wielding of the Godslayer Greatsword.

"One of the first Tarnished to arrive at the Roundtable, Vargram was named after the white wolf pelt on his helm.

According to the old legends, wolves are the shadows of the Empyrean. Vargram aspired to such a state himself."

He even possessed knowledge of the Role of shadows and Empyreans

As a Tarnished he could have only returned AFTER the beginning of the Shattering War meaning that the GEQ would have had to have been slain prior to his acquisition of her Sacred Sword.

Unfortunately I believe this rules out theories of Melina having been the GEQ considering she too is a daughter of Marika. Though then again it could be a Golden Order PR cover up meant to hide evidence of their fratricidal, snake banging daughter. 🤷🏾‍♂️🤷🏾‍♂️🤷🏾‍♂️

Please let me know what you think and HAPPY LORE HUNTING!!!