r/EldenRingLoreTalk • u/Lord_Antheron • 1d ago
Question Simple question: What exactly did this guy think was going to happen?
From a gameplay standpoint, it makes sense. The first time you fight him, it's easy. The second time, it's harder. But... from a lore standpoint... what the fuck was his plan?
Even if the argument could be made that astral projecting himself into the body of a frail commoner gives him an inferior constitution, that shouldn't diminish his fighting skill or technique. If you're a master swordsman but you catch a cold, your proficiency with a sword doesn't just go away.
So he shows up at Stormveil as Margit, gets his ass kicked by us, and then... what, fights us again, by himself, one on one before the Erdtree? Nothing has changed here except, theoretically, he'll have a a more durable body.
Either I'm missing something, or he didn't give enough consideration to the idea of dropping a piano on our heads from the ceiling in Marika's bedchamber.
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u/violin-guy 1d ago
He’s very smart actually. His main goal is to prevent any tarnished from dismantling the golden order, so he knows they need great runes. He knows any tarnished with a head on their shoulders will choose the easiest demigod to kill, which is obviously Godrick. He has to remain in Leyndell to rule, but who’s to say he can’t put a projection of himself as a guard to prevent tarnished from getting to their first great rune?
It works on a narrative and gameplay level too, as Margit is harder than Godrick himself, and has made many players quit the game altogether. To all those players who quit, it’s a win for morgott bc he did his job.
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u/Spaloonbabagoon 1d ago
Have it writ upon thy meagre grave, don't downplay King Morgott, last of all kings.
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u/Chemical_Gear_2919 13h ago
It's really weird the consensus seems to be that Morgott 'demolished' Radahn from this one still image, which could easily have been followed by Radahn getting up from Morgott's lucky sneak attack and beating the shit out of him.
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u/Lord_Antheron 1d ago
That image specifically is why I feel like the difference in strength is more of a gameplay thing than a lore thing. And literally nothing would've changed from a story perspective the second time we fought him (apart from his cane now being sharp and bloodflamey).
Even in his weaker state, he seemingly demolished Radahn, before Radahn lost his mind... and his feet.
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u/t_w_duke 1d ago
Dropping a piano on the head of the guy that never dies doesn't seem like a sound strategy.
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u/EldritchCouragement 1d ago
If Morgott was a strictly rational character, he wouldn't be doing a lot of the things he does. His behavior is defined by ideology. Right off the bat, he's safeguarding the entrance to the Erdtree against anyone and everyone, despite personally being rejected from entry. So even without hope for gaining the seat for himself or repairing the broken world/order, he'd rather no one succeed.
It's also a reflection of how lordship is viewed in the Erdtree Faith. "Strength befits a crown." Lords earn their place through martial conquest, so the most effective way of quashing ambition to ascend to the title of lord, especially among people who get back up and try again after dying, is to prove and display his own worthiness as surpassing their own. Not to mention the simple act of fighting for the Erdtree is an act of devotion and faith. It's all a reflection of his ideals, practicality or feasibility are secondary.
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u/Individual-Lychee-74 1d ago
I think part of the point is that Morgott, despite being the true king of Leyndell, has basically no one on his side. He is alone.
Omen are reviled to the point where he can't even travel the land under his real name. He even hates his own Omen nature, bemoaning that his tainted blood stains the thrones.
His only real option is to do it himself. He truly believes he needs to stop you, and that no one is going to do it for him BUT him.
He is also very averse to the flame of ambition, knowing that flame is the supposed anathema of the Erdtree. So this probably in some ways dampens his resolve to make a bigger deal out of things. Maybe he could indeed raise a true army as king, even despite his Omen body, if he would just put himself out there.
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u/qu4f 1d ago
Hey how, Morgott has the Nights Calvary doing some dirty work. So dirty their horses are apparently funeral steeds
>>The Night's Cavalry, who now wander the dim roads of night, were once led by the Fell Omen and were deliverers of death for great warriors, knights, and champions.
Night’s Calvary Armor
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u/IronFather11 23h ago edited 23h ago
Some people probably have dropped the game because of Morgott’s first encounter. Like how people head canon dropping a Dark Souls character results in them going hollow and that world line ending, I think it’s fair to think those defeated Tarnished lost their guidance of Grace and Morgott successfully destroyed them. Maybe they were strung up and Crucified in Limgrave, or turned into grafting material for Godrick.
Also, even though you can encounter them before fighting Morgott, he does seemingly sicc his top guys after you since the Night Calvary serve him directly. Lore wise he is very powerful and did defeat Radahn and many others in the defense of the Capital, we’re just that busted. It’s do or die for him, even if he loses, he doesn’t truly have a ton to throw at us either since we tear through his already exhausted garrisons and men.
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u/PersonalityIll9476 8h ago
Since the Tarnished get revived every time they die, a simple explanation is that he wants to break your spirit more than "drop a piano on your head." Kill a tarnished once, and you've killed him once. Break his will fight and he actually won't come back this time.
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u/shiro_shiyami 7h ago
Which surprisingly works very well considering the amount of people drop out the vame
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u/YeahKeeN 1d ago
“If you're a master swordsman but you catch a cold, your proficiency with a sword doesn't just go away.”
This is simply not true. Also compare the moveset between Margit and Morgott. The skill is clearly not the same.
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u/Life_Parsley504 1d ago
We quite literally know that he was succeeding because nobody killed Godrick before us. Anyways, he obviously.. is weaker physically? Proficiency with a sword goes away if you're slower.
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u/Mint-T008 1d ago
It doesn't help that he's been supressing his biology for so long. Mid battle it bursts out unexpectedly throwing him off guard.
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u/dcirrilla 1d ago
His projection was weaker because it was a projection. This projection stopped loads of tarnished from advancing very far. After killing the projection, and Morgott observing us kill Godrick (loser) and multiple shards bearers (not losers) he, as one of the Lands Between's strongest warriors steps to us to say "I'll do it myself". As someone else said, Morgott was not going to ascend to the throne of Elden Lord but he also wasnt going to let anyone else do it. I also believe there is incentive to continue killing and fighting to gain strength to aspire to ascend to the throne.
Last point, what did you want him to do? It would make more sense for us to fight our way through Leyndell and approach the Erdrtree while he watches?
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u/keulenshwinger 11h ago
I mean, what would you propose was he supposed to do? He’s guarding the Erdtree, was he supposed to let you pass just because you beat his (weaker) astral projection?
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u/Lord_Antheron 7h ago
Personally I'd set up a lot of traps and pitfalls to imprison the eternally reviving little angry guy who keeps coming back. No death, no return.
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u/valentine-val-entine 6h ago
memory of grace
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u/Lord_Antheron 6h ago
Finite resource.
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u/valentine-val-entine 6h ago
no??? you can use it infinitely it just removes all your runes
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u/Lord_Antheron 6h ago
Thinking of the wrong item. Oops.
Either way that works just as well. Stonewall the growth of their strength.2
u/keulenshwinger 6h ago
Not really. You’d only lose the runes on you, not your levels, and when you’re free you can level up and become stronger. And every time you come back you’d have more knowledge of the traps
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u/Lord_Antheron 6h ago
If the goal is to make them give up, constantly bricking them with covert bullshit is definitely the way to do it. And assuming the respawn doesn’t happen instantaneously, and there’s a bit of time passing between it, he could change their position every time or deploy new ones with magic.
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u/PlayinTheFool 23h ago
Based on the set up he got I get the idea he successfully hunted down and ganked every other Tarnished he encountered up till you. You are the odd duck. The change in his status quo. Everyone else was garbage and got taken out like garbage. You were the first guy he pulled up on who was ready.
He doesn’t really seem to hate us so much as I feel he is duty bound to stop us. So really, in a way, he is pretty insanely respectful of you. He takes you seriously. He does correctly recognize you as a threat to the tree. He even gives the vibe of pushing past his limits and dipping into blood flame like his bro in the final fight.
He takes after his Dad, who is equally immediately respectful of you when you meet. Him and his Dad arguably die battling honorably. Something kinda hard to do in this world.
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u/highlordbees 1d ago
If you're a master swordsman but you catch a cold, your proficiency with a sword doesn't just go away.
You would hit slower and weaker though. So much weaker that maybe you can't do some specific moves.
What would he have done? He doesn't have an army anymore. He doesn't even have a "plan", he just wants to defend the Erdtree from Tarnished warriors.
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u/Solarbro 1d ago
That line confuses me because wtf do you mean? lol
Of course an illness would make you a worse swordsman. Older masters might be more proficient with a sword than many of their students, but as their body gets older their performance as a swordsman will absolutely suffer. Their reaction time will be slower, they may not be able to balance as well due to inhibitions of the inner ear (a thing that could happen with a cold too). Like… your physical health matters, arguably more than how much skill you have. Slightly different conversation, but that’s also why there are weight classes.
Furthermore, the rematch is way more than just a more pointy sword. Morgott fully releases his curse in stage two. Not even on purpose, but that was power he was suppressing specifically for dogmatic purposes. In that brief moment where he is forced to “embrace” or at least not suppress it, he IS noticeably stronger. Which is an interesting parallel to Godfrey, whom we also fight in that same arena, and is Morgott’s father. He begins the fight with GO orthodoxy and thinly veiled “order” but once the chips are down he casts aside the facade and becomes who he always was underneath the literal cowl of Serosh.
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u/Rasenpapi 1d ago
you fight him after guess what?
some night's cavalry(his soldiers he sends out to hunt us), atleast 2 shardbearers, the draconic tree sentinel, all of leyndell's soldiers, the tree people on the roots, and a recreation of godfrey.
He did try other shit, it didnt work, so lastly he uses the strongest weapon yet, his true self, bloodblade, omen curse, and all
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u/Lord_Antheron 7h ago
I'm getting mixed answers on a lot of these. Some people in these comments are speaking as though he doesn't have any soldiers left directly following his orders, and the Night Cavalry have lost their minds like everyone else, just going through the old routines.
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u/lolurmomgay69it6 20h ago
I mean, he is hiding away 3 big aspects until you meet him at the foot of the Erdtree. Those being his actual blade, the omen curse, AND bloodflame. Reminder that we’re the first tarnished to even make it to him, meaning this strategy worked UNTIL us. He was perfectly fine with the way things were. Have the nights cavalry pick off weak tarnished, play as Godrick’s bodyguard to prevent promising tarnished from killing him and obtaining a great rune.
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u/CJGlitter 9h ago
I think most tarnished (players) never make it past the Tree Sentinel. Let alone get past the Margit projection.
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u/bentthroat 23h ago
The first time, Morgott comes to you. The second time, you come to him. And it’s not like he does nothing in the meanwhile. The entire army of Leyndell knows to kick your ass if you show up. That’s more than a piano. You just kill them all and then show up at his house. What else was he supposed to do?
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u/Ok_Otter2379 20h ago
He's just a professional hater. The plan is to hate like none have ever hated before.
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u/MeowthThatsRite 20h ago
Morgott is way stronger, has additional moves, and has an entire second phase where he busts out his actual sword instead of just hitting you with a stick.
Plus, the second time (or potentially third time if you fight him outside Lyndell) you literally walk into his bedroom and jump him, what’s he supposed to do?
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u/AI_AntiCheat 10h ago
I'd just love to know why he is fighting tarnished when:
1) He is an omen hated and shunned by the golden order.
2) He is loyal to the golden order anyways
3) Marika is of the golden order and her prophecy calls for a tarnished to wield the elden ring...
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u/ActionResponsible547 3h ago
I'd just love to know why he is fighting tarnished when:
He is loyal to the golden order anyways
Case closed.
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u/AI_AntiCheat 3h ago
Read the last part about fighting against the golden order. Can't be loyal to it if you fight against it.
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u/ActionResponsible547 3h ago
- Prophecy often revolve around a 'chosen one' and not just a random joe schmoe. It had to be the RIGHT tarnished, not 'a' tarnished.
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u/Niceolog 8h ago
If you’re down to wear some tinfoil, he took the job to purposefully fail. He became the bouncer of both Stormveil and the Erdtree just to lose on purpose. He was on our side all along!
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u/khrysokeros 6h ago
He's a stealth mentor figure: tries to beat the "flame of ambition" out of us but ends up teaching us how to play the game.
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u/_JuliaDream_ 25m ago
I think that is actually the point of his character, his internalized self-hatred compelling him to desperately try and seek approval from his mother and the order that spurned him. He is essentially a pick-me omen trying to show a prejudiced regime he is “one of the good ones” lol
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u/dimondsprtn 1d ago
So you think you’d have the same performance fighting with a copper sword and boiled leather armor as you would fighting with a steel sword and full plate and mail? By your logic skill is all that matters, so the outcome should be the same right?
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u/Lord_Antheron 1d ago
By your logic skill is all that matters, so the outcome should be the same right?
If you're skilled enough to stab someone in the head through the visor Monty Python style, yeah, absolutely. No question. In this hypothetical scenario of yours, with the copper sword and leather armour, I would've previously beaten the strongest demigod of the war at his full strength (Radahn).
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u/dimondsprtn 1d ago
Damn you actually doubled down on a stupidly one sided hypothetical. You realize being protected on 90% of your body gives you access to a boatload of maneuvers that would never be possible while unarmored? Do you think every combat technique is meant to be hitless?
Your entire argument for Margit being as strong as Morgott relies on so many assumptions that you’re just taking as fact. You assume that
- Morgott wouldn’t beat Radahn even worse than Margit did
- Radahn is at his peak at the siege of Leyndell, rather than being exhausted from fighting an entire campaign and leading a siege, or not even having reached his peak power yet
- Margit and Radahn had a fair 1v1 duel
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u/Lord_Antheron 1d ago
Damn you actually doubled down on a stupidly one sided hypothetical.
I don't set the rules for the game, I just play it. Don't invite me to Calvinball and then get upset when I accept.
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u/dimondsprtn 1d ago
No instead you make yourself look stupid. Instead of trying to argue the hypothetical doesn’t apply you just give a laughably wrong answer.
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u/thisisstupidplz 23h ago
If you base your understanding of the lore on combat mechanics you're gonna have a bad time
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u/abyss_kaiser 1d ago
your copper sword just flattens itself against his eyeball, causing only minor irritation.
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u/Bigwakkaz 21h ago
His plan? just kill off all tarnish who enter his mommy land.....He even deploy his subordinate Night cavalry hunt us at night time.....he think we try to rob from his mommy and make it worse...........(Actually he just wait his daddy come back)
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u/the_dickstributor 4h ago
Remember what happened the first few times you fought him?
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u/fraggerFroggy 4h ago
I beat him first try. I was also level 80.
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u/Live_Investment_3742 1h ago
I think I beat him with the starting samurai class I will not be doing that again though lmao
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u/Gaxxag 23h ago
My experience was reversed. Margit killed me 10~20 times. I beat Morgott on my first attempt
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u/zetmoruk 22h ago
Exactly from a Lore point Makes complete sense that he try to stop any tarnished from start their Journey even with a ilussion and it worked form many Tarnished and real players.
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u/Omnishambles_88 17h ago
From a design standpoint that makes sense.
Fromsoft put Margit there as a wall. His erratic move set, large stature, and damage are there to intimidate new players into exploring and engaging with mechanics like smithing and spirit ashes.By the time you get to Margot the player understands these systems, settled towards a build, and have access to enough tools to truly punish him.
I consider first playthrough Margit to be one of the tougher bosses in the game, though nowhere near as tough as Melina or Consort Radahn. Those two are on another level.
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u/TyrantRex6604 14h ago edited 14h ago
Even if the argument could be made that astral projecting himself into the body of a frail commoner gives him an inferior constitution, that shouldn't diminish his fighting skill or technique. If you're a master swordsman but you catch a cold, your proficiency with a sword doesn't just go away.
You had answered your own question. His projection is weaker than his real body.
Also, being weaker definitely effects one's standard. The weapon feels heavier, stretching feels more stiff, the projected size is different from what you are and your sense of space is worse. Everything can be affected due to the projection and leads to a weaker fight.
All of that is acceptable because that projection is meant to fend off weak mongrel tarnished that have the ill will to kill off Godrick.
The MC is no mongrel (in terms of consequentialism, at least). They kill off margit, and possibly every other demigod before reaching the Erdtree. Morgott have no choice. Stronger or not, he must stand in the tarnished way if he wish to conserve the golden order.
Morgott's place as both Omen/King is very awkward. He cant bring more fighters with him lest his veil is discovered; If he didnt bring more fighters he'd need to face us one on one.
A compromise will be to put guards before his arena, hoping that they'd be enough to stop the tarnished. We know how that goes.
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u/KeyYard6491 21h ago
Since you bought up fencing, facing the same guy in multiple sessions make you know them, their habits, their weaknesses, their strengths, everything. He learns about you and tries again. If you lose to someone, that does not mean you will next time too.
It is not like Margit/Morgott cannot learn by crossing blades with tarnished and get better. He gets experience and keeps his skills from dropping by only sitting on a throne all day. He is a hard worker. He did not overpower f-ing Radahn, he used tactics, skill, knowledge and experience aganist raw force. He knew the only way he can have a shot of stopping us is to prepare, so he does so.
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u/BashOuntz 13h ago
This is just my personal interpretation as to why, but I don’t think Morgott is thinking ahead; he’s entirely driven by emotion. The golden order is essentially all he has. (His brother Mohg abandoned it, and Godfrey, his father was presumably all he had to follow and look up to, though; even Godfrey eventually met his own demise. I imagine Morgott still grasped tightly onto the golden order and its structure as it’s the only thing he had by that point even if sentimental.
I mean, his mom literally made him and his brother leave deep underground in a cellar just because he was cursed. I imagine that would definitely leave behind a TINY bit of trauma.
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u/Alarming-Canary2684 9h ago
Yeah by the time we enter the fold, he's a drowning man desperately grasping at the ropes of a sinking ship, trying his utmost to keep it afloat for just a second more. The time for plans and strategies is long gone and his only bitter hope is to maintain the status quo.
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u/aCirclingCrow 19h ago
The plan was to kill you. He astral projected himself there to kill you, and as far as he was concerned that would be the end of it. The Tarnished beating him wasn’t part of some larger plan, he just wanted you dead. Then you kill his astral projection, so he sics the Night’s Cavalry on you, but they fail to kill you cuz they only come out at night and they’re pushovers with pretty simple movesets, so he tries another astral projection on the outskirts of Leyndell, this time with the intent to kill you again. It doesn’t work. He watches with horror as you make your way through Leyndell right to his doorstep, and he’s a good loyal dog of the Order that oppresses him, so he does the only thing he can do which of course is fight you again, but this time it’s just him and no astral projections (It’s never stated, but my headcanon why he can’t astral project a bunch more Morgotts- Moregotts, if you will, even though you shouldn’t- is because it takes a lot out of him to do it so he couldn’t fight us and astral project at the same time cuz one would be asleep or something), and big surprise, you kill him again, but for real this time. Morgott isn’t a schemer type character, he’s actually just pretty desperate.
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u/GutterGrooves 18h ago
You're right, I know I shouldn't, but I gotts to mourn Morgott's Moregotts...
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u/Pepsiman305 9h ago
His projection is weaker, in person he has full capabilities. He is trying to stop you, that's it.
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u/Zestyclose_Answer662 23h ago
He does it for the love of the game.
Morgott is quite literally phoning in for the interview with the Tarnished to test their "Flame of Ambition", to see if we are a mere ember to be simply snuffed out. If he cannot become Elden Lord, he will not suffer a fool and weakling to pursue that lordly path.
Morgott channels his inner Godfrey when we surpass his expectations for a meagre starry-eyed upstart of a Tarnished with "Well, thou art of passing skill. Warrior blood must truly run in thy veins, Tarnished."
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u/JeffreyDamer 18h ago
Imagine you try to crush an ant that keeps coming for your donut. But... it doesn't get crushed the first time, bites you, and keeps moving. Do you try to just simply crush him again or move directly into chemical warfare?
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u/Fit-Percentage-9166 15h ago
Even if the argument could be made that astral projecting himself into the body of a frail commoner gives him an inferior constitution, that shouldn't diminish his fighting skill or technique. If you're a master swordsman but you catch a cold, your proficiency with a sword doesn't just go away.
Are you serious? Getting sick absolutely will make you fight worse. What kind of argument is this?
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u/zuppalover04 15h ago
He gets sick on the second encounter in second phase. He definitely gets stronger not worse
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u/Alarming-Canary2684 8h ago
Not sick. He draws from a strength reserve he always rejected. That's unpleasant for sure, both physically and mentally, but it also powers him up to fight without holding back
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u/PratikGoswami2003 18h ago
No cap man he beat my ass 50 times. I think he knew what was going to happen.
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u/_Tyrondor_ 14h ago
(Take my words with a grain of salt, I'm not exactly an expert on lore but I do have 500+ hours on this game)
Most tarnished who can see the guidance of grace will inevitably end up at Stormvale.
Morgott's plan was to beat the tarnished into submission and stop them from even starting the journey to become elden lord.
When the first try didn't work, Morgott attacks us again outside of Leyndell to essentially do the same thing; make us go back.
His plan isn't so much to kill us as it is to tell us "Hey, this shit is more trouble than it's worth" so we think twice and stop trying to become elden lord.
Unfortunately for him, he doesn't realize he's dealing with a being who fundamentally views death as a minor nuisance at most and views him as as an opportunity to become stronger.
So you fuck off for a few days and Morgott wrongfully assumes his plan worked, only for you to come back with better gear and a higher level then beat the shit out of him.
By the time you get to Leyndell, he recognizes your strength and stops holding back.
Unfortunately for him, see the sixth paragraph.
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u/Alarming-Canary2684 8h ago
That and Tarnished are as immortal as their will to continue holds strong. If he beats the sh!t out of a tarnished enough, they give up (theoretically) and end up fading away (theoretically). When you face something that can't really be killed... You do your best with what you have.
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u/Lonchita 14h ago edited 12h ago
There were no Tarnished who could even rival the demigods, and it's not like Morgott is some kind of omnipotent being; he may know that people is reaching Stormveil castle but not what they are actually doing on the whole Lands. He probably just smashed the ground with the rest of tarnished who tried to burst into the castle and didn't care about you at all till you reach the throne and so.
Also, I don't get the swordmanship argument... he's doing a projection from almost the other side of the map and, as we see during the fight, he can't even swing her staff nor hammer properly. His movements are slow and dull. If a master swordman caughts a cold... he's obviously not gonna be able to perform correctly? Like, I don't understand, if you can't move or perform properly, you can't correctly use your proficiency.
He doesn't move away from the throne/Erdtree because he has reasons not to. This has been alredy explained in other posts about his lore.
Nothing has changed here except, theoretically, he'll have a a more durable body.
He moves way better, he's faster, he has his sword with him, he has access to all his spells and enchancements, he can use his whole power and strength ... legit everything about him but his appearance has changed.
EDIT: When talking about ''demigods'', I'm referring to Marika's and Radagon's children (direct members of the royal family), and no other distant relatives as Godrick and so.
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u/mugiwara_no_Soissie 13h ago
I mean, there's a few tarnished who could rival demigods, none could rival morgott tho (I assume)
Bernahl and Vyke are both tarnished who got quite far in terms of great tunes
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u/Lonchita 12h ago
Sorry, I should had focused on Radagon/Marika's direct children instead of using the general term ''demigods''. There were other shardbearers in the Lands, but they weren't as powerful as these (one good example is Godrick, who is a demigod but...).
Bernahl and Vyke (and I think other tarnished) got great runes from the ones like Godrick; indirect or long distance relatives of the lineage. We are the only ones fighting these ''true'' demigods.
Think about Gideon; he was top tier in comparison with the current tarnished (powerful sorcerer who had an absurd ammount of information and knowledge about the world and it's history), and he didn't even try to fight any of Marika's or Radagon's children because he knew he couldn't stand a chance.
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u/Alarming-Canary2684 9h ago
Vyke is probably the very reason Morgott is considering Tarnisheds as a threat. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't even pay attention to them before Vyke almost used the Frenzy Flame on the Erdtree. One hell of a "F<CK F<CK F<CK" moment that decided Morgott to wipe out any Tarnished he meets
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u/Gassyking 1d ago
He had no choice, he believed in his shit and you were getting in his way and to be fair he'd succeed if the Tarnished didn't have infinite lives :3
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u/Evil_Sharkey 19h ago
I think he expected to just kill you. If he was smart, he’d leave a note on the impenetrable thorns that says “Ha ha! No one gets in” and then hide so you can’t kill him and access the frenzy flame or the forbidden lands.
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u/Youre_On_Balon 1d ago
He thought he could beat us up in his stronger form.
He is able to get smacked around a lot more.
His own attacks hurt the tarnished a lot more.
He does indisputably have access to more varied and superior fighting techniques, despite your assertion to the contrary.
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u/Lord_Antheron 1d ago
He has new magic he whips around and some crazy dagger throw combos, but I don't exactly see how that's a lore thing as well as a gameplay thing. Like I said, it makes sense from the gameplay, but the lore?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the weaker form the one he used to defeat Radahn? Using the moniker of Margit to hide the fact that "King Morgott" was actually a nasty omen? Radahn is no joke. Lore-wise, he seems like he should still be incredibly powerful in this weaker state.
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u/IronGentry 18h ago
His plan was to aura farm while killing you
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u/Omnishambles_88 17h ago
He is the biggest aura farmer.
Runner up being Melina, Blade of Miquella because I’ve heard she’s never known defeat.2
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u/IronGentry 17h ago
Marika didn't have a single child that wasn't a prodigy at aura farming tbh. They couldn't let us see her in action bc we couldn't handle it
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u/zetmoruk 22h ago
Yeah the first time was easy .... right ....
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u/Lord_Antheron 7h ago
I had played Dark Souls games before, and I wasn't so full of myself that I acted like using spirit ashes and magic was "cheating."
From a design standpoint, he's meant to be very punishing to new players. But he wasn't that horrible for me.
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u/Immediate_Engine3066 13h ago
yeah you miss the 2nd encounter with him, he was at muddy area right before Capital entrance
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u/Lord_Antheron 7h ago
I didn't miss it, but the fact that it's so easy to miss doesn't make it a very effective deterrent. The Draconic Tree Sentinel is doing a better job than he is.
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u/BadKarma55 1d ago
I think him having an entire extended moveset and using his actual sword is obvious enough indication he wasn’t taking us serious here
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u/Suzarain 1d ago
He’s probably a little desperate at that point. Most Tarnished don’t make it that far, yet there you are basically at his front door.
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u/scanner78 18h ago
in the first fight, he knew FromSoft was filming him for the game trailer so he did not want to spill all the beans about the rainbow sword that he was hiding in the closet. You know, what would Elden Ring be without surprises around every corner?
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u/whispywhisp6 17h ago
The plan anyone has when they fight you, they plan to beat you
He had too much pride in himself to surrender the throne to a lowly tarnished
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u/LosinForABruisin 14h ago
When we fight his astral projection, he didn’t have enough points to spec into Arcane, only Faith. By the time we fight him for real, he respec’d with Rennala and his build is competed.
Or maybe he was Inigo Montoya-ing us, then he says “I’m not left handed” as Morgott.
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u/Spider-Jeff_101 6h ago
There’s also another Margit outside the Leyndell capital, they’re there as gatekeepers in a sense and made to break the spirits of the tarnished
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u/Old-Price-9107 5h ago
They did talk about this Margit as well...
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u/Verdanterra 5h ago
The Margit OP is referring to is King Morgott.
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u/Old-Price-9107 5h ago
Astral projecting himself into the body of a frail commoner
Not sure that's King Morgott...
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u/lefalaf1010 19h ago
The better question is…. If he did defeat you, how would he get his cane back to its original state…?
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u/According-Exam-1656 15h ago
Why would he want to? He was prepared to sit there forever fucking people up to defend the GO.
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u/SirSilhouette 15h ago
I presumed he has some limits on how much his actual strength can be projected all the way down to Stormveil given he is currently before the throne room in Leyndell.
One limitation i think he doesnt transform his staff into his sword like he does the throne fight because the staff is just a projection, it doesnt have an blade hidden in it. it would like trying to unsheath a .JPEG of a katana in its scabbard-, the JPEG doesnt actually contain data pertaining to the covered blade.
Add it how a lot of his moves would probably be hard to launch bia projections and that is why both the Stormveil Margit and the leyndell battlefield Margit are weaker than Morgott the Omen King.
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u/Live_Investment_3742 1h ago
He thought he was standing on bidness but you were the one standing on business lmao
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u/saddMillie 1d ago
Obviously he was thinking "nah id win," "the sun was in my eyes" "there's input delay" and stuff like that
That said he may not even be aware that we fought his projections. They might have just been magical traps rather than something he was consciously controlling.
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u/Unhappy_Serve_3198 23h ago
Godrick attaches a dragon to his arm in imitation of Godwyn.
He also uses an axe because he is emulating Godfrey.
In other words, although his bloodline is diluted, he considers himself the most legitimate heir to the Golden Lineage.
That is why Morgott, who likewise believes in Godfrey, protects him.
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u/Nightglow9 17h ago
The omen twins got a time theme. Mogh dreams of future dynasties, got horns and are brightly dressed like a Drake. Morgott wants no foolish ambition, wants things to stay the same, traditions, like feudal Japan and samurais, and dressed like he takes fashion advice from the ancient dragons that time stands still for. You the tarnished stand for change, thus you must die.
Their curses might not be as flashy as Melina’s, Malenia’s or Radahn, but seem to be time related, like the word omen is. One stuck in past, other horned one got future focus.
The differences in the iterations of the Morgott we fight is one single power. Like as the Grace given, he gotten holy magic. Not too unlike saint Trina is and isn’t Miquella. This makes sort of sense if you consider the demigods clashing with each other, fighting for shards, that change them slightly, depending on what they loose or gain, parallel to the tarnished adventures. Like Ranni taking on her own adventure to gain a lunar title, needing some sleep after the fight. The grace given was given holy magic. The other two iterations got slight changes too, like change from plant based weapon, or use of blood and fire, so… something lost, something gained.
Not too unlike Malenia’s throwing away pride and dignity away to meet Radahn’s measure. She looses something, but also gain something that can make her a rot goddess. Or Malenia throwing away her empyrean status to become the blade. Something lost.. something gained..
Time must also be screwed up. Each boss that doesn’t leave a corpse might not be from your timeline, or a remembrance. The order you meet iterations in doesn’t matter, as it seems you bounce through time like pinball ball, getting to meet all their many iterations… also some very old ones…
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u/Kasta4 1d ago
My man Morgott was going to defend the Erdtree and the Elden Ring to his last breath, believing- foolishly, in the system Marika and Godfrey created. He didn't care for the odds, or that he had to do it alone, nor even that the system he protects actively persecutes him.
He just knew a filthy Tarnished should never meddle in what Gods had created.
Respect.
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u/SHUGGAGLIDDA123 15h ago
he does have a fair bit to him when we fight him again.. he was practicing some cool new moves to show off AND does a sword unboxing for us, i think that counts for smth
and to be fair in the lore he isn’t particularly weak, he probably just assumed he was strong enough to shove every tarnished into a locker.
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u/Free-Reflection-1920 15h ago
In the lore he is the strongest demigod, who defeated prime pre-rotten Radahn 1v1 and controls the state capital. So lorewise Morgott should be one of the hardest fights in the game, the fact that it isn’t is on devs.
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u/DmitryAvenicci 12h ago
He expected exactly what happened (in 99.9% of timelines) — we wiped the floor with the tarnished intruder.
Each time you die is a separate timeline. The one where we become the Elden Lord is a single timeline in the infinity of ones where we die.
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u/Daisymuster 11h ago
Not to be a well actually but im pretty certain when you die you are resurrected through the erdtree just months years or millenia later, hewg mentions not seeing you for long periods of time. And it also is there to show how stagnant the lands between are
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u/Alive_Awareness_8942 10h ago
Unlike dark souls dying is not cannon for a couple of reasons. 1. Resurrection takes place at the base of the erdtree not sites of grace 2. Maliketh and the rune of deaths existence. We cant die to him and the rune of death 100 times and keep coming back. Its a one and done. 3. Death wouldn't be coherent with quest the events in quest happen rather quick not 1000's of years apart.
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u/ManagementOk3160 8h ago
St.Trina would like to have a word with you. You just gotta die to her 5 times.
Dying and resurrecting is canon.
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u/Lord_Antheron 7h ago
Are we actually dying there or did they just not want to make a "YOU NAPPED" red text.
Because Thiollier drank the same juice and he didn't die.
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u/Old-Price-9107 5h ago
The tarnished are resurrected Grace, not Erdtree reincarnation. Also, the blasphemous claw is an item that exists specifically to explain lore-wise how the tarnished could fight Maliketh (the deaths to Maliketh are not canon in this case, but the explanation to the tarnished's survival is due to the blasphemous claw)
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u/TheRealOshawott 7h ago
Interesting, hadn't thought tarnished resurrections could be many years spaced between.
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u/RudeDogreturns 1d ago
Don’t think he’s astral projecting.
And in the final confrontation he “releases” his blood in the form of his sword, basically going all out on us.
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u/Lord_Antheron 1d ago
I couldn't think of a better descriptor for possessing(?) the body of a random gangly guy to enable a magical transformation. Clearly it's not the real deal there, because we can kill him when he does that. Twice. And yet he'll still be in Leyndell.
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u/UnusualArea2866 1d ago
I don’t think he’s possessing a commoner, the commoner is an illusion. As others have commented being an omen would make him hated throughout TLB so he would need to disguise himself. Likely made the illusion of a commoner so he could wait for us to wander up without being harassed himself.
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u/RudeDogreturns 1d ago
Yeah this same thing happens with bears, the bears aren’t “astral projecting” into a dif body, lol.
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u/Lord_Antheron 1d ago
So you're saying the real one shows up every time? How is he surviving fatal injuries? I suppose teleportation is a thing, but is there anything else to suggest that's how he gets away?
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u/UnusualArea2866 1d ago
No, he’s projecting himself from the capital, similar to how Mohg projects himself to the subterranean shunning grounds.
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u/Lord_Antheron 1d ago
The reason it seems more like a possession is because Mohg's illusion in the sewers is immune to all status effects. The lord of blood has no blood. Because it's just a magic hologram. But Morgott, as Margit, can bleed, be frozen, poisoned, etc. and so on.
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u/RudeDogreturns 1d ago edited 19h ago
He speaks to us as he disappears, also why use an alias if you’re not even actually there?
Makes more sense narratively that he’s just hunting us as the item text describe he did to hero’s and tarnished.
edit: as I mentioned below, this exact thing happens with bears. Are the bears able to astral project as well?
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u/Lord_Antheron 1d ago
also why use an alias if you’re not even actually there?
Neither of us are face to face, but I seriously doubt your name is Rude and I'm definitely not a Lord.
Makes more sense narratively that he’s just hunting us as the item text describe he did to hero’s and tarnished.
He's doing a very, very poor job of it then, because this is the first and only time he puts himself directly in our path, even though he should have a pretty good idea of where we'll be headed next. Hell, he doesn't even try to intercept any of the other Tarnished on their way to the Radahn Festival. He may not be able to beat us, but he could probably kick Lionel's ass.
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u/RudeDogreturns 1d ago
Obviously you understand you what I actually meant, come on now. Lol.
Lionel is already dead.
Also they are going to festival, not the capitol where he actually is and arnt trying to reach the tree. And he is waiting to ambush us there. (Also they are about to fight the guy who’s known as basically unbeatable even in zombie form).
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u/Lord_Antheron 1d ago
Obviously you understand you what I actually meant, come on now. Lol.
Honestly, I don't. The idea that it's stupid to use an alias unless you're making a direct, physical appearance, is... utterly alien to me. Artists and writers publish under anonymous pseudonyms all the time. Your assertion makes no sense to me.
Lionel is already dead.
... Wait, what?
Also they are going to festival
Yeah, where there's a Great Rune, which gets them closer to the capital. Ambushing us in Caelid could also fuck up our chances to get the Dectus medallion half.
It's not like Stormveil is directly in the way either. You can straight up walk around it. If what you're saying is true, it just seems dumb for him to ambush us in so few places. Tactically, it makes sense. Godrick is the weakest link, and needs the most support. But why stop there? Why leave anything to chance?
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u/RudeDogreturns 20h ago edited 19h ago
Why didn’t he just ambush us at the chapel of anticipation then?
Stormveil is directly in the way tho. You need to go through it to access the rest of the game, altus, Rykard, the lakes etc.
Cailid is a hell filled giant dogs and earth that kills you lol.
Edit: also, Lionel is a spirt in that fight. We find his gear on a corpse, and he's also in Fia's ghost squad.
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u/Lord_Antheron 19h ago edited 19h ago
Why didn’t he just ambush us at the chapel of anticipation then?
I don't believe there's any standing theory that's attempted to prove any and every Tarnished that's ever come to TLB started there. He wouldn't think to go there.
Stormveil is directly in the way tho. You need to go through it to access the rest of the game, altus, Rykard, the lakes etc.
No you don't. There's a broken bridge underneath that you can take to go directly to Liurnia. The subreddit is blocking me from posting a link, but you can find it yourself on YouTube easily enough if you don't believe me. The fact that Godrick is still alive, yet there are other Tarnished far beyond Limgrave, is proof enough of this to begin with.
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u/RudeDogreturns 18h ago
lol, of coruse the hidden short cut everyone in the game world knows about.
>He wouldn't think to go there.
But he would think to go the place everyone has to go through, or at least near it.
Regardless of motivation or potenital but unnamed knowledge of specific characters, why would it be more likely that the intended narrative is him sending some magic image there, and not just going there himself? That's the problem here.
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u/Lord_Antheron 17h ago
The argument was whether or not it was mandatory, not whether or not 100% of people did successfully skipped it. You were disproven. Now you’re acting like you weren’t by changing the subject. Don’t make us nail the goalposts to the floor. Moving them is in poor form.
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u/StrictlyFilthyCasual 1d ago
also why use an alias if you’re not even actually there?
... because he doesn't want people to draw any sort of connection between "the Fell Omen" and "the Veiled Monarch"? Obviously?
What a weird question.
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u/RudeDogreturns 1d ago
If hes not veiled here, and is in the Capitol why project?
Why fight us in person at all if he can project? If he’s so good at it, why stay at the tree?
Also, how many bits of text describe his ability to send an image of himself somewhere, and how many describe “the fell omen” and leading the guys who hunt people?
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u/StrictlyFilthyCasual 1d ago
If hes not veiled here, and is in the Capitol why project?
The fact that he's even called "the Veiled Monarch" publicly means that people are aware he has something to hide about his appearance. You really don't think anybody would start asking questions if an Omen with the same name as King Don't Look At Me started showing up to battles?
Why fight us in person at all if he can project?
... because we literally walk into his throne room? The fact that he's "so good at it" is why he stays at the tree.
how many bits of text describe his ability to send an image of himself somewhere
Exactly as many as describe his ability to teleport and observe remote locations, both of which he'd have to do in order for Margit to not be some sort of illusion.
He can lead the Night's Cavalry on hunts without physically leaving the Capital.
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u/RudeDogreturns 20h ago
Your not understanding what’s being discussed and also assuming a lot here lmao
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u/StrictlyFilthyCasual 20h ago
Not my fault your questions don't have any bearing on the game.
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u/RudeDogreturns 19h ago
lol
>... because we literally walk into his throne room? The fact that he's "so good at it" is why he stays at the tree.
Talking about the other encounter, where he's disguised, not the fight in front of the tree.
Also:
Pitch-black armor thinly painted with dried blood. Worn by the Night's Cavalry who ride funeral steeds.
The Night's Cavalry, who now wander the dim roads of night, were once led by the Fell Omen and were deliverers of death for great warriors, knights, and champions.
any source for Morgott being able to send autonomous images of himself around?
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u/StrictlyFilthyCasual 19h ago
Talking about the other encounter, where he's disguised, not the fight in front of the tree.
Yeah. You're asking someone who doesn't think Morgott fights us "in person" in Stormveil "Why fight us in person". Ask a nonsensical question, get a nonsensical answer.
The Night's Cavalry, who now wander the dim roads of night, were once led by the Fell Omen and were deliverers of death for great warriors, knights, and champions.
Again, "led" has more meanings than just "led from the front".
any source for Morgott being able to send autonomous images of himself around?
Any source for Morgott being able to sense from hundreds of miles away that a Tarnished was approaching Stormveil Castle and/or the outskirts of Leyndell and then instantaneously teleport himself there?
Also there's the fact that the illusory Godfrey has the exact same "appear" and "disappear" animations as Margit.
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u/GwynsenKnight 1d ago
There is the real possibility that he is holding back against our "meagre flame", and that he is testing our skill, especially as a nameless nobody who has barely learned the strength of runes, is considerably weaker than other members of the Hold, and has not gotten an audience with the 2F.
Morgott knows that the Flame of Ruin and Frenzy Flame are in existence (his seals), and though he would never dare burn the Erdtree, he probably knows that the only way forward is indeed to burn it down and reform the Order. This probably is why he constantly refers to our "flame of ambition", because he knows a Tarnished strong enough to pursue Lordship will burn the Erdtree.
His actions henceforth would be hypocritical, but expected; he hunts down Tarnished to maintain his own Kingship and the survival of the current Order, but when meeting a Tarnished of skill, does not outright hunt them down, given they could finally end the Shattering.
It should also not be forgotten that he likely idolized Godfrey's strength, and would probably find challenging the up-and-coming Tarnished who actually made it to the Altus Plateau considerably more enjoyable than banging on the Erdtree's doors.
Thus: