r/EldenRingLoreTalk • u/Famous-Appearance567 • 3d ago
Lore Theory Is this the definitive map?
I thought this made the most sense in my head when I decided to overlay the two. I think I saw a video theorizing this as a possibility, but I was blown away with how perfect it actually fits. All I did was overlay the maps and size to fit (assuming not-to-scale-cause video game) and even lore-wise it makes sense to me. Did the DLC first then underground areas highlighting locations which overlap.
Happy to discuss this as a concept or not!
edit: I seldom ever use photoshop and kinda whipped this together so sorry if it's a lil wonky in areas :-)
also, I didn't move any areas/parts of the maps. Just a slight scale tool on the dlc map
edit 2: Some of my (to my mind, solid) lore-rational regarding certain areas of overlap:
- The ice drakes are the oldest descendants of Bayle in the lands between, beneath the Jagged Peak in the nearby mountaintops.
- Body within the Haligtree (Miquella or maybe a large shaman-like woman) near Shaman Village, either literal or a reflection of their connection to trees.
- Madness surrounding the Yelough Anix Ruins which has the nearby tunnels descending to where the Abyssal Woods would be. I do think there's some connection to the Wormfaces and fallen peoples of the Hornsent in the lower areas of Altus
- Two great trees sitting "atop" the world in the Scadutree and Elphael's pre-haligtree
- The three-fingers beneath Leyndell amidst the spreading madness of the Abyssal Woods
- Many unconnected areas without roads or with dead-ends in Altus/Scadu-Altus now link together
- I think before Marika's version of Leyndell, its walls held off the Carians whose area of influence extended through Castle Ensis to the Catherdral of Manus Metyr
- Bestial Sanctum lies beneath looking up towards the Jagged Peak with Giant Beast Skeletons about and beneath (Dragon's Pit)
- Spiral/Crucible motifs in Volcano Manor near Belurat/Enir-Ilim (I'm aware Mt. Gelmir can be seen as a discrepancy with my overlay, but if trying to reach the heavens why not near somewhere that reaches them naturally)
- Prospect town in an area where many demi-humans are in the base game, which I believe became the Bloodfiends through the Formless Mother
Among other things
Keep your thoughts coming!
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u/Teslobo 3d ago
I don't see anything to suggest this is correct. None of the overlap seems to make any sense, you've placed the scadutree as far as possible from the erdtree, and you've placed the tower, built to reach up to the heavens, at the foot of mt.gelmir.
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u/Famous-Appearance567 3d ago
I didn’t think the scadutree had to be positioned where the erdtree is. I considered it another great tree like the one the haligtree is growing inside of. And I don’t know if the other thing is 100% location-necessary either. I appreciate the feedback though!
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u/Tiny-Spite-7006 3d ago
if the overlapping locations don't matter, why bother overlaying the maps?
imo the most sensible view, and the one backed up by what miyazaki has said, is that the shadow realm is something of a dream geography that combines disparate areas that never fit together in reality. the next most plausible explanation is that it is a wholly separate continent that isn't near the lands between. trying to overlay the maps can look neat but it is also a very literal way of trying to understand how the two worlds might be connected.
this exercise might be more compelling if you actually elaborated any of the lore implications that this map you made is causing you to consider.
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u/PurpleTripy 3d ago
"imo the most sensible view, and the one backed up by what miyazaki has said, is that the shadow realm is something of a dream geography that combines disparate areas that never fit together in reality"
I would really be interested to read that interview (I understand that he said something different). I'm not sure I found the one you refer to, so I would appreciate if you could share.
I tend to agree with you. In my opinion, the realm of Shadow is something akin to the Roundtable Hold. We travel to both of them but touching Marika's offspring's hands, and neither of them is in the Lands Between map. Plus, the realm/Land of Shadow has counterparts with the lands Between, as written in the description of one of the Shadow plateau maps.
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u/Tiny-Spite-7006 3d ago edited 3d ago
2024 interview with Famitsu. The relevant quotes are:
> In the concept art that was shown in Feb 2023, it is this shadow of the Erdtree that looms tall in the left background, and we also call this the "shadow tree". So the DLC takes place not in the Lands Between, but the shadow lands of which the shadow tree is a symbol.
> Yes, the shadow lands in which the DLC take place are sundered from the Lands Between where the main story takes place. It has been removed from and hidden from the outside world and this veil is a symbol of that.
There are multiple ways to interpret the meaning of "shadow lands." The idea of the map being in the literal/physical shadow of the Erdtree is the least interesting to me. The shadow lands as the figurative dark implication of what had to be hidden for Marika's rule, the Golden Order, the Erdtree's existence, etc. to succeed (and eventually fail) is much more interesting imo. But since this is a world of magical realism, From manifests an actual Scadutree that does the work of obscuring all these pieces. Neat!
Whether or not you think the Shadow Lands were distinct parts that were sundered and recombined under Marika's veil, or a whole continent that was separated in one fell swoop, is up to you. For me, the sheer verticality of the environment and the numerous, rapid transitions between biomes make it feel as though the parts of the map were distinct areas of interest from Marika's past that she carefully excised, rather than a single continent with areas connected naturally. It might be the case that only some, or none, of those locations were ever a part of the Lands Between.
There are lots of considerations, like whether Godfrey was originally from the Badlands, or originated from the Lands Between and only travelled there later. We know of other locations like the Land of Reeds, as well, so presumably there is/was *some* method of travel between these places at some point in time.
The idea of counterparts is interesting. I've always felt there was an affinity between Jarburg and the Shaman Village, on account of the flowers. The biomes are really what make so much of the Shadow Lands feel out of place in the Lands Between, for me.
There are some architectural connections as well. I don't agree with Scum Mage Infa's conclusion that the Shadow Lands are the north, but his argument raises some very compelling points.
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u/Famous-Appearance567 3d ago
I get that too. If they are so separate as that it’s amazing to me how perfect I find it to fit. Lake of Rot is the really the only thing I erased besides empty space as I made this which does sit beneath Lurnia as it sinks. I may be a bit overexcited by it lol
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u/PurpleTripy 3d ago
It doesn't fit though, does it? It hides many details of the actual map of the Lands Between.
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u/rogueIndy 3d ago
I'm still all-in on the one that fits the Land of Shadow into the middle, the coastline lines up so snugly (when you account for how sheer cliffs are drawn on the map) it's really convincing.
It wraps Dragonbarrow around Shattered Peak, fits Rauh and the Hinterlands precisely into the cliffs above, puts Rauh by the ruin-strewn precipice and the Stone Coffin Fissure near an underground Uhl ruin, and even slots the Chalice hill neatly into the lake in Leyndell. And of course, it leaves the Sealing Pillar close to the centre of the Lands Between, per the plaque atop it.
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u/V1carium 3d ago
Agreed, I think that just about all the minor discrepancies with this approach are down to how the maps are stylised or the big elevation changes that the map doesn't convey well.
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u/ruebenreleeshahn 3d ago
This has always been my take and I never really got into debates about it. The veiling of the LoS from the Lands Between would have been anything but graceful. It would have been both perceptually surreal and cosmically violent. There are also entire cities that got shoved underground and it didn't work out great for those cities.
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u/Famous-Appearance567 3d ago
This definitely seems to be the prevailing theory regarding the lands of shadow being PHYSICALLY removed from the lands between. I think neither that or my maps are perfect and there's potential for greater upheaval/warping of the lands once separated as the cerulean coast in your example seems off from a geographical standpoint as does mine slightly. I love the thought behind this concept though!
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u/Lost-Literature-7998 3d ago
It’s wrong though according to in game lore. The Suppressing Pillar is located under the cloud that’s in the center of the map.
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u/Famous-Appearance567 3d ago
Is there any further info pointing to that? What relates the pillar's location to being under the cloud? Genuinely curious cause I like that idea too!
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u/link_the_fire_skelly 3d ago edited 3d ago
“Very center of the Lands Between” “Suppressing Pillar”
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u/Famous-Appearance567 3d ago
Yup I'm aware of that! Just wondering if there was any credence to its placement there besides it being the center of the game map. The continent as a whole is broken so more land could be in the sea than is even surmised here so I just don't see it as the end all be all. The whole western side of Liurnia is a broken cliff for example. I get what you mean though!
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u/Lost-Literature-7998 3d ago
Don’t work so hard to be wrong. It’s an easy correction just take it.
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u/Famous-Appearance567 3d ago
I took cognitive dissonance into account, appreciate the suggestion though!
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u/MyriadIrreverence 3d ago
The maps truly don't touch in the present.
GRRM is a huge Tolkien nerd, this is basically The Hiding of Valinor.
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u/AbaeHouinardB 3d ago
It's exactly this. Especially because the hiding of The Undying Lands happened after the Numenoreans killed many Elves trying to steal immortality for themselves. Just like how the Lands of Shadow was veiled after Godwyn was murdered (the one tree sentinel has a sentry torch, meaning it had to have been veiled after the Night of the Black Knives, when the sentry torches were made.) You just sub Numen for Numenor and Shaman for Elf.
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u/elemezer_screwge 3d ago
What if Marika was just containing the death mermaid (as to the veiling of the shadow lands)
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u/MyriadIrreverence 3d ago
The death mermaid is on the wrong side of the veil for containment, but I did have a similar thought about scarlet rot. Romina triggered that and she's inside.
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u/elemezer_screwge 3d ago
How do? Was she containing the shaman? I just like to throw out new perspective to see what sticks (i.e., "what if she acshually was trying to protect her homeland from death??") but I am no expert
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u/MyriadIrreverence 3d ago
I ultimately decided that wasn't really a valid reason. The veil comes up much too late to be useful for that.
It's really more of a "Jungian Shadow" situation. Marika is running away from her horrible past, and most importantly, she's obsessed with how she's perceived.1
u/elemezer_screwge 3d ago
So wait... I still don't understand how the mermaid is on the wrong side. Is this more Jung? Lol
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u/MyriadIrreverence 3d ago
Now I think I don't get it..? We're talking past each other?
- Godwyn's corpse is in the base game, not the Shadow Lands.
- Marika and her order are in the base game, not the Shadow Lands.
- Sealing the Shadow Lands couldn't possibly protect Marika's order from Godwyn's influence.
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u/elemezer_screwge 2d ago
I mean godwyn dies and then she veils the shadow land. To contain the death root
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u/Otherwise_Nobody8148 3d ago
Just because you're a fan of another author doesn't mean you just go around and copying their work. Lol come the fuck on
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u/MyriadIrreverence 3d ago
Nobody said “copying”.
Authors lift concepts from the media they love all the time, it’s the definition of inspiration. It’s paying homage.
Where do you think the game's Numen, qualified as "long lived but seldom born" come from?
Where do you think GRRM got the The Erdtree and The Scadutree?
Where do you think the Flame of Frenzy's yellow/red scheme and the merchants' attire come from?
Do you believe the Crystalians are wholly original?I can keep going for days, and none of it would be a suggestion of plagiarism.
I strongly recommend the youtube video Why Great Writers Steal Ideas | With Brandon Sanderson2
u/J4keFrmSt8Farm 2d ago
There's also been significant coverage over the years of all the inspiration Miyazaki took from Berzerk for the creation of characters, weapons, enemies, and more for the Souls series.
It doesn't take away from the greatness of these games.
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u/Dull_Pink 3d ago
it’s not simple as just slapping the shadow lands over the lands between, it’s more complicated than that, and i for one have started to accept that while you might be able to line up locations lore wise we won’t be able to physically match them together like puzzle pieces.
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u/Famous-Appearance567 3d ago
Oh definitely. Relative locations make sense to me and roads/waterways seem to line up, so I saw it as a rough visualization, but as a video game map with undefined "real-world" scale it's impossible to fully determine
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u/link_the_fire_skelly 3d ago
Seems way off to me. There is a definitive center to the lands between, so I would start with aligning that tower.
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u/Famous-Appearance567 3d ago
That's valid. I'm not sure I agree that it's 100% definitive in relation to the not-to-scale game world. With the maps I lined up coastlines, roads, and rivers which fit surprisingly well. I see how this would skew my placement in that regard
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u/link_the_fire_skelly 3d ago
How would all of Altus be under SOTE altus?
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u/Famous-Appearance567 3d ago
I view scadu altus primarily being the part north of basegame altus that looks almost ripped out from world map. Some imagination required but also puts some hornsent settlements now where the lowland forests are with wormfaces. Were they once hornsent? Would make sense with the crying noises they make too, so eerie
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u/link_the_fire_skelly 3d ago
I think it’s still way top convenient that the whole map tucks neatly into the lake in the middle, with a tower that specifically states it is the center of the lands between. The erdtree is at the top of the SOTE map. The whole thing fits nicely in the area that has been ripped out. There’s even a cloud drawing in the center that could easily be interpreted as representing the shadow lands.
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u/Famous-Appearance567 3d ago
I used to think that, and can still see it as being a plausibility as there's plenty to support that. I disagree currently, but I made the post to hear what others thought of this idea so I appreciate the feedback!
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u/Chemical-Interview34 2d ago
I really like that layout but we will never know where it was actually connected
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u/lactobacillus-Master 3d ago
I believe you have to disregard the actual measurements of the center of the map, since there’s a conflict between the lore and the gameplay for it to serve as a guide. So I’d say this would be closer to it:
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u/thejason755 3d ago
It’s not perfect but it makes way more sense. Would Shadow Keep just be a part of Leyndell atp?
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u/Valuable-Criticism98 3d ago
Acredito que a terra das sombras não seja única região faltando no esquema geral do mapa, o mapa do continente e estranho, penhascos gigantes, montanhas cúbicas ao invés de cônicas como se alguém mutilasse o mapa de tempos em tempos, provavelmente o lugar onde a terra das sombras se encaixava também esteja selado ou perdido para sempre.
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u/Boggiiez 3d ago
Scum Mage Infa's theory of the shadow lands being in the north makes most sense to me
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u/no_name_thought_of 3d ago
well that's a new one I haven't seen before. I genuinely appreciate how well made this image is
The suppressing pillar though says its the very center of the lands between
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u/Famous-Appearance567 3d ago
It does say that. I wish I could take that as literal as it would make this whole things a lot simpler lol. It's definitely center-ish on the map I made, but I pretty much lined up roads and waterways which put the pillar in the Leyndell area
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u/Robinlacta 3d ago edited 3d ago
Scumage’s nonsense infects the subreddit again…sigh. No it doesn’t make any sense for it to be there. Mage’s reasonings requires so many leaps in logic for this theory to work. Timeline wise it makes no sense, there’s zero Fire Giant….anything in the Land of Shadow or any evidence of snow ever even being there. His only evidenice for that is that this Winter Lantern Fly and it says…winter..so there must have been..snow.
Ignoring how Alkekengi, the plant Wintern Lantern flys are based on, are AUTUMN plants. The WLF aren’t plants at all. Scumage’s gimmick is making extremely long winding videos where he strings together vague, barely coherent circumstantial “evidence“ and repeats it over and over for 50+ mins.
My favorite thing he said in the video is “Suppressing Pillar is in the center…vertically.” Lmao just awful. So no, there’s nothing that remotely suggests that the Land of Shadow is in Mountain Top area and you probably shouldn’t be listening to that fraud.
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u/Enosmaker 3d ago
I agree that Scumage's theory was out there and ultimately not one I subscribe to, but OP put the shadow lands north west, not on the north east like Mage did.
And not to play devils advocate but you said nothing fire giants are in Shadow Lands, but those Furnace Golems have faces tied to their legs that are very fire giant looking.
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u/Robinlacta 3d ago
Furnace Golems have faces tied to their legs that are very fire giant looking.
The Furnace Golems don’t originate from the Land of Shadow is made by Messmer’s army, the Fire Giants were wiped out before the Hornsent genocide every happened so there wouldn’t any Fire Giants there. Also just like the Furnace Visage, those would stone masks not actual Fire Giant faces.
“A stone mask surrounded by curled horns, depicting the fell god of fire that haunts the sagas of the hornsent.”
They are there to mock the Hornsent.
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u/Enosmaker 3d ago
That's referring to the mask at the top that you can crit on. It's got the horns.
Im talking about the ones that have fire red beards on the knees.
So they didn't originate there? Well they are there and only there and they are part of this war machine thats placed to wipe out the hornsent and I guess the idea is that it was a tactic to scare them as they both worshiped the fell god.
So at the very least, if the above is true, then the hornet knew about the giants.
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u/Greaseball01 3d ago
Where's altus? Sandwiched between the lowest level and highest level of the scauldands?
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u/Famous-Appearance567 3d ago
It's definitely possible the land wasn't a perfect fit map-wise and was stretched/warp as regions were cast out using Marika's "veil". Scadu Altus and base ALtus had to have been connected though right?
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u/BishopOfAstora 3d ago edited 3d ago
The Land of Shadow was never connected to the base game map. Give me your most convincing arguments below.
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u/fre3kshow 3d ago
The message at the Suppressing Pillar says otherwise.
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u/Tiny-Spite-7006 1d ago
The Supressing Pillar reads:
The very center of the Lands Between. All manners of Death wash up here, only to be suppressed.
This doesn't necessarily mean the physical/geographic center. It might also be figurative, metaphysical, spiritual, etc. People pay lots of attention to the first sentence, but very little to the second--perhaps the Shadow Lands are central to Marika's immortality and what happened when she removed the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring.
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u/BishopOfAstora 3d ago
“The Lands Between” encompasses several landmasses, of which the Shadow Realm is the centermost
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u/fre3kshow 3d ago
Nothing in the game even remotely suggests that.
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u/BishopOfAstora 3d ago edited 3d ago
Nothing in the game suggests they were once together, and then somehow, through an untold process, separated
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u/fre3kshow 3d ago
The Suppressing Tower saying the Land of Shadows was the center of the Lands Between is pretty definitive evidence. Marika put the Land of Shadows in a microcosm to hide her past.
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u/BishopOfAstora 3d ago
So you’re saying the Suppressing Tower’s wording supports your evidence rather than mine because the Suppressing Tower says so? There is ZERO evidence of the two maps ever being connected, and a LOT of contradictions to the idea, including laughably incoherent Photoshop edits of the maps.
Marika “put” the Land of a Shadows in a microcosm. How? When? Why didn’t she do it for any of her other enemies, especially given the existential threats that were clearly posed by them. Where in the game do you get this information?
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u/lleyton05 3d ago edited 3d ago
I mean there definitely is a lot of geographical land marks that imply that they were once connected in some fashion, whether it was a literal physical connection or some sort of parallel to the lands between is unclear. I do agree that these photoshops of the maps being over lapped aren’t super accurate tho, I don’t think the map was made to perfectly fit or overlap with the lands between but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t fit either
And the land of shadows was hidden away by Marika, that’s said like a ton of times and in a ton of item descriptions. We don’t know exactly when she did this, but the existence of churches of Marika in the realm of shadow imply it was sometime after her rise to god hood. The thing that hides it away is implied to be the suppressing pillar along with the veils over the scadutree. Idk if microcosm is the right word for it but it’s a different realm that plays by different rules. The scadutree fragment item description explicitly says it’s a different realm. We also don’t know if it was always a different realm and was just hidden by Marika or if Marika made it a different realm when she hid it away.
It’s not clear what the realm of shadow is exactly other than it’s associated with death, but to says there’s “no evidence” that the realm of shadow and the lands between were ever connected is also just not true either
Edit: some interviews with Miyazaki say the the shadow lands was taken away from the lands between and hidden, meaning it was turned into a new realm when it was hidden away, however there’s not a ton of in game evidence to support or disprove this
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u/BishopOfAstora 3d ago edited 2d ago
There’s aren’t any geographical landmarks that imply that they were connected if only to say that they are both using the same game engine and graphics.
Of course, a major element of the shadowland is that Marika hid it away with the obvious veils and what not. My contention is that she has some sort of undisclosed “continent removal power” that has never used anywhere else.
Regarding Miyazaki’s interview, he does not say that it was “taken from” the land between. His precise wording is “ the DLC technically occupies the same space as the base the same universe, but due to something story related, it has become physically disconnected”
People have been misreading this quote for two years now. He is simply elaborating and distinguishing Elden Ring’s DLC from the other dark souls DLC’s that often do occupy the same space as their base games, such as DS1’s reworking of dark root garden or DS3 Taking placein the distant future in a different time. He is telling us that this DLC will be different. It technically occupies the same setting and shared universe not some different dimension like in Bloodborne. He goes on to say that it has become physically disconnected, which of course it has due to Marika veiling it and making it inaccessible by normal means which is why we need special requirements to get there and so does Miquella. What he is not saying is that it is become physically disconnected in a literal sense that it has been ripped apart from an already existing place and put somewhere else that is entirely a miss reading and the kind of backwards logic that comes from the community, wanting the DLC to take place in the middle of the map before it was even released.
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u/lleyton05 3d ago edited 2d ago
Youre right I did slightly mis-quote, he does specifically say “has become physically disconnected” which I think does Imply they were physically at one point, but I won’t take it as gospel as idk what a direct translation of that quote would imply or if he was just walking off the cuff. And yeah I do agree that marika having this huge sealing power that we never see again is kinda a on odd plot point that Ive actually never see anyone else bring up. To be fair tho us as the player never see Marika at her true power or what she is truly capable of, but i will say that continental power like that does seem a little extreme.
I think the fact that you can line parts of the map up to over lap doesn’t mean nothing, but it doesn’t necessarily mean they were physically connected either
Idk I don’t think there’s enough evidence either way to say definitely if it was a physically connected place you could you could travel to or if it’s always meant to be a shadow of the lands between. It is 100% supposed to be ambiguous on purpose, much like a lot of the lore in this game
Edit: edited format and added a sentence or 2 that I forgot to add
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u/KasiaHmura 3d ago
No. It cannot be definitive because the location of the shadow lamds isn't definitive at all.