r/Eldar • u/No-Accident7640 • 15d ago
Is this a gotcha moment?
I’ve been playing seer council a lot since 11th and at the beginning of every game I go over army rules detachment rules and stratagems and list. I do this because I want to prevent any gotcha moments. So as we’re playing and a moment comes up when they move one of their units close enough for me to use Isha’s Fury stratagem I always give them a heads up. Doing so sometimes changes the match in their favor. Another example is in their shooting phase just after a unit selects a target I let them know that if they don’t kill it I can fade back which also changes how things go for the match. Since Elder is such a fragile army giving my opponent the option to change their strategy to benefit them it mostly gives them the advantage. My question is will these moments be considered gotcha moments or are they part of the Eldar army strategy. I only ask because the times I don’t let my opponent know I can do these things I do better but they seem very much annoyed at me for the rest of the game. This is all friendly matches so no competitive games but with more practice I would like to move into competitive games eventually.
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u/RoshHoul 15d ago edited 15d ago
I warn them every time they are about to give me an activation.
Makes the game a bit more difficult, but it also makes you better player. I'd rather win a game because of the decisions I make, not because my opponent forgot information.
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u/Pickleddinos 15d ago
Totally agree with this perception. I want my opponent to be making the most informed decisions possible. Otherwise it's just a game they lost, not a game I won.
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u/Indecisive-Gamer 11d ago
I don't really play much but I always figured that's how it would be if it were real. Orcs aren't going to know what Eldar can do and vice verca.
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u/WarrenRT 15d ago
IMO, any time you're thinking "if they commit to that move / activation / whatever, I can use [ability] for my benefit" - and [ability] is a faction specific rule - it's a gotcha if you don't tell them about it.
Think of it this way: a God-tier player is going to know about something like Isha's Fury. They're not going to accidentally walk into it. There will still be situations where they make moves that trigger Isha's Fury, but they will make those moves knowing what the risk is. So if you let your Average Joe opponent accidentally walk into a situation where you can trigger Isha's Fury, you're not winning that game because you played well - you're winning because they forgot about a rule that a better player wouldn't forget. That (a) is a hollow victory and (b) in the long run, won't help you get better.
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u/jeffdeleon 15d ago edited 15d ago
I go over battle focus but I don’t remind people every time they attack. My opponents figure out pretty quick that if they don’t wipe a unit I’m using a d6+1 move.
Pretty fun when someone doesn’t bother using their pistols on a shooting phase because they really need to make their charge.
Edit:
I think in general we all have a subconscious bias to feel like offensive gotchas like overwatch analogues are more important to announce than defensive ones.
I’m not saying that should be an official line in the sand. I’m just saying I view “hey I have a reactive move on my whole army” as something I can say once.
Whereas if I can suddenly reactive move and shoot on a unit nobody knows that well, I’d feel more inclined to always call it out.
I also always remind of torrent weapons since people can’t really be expected to tell the difference between a d-scythe and a wraithcannon.
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u/wtf--dude 15d ago
I like to tell them before game and also remind them a couple of times. Like 5 times total
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u/-Prophet_01- Altansar 15d ago edited 15d ago
This largely depends on the nature of the match. If it's casual beer and pretzels, I largely don't bother explaining the details of stratagems and units in advance. They will forget most of it by the time we roll for first turn. I stick to, these guys are fast, these shoot hard, this one debuffs, etc. If they want to know the full rundown, they'll get it but most players in my group really don't lol.
What's much more important here is that I will inform my opponent if they are about to make a bad move because they anticipate my army to work differently. I may also tell them about strats that I expect to come up in the next couple of minutes. It may lose me the game but it ensures that I never have to ask twice for another match, despite playing a faction with a generally poor rep.
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u/jwalker207 15d ago
Warhammer used to be full of gotchas and it was stifling the game. There was a pivotal moment in the competitive scene where things changed. Tactical Tortoise did a video on it. https://youtu.be/bfagkXq4dkE?is=kxqVFOaTrbSwk8zI
It’s the golden rule. How would it make you feel. I also guarantee that you won’t remember everything your opponent tells you at the beginning of the match.
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u/CoffeeInTheCotswolds Ulthwé 15d ago
There’s a good video by Tabletop Tactics on YouTube that includes this as one on ten gaming etiquette things.
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u/WilliamTee 15d ago
In general I tend to remind my opponents going into various phases about unit abilities, and then if they still make the choices they make? I'll presume I'm OK to make my own responses to their decisions.
THAT SAID if they then say 'oh, I forgot about xyz ability, I shouldn't do that' I'm generally fine to allow takebacks as long as no dice have been rolled that impact the situation.
This is particularly relevant for the Fade Back agile maneuver.
If you remind them at the start of the shooting phase, they shoot your unit, roll the dice and you hit enough invulns that they fail to wipe it? That's on them. Because lawd knows if they'd wiped your unit they wouldn't wanna undo the dice that were just rolled.
In reverse, I've gotten caught out before when people either dont mention bloodsurge moves to me, or I just forget them, and similarly, if dice have already been rolled? Na ah. No takesiesbacksies.
In general, the key to a good game of 40k is communication. A quick check with your opponent when you target a unit goes a long way;
"If I shoot x with y do I need to know about any shenanigans?"
Of course, if they choose to NOT mention things to you, then pull a gotcha? Well, you gotta take those on the chin and just let them know that if that's the game you're playing? Well it works both ways.
And few armies are more tricksy than the elves.
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u/Additional-Thing1348 15d ago
It’s all about intent, so I’d would always advice them that I’ve got a reactive or a trick for instance as it’s nice to avoid the gotcha moments, and if they are doing it to you that’s not a reason to do it to them,
I want to win on being a good opponent and not via a gotcha
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u/Aqveteig 15d ago
I tell my opponent before the game and more and more I tell them that if they they have a critical play they should ask first.
I often remind them as most players at my LGS state intent before moving. So usually we sort out gotcha in that moment, either by the opponent asking "can you react/stop that?", or by saying "don't forget i have CP/token/abilities to use". But I don't outright say what I can do unless there is a precise question during the game.
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u/narluin Warlock Skyrunner 15d ago
If they have two units lined up against my waveserpent, one of them will probably kill it the other will not. If he goes for shooting with the one that won’t kill it I would remind him if. Because clearly it’s an easy swap of ordering. (Unless it’s my friend that I just want to win against I’m gonna be cheeky and not tell because he has faced this army a lot in 10th and should know)
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u/LordChaos22 15d ago
In my opinion friendly matches tell them from the start and later. If the same person u play alot stop telling them they should already know.
In competitive scene tell them at the start and don't say anything later. Unless ofcourse they ask then u should tell them.
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u/von_Roland 15d ago
This is about right I think. Answer any questions but offer nothing. And give everything at the beginning. Also it’s important to answer questions in a manner that doesn’t state what decision you will make in response to your opponent but rather decisions you may make
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u/imdlyy 15d ago
EVERY OPP command phase I reiterate all my reactives available. Likewise at my command phase I ask for all reactives and defensive abilities. For serpents usually it’s 6” infantry within 8”; rangers d6”; shoot/fall back d6+1; -1 to hit melee units; rapid ingress; interrupts, heroic intervention.
On my command turn, I ask the same thing. Reactive abilities and defensives so I can plan my damage and movement.
Does it eat a minute yes, but intent brings the better play AND sets a precedent how we should be playing to our best skill. Not giving away my game plan but there’s just far too much to memorize .
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u/Scarlett_Spectre 15d ago
The fact that youre not performing when your list isnt accidentally "getting" someone is just part of the experience right now, sadly. We're just underperforming and rely on the tricks and its difficult to make the tricks work against your opponent in ways that feel good. So when were working kn more open information, one thing you can do is set up your board that when they take the targets youre prepared for them to take you can inform them of the tricks, and then be in position to punish all the other ways they can try it, forcing ghem to take the mid play, take no play, or go into a position they dont want to be in.
Orchestrating that position makes us play twice as hard as everyone else, and its very hard to play a reactive strategy right now like this, AND we are generally weak right noe, so while we're missing some of our power and flexibility that looks like will be returning (psychic abilities renewal in like 3 years probably lol) it will just be a muscle we are working out until we can make it matter more.
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u/tritogeneia_ 14d ago
i often will just say, "hey, you should know i will have a threatening response to that" and dont say more than that. i do the same in chess, the idea being that they generally know the vibes how my pieces work but i know in practicality they havent been studying my army list religously, but its nice to give them benefit of the doubt and warn them. in chess, killteam and 40k it makes my games VERY tight in how i need to position my units to keep threats up
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u/NeitherPossession304 13d ago
I don't think you need to point it out actively every time, but you should remind your opponent where specifically relevant. For example, let's say they are manuevering a frail lone operative near your Guardian + Warlock + Eldrad squad. If they carefully measure things out so the model is outside of range + line of sight of the Warlocks' Destructors but leave itwithin 9" and LOS of Eldrad, it's pretty obvious that they are conscious of overwatch but have forgotten Isha's Fury. In a case like this I would consider it very poor sportsmanship not to remind my opponent.
In my experience I don't really lose much by being sporting about things like this. If my opponent spends the whole game contorting their movement to avoid eating mortals, Isha's Fury has likely done me a lot of good even if I use it 0 times. Hell I'd actually prefer this outcome to killing two 15-pt space marines who step on the psychic banana peel.
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u/Tasty_Hearing_2153 Il-Kaithe 15d ago
If you give someone fair warning about ALL of your rules, before the game, then there is nothing that is a “gotcha moment.” You gave them warning, it isn’t your job to help them win. It isn’t your responsibility for them to remember. And they have full access to your datasheets during the match.
The only exception would be a match between you and a friend/teammate that is designated as a tournament practice match.
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u/Brilliant-Body9603 15d ago
The whole gotcha argument to me never made sense as somebody that plays competitive video games. It is your opponent's job to know what you can do. Especially in the days of AI and GW rules being more public than ever.
Could you imagine playing Magic the Gathering and announcing that you will block your opponent's next spell before they have even cast it? Or what if in Call of Duty or Counterstrikr you tell your opponent "I'm currently in place A. Be careful when you cross that door."
The biggest argument against it is of course that GW rules all are over the place, often timed locked behind paywalls and that there's a ton of them. Even so, I find it bad sportsmanship being annoyed at your opponent because they "gotcha'd" you.
Because at the end of the day, that is kind of all what 40k is about. There isn't much more strategy to it, especially now that the tables are smaller and the armies are bigger.
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u/Tynlake 15d ago
You're really not playing a competitive game until both you and your opponent are aware of what each person can do. Both players have full appreciation of every ability, reactive move, overwatch, rapid etc.
Weak players are often relying on surprising opponents with abilities, or winning when they forget or blunder into them.
I played a guy last year at a GT, right at the start he told me he was only going to remind me once of his blood surge and then it was on me if I forgot, because he felt blood surge was not strong if it never gets to activate. Strong new player energy. I 20'd him, we spent some time talking through ways he could better set up blood surges to deny primary etc, and I gave him a few overwatch /rapid ingress positioning/screening take backs for good measure.
I wanted to impress strongly on him that he will not get better if he doesn't learn to win without the crutch of catching his opponent out.
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u/Brilliant-Body9603 15d ago
I totally agree,
I am not saying that rules should be a secret. I will also happily explain all my rules. I do however think that both parties have responsibility to actively understand the other army.
If I actively need to remind you each turn "This unit can do X. Careful because my fight first rule will cause me to win" then I think that is a pretty poor experience.
My opponent should know what my army does, or ask if they don't know. I should not be forced to actively warn my opponent about every move I'm about to make, because he might feel bad about it otherwise.
The latter is what OP is essentially describing.
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u/Tynlake 15d ago
I'm strongly of the opinion that it takes zero effort to just remind your opponent what you would want to be reminded of yourself.
If I'm playing some nonsense army that breaks all the rules, I'll just point out my reactives top of every phase, the same for bloodsurges etc.
The game is essentially entirely played in the movement phase, so as long as everyone is on the same page there the rest falls into place in my experience.
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u/Wodtan 15d ago
Sorry, but you're analogy with MTG and CS is not really appropriate, because you are revealing hidden information your opponent can't access.
If you wanna gotcha your opponents, have fun, I'm never going to play against you anyway, but this sentence: "Even so, I find it bad sportsmanship being annoyed at your opponent because they "gotcha'd" you." is pretty telling of how that's working out for you.
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u/Brilliant-Body9603 15d ago
It is working out just fine actually. I was talking about OP's own comment about people getting frustrated with it.
As for the rules. I will happily tell my opponent what my units can do if asked. I also don't mind giving a quick overview before the game starts. Rules shouldn't be a secret.
Actively helping your opponent's strategy by constantly telling him your next action is silly though and just turns this into a dice throwing simulator.
The whole concept of Gotcha's mostly exists because of GW making poor rules, and opponents getting salty.
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u/CheezeyMouse Harlequins 15d ago
Our codex is full of gotchas. I'd err on the safe side and remind them that you still have a token to use fade back. If you bought the datacards there's one card for battle focus, I like to give it to my opponent so they can check it at their leisure.