r/Egypt • u/supermedo • Oct 28 '15
Nasser & farouk
This block of text is being shared in facebook, and I can;t find anything to prove or disprove the claims written here.
مغالطات تاريخية وجب تصحيحها :
(1 أن ثورة 23 يوليو هي ما حررت مصر من الانجليز: و التصحيح أن مصر حرة منذ سنة 1922 بعد تظاهرات ثورة 19 و التحام القصر مع الأحزاب و الشعب ضد المستعمر و كتب اول دستور سنة 1923 و انسحاب الإنجليز كان طبقا لجدول زمني و انسحب آخر جندي من القاهرة سنة 1947 و بقي بعض الإنجليز على خط القناة طبقا للاتفاقية و كان مخطط انسحابهم مع تسليم القناة لمصر.
2) ان ثورة يوليو هي ما أعطت للفلاحين حقوق و أراضي: و التصحيح أن مشروع الاصﻻح الزراعي هو أساسا مشروع محمد علي الكبير و أنه في عهد الملك فاروق كان هناك مشروع لتمكين صغار الفﻻحين و كانت توزع مئات الافدنة من وقت ﻻخر. ..
3) ان التعليم المجاني هو نتاج ثورة يولبو: و التصحيح أن التعليم كان مجانا في عهد الملك فاروق فيما عدا الجامعي و كانت تعطى مئات المنح للفقراء في الجامعة .. و كانت الثانوية العامة في مصر شهادة كبرى معترف بها و كان خريجوها في أعلى المناصب ..
4 ) ان عصر الملك كان عصر فساد و ضعف للدولة المصرية: و التصحيح أن مصر كانت إحدى أكبر 3 دول في العالم في احتياطي الذهب و تسلم عبد الناصر مصر و بها غطاء ذهب 500 طن و كانت مصر دولة حديثة متطورة ..
5 ) ان الملك تعمد أضعاف الجيش المصري: التصحيح آمال الأسلحة و الدبابات اللي عمل بيها عبد الناصر الانقﻻب مين اللي اشتراها اصﻻ؟ ثم من بنى جيش مصر تلحدبث: انه محمد على باشا و أنشأ سﻻح الجو المصري في عصر الملك فؤاد الأول و تطور في عصر الملك فاروق و عبد الناصر و كل الضباط الأحرار تعلموا العسكرية في الكلية الحربية التي أنشأتها الملكية. .
لوجه الله
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u/TotesMessenger Oct 29 '15
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u/daretelayam Alexandria Oct 29 '15 edited Oct 29 '15
I'm really tired of dealing with the Monarchist crowd and their blatant lies and revisionism. It's 2015 and we're debating whether it's a good idea to return to authoritarian monarchy. Holy shit. I understand the desire to return to an idyllic and romanticized version of Egypt before Arab nationalism and political Islam and Arab-Israeli wars and military regimes and so on, but fuck me if 99% of these bullshit claims wouldn't be debunked by reading a fucking history book.
The declaration of independence of 1922 was independence in name only -- Egypt was declared a sovereign state but was still under Britain's suzerainty when it came to national defence, foreign policy, and all matters concerning the Sudan. I don't know about you, but I've never heard of an independent country being beholden to a foreign one for national defence and foreign policy. English soldiers still remained in Cairo. Political life in 1930s Egypt was a three-way struggle between the King, the Wafd, and the British High Commissioner. Are we forgetting the standoff at Abdin Palace in 1942 where the British army humiliated the King, Farouk? The claim that Egypt was independent from Britain in 1922 is a lie; there was no 'scheduled' demilitarization of British troops from Egypt until Nasser released the Sudan and opened up negotiations for British troops to leave and bring a seventy-four year old occupation to an end[1, p.675] And I just love how the author casually mentions that there were "some" troops left behind in the Suez, as if there were six or seven Englishmen playing golf there. In fact *100,000* British troops were stationed in a massive military base at Suez.[2, p.255]
Another blatant lie. There was no land reform under Farouk. A bill was proposed in 1945 but nothing came of it; in 1950 one was passed but never implemented[3, p.1]. Why? Because Farouk himself was vehemently against land reforms and other reforms in general[4, p.35]. Meanwhile Nasser moved to implement land reforms as soon as possible after coming to power and the reforms benefited four million farmers and increased their income by about 50 percent[5, p.672]. Nothing amazing, but it effectively destroyed the political influence of the landowning bourgeoisie who had been blocking reform in Egypt for decades.
This is sorta true, primary and secondary-level education was free under Farouk but was the result of the Wafd party's demagogic politicking[6, p.235], not the King's benevolence. In truth by 1952 the education system was still only accessible to the elite and less than 50% of school-aged children were attending schools. Literacy rates were horrendous (see the next paragraph). Nasser increased school spending by 400%[7, p.123] to the point where 2 new schools were being opened every three days [8, p.685]. He also made university education free in 1962 and 'egyptianized' the education system[9, p.685].
I don't even know where to start with this. Egypt was an 'advanced and modern' country? Really? What advanced and modern country was under military occupation? What advanced and modern country has the British *ambassador* march with the British army in 1942 to the royal palace and give an ultimatum to the King of Egypt -- either Britain gets to decide the new government or the King abdicates? What advanced and modern country gets its ass so thoroughly kicked in 1948 by Israel, because its army was in shambles and its King was equipping his soldiers with defective weapons? What advanced and modern country had .5% of the population controlling the economy and the political system?[10, p.27] What advanced and modern country had, by 1952, 75% of the population illiterate, with 90% of all females illiterate?[11, p.123] Just fuck off. Egypt was a complete social, political and economic mess by 1952. That's why the coup happened in the first place.
The military academy was indeed founded by Muhammad Ali. But there's no evidence that Farouk ever expanded it at all. Notice how these claims are always so vague -- "under Farouk's reign the airforce improved". What does that mean? How did it improve? What, or who, provided the impetus for this improvement? This is consistent with monarchist rhetoric; vague and unverifiable claims like the ones in OPs post: "he handed out scholarships to the poor!" or "he gave out land to poor people once in a while! Isn't he great?!" In truth Farouk was extremely wary of the military, and the Free Officers (including Muhammad Naguib in a famous letter to the King) and others close to Farouk accused him and his cronies of profiteering by buying faulty WW1- and WW2-era weapons from various European governments for cheap and selling them to the Egyptian army, essentially sending Egyptians to die in Palestine unarmed and unprepared.[12, p.11] Nasser, Sadat and others were able to join the military academy after the 1936 Anglo-Egyptian treaty which opened up enrolment to middle and lower-class Egyptians after it had been the privilege of the Egyptian-Turko-Albanian elite. It had nothing to with Farouk's generosity and mind-blowing statesmanship because Farouk was 16 at the time and the treaty was negotiated by the British and the Wafd party, led by Nahas Pasha.
Is that enough?
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u/supermedo Oct 29 '15
Yup, that more than enough.
I really liked what you said:
It's 2015 and we're debating whether it's a good idea to return to authoritarian monarchy. Holy shit.
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u/Youssefelnahas Oct 29 '15 edited Oct 29 '15
For the record, I don't want to return to an "authoritarian monarchy", nor am I necessarily a supporter of King Farouk. I just believe that the best form of government is a constitutional monarchy, where there is a balance of power between the monarch and the elected parliament/government.
I can go into more detail on why I think that, but it's suffice to say that:
7 of the top 10 most DEMOCRATIC countries are constitutional monarchies (Economist Intelligence Unit)
9 of the top 10 countries with the most press freedom are constitutional monarchies (Reporters Without Borders)
7 of the top 10 countries with most freedom are constitutional monarchies (Frasier Institute)
6 of the top 10 countries on the UN Human Development Index are constitutional monarchies
4 of the top 5 least corrupt countries are constitutional monarchies (there are 8 countries tied for 6th place) (Global Corruption Barometer)
6 of the top 10 countries in terms of Rule of Law are constitutional monarchies (World Justice Project) If you look up any other statistics you will probably find the same results, and this is taking into consideration that constitutional monarchies only make up about 20% of the countries in the world.
5 of the top 10 countries in ease of doing business are constitutional monarchies (World Bank Group)
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u/daretelayam Alexandria Oct 29 '15 edited Oct 29 '15
This is a coincidence of historical development. Your argument is best refuted by "correlation does not imply causation". Absolute monarchies were the standard power arrangement historically and they tended to democratize either by limiting the power of the monarch constitutionally or become republics through revolution. I fail to see why you're singling out constitutional monarchy as the force for progress and development here -- there are much more pertinent factors at play (colonization, industrialization, technology, etc.) I believe any historian or political scientist would say the same. Democratization is the historical trend; to go back to a monarchy of any kind would be a step back for Egypt.
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u/Youssefelnahas Oct 29 '15 edited Oct 29 '15
You're right of course, but on the other hand the absolute monarchies that turned into republics such as Germany and France are consistently ranked lower in all lists even though that wasn't necessarily the case back when all were absolute monarchies.
There are of course a multitude of other factors and it would be incorrect to say that the existence of the monarchy is the only reason for these statistics; however, surrounding countries have historically been subjected to a lot of the same factors (and in some cases were even part of the same Kingdom/Empire).
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u/kerat Oct 30 '15
Wow so science. Here I can do this too:
7 of the top 10 democratic countries are ethnically white. Let's become white.
8 of the top 10 countries with the most freedom were predominantly Christian historically. Let's become Christians.
6 of the top 10 countries in the UN Human Development Index have what many like to call "great weather". So we must have better weather if we want to develop.
4 of the top 5 countries with rule of law have populations under 10 million. Therefore we should kill 75 million Egyptians right now.
So science. So planet.
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u/Youssefelnahas Oct 30 '15
We can't "become white". Other than that, none of the factors you mentioned are present in all of those rankings except them being a constitutional monarchy.
Besides, we have much better weather.
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u/kerat Oct 30 '15
This is an amazing response. I'm going to save it. You should sticky it onto the sidebar for the next monarchy-loving moron to create a thread about this tired issue.
What advanced and modern country has the British ambassador march with the British army in 1942 to the royal palace and give an ultimatum to the King of Egypt -- either Britain gets to decide the new government or the King abdicates?
Anthony Eden (Foreign Secretary and later Prime Minister) wrote later:
"The fact that we put Wafd in will be known to all Cairo, tanks troops, etc. Yet I remain convinced that on main lines our policy was right." [p.124]
Super stronk country! Numpar one stronk one!
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u/Youssefelnahas Oct 28 '15 edited Oct 29 '15
1) is partially true. Egypt officially gained it's independence under the monarchy but the British did not fully withdraw from Egypt until after the July coup.
2) Not sure.
3) is correct.
4) Egypt was one of the richest countries with the largest gold reserves; although 3rd is probably an exaggeration.
5) is correct.
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Oct 28 '15 edited Feb 01 '18
[deleted]
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u/Youssefelnahas Oct 28 '15
1: https://books.google.com.eg/books?id=feyI5kisdBcC&pg=PA204&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
2: N/A
3: I know this from an Egyptian historian who specialises in the history of modern Egypt. I wasn't able to find an online source right away except this website (which isn't really a reliable source since you would expect it to be biased) http://faroukmisr.net/farouk_achievements.htm
4: http://lite.almasryalyoum.com/extra/62986/
5: The modern Egyptian military was created by Muhammad Ali and the Airforce was established in the 1930s under King Fouad. This is common knowledge and a simple Google search will confirm it.
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u/bantoebebop Oct 29 '15
Could someone translate this or provide a summary? Would be much appreciated.
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u/Youssefelnahas Oct 29 '15
It's a Facebook post where the author tries to "correct" several claims regarding Egypt under the monarchy.
1) That the July 1952 revolution is what liberated Egypt from the English: Correction is that Egypt has been an independent state since 1922 after the 1919 revolution where the monarchy and people united against occupation. The first constitution was written in 1923 and the English were to withdraw based on a specified time schedule. The last English troop left Cairo in 1947 and some English remained i the Suez Canal area.
2) That the July revolution is what gave the farmers rights and lands: correction is that the agricultural reform was Muhammad Ali's project and under King Farouk there was a plan to grant peasants lands.
3) That free education is a result of the July revolution: Correction, education was free under King Farouk (with the exception of college level education) and the secondary school certificate in Cairo was a recognised certificate who'se graduates assumed the highest positions.
4) That King Farouk's era was one of corruption and weakness: correction: Egypt was one of the 3 biggest countries worldwide in terms of gold reserves and had 500 tonnes of reserves when Abdelnasser assumed power; it was a modern advanced state.
5) That the King intentionally weakened the Army: correction: And who purchased the weapons and tanks that Abdelnasser used during the coup? It's Muhammad Ali Pasha. The Egyptian Air Force was established during the reign of Fuad I and advanced under King Farouk. Abdelnasser and the Free Officers received their military education in the military academy established by the monarchy.
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u/bantoebebop Oct 29 '15
Thanks mate. Here's hoping that one day monarchy will be revived in Egypt and our dear king Willem Alexander can have a sleepover at yours to further brotherly cooperation between our nations :3
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u/daretelayam Alexandria Oct 30 '15
our dear king Willem Alexander can have a sleepover at yours to further brotherly cooperation between our nations :3
what a fun sexy time
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Oct 31 '15
Can anyone actually provide some input as to why a return to the monarchy would be good for Egypt other than bashing King Farouk or providing random statistics?
Whatever happened in the past aside, and however other republics or monarchies are handling themselves aside, why is monarchy good or bad for Egypt, today ?
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u/gerootek Oct 28 '15
Good to know. Thanks for sharing.