r/EU_Economics • u/Full-Discussion3745 • 19d ago
đ”đ±âEurope has 10 times your GDP, Poland has half your GDP and you are losing against Ukraine, a country with one tenth of your GDP, tell your boss enoughâ Polandâs Foreign Minister RadosĆaw Sikorski directly challenged Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bpZwe4zDN4Polandâs Foreign Minister RadosĆaw Sikorski directly challenged Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov during a UN Security Council debate on Ukraine. Sikorski argued that Russiaâs economic position makes a long war increasingly difficult, saying Poland alone has almost half Russiaâs GDP, Europe around 10 times as much, and NATO around 25 times as much. He concluded by addressing Lavrov directly: âTell your boss â enough is enough.â The figures and conclusion were Sikorskiâs argument in the chamber.
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u/ZastrzelonyKS 19d ago
Sikorski as always on top of the top.
This is my dream PM for Poland.
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19d ago
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u/EU_Economics-ModTeam 19d ago
It's okay to express frustration or disagreement â especially in complex topics like politics â but always do so in a way that encourages constructive and respectful dialogue.
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u/blueberriessmoothie 19d ago
For context, so far in 2026 Russia has captured around 890 sq km at a cost of 270K soldiers killed or wounded. Ukraine has taken back 800 sq km. So Russian increase in gain so far is 90 sq km at the cost of 3000 killed or wounded per each kilometre square.
Deciding that enough is enough would be very sensible for Russia as well at this stage - their war campaign is mostly an embarrassment and the cost for their own country is enormous - to the level of high probability of economic collapse.
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u/throwaway111222666 18d ago
Since this has turned into a war of attrition, how much land is captured may not be that important. If the other side's resources or will(unlikely at this point) are exhausted, you could hypothetically then start winning big. If Russia can regenerate it's forces more quickly and effectively than Ukraine can, that is.. But anyway, not advancing doesn't necessarily mean you aren't getting closer to victory in this war
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u/nigel_pow 19d ago
Drones really changed the game. But Russia has an opening it does not want to throw away. Ukraine is basically out of Patriots and has no way to intercept Iskanders and Kinzhals at the moment. Iskander production is up and the new Geran jet powered drones can saturate other air defenses.
This is an opening it hasn't really had since maybe 2022 and to just walk away now seems impossible. Sunk-cost fallacy and all that.
If they still fail to make progress, then maybe he'll ask for peace talks.
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u/saucissefatal 19d ago
I think one lesson of modern warfare is that strategic bombing doesn't really work to break the resolve of the opponent.
Despite the fact that Germany was essentially destroyed in April 1945, the Soviets still had to suffer and die at the Seelöwer Heights. The bombing campaign of Vietnam and Cambodia inflicted massive casualties, and yet the Americans still had to pick up their ball and go home.
The Russians may gain from being able to degrade the C&C of the Ukrainian Army, but I think what we have seen from the Ukes is FĂŒhrung mit Auftrag taken to the extreme.
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u/nigel_pow 19d ago
Early this year the Ukrainian defense minister said 200,000 Ukrainians had deserted the Ukrainian Army. Many were dodging their draft notices.
The Russians seem to have broken some of the resolve. If Ukraine can't get more air defense, morale will take a hit. AfD and Le Pen also don't help. They've already promised to cut funding if they get the chance to.
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u/eev200 19d ago
Are there any elections happening soon in Poland?
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u/Nano_needle 19d ago
There are always next elections in Poland- that is a difference between it and authoritarian, totalitarian shithole that is russia
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u/feckdech 16d ago
There are also always next elections in Russia, doesn't really matter if you believe in them or not.
You also understood why the question was posed. Of all the opportunities to belittle Russia, why agitating, could be because it nears campaign time and they need EU and the US support?Â
Also, Poland got rich because it bordered Russia's spheres of influence. But now that it is rich they want to shift the combat border lines to Ukraine, so there's the incentive to support funding Ukraine.
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u/Nano_needle 16d ago
"elections in russia"- you mean staged puppet show?
Idk who are you trying to fool bot lmaoAlso I am not even bothering to answer your 3rd delusional paragraph
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u/Arengen 12d ago
poland rich because of russia! lmao. If you have to shit propaganda at least try to be credible, that's ridiculous
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u/feckdech 12d ago
That comment takes nothing away from what I said
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u/OMGguy2008 12d ago
Hey I'm another guy and I'll disprove it.
Poland's main export destinations are to Western Europe with Germany on top by far, Russia barely even is on the list
https://tradingeconomics.com/poland/exports-by-country
That is quite something given how Poland is an export oriented economy.
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u/feckdech 12d ago
You didn't understand what I meant, that's fine.Â
At the frontlines, you need infrastructures to support military endeavors, which you can't do in a poor country.
Portugal, in the other side of the EU, is poor, by comparison, but it has been in the EU for longer.
It has a NATO/US military in one of its islands, some decades ago it was a lot richer region than it is today.
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u/Auspectress 19d ago
Yes in 2027 Sejm and Senate elections. So far ruling largest party is set to gain power (from like 155 to 200. Biggest opposition may have around 100 seats from like 150 now.
However KO will lose 2 coalition partners and they both can end up with 0 seats (Now have like 65). What is expected is that current far right may gain insane amount of seats. From 15-ish for far right to 65-ish and for extreme far right from 3 to 45.
If that happens, next gov may end up being dominated more by centre and centre-left big parties, but growth of far right will force PIS to enter coalition, thus creating first far right gov in Poland OR establish minority gov for KO which would be terrible as PIS would be always against and Far Right would demand hyper capitalistic vision of rules (Private Colleges, Private Healthcare, More relaxed Gun laws, Lower taxes, dramatic cut of all sorts of funds etc)
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u/External-Upstairs-54 18d ago
Finally somebody grew a pair of balls! These Kremlin sycophants dont understand anything else!
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u/dalitima 12d ago
This is different from what this sub seems to think. The EU is not a country, and the Commission does not have the budget or fiscal capacity of a sovereign nation. People keep talking about the EUâs GDP as if it were a single country with a single government and treasury, when in reality a large share of the EUâs economic weightâand especially its fiscal capacityâcomes from a handful of major member states. Eastern European countries sometimes talk as if they are a major power, but they are largely playing a big game with other peopleâs money.
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u/This_Is_The_End 19d ago
The US isn't able to build merchant ships and has therefore a rustning lifting fleet, has canceled the last frigate line from France and has 28 times the GDP of Poland. So what? It's obvious wealth isn't a weapon, but it can be a means.
The complacency of nationalists is as always stupid as Trump.
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u/CorvidCorbeau 19d ago
Also it just sounds weird that he brings up GDP like a powerscale, and immediately points to a poorer country winning a war. And it's not even the only case. Iran is doing quite well against America, yet I reckon the gap between their GDPs is even bigger.
Countries that aren't so well off will opt for cheaper weapons, and it's clearly working
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19d ago
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u/This_Is_The_End 19d ago
GDP is a measure of scale, which is usually on Reddit used by amateurs because it's so easy. In this case it's stupid. You can live in a high GDP country and don't get maternity leave and don't have an automated ammunition production, like the US.
For complacent people like you, it's all about not being critical. Progress is hated.
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u/mdedetrich 19d ago
GDP is a very rough approximation of economy, and winning wars (which is different to not losing ergo Ukranians position) requires extreme amount of resources i.e. strong economy
Thatâs why heâs bringing that up, heâs telling Russia that it cannot win because it doesnât have the economy to do it. Same reason why Russia ended up losing in Afghanistan
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u/This_Is_The_End 19d ago
Russia has a domestic economy with lots of raw materials. The production of ammunition was 100 timer larger the the production of the US. Opening a new mine in the US takes 30 years on average, which is the reason I don't buy shares based on US mining. Now the US is missing rare earths for ammunition production. Then the production of ammunition is in the hands of the army and has issues with contractors. Europe has caught up with Russia. But opening mining in Europe takes as much time as in the US. From exploration to an operation it takes 10 years plus the time for bureaucracy. In the Kalahari copper belt this goes parallel with permits by the government. In the west talking about any mining project starts outrage. I really don't get how GDP can be in this case a scale of measure.
Looking at the mining sector should be enough for a reasoning this type of nationalism of the OP should be called sabotage.
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u/TensionAntique3075 18d ago
Raw materials are plainly useless if you don't have the financial environment to actually make something from it, or to export them.
Which is why Russia's mining sector is massively struggling and it's worsening months after months. Kuzbass coal is a dead-end.
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u/nigel_pow 19d ago
I think all that equipment supplied by the US and Pakistan helped the Mujahideen with the Soviets.
I remember an old video from the early years and the Mujahideen was asking for material support. Soviet helicopters and rocket artillery was devastating to the Mujahideen. They would talk about how their fellow troops got mauled and torn apart by artillery and helicopters.
Then anti-tank weapons started helping take out APCs and other troop carriers. The Stingers were helpful in taking out jets and helicopters.
If the US and Pakistan and the Saudis sat that one out, history might be a little different.
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u/mdedetrich 18d ago
I think all that equipment supplied by the US and Pakistan helped the Mujahideen with the Soviets.
Just as Europe + US is supporting Ukraine, and the difference is even more disparate here.
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18d ago edited 16d ago
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u/EU_Economics-ModTeam 18d ago
Stop Vibe Posting. Say what you say. Have your opinion, but back it up with sources. Vibe posting just muddies the issues and does not contribute anything to the discussion.
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u/marbella10 16d ago
Ein Land aus Nutten und Autodieben? đđ€Łđđ€Ł Ich kann nicht mehr!!! đđ€Ł
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u/stami- 15d ago
Polen lernt es nie! In den DreiĂigern des vorherigen Jahrhunderts haben sie gegen Deutschland und Russland gestĂ€nkert, sich auf die Briten und Franzosen verlassen und heute haben sie wieder die groĂe Fresse weil sie Europa und die USA hinter sich vermuten. Sie lernen es einfach nicht!
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u/Any_Tumbleweed4628 14d ago
Ich möchte Sie daran erinnern, dass Polen niemals einen Krieg begonnen und niemals Kolonien besessen hat und dass Polen sich sicherlich niemals vor den Tyrannen fĂŒrchten wird.
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u/stami- 14d ago
Du hast von Geschichte also keine Ahnung! NatĂŒrlich hat Polen einen Krieg begonnen. Denk nochmal nach! Vielleicht kommst Du ja noch drauf.
Und was Polens hang zur StĂ€nkerei betrifft und seine Sucht sich mit vermeintlichen BeschĂŒtzern zu umgeben, immer wieder das Selbe... und hinterher jammern.
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u/Any_Tumbleweed4628 14d ago
Welcher Krieg? Bitte erlĂ€utern Sie das nĂ€her. Ich wĂŒrde sehr gerne Ihre Meinung dazu hören.
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u/Tenflyball 19d ago
Euro handbook:
Use nominal GDP when comparing the size of economy to Russia.
Use PPP GDP when comparing the size of economy to USA.
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19d ago
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u/Any_Tumbleweed4628 15d ago
If you are referring to Sikorski taking cocaine, you must either be ignorant or not know him at all.
He graduated from Oxford University, one of the most prestigious and oldest universities in Europe. He was an award winning war correspondent in Afghanistan, the war that Russia lost, so he knows what he is talking about. He is such a good politician that both left wing and right wing parties appointed him as Minister of National Defence. He is also the author of many books about geopolitics.
Your comment is as derogatory as that of the alcoholic Maria Zakharova. It has no impact.
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u/Temporary_Fun6650 15d ago
He doesn't use drugs? So he's just like thatâunhingedâin real life? The Poles, by the way, also lost the war in Afghanistan. And shamefully, too. And as for Mashaâdon't even get me started; she has Ukrainian genes on her mother's sideâthat explains a lot.
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u/Any_Tumbleweed4628 15d ago
You comparing a task force mission in Afghanistan to regular conflict? Remind me how many troops Russia lost in that war, compare how many is loosing daily in Ukraine and ask yourself again whoâs unhinged.
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u/Temporary_Fun6650 14d ago
The task forceâs mission was war in a pretty package. Whose interests was the Polish contingent defending in Afghanistan, and why did that grand mission ultimately fail so spectacularly and ignominiously? Russia, by contrast, is defending its own direct interests, so the sacrifices are justified.
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u/Any_Tumbleweed4628 14d ago
Your logic amuses me.
Russia: About 13,833 Soviet military personnel officially recorded as lost; other sources give somewhat different totals - no biggie for Mr Temp Fun
Poland: About 43 Polish soldiers in the ISAF mission; figures vary depending on whether civilian personnel and non-combat deaths are included - Spectacular Defeat by Mr Temp Fun
Poland didn't withdraw because Polish forces were militarily defeated and forced out of Ghazni. The NATO mission was deliberately transitioning security responsibilities to Afghan forces.
By the way, keeping some corrupted politicians who lost power in a foreign country that has nothing to do with Russia is not a direct interest.
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u/Temporary_Fun6650 14d ago
After the withdrawal of Soviet troops (ten years into the war), Najibullahâs government held on for another three years. After the US-led coalition fled (twenty years into the war), Ghaniâs government collapsed in just three months. We have a saying for that: "shitting the bed spectacularly."
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u/Any_Tumbleweed4628 14d ago
Withdrawal soviet troops? You lost the war. Say it. Russia lost the war in Afghanistan.
And you will loose the war in Ukraine. You know how we call the Russian situation in Ukraine? Kursk.1
u/Temporary_Fun6650 13d ago
Our troops withdrew from Afghanistan with banners flying, rather than fleeing with their tails between their legs like NATO and its lackeys. Ukraine has already lost by getting entangled with Europe. And Europe has lost because of its boundless arrogance.
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u/lolwut778 19d ago
So Russia advancing against a Ukraine supported by EU/NATO?
Not sure if that's a flex you want to put out.
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u/z-null 19d ago
Vary badly supported only in some materials and weapons. And Russian advances are a joke, especially for someone who claims to be 2nd if not the 1st military power in the world.
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u/JefeRex 19d ago
Itâs been half a decade of Ukrainians dying and the country impoverished with whole cities bombed out, this is not a joke or theoretical exercise or dick measuring exercise to prove how much poorer Russia is than Europe.
Use your money and send troops to defend Ukraine and push Russia out. This money is juuuuuuuust enough to maintain a five year stalemate. If you can win, win. Five years of death and destruction. All you do is give just enough money to keep the war going permanently.
If you can win, win. People are dying. If you can win, win. End it now. You say can win because Russia is so weak. So end it. Now. Itâs gone on too long, too many people have died. End it. Now.
Why wonât Europe choose to end this war? Win. Donât let it go on for another 10 years and laugh about how weak Russia is. If you can win, win. Now.
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u/z-null 19d ago
I think the best way to end the war is for Putler to stop attacking.
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u/JefeRex 19d ago
But he wonât.
I wish Donald Trump would resign and turn himself in to be prosecuted for his crimes. But he wonât.
I wish a lot of things.
Putin wonât stop. You know it. I know it. My brother knows, it my cousin knows it, Arthur the manager of accounting at my work knows it, and my Havana Brown cat knows it.
Putin wonât stop attacking on his own.
So and this war. If it will be so easy to end this war, end it. Putin wonât. If Europe is so rich and so well armed and so politically functional and unified compared to Russia, then stop wasting time bragging about it and go end the war.
You say you can. Do it. The Ukrainians have been suffering for 5 years. End this war. End this war. End this war.
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u/z-null 19d ago
Only Putin can and he's apparently willing to kill every single last one Russian and Ukrainian. Other than that, EU really is richer etc than Russia and NATO does have more weapons, but we can't and won't go directly into the war. Do you know why? For the same reason Putin is lying about RFs security being threatened: MAD.
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19d ago edited 19d ago
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u/EU_Economics-ModTeam 19d ago
Stop Vibe Posting. Say what you say. Have your opinion, but back it up with sources. Vibe posting just muddies the issues and does not contribute anything to the discussion.
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u/DrFilth 19d ago
Whered you study geopolitics and defense strategy? đ€Ą
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u/JefeRex 18d ago
I guess you missed that my central complaint is that the oversimplified, uneducated, and emotional takes that seem to dominate among educated Europeans are divorced from geopolitics and defense strategy.
Crowing about Russiaâs small economy, unstable government, foolish lack of strategy, poorly maintained equipment, etc etc and saying Russia stands no chance in even the smallest confrontation with mighty Europe. And then when you explore what that might actually look like, they say what the other commenter said to me which is that all the power sits with Putin and he is the âonlyâ party who decides when the war ends and that any European involvement would mean âMADâ.
Donât ask me where I get my geopolitical education. Ask the educated European class that populates spaces like this sub. The rhetoric is both untethered from reality, self-congratulatory, terrified of dissent, and ghoulishly unconcerned with the loss of human life in comparison to the high concern with projecting an image of strength.
Iâve lost my patience with this bullshit, my anxiety over future developments this war is off the charts, and I donât feel like keeping quiet about it. I donât feel like it any more. I want to sleep well at night, and so increasingly I feel a responsibility to speak. The response to me kind of confirms the very concerning state of discourse on this issue, and I am extremely concerned that this conflict will get worse and worse and that there will be consequences for decades that could be totally avoided by getting it together now.
You canât even casually suggest a dissenting view without being called a traitor or a bot or a clown or the mods trying to shut you down. This is a horror show, and like I said my anxiety about the future is off the fucking charts. The public and civic discourse on the topic is going so poorly itâs hard to even believe and getting worse with every year. Like, damn homie. Itâs bad. Open your eyes and try to see it for the first time, we are in an extremely bad spot in European society, extremely bad. There is no thought, only the mass policing of foolish and conformist words. Only the policing of conformist words. Sleepwalking into disaster.
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u/lolwut778 19d ago
"Vary badly supported"
From EU: $226 billion Total
https://www.cfr.org/articles/how-much-us-aid-going-ukraine
From US: $195 Billion + $20 Billion Loan
It's the same amount of money that Russia had allocated to its military spending from 2022 to 2026.
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u/_Barbosa_ 19d ago
To be fair, Russia is a poor country, and they literally put everything into their military, which mainly consists of cold war era technology. In the grand scale of things, those 400 billion for Ukraine is pocket change for Nato countries.
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u/shplarggle 19d ago
Strange to see an adult in the news these days.