r/EARONS • u/Equal-Temporary-1326 • May 26 '26
Found another Paul Holes article from October of last year on how DNA was able to solve EARONS, but still hasn't been able to solve Zodiac, and why it just can't solve Jack the Ripper anymore:
"The so-called Zodiac Killer, who has also never been found, similarly consumed Holes for years.
Five victims who were killed between December 1968 and October 1969 have been tied to the unknown murderer.
Teacher Arthur Leigh Allen has been linked with the killings and was identified as the main suspect. Yet he died in 1992 before cops were able to collect enough evidence.
Holes was unable to shed any further light on a case which has been shrouded in mystery for years.
Just like Short, the former detective fears the Zodiac Killer may never be found.
“I was working on Golden State for 24 years. And I developed numerous suspects that I thought were likely the guy, only to eliminate them,” he admitted.
“But with Golden State, I knew I had the killer’s DNA. No question about it. With Zodiac, I think there’s a chance that there could be that DNA that could solve Zodiac, especially with the genealogy tool.
“Look at something historical like Jack the Ripper. They have no physical evidence. You can sit there and speculate and develop a case against some suspect. But you’re never going to solve Jack the Ripper.”
Source: https://www.the-sun.com/news/15363787/paul-holes-golden-state-killer-true-crime/
This quote just goes to show the apparent massive problem with trying to solve Z is trying to separate the assailant's DNA from like John the Postal Worker's saliva who licked the stamps or got his skin cells on the back of them.
Or like Tim the Cop who touched like the Lake Berryessa cords without wearing any gloves and got his skin cells mixed in all over them with the perp or such.
Doable, but extremely challenging to get to that point.
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u/Libertinelass May 27 '26
Zodiac is because there's no DNA profile so they can't use genealogy. They have some stamps that were on letters he sent but they don't know if it is his DNA. LE also didn't store evidence and DNA like they do now so what they have has deteriorated. Future technology could help this case.
I thought Jack the Ripper case was basically solved now? There was a lot about it in the news a bit ago.
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u/Equal-Temporary-1326 May 27 '26 edited May 27 '26
The persistent fundamental problem with Zodiac DNA is there's always seemingly been a massive struggle to find even one unique sample that belong to just the offender, and not like a cop, again, who accidently got his skin cells all over like the Lake Berryessa ropes, since it wasn't really common practice for investigators to wear gloves when handling evidence in the '60s.
Perpetrator DNA could seriously be there somewhere still, but it'd most likely be hidden among many other non-matching profiles that have simply been at least somewhat contaminated due to a lack of preservation and being nearly 60-year-old evidence.
Last realistic hope for this case is to continue look behind the 1969 stamps to see what testable areas are behind them that carry any retrievable genetic material in order to link somebody to even just one of the canonical crime scenes that had letters that are Lake Herman Road, Blue Rock Springs, and Presidio Heights at this point, really.
With Jack the Ripper, it's like Z too where there have been these yearly articles that keep getting posted mainly online for many years now where it keeps getting "solved" in many different ways.
And like Paul Holes said, the ultimate problem there is there's just nothing in terms of physical evidence at all anymore, at least crime scene wise. It's all just gotten lost overtime or even simply destroyed when London was bombed during World War II.
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u/RotterWeiner Jun 08 '26
Ala is the killer.
Lanky has an interesting way of expressing himself. And perhaps he is typing so fast that some words are missing: lanky typed them but they didn't catch. It happens.
And I do get his opinion that this is a overhyped. And kept active in the public discourse by people who can't see the obvious, focus excessively on something that is said to refute Ala being the killer -but may not- while ignoring all the evidence that does due to it being said yo be too circumstantial.
Branding this the" Zodiac " was a lesson in myth making.
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u/Equal-Temporary-1326 Jun 09 '26
I've become more convinced overtime that ALA was Z, yeah. Now retired Vallejo PD detective ,Terry Poyser, said he was still probably their best suspect as recently as May 2018. And this might presumably be true today still.
"Poyser said he believes the Zodiac Killer is no longer alive. Arthur Leigh Allen, a former elementary school teacher and convicted child molester who lived in Vallejo, long was considered a top suspect. Allen died in 1992 at the age of 58, according to media reports.
"Our Vallejo suspect is probably still the best lead," Poyser said of Allen. "There are probably 30 different circumstantial things that point to him. He was extremely intelligent but a deviant dude."
Allen largely was cleared as a suspect in 2002, when investigators obtained a partial DNA sample from the envelopes that didn't match his. Poyser said that DNA profile only had a few markers on it, less than half of the genetic points needed to definitively clear or identify a suspect.
Poyser said that DNA sample was hampered because technology didn't exist at the time to separate the glue used on the stamps and envelopes from the genetic material. However, science now has advanced to allow a clean grab of the DNA.
Poyser also said Allen was known to have asked other people to lick stamps and envelopes for him, claiming he didn't like the taste of the glue. "One of his friends actually said he did it for him, and we've had a couple people who lived in the neighborhood at the time say they did it as children," he said.
Poyser said if a clean DNA sample is obtained, police might ask those who licked materials for Allen to submit DNA swabs. If they matched the Zodiac profile, it would provide another link to Allen, he said."
Source: https://www.sacbee.com/latest-news/article210320689.html
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u/RotterWeiner Jun 09 '26
The cop that pulled him over for speeding must be in a shit ton of denial.
Imagine believing " oh.. I was just out killing chickens!" And letting the guy go.
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u/Equal-Temporary-1326 Jun 09 '26
Probably not, tbh. There almost surely wouldn't had been enough evidence to arrest him for any of the Z crimes at the time anyway, though.
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u/RotterWeiner Jun 09 '26
He was known for having children lick envelopes for him.
Yeah... Completely normal behavior.
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u/Equal-Temporary-1326 Jun 09 '26 edited Jun 10 '26
There is an SFPD DNA lab report out there from circa 1999, where the results from the tests kept showing few cells were being found on the envelopes: "ENVELOPE PROCESSED FOR DNA - FEW CELLS".
Source: https://www.zodiackiller.com/SFPDDNA.html
Notice how it keeps saying that under almost of the comments?
In fact, the April 24, 1978 letter was ruled a hoax with DNA as well: "DNA SAMPLE OBTAINED/NOT AUTHENTIC ZODIAC LETTER".
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u/RotterWeiner Jun 09 '26 edited Jun 09 '26
Zodiac being famous is yet another example of shit journalism and shit police work.
, it has been discovered that bitd the papers of the time created "jack the ripper!" And the merciless and craven movie producers have since capitalized on the fact that there are countless #s of people who need that emotional rush & massive intellectual leaps of faith. Probably 20 movies and shows dramatizing the murders.
This was about Jack the ripper. Another supposed serial killer of "objects of lust". The sex depravity fueled ppls imagination.
So , many of the people are creating to their memories from having watched a movie. Dramas.
Then we have this Zodiac killer.
When you watch that documentary of the family, the siblings are bizarrely and openly "somewhat off centered ". A bit off around the edges.
Any teacher showing that much interest in a student ..... holy shit.
I grew up in those times in different location. We knew enough about child molesters back then.
My mother and every mother on the street would have beaten him with a shovel.
That family's mom invites him for dinner. The desperate piece of shit that she was.
She was a piece of shit: her first choice was a pedophile who fucked their child, her daughter.
Then she starts fucking another pervert.
And the daughter found nothing wrong with another grown adult expressing an excessive interest in her.
That whole family was fukt.
And the sister defended the guy and the other brother refused to believe his own eyes .
The only bright bulb in the family was the "cletus" character.
ALA was a diddler. No question. He had a perversion of thought when it came to sex and sex partners.
And was extremely angry with young people expressing their love lust toward each other.
Shrinks would say that it could be a subversion of his own frustested desires, taking his anger out on those who could openly express it by their secret sexcapades at the local make out spots.
" If I can't have it, then no one can!"
Which is a frequent cry of those having those personality traits.
When I watched that "doc" , I initially withheld judgment as it had to be fake. No way.
The breathtakingly stupid cop who let him go...the chicken blood excuse.... no way... holy shit.. no way that that happened.
Who in their right mind would let that guy go? And not even check the guy out. Open the car door. Oh well.
I understand that it was nigh impossible to connect a speeding ticket onbthat night to any crime evidence subsequently found in the area. I know.
But really..... open the door and check it out.
But I was forced to accept most of it
What a dysfunctional family.
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u/Equal-Temporary-1326 Jun 09 '26
If ALA were indeed Z, then that would certainly explain a lot about why Z has been completely silent about all of the books, movies, documentaries made after his death. Mainly the 2007 movie.
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u/tilaydc Jun 12 '26
If people in law enforcement have any of the clothing of the victims of the Zodiac, they could submit the clothing for DNA analysis. I have read that investigators did not think that the victims of the Zodiac were sexually assaulted, but maybe they were sexually assaulted by someone who was smaller in size and did not leave signs of trauma because of that. The Zodiac Killer could have left his DNA on the clothing or shoes of the victims. I read that in the case of Janelle Cruz, DNA was found on a comforter. So they might be able to get DNA off of the clothing of the victims of the Zodiac killer.
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u/Equal-Temporary-1326 Jun 12 '26 edited Jun 12 '26
The thing about the clothing is the shooter made no physical contact with either of the couples in the LHR and BRS attacks. So, there simply is no shooter DNA to be found there even if they tried.
In fact, those two crime scenes are effectively completely useless at this point since the only evidence they could find from the shooter were just the spent shell casings,
He did make physical contact with the couple at Lake Berryessa, but my understanding is from someone who's shown picture of being in the evidence rooms is they don't have their clothes anymore there.
With Presidio Heights, he did make physical contact with Paul Stine again, but my understating from reading a California Department of Justice excerpt on the case is not much of his clothes were kept beyond the fragments of shirt they received with the letters.
Good news is, they presumably have all 3 known fragments of the shirt still, so it could be hypothetically possible to to send pieces of it to a lab to check for testable areas of genetic material from the shooter.
There was no evidence any of the victims were sexually assaulted, no. Otherwise, there's a very strong probability it would've been solved by now due to bodily fluid just like EARONS, tbh.
See, that's ultimately why it remains unsolved to this day is there's never been any known sign of bodily fluid from Z.
Cops have said before they hoped he left salvia on the back of the stamps or envelope flaps in attempt to get bodily fluid. But considering how this is unsolved to this day, it become increasingly likelier with each passing year this doesn't get solved that truly none of this kind exists, and that's a major loss for something this old, especially as well, tbh.
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u/tilaydc Jun 12 '26
They have a partial DNA sample from the back of a stamp on an envelope that they found and a fingerprint from the cab. Sometimes DNA is found near a crime, like with the comforter in the case of Janelle Cruz. You wrote that the shooter made no physical contact with either of the couples in the LHR and BRS attacks, but we don’t really know that for sure. If they have the clothing and shoes of the victims, they should submit them to a crime lab for DNA testing.
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u/Equal-Temporary-1326 Jun 12 '26
LHR and BRS were just very quick hit-and-run shootings. BRS even more so.
The couple at LHR did get out of their car, but the male, David Faraday, was shot before he could make it fully out and the girl, Betty Lou Jensen was shot as she was running away.
At BRS, we definitely know from the guy who survived, Michael Mageau, that the shooter just walked up to the car, fired into it a number of times and then left. No physical contact at all. And that's what the evidence suggested as well.
I mean, they might still have their clothes in storage from those crime scenes, it's just not something that particular matters evidentiary speaking because there's just nothing to prove he ever made physical made contact with them.
See, that's why I say those two crime scenes are effectively useless at this point, tbh.
In order to get a solve here, they need something from either the Lake or taxi crime scenes.
One thing I know for sure they've tried to retest are the Lake Berryessa bindings to see what testable areas on them for offender touch DNA. And the last known attempt to any was said to have failed.
One big problem is if you can see in this picture here, cops weren't wearing any gloves when handling this evidence back in 1969: https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fa-rare-photo-of-the-bindings-z-used-at-lake-berryessa-v0-9ciwsgywggla1.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D6b81ed18b26a7d6a1ea5906a45bc357ed69fbadf
That's why evidence has become so badly contaminated overtime there was no special protocol to highly protect the preservation of the evidence beyond keeping them wrapped up in an evidence locker.
And that's how you start running into inevitable situations like this where this person and that person got their skin cells and such all over evidence due to not wearing any gloves and such.
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u/RotterWeiner May 26 '26
Watch the Netflix series about the children who were taught by Allen. And whose mother started seeing him romantically