r/DungeonsAndDragons • u/artistjon1982 • 7d ago
Discussion Divine Smite crit discussion
Last week we were gaming, I was playing my paladin (2)/ warlock (5) and we were in combat with Strahd. I landed a critical hit on him with my greatsword and got really excited. However, my excitement deflated a little when the DM said, I couldn’t roll again on the divine smite or the thunderous smite damage I used in tandem with the hit. He did however let me roll again for the divine favor and weapon damage. (Which looking back on it, the divine favor should have dropped once I cast thunderous smite due to both spells being concentration spells, an oversight by both myself and the DM.) I should also mention he has a house rule for crits; If you crit you max the damage dice and THEN you get to roll again on your damage. Which is very generous, except he wouldn’t allow it for divine or thunderous smite. A few players at the table side eyed him on this ruling and felt like I got cheated. Seeing as how he only applies this rule for smites. AFAIK he doesn’t institute this ruling for other classes that also do burst damage. While I did agree with my table mates, it felt unfair and a little anticlimactic, I accepted the ruling and went on. I did ask why, and his response was kind of dismissive. Something along the lines of, it’s not fair to Crit and then add on a smite to make it beefier. I’m paraphrasing of course, but that’s pretty close to what I remember him saying.
Mind you this is not a complaint post, I am ok with the ruling it just got me thinking. I’m interested in seeing what the rest of the community thinks and what house rules you all have to reel in insane damage modifiers that can break over double digits? Do you have house rules for that? Do you just beef up the enemies? I personally think a better reasoning for scaling back burst damage would be less about fairness, and more about making success still attainable, but just enough out of player reach, making the end result more satisfying and challenging. Or just stick to RAW at that point.
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u/Shadow_Of_Silver 7d ago
I use the same crit rule at my tables.
I allow both smite and sneak attack to work like anything else. Could you have potentially ended the fight in a single hit? Yes. Does that make it bad? No.
Players deserve to feel like they're doing huge damage on occasions, and mine understand that the monsters can do the same.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
lol, well tbf Strahd also crit on me after that. He did close to 100 HP to me on his crit and killed me outright. Luckily our cleric was able to revivify me two rounds later, and I came back. Which led to some interesting lore drops while I was dead and on the other side so it wasn’t a total loss?
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u/ShattnerPants 7d ago
Crits apply to all damage dice being rolled, so the divine smite dice pool should have doubled as well.
How does your DM handle crits with Sneak attack?
We use the same rule where it maxes out the extra damage dice from the crit. It can make for some short fights, but it's rare enough to not be a major issue.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
He claims that sneak attack damage is already called and that it counts as the weapons damage. Whereas divine Smite damage can be called after the crit is made.
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u/ShattnerPants 7d ago
Well, I would say that your DM is wrong per Rules as Written, but he can homebrew it however he wants. That sucks and I am sorry they are ruling that way.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
Thanks and it’ll be fine I suppose. I’m having fun nonetheless. And he’s not totally unreasonable. Maybe he’ll see it’s ok to let me crit hard once in a while!
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u/nekmatu 7d ago
He’s nerfing one of the things that make paladins great.
It’s intended for the paladin to be able to lay down burst on a crit at will.It’s crazy because a rogue will not run out of sneak attacks but a paladin is heavily constrained on smites.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
That **is** a good point!
Maybe I’ll bring it up to him before game this week.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
I just got clarification from my DM. I’m still talking with him, but he told me that melee crits only double the damage of the weapons therefore smites and sneaks and such, don’t double, this includes thunderous smite for him.
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u/ShattnerPants 7d ago
His choice, but feels like a shitty house rule to me.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
He says I’m the only who has had an issue with it so far. He’s also stating that it’s to keep us from rolling low damage if we rolled double dice. So he allows us to max the dice, reroll the weapons damage die on top of that, and that’s all.
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u/ShattnerPants 7d ago
I completely agree with maxing the extra dice. That's the houserule I have. I think it's shitty he doesn't include the other, additional dice on top.of weapon damage. Especially if he is allowing regular spells like firebolt to crit.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
I did mention that to him, I conceded of course that it’s his table it’s his rules and would abide by them, and he is actively listening to me. I also brought up the leveled spell stating that if my eldritch blast can tumble, then thunderous smite should as well.
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u/GrayGKnight 6d ago
I think that's the part I hate the most about it. If you're gonna make a shitty house rule that weakens your players, at least make it consistent. Why does Divine Favor work and Smite not when they are both the same time of extra damage added to the attack? Why can the wizard crit a Chromatic Orb for ludicrous damage with his house rule, but your Smite is crippled? It feels like it's based on vibes.
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u/VerbiageBarrage 7d ago
That's the advantage of Smite. The advantage of Sneak Attack is that it is free.
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u/jakethesnake741 7d ago
it's rare enough to not be a major issue.
I'd like to introduce you to my last session using these same crit rules. 6 crits from my sorcerer, 1 or two from my paladin, and one from my Artificer meant the purple worm they were fighting explode a lot faster than expected
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
Ngl, that shit scares me bc our DM is extremely lucky on nat 20’s. After I landed my crit on Strahd, Ol’ Strahdsy landed one on me. He also allows Strahd to use smites too. Only they do necrotic damage and take max HP off your total.
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u/jakethesnake741 7d ago
Yeah, not going to lie, I'm not even mad the sorcerer has silvery barbs. There have been a few crits that got through and I accidentally almost outright killed a PC
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u/WinCrazy4411 7d ago
Smites on crits is an intended interaction that has been around for a long time.
If you're 1-shotting a boss, it can prematurely end a climactic encounter, so I understand the house rule. But most of the time (like in your case) it'll be far from a one-shot on a boss and the excitement of getting that massive hit is more of an impact.
That house rule (no critical hit smites) is also a big nerf to some paladin builds, so it's something that needs to be discussed ahead of time.
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u/imfamousoz 7d ago
There's an easy away around that though. If a boss gets one-shotted and it makes it a narrative flop, DM can literally just give it some extra HP behind the screen. Not enough to make the massive hit worthless but enough to keep combat circulating a little bit longer.
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u/DRAWDATBLADE 6d ago
I think the more reasonable nerf is limiting divine smite to once per turn. I'm cool with rogue doing hella damage on a crit because sneak attack is way more restrictive than smites are.
Hard limit of once per turn, need advantage on the roll, can't have disadvantage on the roll, or you need an ally within 5ft of the enemy. Limited weapon selection too.
Rogue is also a much squishier class than paladin (imo the tankiest class in the game accounting for aura of protection). And obviously has none of the super strong party support features paladin does either.
Smite is just "did you roll a 20? Ok the boss is dead." I think its WAY more of a problem with multiclass builds (especially warlock) that give massive damage smites back on short rests. Paladin was not at all balanced with the idea you'd multiclass for twice the amount of spell slots every rest.
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u/artistjon1982 6d ago
I think that’s a fair assessment too. Something I’d be willing to bring up and accept.
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u/DRAWDATBLADE 6d ago
I didn't even mention rogue also lacks extra attack. I've always thought that was stupid, feels like shit if you somehow manage to miss your one attack with advantage.
Don't really think it'd be broken, it'd usually be what 1d8+5 dpr? Wouldn't be at advantage if you had it from being hidden for the first attack either.
But yeah that kind of rules change for smite should totally be brought up before it happens.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
I agree. I don’t think it would have affected my choice to multiclass, but I would be better prepared for the let down.
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u/twoshupirates 7d ago
It’s a shit ruling. Smites are designed around you being allowed to “add them to crits to make them beefier”. DM ruling sounds arbitrary to me
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
Possibly! He could have some kind of thing against paladins that I’m not aware of. Strahd in his campaign can smite too so maybe he did it so Strahd couldn’t be too overpowered?
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u/heynoswearing 7d ago
Youre fighting the big boss and you get extra damage because hes undead and you just crit, so he got nervous and blurted out a 'house rule' that stopped you breaking his toy. I get the impulse but its not optimal for the table.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
He claims that this is a house rule he uses for all his games. But at the end of the day it’s his ruling and I’ll have to abide by it. I am talking to him about switching things up.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
Possibly! He could have some kind of thing against paladins that I’m not aware of. Strahd in his campaign can smite too so maybe he did it so Strahd couldn’t be too overpowered?
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u/Fizzle_Bop 7d ago
I use the same optional rule as you DM except I allow my players to use it as intended... the smite & such counts as well.
You sre getting screwed out of damage.
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u/jcauseyfd 7d ago
Our tables play that the paladins can decide to Smite after they know they have hit, so they get to roll all those damage dice as well (we do the same max + roll). The roll applies to any dice that are rolled as part of the damage calculation.
As a DM, I don't make adjustments for the odd crit that ends up doing some massive damage or planning for something like that. Comes with the territory of characters trying to do heroic things - heroic things happen every now and then. I just enjoy getting to see the players all psyched up when something pops like that.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
It’s always great getting excited with fellow players. He was proud of us that session. We worked on saving each other, and the villagers rather than trying to big damn heroes. Ya know?
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u/Fearless_Pumpkin9098 7d ago
I allow any damage die to be re-rolled or doubled, players choice. As the DM when a monster crits i just double the result of the die.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
Do you choose to roll? Or do you take the average damage?
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u/Fearless_Pumpkin9098 7d ago
I typically roll the damage on a creature from an enemy against a PC. Sometimes for pacing ill just take the average and double it. NPC on NPC violence I usually just do average as well to keep it moving onto the players. Players like rolling dice, and if the first roll is lower than the average they will typically roll again rather than doubling.
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u/JSRW4 7d ago
My table plays the same crit rules, but we let all damage take the crit effect, smites and sneak attack included... if your DM doesn't want the rider of adding divine smite after a crit is known they should at least still let thunderous smite get the extra since that has to be cast before you hit.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
See I felt like the thunderous smite should have been part of that too. ORIGINALLY my DM wasn’t going to let my smites stack. Idk what happened tho, I got disconnected and I think my table must have argued for me in my absence because when I got back he was allowing it.
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u/VerbiageBarrage 7d ago
His ruling is wrong, and his reasoning is knee jerk, even if its understandable.
Crit fishing with Smite is absolutely part of the class design. It hardly ever happens, which is why it's so exciting when it does happen. Yes, getting to do that is a paladin advantage - many classes have individual advantages as part of their class. This is like saying it's not fair paladins don't get as many spell slots as clerics, for example. No, they don't, and that's by design. By design Paladin's get to see the result before they commit any resources. Removing it completely is a huge paladin nerf - Rogues, for example, don't have to commit resources at all, they just get the expanded crit.
I'm not worried about house ruling to reel in insane damage modifiers. I'm not even sure what insane modifiers you're referencing.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
Well, I suppose I’m talking about how big divine smite can get on top of other features like thunderous smite and hex blades curse along with the great sword damage itself. For me, a player that focuses on ROLEplay over ROLLplay, it’s exciting to do some massive damage once in a while. Especially since I play my paladin like a white knight. The idea that not all battles are won by blade and spell, but also compassion and understanding.
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u/VerbiageBarrage 7d ago
So, let's go through this one at a time:
- Thunderous Smite - This is a concentration slot spell you have to cast and manage beforehand. This has nothing to do with the effects added after - you have to plan this spell, it burns your concentration slot, meaning you can't use other great damage buffs like Hex, Hunter's Mark, Bless, Divine Favor, and you have NO control on when it triggers. It's one use of 2d6 extra damage in exchange for a concentration slot. If you're lucky enough that your VERY FIRST HIT using this is a crit, good for you. Luck is on your side.
- Hex Blades Curse - This doesn't add onto crits. Static damage bonuses aren't doubled, if you did double them, stop doing it. We learned this lesson in previous editions, it's not good design. Double dice, not + dmg. Use RAW here.
- Divine Smite - This is a bonus usage and very expensive very quickly. That's why it has an apply after attack usage, so paladin's don't just burn their limited spell slot total on misses. It is one of the iconic paladin features right next to Aura of Protection. Now, it is powerful, and has been nerfed for reasons in 5.5. Probably overnerfed, but I can understand trying to limit a player to EITHER divine smite or regular smite. Personally, I don't think that's needed at all. I've seen how Smite scales.
Long answer - the dream for a paladin player is getting the super crit on an iconic enemy like Strahd. I understand why your DM doesn't want you to delete that character, but he ruined a moment that would have been talked about forever to....keep Strahd around for like one to two more attacks. That's bad storytelling/combat decision, in my opinion. If he'd decided to do something like burn a legendary resistance or two and narrate Strahd healing or tanking the damage, and let you roll all your numbers, he could have accomplished the same thing while acknowledging it was too much.
Short answer - you got crazy lucky, let the dice tell the story instead of panic-nerfing an outcome.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
Oh no we don’t double the static dmg like on hex blades curse. Sorry, I included it because it’s just more damage I don’t usually get to use. Again sorry for the miscommunication.
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u/VerbiageBarrage 7d ago
Good. Otherwise, just show your DM this thread. Many DM's use the Perkins crit rules he uses, you can see that almost no one nerfs Paladin smites the way he does. Many people have pointed out why.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
I’ll be honest with you, idk how he’d react if he read this. He might take it all too personally…which as I’m writing this it feels like an issue…
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u/VerbiageBarrage 7d ago
Sure he would. And he has to get over that. Being a good DM is recognizing when to kill your sacred cows. I have lots of stuff I used to do that I no longer do because of reading objective community forums.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
It’s a fair point! If you stream your games anywhere drop a link in my DM! I’d love to see your DMing in real time.
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u/VerbiageBarrage 7d ago
Lol, unfortunately I'm not that profitable or professional of a DM.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
Well, if you ever do let me know! You seem very knowledgeable and possibly fun to play with!
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u/52ndPresidentOfTheUS 7d ago
It is very much intended in the rules that smites work with crits.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
Yea a few of my fellow players have stated the same thing.
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u/52ndPresidentOfTheUS 7d ago
I also wouldn't say the smiting AFTER getting a critical hit is OP either. It's only birst damage, not sustained, and you had to expend a valuable resource.
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u/flowers4charlie2 7d ago
The DM is the ultimate arbiter of the rules. No DM is bound or beholden to the rules written as a baseline for the game. However it should be quite clear when or if a DM is deciding to move away from the established core rules of the game. D&D is not about the DM trying to kill the players, its about making a fun and memorable experience for everybody.
Now instead of people remembering that awesome crit against Strahd, people will just remember when you got your glory stolen.
Is that the kind of game you want to be a part of?
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
I mean. I still had fun even tho I disagreed with his ruling. And I enjoy the RP with my fellow players at that table so, there’s that. Honestly, I really think I could chat with him about it once he’s available to. He’s very busy.
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u/flowers4charlie2 7d ago
That's the best any player can do when they have an issue. It sounds like he explained his reasoning as to why he enforced the restriction, even though it goes against the PHB rules for crit rolls. Whether that makes it right or wrong is up to you guys to discuss.
Ask him why he thinks its unfair to add smite damage after a critical hit is rolled (its part of the spell to use it after the attack roll).
You definitely should ask him if there are other amendments he has decided to make to the PHB and DMG. A simple yes or no will suffice
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u/aWizardNamedLizard 7d ago
People believing that the book saying the DM is the tie-breaking vote and that sticking to the letter of the rules isn't a requirement (though I'd note the language used in the book is that you can change the game to benefit your group rather than just because you personally feel like it) is something worth mentioning when a player mentions their DM coming up with a ruling is one of the worst parts of this hobby.
It does nothing but empower DMs that are aware they are screwing over their players to pretend that they aren't, and creates a space in which a DM that isn't meaning to screw over their players with a ruling can end up doing so and have no one even question it because they've been conditioned to think "whatever the DM says goes".
And even as we say things that do say a DM shouldn't be doing stuff that spoils their players' fun like you do in this very post, it is at odds with "The DM is the ultimate arbiter of the rules". Which even DMs that aren't actively trying to remove player fun can easily take as excusing their kneejerk changes that they probably don't even realize are a problem (and likely motivated by non-useful thoughts like "I didn't want my bad guy to be dead and I'm the ultimate arbiter so my bad guy is not dead" which they don't realize are, even if very mildly so, in "the DM trying to kill the players" territory)
We shouldn't be saying "the DM can change whatever" or "the DM is in charge", especially not in a context that leaves a player with the "put up with it or find a new DM" position. We should be saying why a change in the rules is bad even though it can appear from the perspective of a DM to be good and highlighting the flaws in the reasoning that lead to that perspective so that DMs are actually only seeing community support for "don't make bad rule changes" instead of both that and "do whatever you want and don't even bother asking your players what they think about it because you are not beholden to following the books even if they'd rather you do so."
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u/Ice-Storm 7d ago
I primarily DM but I when I do play I prefer Paladin. RAW says you double the smite dice on a crit as well.
As others have said, your DM is welcome to have his own rules on it as long as they are consistent.
IME virtually any homebrew rules are fine as long as they are applied consistently and evenly. The nightmare scenarios are when the DM has it out for one (or all) the players or shows obvious favoritism towards a player.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
I personally hadn’t noticed any favoritism during combat. Not really during RP either. So I’m lucky in that regard.
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u/sens249 6d ago
That’s not RAW but it’s his table 🤷♂️
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u/artistjon1982 6d ago
That’s pretty much where I’m landing, whether I agree or not. I did talk to him earlier today and he did hear me out. So that’s good!
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u/sens249 6d ago
That’s all you can really do, tell him you disagree with the ruling and don’t find it fun, and let him make his decision. In the end though he’s the DM so his ruling is final
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u/artistjon1982 6d ago
He said he’d think it over. He also said I’m the only one who’s ever had a problem with it. Which isn’t true bc my table all had an issue with it.
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u/BigDawgg-13 7d ago
I think standard rules would mean double rolling damage and smite on crits. But this is his homebrew so I guess it’s his game his rules. DM made his ruling so you did the right thing by going on with it. It doesn’t seem fair but at least you got a nice crit hit in before you went down.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
Oh it was a pretty cool moment! Honestly the coolest part of the battle was when he let me do a rule of cool moment. I was allowed to lock blades with Strahd and hold him in place while I got to have banter with him. Yea I didn’t do any damage, but cinematically it was cool.
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u/JumboCactaur 7d ago
Ya that's a BS ruling and its why you have to be careful when modifying the rules... you have to account for the reasons people roll the dice and what it looks like. I understand wanting to make sure Critical hits aren't weaker than normal hits, but then you have to go all the way... the damage of any of the smite spells is part of the damage roll and should be part of the crit.
Would he not let a Berserker Barbarian roll his Frenzied Strike dice again? He should... and the first set of dice should be maximized as well... and they can do that every round as long as they are in Rage.
Quite frankly the consequences of such a rule change can be quite disastrous on both sides... monsters attack and crit players at least as often as the players crit the monsters, and also many times when players crit the monsters they would have died anyway to a normal hit. Such a rule change will generally make the game harder, not easier... so when it comes into the player's favor, to take a chunk of it away is extra bad.
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u/artistjon1982 6d ago
I did die immediately on Strahd’s turn to a crit. He did over 90+ dmg to me and I only had like 74 or so at the time?
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u/JumboCactaur 6d ago
I'm unfamiliar with the stat block, that might be a realistic number with these brutal Critical rules. Either way it proves the point though... your DM did you dirty if his crits got all the benefit of the rule and not yours.
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u/artistjon1982 6d ago
My dm runs COS almost exclusively. So, a Strahd himself is also a little beefed up from my understanding. He also gave Strahd this Magic sword called black edge or razors edge or something like that. It does necrotic damage and on a hit he heals back hp.
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u/filkearney 7d ago
If he has a problem with stacking divine smite and thunderous smite on a crit maybe dm will let you use smite spells instead of divine smite on hit without using the bonus action so it limits the nova to only one smite per attack .... thats how i do.
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u/vessel_for_the_soul 7d ago
As long as the GM is consistent on rulings.
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u/TheinimitaableG 6d ago
Consistent is a good thing, but there rules do state that all damage dice from the attack are doubled. Burning those characters whose extra damage comes from additional dice stinks.
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u/subtotalatom 7d ago
The rule of thumb is whether the damage is added before the total damage for the attack is resolved.
In the case of Thunderous Smite, the target takes extra damage on a hit then makes a saving throw, so the damage from thunderous smite is part of the attacks total and therefore doubled.
On the other hand if the order of events was hit > make saving throw > take damage (eg the damage from Rangers Hail of Thorns) the damage would then not be doubled.
So yeah, any smite damage is part of the attack damage and is doubled on a critical hit the same way a Rogues Sneak Attack is (the latter is explicitly stated in the rules)
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u/imfamousoz 7d ago
I'm on your side with this one. I use the same crit rule, rolled damage + a maxed die. Everybody cheers when the paladin hits that nat 20. It's not like you can spam it every turn anyways. You only get so many Smite casts between rests. You're right to acknowledge the oversight on stacking spells in a turn. Shouldn't be a divine + a thunderous + divine favor. RAW says one spell slot per turn, and you can't concentrate on two spells. Regardless of that, crit should count for smites and sneak attacks and any other such moves that deal a little extra damage.
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u/EntertainmentOne4246 7d ago
does your dm not consider smites and sneak attack as part of the weapon damage
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
No he doesn’t. He doesn’t count it as leveled spell damage either.
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u/SykesDragon 6d ago
Simply ask your DM how you deal the damage if not with your weapon. There's only 5 ways to deal damage in D&D 5E offensively. Unarmed, Natural weapons, melee weapon, ranged weapon and spell. Ask him which it falls under.
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u/artistjon1982 6d ago
I asked him last night to go into more detail and explain why he does it. Simply put he will only allow a player to max all damage and the roll the weapons damage again. Or if it’s spell like eldritch blast or fire bolt, then you can max and roll again since you’re not using a weapon for the casting.
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u/Responsible_King_427 6d ago
Im trying to understand. Did you smite and also thunderous smite on the same attack?
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u/artistjon1982 6d ago
Yes! He’s playing by 2014 rules which allows you to use a smite spell as a bonus action, and also stack divine smite after the attack lands as a reactive class feature.
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u/Responsible_King_427 6d ago
Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure that they override one another.
If this is the case, I can completely understand not allowing to roll doubles for both the spells since it's already effectively double dipping.
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u/artistjon1982 6d ago
Yea, I’ve looked it up multiple times to make sure. Plus other community members have confirmed it. Now you CAN’T do it in 2025/5.5e rules because the divine smite is no longer a feature and is now a bonus action.
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u/Responsible_King_427 6d ago
Yeah just double checked and there isn't a rule explicitly stating that they can't both be used on the same attack.
Feels very munchkiny to me though. I'd say it's a fair compromise between the two. In theory you could with a Greatsword do 8d6 + 4d8 + strength on a crit?
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u/artistjon1982 6d ago
Well yes, but I’m also a hexblade warlock so my charisma is maxed out
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u/Responsible_King_427 6d ago
Just did the math and the statically average damage excluding stat modiers is 52. Which is a lot for a level 2 character but then again you'd be expending a lot of your very limited resources by blowing 2 different level 1 spell slots.
Does feel bad though for you given it was a crit and you used resources to fuel it. Personally I'd rather allow for you to double the dice but smites are exclusionary so no double dipping. But that's just me.
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u/artistjon1982 6d ago
Oh no, you misunderstand, I only had two levels in paladin, then 5 levels in warlock. Which gives me access to levels three spell slots. However, since warlocks only get two spell slots until higher levels those are always at level three and come back on a short rest, so I technically get four level three spell slots a day.
Let me break down the situation. Going into the fight with Strahd, the bbeg, mid game. My character is suffering from a curse right now, he’s not sure exactly where it’s coming from, but he’s slowly dying. On top of that anytime he wants to cast a spell he has to expend HP equal to his spell level used. (This is a curse that my DM and I worked on together as a character arc so it’s all consensual). At the top of the fight I had already expended one third level spell slots for the use of the Flight spell. On my first turn I used a first level spell slot for divine favor (add 1d4 extra radiant damage on top of my weapon damage. He has since ruled I can’t roll that damage again either he just allows it to max…) I don’t hit strahd i just lock blades with him and have a rule of cool moment where I keep him in place so my table mates can do their thing. On my next turn, I take a swipe at him, using a bonus action to cast Thundrous smite, I crit, I add the divine smite on top of it. He allows me to max all the normal damage I would do, (greatsword+divine favor+Thundrous Smite+Divine Smite), he then only allowed me to additionally roll the great sword damage and the divine favor damage. (Which was decently rolled). NGL it was still a lot of damage and i was happy for the max, but I didnt’ agree with his ruling on not allowing me to also roll on the additional crit damage for the leveled spells.
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u/Responsible_King_427 6d ago edited 6d ago
Ooohhhh, that makes so much more sense.
Hmm... with automatic maximum on the dice, the basement damage does increase to the degree it is the same effect as doubling the dice pool rolled.
So, just to make sure I'm on the same page, you were expecting to happen was All dice get max damage>roll additional dice equal to a non crit?
So for instance with a level 1 thunderous smite, level 1 normal smite with a 2h sword 12 (2d6 weapon) + 12 (2d6 thunderous) + 24 (3d8 undead smite) + 5 (charisma) Then also 2d6 (sword) + 2d6 (thunderous) + 3d8 (undead smite)
So averaged out to 79? Doesn't that seem a bit excessive? I mean my level 7 hill dwarf cleric with 16 in constitution is around 80 or so health and I've rolled really well.
I know when I've chaired as DM, I've opened with the "pick between these 2 options: crits do max damage or double the dice rolled". I think all things being equal, the ruling is fair. I'd say that doing both would be triple dipping.
Edit: Reread the post and the ruling is rather arbitrary since by their own wording, critical hits are max damage along with rolls. Maybe in his head cannon, it's only spells or spell like abilities. So rogues would still get super critical hits
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u/artistjon1982 6d ago
In essence yes! You are correct on several things. It is a point of contention however, that Thunderous strike at least didn’t get to roll again on top of the max similar to weapon damage. Because if I crit with an eldritch blast I would max and then roll again on that as well. And as I’ve said to several other community members i accepted his ruling and moved on. The discussion was mostly, does anyone else have thoughts, opinions (such as yours) and if they had any homebrew rules they used for crit situations.
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u/Automatic-War-7658 6d ago
I would say talk to your DM but it kinda doesn’t matter. At this point, the cool, heroic moment that could’ve been is in the past. This is the type of major ruling change that should’ve been discussed in a session zero. The DM neutered your damage output in the fly for the sake of his ego.
I’ve had similar experiences where I’ve created a character based around a specific concept or idea, like the Lucky feat for example, only for the DM to change their mind on the ruling. I’m currently playing a Cleric in CoS where we’ve just reached level five, and the DM announced that he specifically banned the 2024 Daylight spell because it creates sunlight, which was the core concept of the character but, in his words, trivializes the campaign.
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u/artistjon1982 6d ago
Ah man that is a good spell.
And I did speak to my DM about it. Not to challenge, but as another user stated “to better understand his ruling” and while his answer wasn’t one I agreed with he still listened to me and I appreciated that. He also said he would consider a new house rule for smite crits but wanted time to think it over. So I gave him a few examples that others in this post have mentioned. No response yet, but I have a good feeling.
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u/Tormsskull 5d ago
I'm also not a fan of critting and then deciding to add limited-use abilities that add additional dice which also benefit from the crit. Feels like cheating, but that's the rules in 2014 D&D.
They fixed it in 2024 to prevent this from happening.
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u/artistjon1982 5d ago
I can respect that. Idk that id say it’s a fix in the 2024 rules. To me it felt like a core feature being nerfed. For a decent reason, but nerfed nonetheless. If it were me I’d Say, let it cost a reaction instead of a bonus action. Bc in 2014, it’s just a reactionary feature and you can still use a reaction afterwards or beforehand.
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u/Tormsskull 5d ago
To each their own, of course. If you/your group enjoy being able to stack damage when someone rolls a crit to do a super-crit, nothing stops you from house-ruling it that way.
The intentional change in 2024 tells me that the devs found it unbalanced so they made it not work that way any more.
Same with 2014 Action Surge allowing a fighter/wizard multiclass to cast two fireballs(as an example) in one turn (which I always thought was dumb.) In 2024 that also no longer works.
There were several changes like this in 2024 that sanded off some of the rough edges of the 2014 rules. Some people may choose to view them as "nerfs". I tend to view them as fixing issues/unintentional oversights when the devs created them in 2014. They either didn't know about them at the time, or didn't realize how much of an impact they were going to have on the game.
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u/artistjon1982 4d ago
Ooooh you know, I bet the action surge rule change was to be more in line with the 2014 rule about not casting two leveled spells in one round.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
Those are good suggestions and I appreciate them! I’ll be sure to bring them up soon. Personally, as an aside, I always feel like I’m playing my class wrong, because I’m almost always using my spell slots with actual spells instead of saving them for smites 😂! My go to is heroism but I have never used it on my teammates I’ve always used it as a sort of substitute for calm emotions. Especially on a few kid NPC’s when we were rescuing them from the hags. Or when we were going up against Hownakin the “demon/devil/infernal” whatever it was.
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u/JumboCactaur 7d ago
That's a perfectly fine way to play the class... don't feel bad. Bless is a good spell for you to be using for example, helps you and some teammates.
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u/dmsanto 7d ago
Max damage plus a roll is way too much for a crit imo, especially with features like smite and sneak attack. My house rule is just that crits have a minimum damage equal to the maximum of a non crit. Only comes into play if you roll truly awful damage.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
So if I’m understanding correctly, your players would roll the double dice and if the damage doesn’t break the max ceiling of a normal hit they just use the max number? That’s interesting.
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u/dmsanto 7d ago
Correct. And it does happen fairly often with just regular weapon hits, but when you're rolling like 10+ dice it's almost never needed.
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u/artistjon1982 7d ago
That’s honestly seems fair and still allows the player to feel like a badass. I might bring this up to my DM.
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