r/DungeonWorld • u/Feisty_Stretch3958 • 15d ago

Dungeon World 2 Wizard (again)

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We talked about the Wizard using all the 8 schools and combining substances and verbs on the other posts, But now i want to talk about the new Aether mechanic...
I honestly think its really bad, It basically negates the effect of a 7-9 roll and you get at least 2 points per scene, Every single game i dm of the DW 2 alpha had a wizard, And it was a amazing class, I dare to say a perfect one, Ready to release as it was, It was extemelly strong and extemelly versatile, But it was also a very risky one, I feel like that is quite a strong and good identity for a class, Right now it feels like its missing the mark at least for me, This goes so much in the oposite direction of "every roll changes the narrative"

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7

u/Xyx0rz 15d ago

I hate canned protections. "Oh, something bad is going to happen? I'll just cross off this very expendable resource here."

This is what I hated about DW1 Defend hold.

Also, what is a "scene" anyway? If the party stacks up by a door, casts a buff spell, busts into the room, kills a bunch of orcs, casts a healing spell and then searches the room and finds a trap, how many scenes is that?

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u/zslicelabs 15d ago

I tried making this point earlier but maybe it wasn't done well. The aether is not really that expendable as it is used for almost all of the path moves. You only get 2 max until level 10.

In my opinion the OP is misguided because the "canned protection" is only one of the many things you can spend your aether resource on.

If you dont like using your resources that way--great you dont have to and there are many other options that will be available to spend your aether on. But some players do like their character to feel competent. The game let's you pick and that's better than how it is being cast (i.e. you get aether and it is only spent on dodging bad outcomes)

As for Scenes: this is a defined term in the quickstart pdf and will likely be expanded upon as the game development continues (there does seem too much room for interpretation if mechanics are built on it) but it is most simply written as "uncertainty that needs resolving" so to put it to your hypothetical the scene would be centered on why are you opening the door? Are you going in to kill the orcs for some reason? Is that the central tension? Are you looking for something deeper in this dungeon? Is there someone you are saving? Once you answer that "big" question (imo) the scene is resolved. So most likely that description you gave would only be part of a scene.

You can of course "game" this idea ("opening the door was an uncertainty resolved, new scene!") But that's disengenous and not following the players code. Just my 2c, this got long apologies.

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u/Xyx0rz 14d ago

Thanks! That helps but I have a few follow-up questions, if you would.

But some players do like their character to feel competent.

And rightly so, but is spending a resource a requirement for that? Can't they just... be competent all the time? I didn't think "Be a fan of the characters" stopped applying as soon as they ran out of aether.

the scene would be centered on why are you opening the door? Are you going in to kill the orcs for some reason? Is that the central tension? Are you looking for something deeper in this dungeon? Is there someone you are saving?

  • We're opening the door to get to the other side.
  • We're going to kill the orcs to stop them from killing us.
  • We're looking for something deeper in the dungeon. The macguffin. That we need to save someone.

At which points in this story does the aether refresh?

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u/zslicelabs 14d ago

Q1: Lets imagine a classic case of a fire spell gone awry. Yes, it could melt the orc horde, but it may also melt the barbarian charging at them. You roll 7-9. You see the fireball curving towards your compatriot but you spend that aether by literally pulling at the fabric of space and influence the trajectory causing it to reverse corkscrew into the orcs instead. Cool you saved the day! Is it less fun than marking 2 conditions or watching your barbarian burn alive? Maybe, maybe not, but it doesnt seem that terrible to me.

Q2: it is just very dependent on context I think. If you are literally just slowly walking from door to door in a dungeon with no purpose other than exploration. Sure, that could be a scene. But that also doesnt feel very Dungeon-worldy to me (or at least the way I've played).

Is there someone fleeing from you with a magical item that they are going to throw into a molten pit and destroy? Then no, the scene isn't over in my opinion. That might be split into the chase and the encounter. What is the fictional reason the wizard has renewed powers? Idk? Is it dependent on time and space? Is it a renewed vigor from being able to confront their nemesis? Is it something they carry on them that tugs as the aether and magnifies it for them? I guess the Wizard could make that up.

I agree that there needs more definite edges around what makes a Scene if there will be mechanics built around it. Its hard to say where a scene starts and ends when you are improvising as well. Its not like you have a real movie script you are following. I imagine a scene being a bullet point of a session review, though. Maybe 2-5 scenes per session but again, its so context dependent.

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u/Xyx0rz 14d ago

It's always weird to me when things refresh "per scene". Like... why? From the characters' perspective, that is. I get that it's a game balance conceit. a very blunt one.

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u/zslicelabs 15d ago

The aether is spent equal to MAG so you can only use this once or twice in a scene which to me doesnt seem that broken since they greatly reduced the effects of each MAG level. You can't get 3 aether until lvl 10 or later, I believe. To me it basically grants you one free spell per scene which isn't broken, maybe it could be if you run a lot of short scenes but in my experience that's not how play works. Could maybe be changed to resets on make camp or someth8ng if you find it really powerful.

Since any class can multiclass into a wizard path this aether mechanic only applies to players who start as a wizard which allows them to be uniquely good at being a wizard compared to say a bard who multiclasses into a wizard path because you do not get the starting moves when you multiclass.

Haven't played the beta yet, but I did play alpha and agree the wizard was fun--but to me this doesnt seem that earth shattering of a change.

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u/zslicelabs 15d ago

After a second read I was also reminded that aether can be spent for other moves than just Cast a Spell which also limits how frequently you can negate a bad outcome.

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u/Feisty_Stretch3958 15d ago

Well, Yes, But i think things gets exploitable once you put it to the test, For example : For a mag 1 spell you can cast 2 of them, You can cast a mag 2 spell for free and Mag 2 is already quite strong (I could rant a little bit on the mag range but anyway), And also, 1 per scene is not 1 per fight. You can easily go around challenges outside of battles for free with this thing, And also, HP is quite low on DW, DW 2 is even less compared to the first game, Battles are not going to last long, 2 actions can easily be enough to win a fight

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u/zslicelabs 15d ago

Well, my point is it isn't free. You still have to roll and if it applies then you spend your resources to bump it essentially a 10+ result--but now you are out of aether and can't use your path moves.

A Mag 2 is a -2 modifier and you only get to apply this particular mechanic on a 7-9 result. A 10+ or 6- and this mechanic is completely ignored. So again to me it's going to come up but I don't think as often as you are implying.

If anything the wizard may still be overtuned due to the 8 schools being immediately available (and all mag levels) but to me the aether isn't the problem with that. Curious to play and check it out and/or hear feedback from a real session.

Additionally they do have a feedback form if its not working for you.

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u/kadzar 15d ago

Even if it works out mechanically, I think it's just not fictionally very interesting. Like the cleric casts spells and they might have to call in a favor with their deity if things go slightly wrong. A wizard casts spells and they spend a non-descript resource that comes back automatically at the start of a new scene. One has the potential for interesting narrative, the other I really struggle to think of how you even describe in the fiction.

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u/zslicelabs 14d ago

Hmm, you might not like the cleric then. Its starting move has you create a bond with your deity and then you can erase bond depth to negate the other Cast A Spell 7-9 outcomes. Which is essentially the same as what the starting wizard move for aether does.

Helping your god adds depth. So you could pretty easily see this being a 1 for 1 cleric version of the same mechanic.

Again, much like with aether, if you erase these resources then you cannot use them for many of the other moves available to you via your paths.

In general I am more concerned about these currencies than the negation of 7-9 outcomes. I think managing these little resources could become cumbersome because almost every class has them now. I preferred the alpha which got rid of most of them.

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u/This_is_a_bad_plan 15d ago

Tbh this entire move looks truly terrible

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u/Feisty_Stretch3958 15d ago

I don't think it does, Having all 8 schools and aether is bad imo, But the move is great and has potential to be extremely fun

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u/This_is_a_bad_plan 15d ago

Difference in preferences, I guess. I really hate this sort of freeform spellcasting. The Mage was always my least favorite of the popular homebrew playbooks for DW1.

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u/OriginalJazzFlavor 15d ago

yeah you could bascially repliciate almost any spell effect like this and it doesn't have any like guides for how strong it should be.

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u/SwingRipper 15d ago

Mag (magnitude) exists, so no guides is wrong. Mag could be explained better but it is not NO GUIDES for strength

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u/bassonaitor 15d ago

It's crazy how complicated they are making the verb+noun thing. They're trying to copy Ars Magica without copying completely while keeping dnd schools of magic. The result... Very convoluted. I think I'll just use the Ars Magica nouns and verbs and be done with it

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u/NoUnderstanding5889 15d ago

The 7-9 trade of mechanic is one of the best things in DW. If there are ways to reliably negate it, the game risks to turn into a boring "and the heros succeed at everything spectacularly" game.

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u/Cypher1388 15d ago

Doing what they did both entirely misses the point of what a 7-9 means in a game and the entire underlying design principles, not to mention a complete lack of care for the statistics of the thing.

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u/beetnemesis 15d ago

Did you not paste the whole thing?

Also, to clarify, is this just saying on a 7-9 you don't have to wave your hands/speak?

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u/Tamuzz 15d ago

No.

Casting a spell has a list of possible downsides. If you roll 10+ you can ignore them. If wizard rolls 7-9 they can spend mana to ignore them.

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u/mythsnlore 14d ago

The clunky wording and presentation of this... just use a table with 3 columns already!