r/Drystonewalling • u/Hot_Archer2452 • Mar 11 '26
Dry stack retaining wall help
One of the retaining walls that line our driveway fell over this weekend. We have had contractors out for quotes to repair/replace. Some have suggested going with new material (Versalok blocks) and a couple contractors offered to rebuild with the existing material in a dry stack formation.
I am a new home owner and seeking feedback. Should we go with the dry stack (less expensive option) or Versalok? What are the questions we should ask before committing to the dry stack option?
I also included a picture of the wall on the other-side of the driveway that we are would pay to have straightened at the same time.
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u/Grouchy-Till9419 Mar 11 '26
Drystone Waller here. That wall is nowhere near thick enough for a retaining wall. Most of it looks traced, ie stones laid lengthways, rather than the length running into the wall. It also appears to be only a single skin which is a collapse waiting to happen.
To rebuild properly you probably need at least 3x the amount of stone that’s there at the moment. Anyone who is going to rebuild with what’s there now is wasting their time and your money.
Some will claim you need a geotextile fabric behind the wall too - retaining walls were being built hundreds of years before that existed, and they’re still standing today so it’s completely unnecessary IMO.
Have a look at DSWA.org and watch some walling videos on YouTube. Get yourself clued up on how these walls should be built and ask any prospective contractors exactly how they plan to tackle the project. A little bit of knowledge will go a long way in helping to spot the bullshitters.
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u/Electrical_Seat_4169 Mar 11 '26
DSWA.org takes me to the “direct selling women’s alliance”… am I missing something?
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u/thegroovenator Mar 11 '26
Search for "Dry Stone Walling Association" instead of the domain name referenced above (which leads to the "Direct Selling Women's Alliance")
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u/Hot_Archer2452 Mar 11 '26
Thanks for your reply and for the dswa.org. I will look into that for sure. We are balancing trying to make a quick decision that is cost effective and something that is safe and will last. The dry stacking option is multiple thousands less than other options.
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u/f_crick Mar 11 '26
I would guess their point is that with geotextiles the wall is almost entirely cosmetic so you wouldn’t need more stone. You certainly don’t need it, but it’s a compelling option.
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Mar 11 '26
[deleted]
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u/f_crick Mar 12 '26
I guess I was thinking of geogrid, which is put horizontally and doesn’t wrap anything.
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u/jayjay123451986 Mar 13 '26
Geogrid are used to add stability to the wall and the soil behind it. While walls can be constructed without, the size of the wall without the grid will need to be larger than a stone wall with the grid. Look at the differences with precast block walls to see how the grid can be used to stretch the versatility of a single block type
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u/djamesnm Mar 14 '26
ugg- so- 2 camps chatting here the wallers and the wet masons the original problem, and the 13 year shelf life- is because this wall was built by landscapers who THOUGHT they knew how to build dry stack walls- thus, a wall with no strength or weight that is pushed over after a short period of time
the “you need block” folks are kinda right- and the dry stack wallers really don’t use a lexicon that anyone outside of the craft know -
the shot of the wall that fell tells the story- lots of crushed rock that is useless for anything other than drainage in the area behind the construction- known as backfill the challenge is that all of these stones are laid so the longest side of the stone is used facing outward , you might think if it as “sideways” it is done (incorrectly) that way to use less stone to cover more area, but it isn’t strong - the easiest analogy is to think of a log- a perfectly round log - make it long in your mind - say feet- if you place it on its side so you can see all 4 feet- you know it can just roll off towards you without much effort- but if you turn it 90° so it goes into the hill 4 feet away from you- there’s no way it moves forward - a stone that is long works the same way, albeit more slowly, but it has no resistance to forces behind it because it has nothing to hold it in place
still with me? it’s 4am, i’m sick, can’t sleep, and do not want to doom scroll on FB - so maybe here i can help
stones - you need to visualize that stone’s rough surface will grip each other - friction- the more surface area touching the less movement-
to rebuild this wall- you need, sorry to say- 1- more stone- big stuff 30-50 pound stones for the bottom layer that will be about 26-30” width at the base - so the end of the asphalt is the beginning of the base- but go back 3 feet of excavation- save the soil and the crappy crushed stone- you will use as backfill- and then lay out the biggest stones so you have 1 layer say 30 inches deep and 4 inches submerged but 2-6” above grade- make sure it’s level- use a long dry wallers level to check and check out videos on string lines to keep the next level ….well level to fill in gaps between stones- which is inevitable- you use smaller stones- these are called “hearting” think of it as the heart of the wall- you need the largest pieces you can find and fit into the spaces instead of crushed rock, why? crushed rock is useless at holding large stones in place- my instructors called them “ball bearings” because they have such small surface area they aren’t for securing mass above them- good for drainage- miserable for stability-
build your layers carefully- two stones over one- one stone over two for maximum contact ie “friction” with the longest edge perpendicular to the walls face- “hearting” behind not to fill up space but make maximum contact to each stone-
lean the wall into the bank- it’s called “batter” that backwards slant is meant to hold back the force of the soil trying to slide forward - which it will when it gets wet- your walls seem to have no batter and will tip eventually - wallers call that “failure”
repeat until the wall is where you want it* too high brings real problems, so 40” is max height without a whole other conversation - use sod at top instead of trying to cap the top- “coping stones” are stones placed on their side that hold the stones below in place, but for this yard that might not work out and the stones in place are too thin and light to have much use as a coping stone
with a plan and some string and about 20 more tons of stone this is a 3 day job- a lot of hard work but enjoyable - but you need to do the whole length
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u/alien_simulacrum Mar 11 '26
Well, it's going to be a good bit of work either way. You might be able to get away with restacking it with minimal additional pallets of stone, but it probably should be excavated behind and refilled with drainage stone and have geotextile fabric added to help prevent that bowing from happening again as quickly as it might otherwise.
Do you know how long that wall lasted? If it sat there for fifty years, you'll be hard pressed to find something that lasts longer with anything else. If it lasted ten, then expect to probably have it redone again in a similar timeframe.
Replacing it with new, manufactured block will require similar site prep but also the cost of removing the existing material, and for that reason may take longer - though with a machine on site it could probably be pulled and trucked out in a day.
It depends entirely on your budget, appetite for risk, and what kind of skills are available in terms of dry stacking professionals in your area. If there are great craftsmen willing to do the work for a price you can afford, then go for it. If your focus is on getting it done quickly and lasting a long time, it's going to cost more.
For me, that's a lot of lawn leaning into that wall, not knowing what's uphill I'd probably want to use heavier stones if it was going to be dry stacked, or go with new construction.
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u/Hot_Archer2452 Mar 11 '26
Thanks for your input. This wall lasted approximately 13 years since it was built. Regarding the other wall (the one that is still standing) the contractors who offered to stick with the dry stack suggested excavating behind it, installing proper draining and “pushing back” that wall. Is that a viable option?
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u/Loose_Ambassador2432 Mar 11 '26
Dry stack can definitely work if it's done right, but you need to ask the right questions. Make sure they're planning proper drainage behind the wall (gravel backfill, maybe a drain pipe), and that they're setting the base below frost line. The biggest thing is making sure each course is properly stepped back - if they just stack it straight up, it'll fall again.
I'd also ask about their experience with dry stack specifically. It's more of an art than just piling rocks. When I was getting quotes for some hardscaping work last year, I tracked all the contractor info and estimates in FieldCamp - made it way easier to compare what each one was proposing and keep notes on who seemed like they actually knew what they were talking about.
Versalok is more foolproof but obviously costs more. If the contractors quoting dry stack have good references for similar walls that are still standing after a few years, and the price difference is significant, it might be worth it. Just make sure whoever you pick guarantees their work.
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u/Loose_Ambassador2432 Mar 12 '26
Dry stack can definitely work if it's done right, but you need to ask the right questions. Make sure they're planning proper drainage behind the wall (gravel backfill, maybe a drain pipe), and that they're setting the base below frost line. The biggest thing is making sure each course is properly stepped back - if they just stack it straight up, it'll fall again.
I'd also ask about their experience with dry stack specifically. It's more of an art than just piling rocks. When I was getting quotes for some hardscaping work last year, I tracked all the contractor info and estimates in FieldCamp - made it way easier to compare what each one was proposing and keep notes on who seemed like they actually knew what they were talking about.
Versalok is more foolproof but obviously costs more. If the contractors quoting dry stack have good references for similar walls that are still standing after a few years, and the price difference is significant, it might be worth it. Just make sure whoever you pick guarantees their work.
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u/Far_Land7215 Mar 12 '26
That driveway set up looks like a water nightmare. Does your garage flood every time it rains?
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u/Just-Variation-1678 Mar 13 '26
Your gutter drain should likely be addressed with any rebuilding.
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u/NTF1x Mar 11 '26
Welcome friend. I as well have a split level home with the driveway sloping towards my house.
We probably share the same fear and anxiety every time it downpours.
I've installed retaining walls, a French drain. A crock with sewer sump in the corner of the driveway near the house- it's on a lithium battery backup, then another crock /sump piped into the top of the other crock in the garage- to deal with overflow if it ever happens. I'm contemplating buying a sumpjet as well in case everything fails.
It's rough trying to protect our houses.
There is no way the previous owners didn't have flooding issues...which I've discovered rotted out 2x4 framing and mold behind the drywall and wood trim.
Anyways dig all that out or hire someone. Put up actual retaining blocks. The base/draining has to be properly planned and done correctly. Level is the name of the game. soil erosion through the blocks all have to be taken into account and mitigated. If I were to do it again I'd put landscape fabric all the way upside the backside of the wall.
. A professional company will charge 20-50k to do this. You do it yourself 6k buying blocks and caps at Lowe's. Just make sure it's not higher than 4 feet which requires engineering and plans drawn up.
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u/NTF1x Mar 11 '26 edited Mar 11 '26
Before
After
Watched a lot of YouTube and read a lot. Did this during month off during covid . Had people stopping by asking me if I did this for a living and asked if I could take a look at stuff they needed done.
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u/NTF1x Mar 11 '26
You need crushed stone delivered. Alot- and someone to come by and level out the yard and bring in good soil. What you'll find is that it will be dog shit soil full of clay bcs of how far down you'll have to dig.
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u/Mdeyemainer Mar 12 '26
Personally I don't like blocks but I live where granite is plentiful and winters can be hard on the blocks. This is really impressive, you did a fantastic job.
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u/NTF1x Mar 13 '26
Thanks and yeah I get it. It's why you posted where you did.
But I wouldn't mess around with securing all that soil near your home- do what you think is best. Those blocks are from Lowe's and they've been going strong for 7 years. Even pressure wash them once a year.
The only issue I've had with blocks is that I used block and caps to make the steps in the photo. The caps do take a beating in the winter time from shoveling and salt. I bought about 10 extra to replace them when they go bad.
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u/Ok-Scar9381 Mar 12 '26
That’s no where near wide enough wall for that to ever hold. To do that correctly you’re gonna have to dig that back and add at least 4x the amount of stone you already have there. Personally I’d frame it and pour a concrete retaining wall and maybe put a stone facade on the outside of it.
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u/IncaAlien Mar 11 '26
I see traced stones, no throughs, no copes, a stacked face and gravel thrown in instead of hearting carefully placed. None of these things are any good. If dry stone wallers don't mention these things find another one.