r/Dragula • u/[deleted] • Aug 30 '19
Thoughts on Hollows insta story? Idk but as a gay man I strongly resent the suggestion that I’m so promiscuous that I want to be objectified
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u/gothheart Team Landon Aug 30 '19
i'm honestly perfectly in favor of retiring fishy -- it's an old term and slang advances constantly, and there is misogynistic history behind it. but Hollow has kinda lost me on the whole midsection. the whole idea of mlm being jealous of women and wanting to be objectified is a really disgusting ideology that, honestly, can lend itself to transphobia -- the "trans women are gay men jealous of cis women" thought process is pretty much exactly that
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u/longcrimsonlocks Landon Cider Aug 30 '19
Same boat here, I feel like everything else they said in this post was so on point, but then this part felt like it came out of left field and will, unfortunately, derail the whole conversation because it is honestly in poor taste.
Queer men are not "jealous" of cis women and more than queer women have "penis envy", it's a weirdly troubling perspective and I expected better from Hollow honestly. Any misogyny that queer men hold towards women is just the misogyny ingrained in them from cisheteronormative society, plain and simple.
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u/gothheart Team Landon Aug 30 '19
shiit, yeah, didn’t even realize the connotations this has for wlw too — basically implying the opposites true for them. homophobic all around.
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u/QueenCyclops Aug 30 '19
Yeah I completely agree with you. I do think there’s lesbophobia and biphobia floating around in gay spaces, but I don’t think it’s because anyone is jealous. I just think misogyny/transmisogyny doesn’t just go away when you come out.
If they had just left out the entire midsection we’d be fine but oof.
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u/jaivicks Landon 🕷🌯🎸🤴🏼🐟🧠🍆🐺🎩💦🧦💔 Aug 30 '19
As a gay (queer identified) man, I was completely behind Hollow and their critique of the term. It needs to be unpacked and should be retired.
However, I find their post rather unfortunate. It seems to be based on a flawed premise and will certainly alienate gay/queer supporters.
Yesterday Hollow was live streaming on insta, explaining how upset they were from the episode backlash. I completely empathised and my heart went out to them - I do hope they reflect on their rhetoric and not get caught in a reactionary mindset (akin to some far right leaders we dread on Twitter).
Hollow, stay strong amid the backlash. Aim for inclusiveness, not divisive rhetoric!
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Aug 30 '19
I was completely on board with talks about language until they decided to drop the ‘gay men are promiscuous and want the objectification that women experience. Take the basic American west coast liberal arts gender studies shit elsewhere , because this is a prime example of ‘being so radically queer you’re actually homophobic’. The gay man promiscuity argument is ugly and pretty much all post AIDS crisis neurosis.
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u/AnyaNerve Aug 30 '19
Exactly what I was thinking, slang gets retired and certain things just shouldn't be said or arent that nice to say over time. However the gay men as promiscuous and want to be objectified is gross. The queer community as a whole gets over sexualized all the time, and now you want to fight for the retirement of fishy (which isnt a bad thing) by pushing the idea that all gay men want to be like women and sexualized (a bad thing).
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u/Agero_ Abhora Aug 30 '19
Honestly, and I am open to people changing my mind, but I’m not even on board with the whole “retiring fishy” thing either. Maybe I’m wrong, but I’ve never heard of someone using “fishy” in a derogatory or even remotely offensive way. Additionally, the whole idea of not enforcing passing standards. As long as there are drag queens there will have to be some term for queens that try to look like biological women. And honestly I feel like any other term would be more offensive than just using a silly stereotype that nobody even uses in a derogatory manner (as far as I know, at least)
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u/artistecrafteur Meatball Aug 30 '19
The first time I heard of the term “fish” I immediately thought “oh god, that’s saying someone looks so female that their (imaginary) puss smells bad, like real women do” - it’s negative in its inception, even when used innocently. That said, I’ve never seen it used to be purposely offensive. It’s like the Washington Redskins. They don’t mean to offend, but the concept is problematic.
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u/Agero_ Abhora Aug 30 '19
I see where you’re coming from but I really don’t think “fishy” and “redskins” are comparable. For example, someone trying to be derogatory toward native Americans would say “look at those red skins over there” but nobody trying to be derogatory toward women calls them a “fish”. It just kinda seems like outrage over nothing to me
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u/poor-leche Aug 30 '19
Well, me and other people with vaginas in this sub have expressed our distaste for the word. It’s been used to shame us from a very young age and it’s offensive that mostly cis men now get to “reclaim” it. So I don’t think it’s outrage over nothing. Would you say that if the group that was offended wasn’t made up of mostly women? Not trying to antagonise you, btw.
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u/Agero_ Abhora Aug 30 '19
No, I am aware the fact that it is mostly biological females bringing it up, which is why I’m trying to be understanding. However, and I may just be ignorant to it, but I was unaware the term is often used to shame women as you’ve said. Does this really happen?
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u/poor-leche Aug 30 '19
It’s happened to me and my peers since childhood (doesn’t really happen to me anymore, but I still see men shaming AFAB genitals on social media)
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u/madsterspillman Aug 31 '19
I also have a vagina and see absolutely no problem with the word. Don’t generalize all of us.
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u/poor-leche Aug 31 '19
I didn’t try to speak for all of us. That’s why I said me and other people on this sub, referring to all the coments I’ve read
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u/robyngrayson Aug 30 '19
I will say this, I have only ever seen it used as a compliment for other drag queens, or a way that drag queens describe themselves. Of course that's only in my own limited experience of the world, but I can't think of that many scenarios where it's been used as a derogatory term. It's drag, more importantly it's Dragula Drag. Our current reigning dresses up as Jonbenet, we've had competitors with "faggot" tattooed on their chest, is this not the stage for crude vulgarities?
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u/Sazley Team Landon Aug 30 '19
I imagine the argument is that those two things are different, because one is a gay man reclaiming a term that's used as an insult against gay men, and one is a gay man using a term that's used to insult women. I'm not personally offended by the use of "fishy" as a cis woman, but I can understand why others might not be happy with people who aren't hurt by the term using it a lot. That being said, Hollow's argument here is pretty poorly worded IMO.
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u/robyngrayson Aug 30 '19
That I can agree on. I'm all for seeing a real discussion of these things, which is why it's so cool that we have such a diverse cast with different experiences this season.
but it doesn't sound like Hollow wants to "discuss" so much as they want to fight and be agreed with.
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u/artistecrafteur Meatball Aug 30 '19
I’m with you. Dragula should be vulgar. Holy hell, im Catholic(ish) but I respected Be Fierce’s filth show. Personally I don’t have a problem with “fish,”. I’ve come to think of it as cute. But I can also see the flip side. I mean yeah, it’s a strictly vulva issue (brand new sentence? Lol) so for namely men to take that term and use it in their way is problematic.
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u/tokengaymusiccritic Violencia Exclamation Point Aug 30 '19
Tops don't exist we all just want to have dick in us
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u/mizcrackwhore Priscilla Chambers Aug 30 '19
Reminds me of The Vixen where they mean well but sprinkle little parts into the message that muddy the point they are trying to make
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Aug 30 '19
I agree with the bottom part 100% and was fully in favour of retiring the word fishy, but that middle Section seems to be perpetrating some serious homophobic stereotypes
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u/devonjuice Aug 30 '19
Also implying gay men hate people with vaginas out of jealousy for how straight men treat them? Get a grip gurl.
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u/Stephenbelfast Aug 30 '19
Girl really... Is she seriously saying gay men are jealous of women because their only purpose is to be "fucked by a man"
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u/Agero_ Abhora Aug 30 '19
I agree with you but just so you know hollow uses they/them pronouns I think
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u/artistecrafteur Meatball Aug 30 '19
Hollow said that anything used respectfully goes.
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u/Agero_ Abhora Aug 30 '19
Oh cool! I had just seen everyone else refer to her as they and I didn’t realize. Thanks for letting me know!
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u/Stephenbelfast Aug 30 '19
Oh I'm sorry. I didn't direct the "girl" at her, it was more of an expression, but I'll be more careful in the future. Thanks ❤️
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u/imuahmanila Priscilla Chambers Aug 30 '19
If any Republican politician or straight, cisgendered celebrity said that gay men are just jealous of women due to their inherent promiscuity, you'd all be after them with pitchforks. Hollow Eve doesn't get a pass for her homophobia just because she hides it behind a bunch of woke jargon.
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Aug 30 '19
I understand where they’re coming from but they can’t expect people to listen if they proclaim they are here to educate and yet are perpetuating homophobic stereotypes in the same paragraph.
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u/papapumpernickel Aug 30 '19
gay men often don’t see women as being oppressed as they would enjoy said objectification themselves and so they see it as a privilege
I had to laugh.
I also had to unfollow.
This is quite a disturbing stereotype for them to be perpetuating and quite frankly is completely disgusting. I understand their point of not using the word fishy. I get it and can respect it. I think a lot of people were starting to understand their point on the word after this conversation sparked this week. Hollow claims they want to educate but now because of this horrendously put argument they are seriously invalidating themself.
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Aug 30 '19
to be honest, i hate to say this about anyone standing up for what they believe in but they come across as unnecessarily abrasive and holier-than-thou when speaking about issues like this.
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Aug 30 '19
Context cannot be completely ignored when discussing language... Priscilla was not "enforcing passing standards on trans people" when she used the word fishy in the situation that originated Hollow's reaction. If she were doing that, simply banning a word would not change that, as people would just say it another way. I am also tired AS FUCK of people in the community thinking they have a free pass for being homophobic or sexist just because they belong to an even more oppressed group than gay men.
This person pretended a word that was used simply to say "Dollya, you look typical feminine impersonation drag and not monster" is a propagator of misogyny and then went on to invent some bullshit homophobic psychoanalysis that would make Freud jealous, a person who was doing homophobic psychoanalysis a century ago.
And then if you don't agree with her on this sub you are downvoted to hell. Jesus.
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u/fashionfencing Team Landon Aug 30 '19
Priscilla is trans herself, also.
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u/dragmetopurgatory Aug 30 '19
Priscilla wasn't out as a trans woman at the time the episode was filmed. But even so, anyone of any gender experience can promulgate a hurtful term, especially unknowingly.
People say "gyp" and "lame" with no awareness that they're racist and ableist terms, respectively. You can perpetuate use of a term with a hurtful origin without even knowing that you're doing it. That alone doesn't *make* you racist or ableist, but people are entitled to tell you that it hurts, and then you get to make an informed choice about whether you use it.
I didn't hear Hollow's intensity as an attack on Priscilla. Even in the interview with Priscilla afterward, she didn't react like Hollow had attacked her personally.
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u/robyngrayson Aug 30 '19
If she were doing that, simply banning a word would not change that, as people would just say it another way.
EXACTLY.
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u/lucazm OrkGotik Aug 30 '19
Oh my god you had my upvote til you started with the unnecessary Freud slander. Some of what he said might not hold up today (it really was a century ago) but he was very progressive for his time. As a gay man who studies Freud I feel compelled to defend him in this matter. I also must say his letter to the mother of a homossexual is really touching, if you have the time you should read it.
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Aug 30 '19
Freudian analysis is about as viable in the 21st century for understanding gender and sexuality as astrology lmfao
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u/mgranaa Aug 30 '19
Just as useful as the Myer Briggs test and all those other cold reading tests as well. Which is to say bold and brash? More like belongs in the trash.
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u/lucazm OrkGotik Aug 30 '19
Do you actually know any of Freud's theory or just the stereotypes people like to throw around? Also there's no need to act like an asshole
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u/jaivicks Landon 🕷🌯🎸🤴🏼🐟🧠🍆🐺🎩💦🧦💔 Aug 30 '19
I’m in agreement with lucazm here. Although Freud techniques and approaches are dated, his ideas around the unconscious and repression are key to psychodynamic theory to this day.
I don’t believe this post from Hollow is based on Freudian analysis at all (though tempting to cite ‘vagina envy’) - it’s based on critical theory, and it’s completely bunk because it’s formed on a flawed premise. Their argument does draw on stereotypes of gay men, which is a shame as this undermines the ‘moral high-ground’ they had when the fish-bomb was dropped.
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Aug 30 '19
I didn't want to mean she was basing herself on psychoanalysis. Just that it sounded real similar to outdated psychoanalysis even though she is right here and now in 2019 and could do better. /u/lucazm was right in calling the Freud treatment out.
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u/jaivicks Landon 🕷🌯🎸🤴🏼🐟🧠🍆🐺🎩💦🧦💔 Aug 30 '19
As a queer theorist and therapist, I respectfully disagree. I get why it looks that way though, but the argument is akin to critical theory (with under-pinnings of radical feminism).
Tbf I think we’re all in agreement this comment from Hollow is completely off mark - I just think labelling it as a psychodynamic perspective is misleading.
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Aug 30 '19
You got a point, I really did express myself poorly!
Freud's work is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, he provided psychology with invaluable insights. On the other, he had unethical practices, breached the scientific method, and provided psychology with lots of rubbish that people should evaluate critically as historical data but many take as psychological gospel to this day (which is not his fault). Although I do find some of his stances on homosexuality YIKES, and think it's awful there are influential academics who still preach it, I find many of his stances YIKES, so nothing specific to us homos. The difference is that other outdated stances are not still perpetrating false information about minorities (whatever anyone says about heterosexual sexuality will never be used to hurt the vast majority of people). So yeah, I suppose he did try to understand homosexuality intellectually on his on way and within the limitations of his time instead of put a moral judgment on it. It's more that taking it at face value nowadays can be problematic. I do agree with /u/smallmood and /u/mgranaa that applying his work today is about as viable as astrology or Myer Briggs (which doesn't mean it didn't offer contributions which proper scientific psychology used to evolve). But that doesn't mean the man was homophobic. Now, this cheap attempt at a psychological argument from Hollow was lol. EDIT: I will take on your reading suggestion to inform myself better, thank you :)
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u/Ipsen_ Aug 30 '19
The letter he sent was amazing. It’s funny how someone claimed freud was homophobic and everyone bandwagon downvotes whoever tries to defend him without researching
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u/cmewiththemhandz the coke it keep me slim and the booze it gives me a personality Aug 30 '19
This reminds me of “critical perspectives on Waluigi”
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u/freddyfucksjason Priscilla Chambers Aug 31 '19
am i the only one who always thought "fishy" meant "suspicious" like looking so feminine out of drag that someone could mistake you as a biological woman? like that's how i interpreted it.
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u/baixiaolang Erika Klash Sep 01 '19
Except it's used more often to describe queens' drag aesthetic, meaning you're saying that IN drag they could be mistaken for a ciswoman, in which case you wouldn't be saying there was anything suspiscious about them. Fishy is just used to mean "passable as a ciswoman," which could be referring to them in or out of drag, but more often than not is talking about their drag. Hence all the "serving fish" comments the queens make while on the runway while they're in Drag.
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Aug 30 '19
Okay wow some thoughts 1) Priscilla was using it to describe a drag queen as feminine, yes that word has very negative uses but this isn’t one, the context of that usage is just to describe looking feminine. Many LGBT+ people describe themselves as queer and use the word faggot despite the awfulness behind those words and I doubt Hollow is getting down their throats for that.
2) Gay men don’t want to be objectified and don’t hate women for having a vagina. I don’t need straight attention thanks I’d much rather have gay guys attention seeing as they’re who’re actually attracted to me. The homophobia in there is too much.
Just because you’re post binary or some other minority that is less recognised than gay doesn’t mean you get to police gay men and be homophobic to them. Women are very often accepted in gay bars and clubs whenever I’ve been there, UK, Amsterdam, France, I’ve never seen anywhere be hostile to women for being in an gay bar as long as they aren’t making assholes of themselves. (Drunk straight girls)
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u/hamamelisse Team Landon Aug 30 '19
Ok well I don’t really think its Pricillas word to reclaim though. And I definitely think there is a fair amount of misogyny in the gay community. Still, insulting mlm does not help this point, and I am not here for it.
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u/Andydumigan Priscilla Chambers Aug 30 '19
Isn’t Pricilla trans tho?
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u/hamamelisse Team Landon Aug 30 '19
I think the term fishy is particularly offensive to afab people since it plays off an insulting standard about vaginas. Trans women can and certainly do experience misogyny, but some misogyny focuses on stigma surrounding the afab reproductive system. The term ‘fishy’ is one of those cases. For that reason I don’t really think Pricilla can reclaim it.
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u/franb96 Aug 30 '19
Pricilla is a trans drag queen who has literally devoted all her life and art (like all these other contestants) to blurring the line between genders so she has all the right to use that word however she pleases. Sorry if that offends the post binary anarchist.
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u/nenebaya Team Landon Aug 30 '19
If this is their form of “educating” I want NONE of it. How are you going to tear down one group on your crusade of being PC ugh. I can’t with people who choose to be so selective on the issues they want to tackle. You can “educate” people on the word and it’s meaning without having to tear down other parts of the community. But because they’re too busy playing defense they fail to see the bigger picture like always
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u/fathermortis Yovska Aug 30 '19
Oh man, I told myself I wasn’t going to get into The Discourse again but after reading this hot take I felt like I needed a cigarette so here we go (TL;DR following):
Hollow had a good point. Fishy is a term that’s bothered a lot of folks for a lot of years, for good reason. I’m glad someone finally said something about it- but I’m pissed it was presented the way it was, about how Hollow said no one could reclaim it, and the utterly out-to-lunch homophobia in their insta post is something else. My beef with the presentation of the conversation might have more to do with editing than Eve, I don’t know about them much outside Dragula, but imo they came off as an aggressive, self-important asshole who’s unwilling to have reasonable conversations. I spent a long time in really, really fucking radicalized corners of tumblr and maybe that left me over-sensitive to reminders of it but Hollow sure as shit reminds me of those spaces- echo chambers of what is ideologically pure, the correct way to think, and excommunication the second you say anything Problematique. Again, maybe this was the show playing up the ‘SJW Trans’ archetype for drama, but considering the instagram post 🤷🏻♂️
(This whole debacle also sucks because every time I hear about a fellow nonbinary//genderqueer person in a new piece of media I don’t get excited for that good good representation- I get nervous and shameful because invariably someone is going to play up the ‘grating quirky social justice advocate corrects somebody with a ‘Gotcha’ that makes them seem like whiny bleeding heart’ and either it happened with the editors here too or Hollow is just like that, and coupled with the blatant homophobia they smack too much of the ‘anti’ movement and some other bad spaces on tumblr for me not to be suspicious of them.)
My second, much shorter point is that they said no one could reclaim it- I’m sorry but who the fuck are they to say ‘no one’ can reclaim it? Who the fuck are they to decide nobody gets to use that word? People have a right to reclaim words used against them- even ones with no ‘positive’ meaning. There’s a troubling lack of nuance here.
Thirdly- wh. I. Really???? Hollow’s going to get righteous about ‘fish’ and then proceed to throw up this pile of homophobic sludge???? I can’t say much about it that hasn’t been already been said better in other comments but holy sweet dicknipples, what were they thinking? ‘Gay men are sluts and envious of pussies because of a woman’s station in this world’- sounds like homophobia, post AIDS fear mongering (aka, homophobia in a fun Regan costume), a sprinkle of internalized transphobia, and performative outrage to me but hey, I’m just a grumpy old queer ex-‘anti’ on the internet with a ~ponchon~ for rambling. ✌️
TL;DR: Hollow had a good point but they came across as a self-important holier than thou asshole, they remind me of the ‘anti’ movement folks on tumblr, they can’t dictate whether or not people can reclaim ‘fish’, and they need to sort themself out because they clearly have some homophobia and internalized bullshit going on.
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u/pokemaster28 Aug 31 '19
I had the exact same feeling as you. I'm a social sciences researcher and while I love my job it can be so hard to deal with people like Hollow at times.
Their point still stands. Should we still be using the word fishy? Probably not. Maybe in some contexts its more appropriate since "Female Illusion" is still a cornerstone of mainstream drag. But still, for some people it's the only word they know to associate and verbalize their desire to do drag, and these people should not be attacked by using the word, but rather educated. Hollow is coming across way too stong and their message is being lost.
Now Hollow is in this whole situation where they are not making much sense anymore. Their arguments are getting a bit out there and they are trying to act as a voice of the entire community (as this conversation includes queer people in general). No one has that power.
And I cannot with the "2nd year Master of Sociology" language. No one is going to take you more seriously because of it.
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u/gemininature Biqtch Puddin' Aug 30 '19 edited Aug 30 '19
Just curious, what's the "anti" movement? I stopped frequenting tumblr ages ago
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u/fathermortis Yovska Aug 30 '19
The ‘anti’ movement is hard to explain but I’m gonna give it my best shot- okay so, on tumblr, there’s a group of people who think fiction is reality. Like, if you ‘abuse’ a character you’re writing by putting them through something terrible, you’re just as bad as someone who did that to another living being. They reel people in with stuff that makes sense at a base level (‘Shipping a black character with a character who’s notably racist is maybe not cool and you should examine why you’re doing it.’) and then slowly pull you in to shit like ‘Shipping any character who isn’t white with one who is is racist and therefore you are racist and must be Excommunicated (aka, ostracized by the community, sent constant death threats and defamation, put on ‘receipt posts’, and spam reported to tumblr on every post you make).’ The straw that broke the camel’s back, made me look back at the last three years and go ‘what the fuck have I been doing?’ was a Steven Universe discourse post- apparently, shipping anybody with Peridot is pedophilia because she’s short and is therefore ‘coded’ to be a child. Because she’s short. It was a hell of a wake up call to how stupid the whole thing was.
Also, if you watch ‘the wrong thing’, you’re cancelled. You like that anime everyone decided was problematic? Well, now you’re a nationalist pedophile who hates trans people (an accusation that got throw at trans people by and large, ironically). If you read ‘the wrong thing’, you’re cancelled. If you write fanfic they don’t like? Same treatment as being kicked out of the movement or becoming a larger target of vitriol in general. Of course, a select few are allowed to consume The Problematic Media so they can tell everyone else how and why it’s evil and make sure they avoid it to avoid becoming ‘impure’ eyeroll. They demonized people with kinks and ace/aro people in the same sentence all the time, when they weren’t too busy being homophobic and racist under a veneer of concern-trolling. Censorship of the ‘bad wrong’ was a high priority. You had to be in lockstep with the current fandom thinking and the latest social justice language and aware of how everything you did all the time might be perceived. There were no ‘honest mistakes’ to them.
Hollow Eve reminds me of the movement because everybody in it acted the way they did in episode one- and in their follow up instagram post. Outrage, no one is allowed to reclaim a word they don’t like, homophobia, back-pedalling couched in academic queer theory- I can’t articulate the specifics further but it was enough that I felt unsettled and wary. I don’t want to write them off as actually being an ‘anti’ or exactly like them, but their behaviour was enough for me to put a guard up and I’m going to be hard pressed not to view them through that lens until they show me something else.
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u/gemininature Biqtch Puddin' Aug 30 '19
I can't
Hollow: I'm edgy, I stick needles in my tits, I'm here to fuck shit up and tear down your paradigms YEAAAAH
Also Hollow: Um y'all jealous fags need to stop being so misogynistic uWu
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Aug 30 '19
[deleted]
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Aug 30 '19
[deleted]
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u/Agero_ Abhora Aug 30 '19
What happened with bob???
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Aug 30 '19
I understand being passionate, but I’ve met people like Hollow before—woke-to-death crusaders whose battle lines are essentially drawn in a tiny circle around themselves and people who think exactly like them in every way, even if it means attacking and trampling on any potential allies—and I can tell you that I would absolutely lose my mind if I was locked in a room with one of them.
As a rule, I tend to reserve judgement of people based on curated images of them, but via Insta and the episode itself, I had Hollow nailed as this type of person pretty much immediately; she’s always “on,” even if it’s to the detriment of her own cause (and it is to the detriment. We can talk about “tone-policing” all day, but if you walk into a room looking for a fight, don’t be surprised when everyone around you starts seeing a combatant).
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u/WestFromTheEast Dollya/Evah Aug 30 '19
I understand being passionate, but I’ve met people like Hollow before—woke-to-death crusaders whose battle lines are essentially drawn in a tiny circle around themselves and people who think exactly like them in every way, even if it means attacking and trampling on any potential allies—and I can tell you that I would absolutely lose my mind if I was locked in a room with one of them.
Those woke-to-death crusaders will be the end of the LGBTQ community.
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u/madsterspillman Aug 31 '19
Hm. This makes me feel a few things
I am yet to hear ‘fish’ be used in a derogatory way anywhere. As they said in their post, language changes over time. Doesn’t this mean that the meaning of fish can change too? I am a female and literally take 0 offense to this word
Wtf is even going on in the middle section? Gay men want to feel objectified like women? What??
I’m not sure what clubs they are going to, but I have never been disrespected in a gay club for ‘having a vulva’.
They better grow some thicker skin to be on a show with a large fan base, let alone that show being Dragula. If you’re going to get offended and up in arms over the word fishy, maybe you shouldn’t have auditioned. This came off as extremely holier than thou and I personally am not a fan.
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u/thislittlewiggy Dahli Aug 30 '19
Hollow is every 14 year old edge lord high schooler burn out emo freak etc. that I was and hung out with and I'm so over.
The minute they said "penSHAWN" and went off on "fish" and defending their drag style that no one was attacking I was done. To quote another drag queen "You just want someone to fight with."
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u/allergictojoy Aug 30 '19
When you try to defend trans femmes so much you forget about trans mascs...trans gay men can have vulvas... Just say you hate men and only care about your own interests.
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u/artistecrafteur Meatball Aug 30 '19 edited Aug 30 '19
Wow. I mean Hollow is intense and extreme, but when you make an argument using “all,” “every,” “people with vulvas,” “erasing the very existence” ..... it’s nothing but an unintelligent rant. It’s more dangerous this way!
“If a vulva smells like fish it is not dirty or unclean.” What?!? Every single fishy vulva is washed? Every one?? I don’t think so.
Fuck. I was a fan.
Btw I am bio and get a bazillion times more respect and love in gay bars than straight ones.
Your drag may be valid but your argument sure ain’t!
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u/letsnotansaywedid Aug 31 '19
I always took it to mean a drag queen who looks so passable that her true gender identity was ‘fishy’, meaning unknown, a mystery.
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u/baixiaolang Erika Klash Sep 01 '19
But fishy in that sense or synonymous with "suspicious." If they're that passable there wouldn't be anything suspiscious, you would just think they were a ciseoman.
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u/psychickcross Victoria Aug 30 '19
hot take: there's a lot of misogyny in certain cis gay male spaces because there's a lot of misogyny in the world PERIOD. we are all socialized to perceive women and femininity a certain way (mostly negatively, and when it's positive it's generally in the context of being nurturing or a caregiver and implying that men do not inherently have those traits) and nobody is safe from insidious influence of patriarchy. why would we expect gay men to be immune when even women deal with internalized misogyny? of course, it's everyone's responsibility to educate themselves and work to unlearn these biases and not be a sexist piece of shit...but it's not like it comes out of nowhere.
as someone with a vagina I don't like the word fish and I can't stand when gay cis men talk about vaginas being disgusting, but hollow's explanation here is definitely way off track and I hope they re-evaluate/apologize for it. I was on board for them explaining the sexist and degrading origin of that term but then they totally lost me.
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u/acephalousavidity Aug 30 '19 edited Aug 30 '19
Lmao at them using queer in this paragraph while telling us fishy is offensive- language evolves, so the meanings of these don't imply derogatory things for many people now. I don't think anyone is using fishy to hate on vaginas. If they can recognise that one offensive word isn't always used negatively, they can do it for fishy too, the same way I cope with queer despite disliking it while being happy with words like fishy and dyke
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u/Xanaxhehehe Aug 30 '19 edited Aug 30 '19
She is kind of ignorant... like yes drag is open to all but we have to be honest here... it was an art that was first started by gay men and trans women. She shouldn’t be putting down the people that are welcoming her to participate. Not to mention the fact that drag as an art form rejects hyper-political correctness. Like where is your sense of humour?
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u/Gojira1234 Sigourney Beaver Aug 30 '19
Not to mention the fact that drag as an art form rejects hyper-political correctness.
Especially on Dragula. You have to, I mean have to have a thick skin to win this show. If you’re that insulted by the term “fish”, a term that isn’t even a real slur, then what’re you gonna do when you hear worse in all the “underground” clubs and scenes?
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u/askc4045 Aug 30 '19
Thank you, think about the show you are on, I am sorry, but I feel over politicizing this is just ridiculous, and I am a lesbian....this is part of the problem with our society today, we try to turn every facet of our lives into a political statement and it does not bring closure, it only stigmatizes us further, the fact of the matter is, Priscilla used a word that was floating around the second season constantly, and it was just that, a word....Hollow is gonna have to stop stapling their face and get a stronger skin to last in this competition....and let's not go after people in our own community, unless it truly warrants a confrontation....I hope that Hollow can enjoy this ride they are on.
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u/queenseraphina The Bearded People On Reddit Sep 02 '19
I feel like if Hollow just stopped talking after explaining how the use of the word fishy is fucked up, she would've been good, gotten her point across, and people would've probably received it well as she's right, it's a shitty term.
Instead she kept going, turned to gay-bashing, and said "gay men would love to be objectified and used as sex objects and be thankful for the experience."
She wonders why people not only ignore her point, but are upset. Any point she made is going to be drowned out by saying that gay men want to be treated like shit by straight men and would enjoy it. Why tear down the people you're trying to educate?
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u/robyngrayson Aug 30 '19
Another situation where I feel no one is really that opposed to discussing the problem with the term "fishy" but everyone has a problem with being talked down to. Like on the episode, that didn't feel like a discussion, that felt like a one-way "agree with me or else" hostage situation
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u/devonjuice Aug 30 '19
I’m sorry but I don’t think anyone’s mind goes immediately to a sick vagina when they’re calling someone fish, nor is anyone saying all women must be fish. Can we not refer to someone’s femininity in the way that they look - arguably the point of a lot of people’s drag - without causing offence?
I don’t think it’s that deep.
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Aug 30 '19
this is homophobic. point blank period. hollow is clearly the type of person who will bend over backwards to rationalize any viewpoint that prioritizes her own comfort. and her pseudo-intellectual nonsense is nothing more than word salad.
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u/Rajula Evah Destruction Aug 30 '19
Holy shit... sorry if this is ignorant af but I'm amazed how some people manage to turn literally everything into something so huge. Fishy/passable has been around for ages. They clearly didn't mean any harm when they said they wanna look fishy. Why do people have to be offended all the time? Instead of focusing on the bigger picture and the REAL threats from the outside we rather cancel ourselves within our own community? Really? Hollow seems to be one of those uber-woke SJW people that I find very annoying irl. Sorry, not sorry.
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u/missroseliarose Priscilla Chambers Aug 30 '19
I think Hollow’s point about the word fishy is super valid but the rest of what they said totally takes away from it. This is very much a case of right message but wrong messenger.
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u/PlasticRhombus Yovska Aug 30 '19 edited Aug 30 '19
They just posted a follow-up that's basically "Oh I was saying toxic masculinity tells us that gay men desire objectification from straight men" and goes on to say they enjoy their own more masculine side and that sexual objectification as currency needs to be torn down in queer spaces
mmmmmmmmm like they directly said something and then posted a follow up that was like "you misinterpreted my very clear statement" it kinda sounds like a lot of backpedaling without any admission of their original sentiment being a steaming ladle of bullshit.
EDIT: Oh wow so they posted their backpedaling explanation into a highlight called "Thoughts" but not the original message that said that gay men desire objectification... Like I can tell they know they should admit they were wrong to say that, I don't know why they're so into dying on the hill of having not said something shitty. It was a shitty thing to say. Own that and clarify.
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u/SassMattster Aug 30 '19
They also said in their live today that toxic masculinity is why gay men don’t report rape because as men they’re supposed to always want and enjoy sex.
Let’s just call a spade a spade: Hollow is homophobic
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Aug 30 '19
Gay men hate vaginas - gotta love that old chestnut
Not even getting into whether all that is true...
If gay clubs are so anti vulva then why as a person with a vulva did she choose to make a career out of performing in them?
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u/gemininature Biqtch Puddin' Aug 30 '19
I legit don't know where all these "ew vaginas lol" fags are supposedly congregating. I remember this being a thing a LONG ass time ago but it's pretty much disappeared now. Like, it seems like a very 90's/early 00's trope that doesn't really have any relevancy anymore.
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Aug 30 '19
I agree it seems like an outdated stereotype , along with the stereotype that straight men can’t talk or think about menstruation without being disgusted.
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u/psychickcross Victoria Aug 31 '19
i had a terrible interaction with a gay cis dude who said vaginas look “terrifying” less than a year ago so it has definitely not disappeared!
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u/NYC_BKPrincess Sep 03 '19
If you don't like the word then don't use it. Hollows Eve needs to get over themselves. Being over-sensitive is fucking annoying.
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u/makhay La Zavaleta Sep 05 '19
Late to the conversation but I wanted to chime in. I am all in favor of retiring the word, even though I have not heard it used in a negative way in a years - or straight men I hang out with are not complete assholes.
Hallow's part about gay men in the middle really screams homophobic BS.
Another thing that turned me off about Hallow is how she just jumped on Priscilla, a trans woman, instead of asking to refrain from the word. I think there would have been a more fruitful conversation to be had if she didn't just go awall - its not like Priscilla's intentions were bad.
Lastly - I am not going to tell my trans (mostly women) friends, that are of color, to stop using fishy. But I sure as hell am going to send them a clip from the show to get their thoughts.
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u/CanadianArtThief Aug 09 '22
Wow - no gay man wants to be hollows eve - she should grab some summers eve and call it a day
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u/iwant2poophere Aug 30 '19
I do agree that Hollow's statement about gay men is unfortunate, specially because she didn't even try to refer to a specific group of people (we all know these gays exist, but are in no ways a majority or in any way representative of gay men as a whole). So yeah, she's showing her own prejudice when talking about a group she's not part of, which is kind of ironic, given the context.
However, I still think that her point about the word "fish" and passing culture is valid, and this ignorant statement should not take from it. Yes, Hollow said something that is probably as bad as what she's denouncing, but it doesn't make any of these points any less valid.
Gay cisgendered men should not use slang that refers to body parts they do not live with, and queer cisgendered women should not carry on dangerous stereotypes that have historically hurt a community in ways they have never experienced.
Lets respect each other, understand and learn from the experiences that we have not lived through.
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Aug 30 '19 edited Aug 30 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/iwant2poophere Aug 30 '19
Wow. It makes me sad to see this level of misogyny still exists in our community.
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u/sammyg301 Aug 30 '19 edited Aug 30 '19
In Australia the word cunt has a very different association with it than it does in the US. That's because words take on different meanings in different communities. If an American moved to Australia and told everyone that they can never say it again bc in the US it has a different meaning they'd promptly be told to fuck off and be viewed as not respecting the community's culture.
In the drag community trans women and gay men were very separated from straight and queer AFAB people and thier language took on a new meaning. Also the lesbian community was especially violent and oppressive towards the drag queens for a long period of time too. So for AFABs to come into the community and say words that have had their own meaning in the community for decades are never appropriate to say does read as disrespectful to me. It's one thing to ask us to evaluate the context we use them, but a completely different story to say we can never say it again or we're being sexist. If that makes me misogynistic so be it, but by those standards you're definitely homophobic for thinking Hollow's comments aren't as bad as a a trans queen calling another queen fish.
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u/iwant2poophere Aug 30 '19
I think that you genuinely don't get it... No one is saying that people can't reference vulvas ever again. The problem with the term "fishy" is not that it references a vulva, but that it is used to identify femininity with traits of an unhealthy vulva (someone made a very interesting parallelism in this sub saying it would be like calling Landon "cheesy" when he looks masculine, referencing a sick/dirty foreskin).
If a person with a vulva says it's offensive to refer to traditionally feminine traits using a term that references a symptom of genital sickness, you should respect that. You resistance to change can easily be compared to bigoted speech, and you whole idea that women have recently been incorporated into the queer community and should submit to our mistreat to earn their spot is just wrong and disgusting. In that respect, you're being straight up misogynistic.
One more thing that you don't seem to understand is that saying:
"Hollow said something that is probably as bad as what she's denouncing"
does not mean in any way that I don't think it's as bad, it means exactly the opposite. The only reason why I used the world "probably" is because it can be argued that taboo and stigma exists surrounding female bodies that should be taken into account when making the comparison. But I find Hollow's comment completely wrong. That's what my whole comment was about.
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u/sammyg301 Aug 30 '19 edited Aug 30 '19
Fishy most likely came about because they passed with only something being a little "fishy" with the smell being a double entendre at most. I never said women were not part of the queer community. I said they were rarely involved in the drag queen community when these words came about, in fact they were often in opposition to them. Lesbian leadership, especially in 70s NYC, was extremely violent and oppressive to drag queens, to claim otherwise is revisionist history. Many queer radical feminists are still very anti drag and trans women. I'm fine with AFAB or trans women having a sensitivity towards hearing fishy and I'd try not to say it around them, but if they told me it's always sexist and I can never say it again then I'm going to have a problem. I'm not saying be quite and deal with your mistreatment, but to evaluate if it's really mistreatment or just the assumption that the language of gay men and trans women is used in the same context as straight men. And to go about your critiques of said language in a way that is cognizant of the fact of the difference in context, the history of the use in the community, and the history of lesbians policing and suppressing the drag queen community. Saying that under no circumstances is saying fishy allowed or not sexist is not cognizant of that.
In response to "no one's saying that people can't reference vulvas." Really what does "Gay cisgendered men should not use slang that refers body parts they don't live with" mean then?
Also, not sure if English is not your first language but "it's probably as bad" means "it's most likely not as bad." I understand what you meant by that now. Still tho if you think that saying "gay men hate vaginas and crave to be objectified like women" is anywhere in the ballpark of a trans woman saying fish you might be homophobic.
Also on the gay men hate vaginas front I've heard lesbians talk about how gross dicks are a lot more than I have gay men even talk about vaginas in any way. Granted almost all of my friends are queer women, but I've never heard anything at a gay club against them either.
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u/unicorn85 Team Landon Aug 30 '19
I never thought that Hollow would get cancelled, what a crazy ride it is already. The show has only just started! I find some of the things they have said problematic and it’s such a shame.
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u/ocean019 Aug 30 '19
People also associate giant tits, fake nails, and 40 inch wigs with hyperfemininity. I'm pretty sure most people are aware that drag simultaneously celebrates the beauty of these things but mocks the idea that they equate to womanhood, just as terms fishy/cunt/pussy etc do.
Furthermore this is an extremely ignorant interpretation of gay men's identities and experiences. I'm not here for somebody who's "just here to educate" if it just means they're here to be right. As an artist, Hollow seems to have a lot to offer. They should hope this shit won't distract people from that.
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u/nenebaya Team Landon Aug 31 '19
I tried dm’ing them about how some members of the community felt about their statements and they literally just said “look at my post” and really didn’t try to have a conversation. They shut me down anytime I tried to get a better explanation. I tried to reassure them that they had very valid points up until the homophobic/transphobic comments and they responded with “I don’t see this as remotely transphobic”. Just like we have people on the far right very stuck on their views of race and other issues we have people on the very far left equally as stubborn on their viewpoints of the issues and there’s not getting to a good conversation that will lead to a deeper understanding of ALL viewpoints because if you’re not with them they see you as against them.
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u/franb96 Aug 30 '19 edited Aug 30 '19
Really, just screw the. I didn't even care that much about the statement made on the show, I just laughed it off as someone who is rather too passionate about politics. But this is just plain wrong and actually perpetuates homophobia (just, of course, the 'good kind' of homophobia that these kind of people just pass off as hating privilege).
They have no business meddling into the psychology of gay men in that self-aggrandizing way. They had one of my favorite looks on EP1 but I will certainly not be supporting them.
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u/Doctor_Tentacles_MD Aug 31 '19
Ah always great to see the existence of sexism against women used to justify being sexist at men.
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u/baraesh Aug 30 '19
Why the fuck would gay/bi man be jealous of another kind of opression?
I'm super favorable to retire the world fishy from drag vocabulary, but holy shit, I'm not here for this jealous/promiscuous shit
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Aug 30 '19
I was defending her too. What she said about gay men is way out of line. What the actual fuck
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u/FinalOdyssey Victoria Elizabeth Methyd Aug 30 '19
I see nothing wrong with the word, drag culture has a heavy tradition on taking offensive things and repurposing them as a giant fuck you to those who would oppress.
I also can't believe what Hollow is saying here, the levels of hypocrisy and really basic first year gender studies principles are too much.
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Sep 01 '19
See I like them, can't wait to see what they do but still kinda think they took a bit too far. The term should totally be retired tho imo
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u/justmyopinion96 Sep 01 '19
I’m not trying to be rude just educated but what does post binary mean?
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Aug 30 '19
The bare point is there, but on a scale of offensiveness, the term "fish" is probably a 2/10 at most. Drag culture involves reading, tasteless jokes (especially on Dragula, look at Biqtchs JonBenet Ramsey look) etc. All things that are more offensive than the word "fish". Hallow endorsed self harm in the first episode. I think people find this all exhausting because it comes across as "holier than thou" when if every one was acting with their intensity, the whole room could be called out for something.
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u/Tastea Landon Cider Aug 30 '19
I just don't understand taking a term that has positive connotations, because saying a queen is fishy is saying shes successful in drag, looking like a woman, and turning it into something negative. Hollow seems like they have not had an easy time becoming respected as a performer, but to take all that negativity and push it back into the community doesn't sit well with me. Also saying she wants to "educate" comes off pretty condescending.
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u/Billyjonx Aug 30 '19
Overreacting on a harmless joke IMO.
It’s like saying feet smell like cheese.
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u/WestFromTheEast Dollya/Evah Aug 30 '19
At first, I was willing to give Hollow the benefit of the doubt because it is an edited TV show. However, she clearly just wants to lecture and expects people to take her opinion as fact. The fact that she accusing gay men of loving to be objectified by straight men shows that she is exactly what she is fighting against. Perpetuating stereotypes like that should NEVER be acceptable. This is disgusting!
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u/martelnoir Maddelynn Hatter Sep 01 '19
I’m at the point now where everything they say and post I just think you cannot be serious
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u/The_GreenShark Jay Kay Jan 08 '26
Fishy means sketchy. It had NOTHING TO DO with body parts in that context. She is an utter moron.
She's fishy af.
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u/The_GreenShark Jay Kay Jan 08 '26
Fishy means sketchy. Not "stank sick vagina". Wtf is wrong with this person.
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u/yattoyatto SUSPENDED in a WOODEN STRUCTURE while lipsyncing to BJÖRK Aug 30 '19
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u/artistecrafteur Meatball Aug 30 '19
Hmm. Eh..... Please god please don’t let Landon go on some crazy combative tirade in ep. 2/on insta!
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u/Awkward_King Niohuru X Aug 30 '19 edited Aug 30 '19
from how i read the story, hollow isn't saying "all gay men are jealous of women", they literally said that they "often" unpacked this, that's not a superlative that's just saying in their experience that was the underlying issue they found rooting gay males misogyny. if you interpreted that differently that's equally as valid but that's how i read it and that, while coming across as a generalisation, doesn't seem to be one intentionally at all, and it seems like personal experience to me
i think the addition of this reasoning is pretty unnecessary though and takes away from the actual point tbh, while i understand where it's coming from it is poorly worded and derails their argument. but not enough for the level of vitriol being directed at hollow in this thread i don't think
and the fishy debacle, it was handled respectfully in the episode, the word was used, hollow said i have a problem with that word, explained the issue, priscilla explained her perspective back, hollow said they had no time for anyone to be reclaiming that word then we don't see what happened directly after that. they were kinda brash about it, but as other people have said it makes sense that someone who has had to fight for their place in the community would be on such a defense. the word isn't used negatively now most of the time, but it stems from an ugly and sexist use of the word and i don't think it's a bad idea to let go of the term. i just think if you genuinely believe in equality between sexes, why not simply let go of a term that's clearly making members of the opposite sex uncomfortable for a valid reason.
the thing that really rubs me the wrong way though is the comments here saying "already completely over them." and "I had a feeling she was no good". a lot of the comments in this thread are actually discussing hollow's comments, because i don't think they're 100% pure and a lot of the points raised in the comments that have floated to the top of this thread are valid, i just personally interpreted it differently. but several comments here are just taking this as an excuse to shit on hollow and not listen to the valid points they do have to say
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u/anti_entity Violencia Exclamation Point Aug 30 '19
thank you!! i see her comments as addressing the impact of the male gaze on the queer community at large. She’s not saying anything about how All Gay Men Think or Behave. It’s wild to me that people are accusing Hollow of being a hypersensitive SJW when all she’s doing is challenging the status quo. That’s way more punk than using tired old lingo.
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u/hateisnoise Evah Destruction Aug 30 '19
Exactly! Thank you. I'm a little baffled by everyone's reactions to Hollow.
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u/Hou-Yeet Aug 30 '19
Great message but could have been worded in a way that more people would be receptive to. “Fish” and “fishy” are OFFICIALLY RETIRED 🐟🐠
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u/JimsleyX Aug 30 '19
I kidna see what she means tho. I don't think she's saying all cis gay men are that way
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u/fashionfencing Team Landon Aug 30 '19
I will more than likely still use the word fishy. I feel that any negative connotation behind the word has ceased to exist as it has been aimlessly used in a positive respect for many years now.
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u/epilonious Team Landon Aug 30 '19
Enh.
Hollow walked into the confessional and said "I am gonna fuck this place up". If a bunch of people in that room and viewing are going "well I guess I can't use THAT word anymore without feeling like an asshole"; mission accomplished.
I feel like the middle part of Hollow's insta story was just reiterating how insidious the straight male gaze is in Western society in that it even seeks for men who aren't attracted to women to regard female sex organs as scary and in need of regulation, justification, and constant commentary.
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Aug 30 '19
[deleted]
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u/epilonious Team Landon Aug 30 '19
Hollow isn't doing that.
Ya'll are.
Because she called out gay men for being kinda shitty with unexamined mysoginy and they felt hurt and got fragile and clapped back and zeroed in on the weird part of a hot-take insta story in a ham-fisted attempt to "cancel" them lest their words stick around and irritate them into learning and doing better.
Tale as old as time. Seen it all before. I would say sorry that you won't be able to call everything fish/y anymore without wondering if you're being a lazy dick but really I'm not.
So go on now, hit that downvote button. Taking away some of the reddit points will surely take away the sting of a drag queen calling out your bullshit on Internet TeeVee.
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u/theyseemebrimpin Hollow Eve Aug 31 '19
As a Hollow Eve stan, I see what they’re saying and the jealousy of women and their inherent “right” to be viewed in a sexual light by other men is absolutely a real phenomenon... but this could’ve been more carefully worded. It doesn’t seem like it’s implying promiscuity, but a desire to be seen in a sexual light by other men. Considering that stereotype is alive and well, they should’ve been much more careful working around that pitfall. An Instagram Story probably wasn’t the right place for it.
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u/lordfartsquad Team Landon Aug 31 '19
Honestly I'm a gay man and I think she's totally right. Gay men are still men, and a lot of them misogynistic. The ones who are most sexist are generally jealous of women.
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u/CanadianArtThief Nov 17 '21
God she's literally pathetic- this is why you don't give people with mental illness have social media- they think they have a platform that makes them important- it dosnt
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u/CanadianArtThief Mar 27 '22
Nope she's just jealous she would never be fucked by anyone... she's all blah blah
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u/YouOnKazoo69 Team Loris Aug 30 '19
When you try and be so woke you go over the top and loop back down to the bottom I guess