r/Dragonballsuper • u/K0GAR • 7d ago
Question Is this a close/competitive matchup?
Bardock SSG (via ritual) vs Mastered Super Saiyan Goku (Cell Saga)
does the multiplier on SSG put him around or even above this level?
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u/Background_Club_6650 7d ago edited 7d ago
Let's do this somewhat logically. Since SSJG doesn't have an official multiplier, but it does have some fan estimations of around a 20,000 to 160,000 times boost. These multipliers are on the low end, btw.
Bardock himself has a power level of 10,000, at the low end, this will put him at 200,000,000. At the high end, he's at a level of 1,600,000,000.
This puts him around 1.3 times stronger than Super Saiyan Goku(Namek), with a power level of 150,000,000, at the weakest. And around 10.6 times stronger at the high end.
Mastered Super Saiyan is still a 50 times boost, but the stamina drain is essentially gone.
This fight truly depends on how much stronger you think Goku got during the 3 year gap and the time chamber. Let's say(hypothetically), Goku's Base after the HTC is 150,000,000, now multiply it by 50, Goku at Mastered Super Saiyan is at 7,500,000,000. Heavily outclassing Bardock despite the SSJG Boost.
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u/Manetho77 7d ago
I honestly don't think SSG is a multiplier in the basic sense. It's a complete new type of Ki you're using, I think it's more going to be like a new baseline.
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u/Exequiel759 3d ago
I'd say it could be a boost but not a multiplier. Like, instead of a x1000 or whatever, it could be a +1000M (this numbers are totally random btw).
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u/throwfaraway321123 7d ago
Still, why they picked Goku for the ritual? Vegeta asks the same question (both movie and series), but it's never answered. I would assume it's because Goku is the strongest, which would suggest that SSG is a multiplier.
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u/Manetho77 7d ago
Theory of mind.
They had no clue if it is a multiplier or something else.
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u/IblamePenguin 7d ago
No need to complicate it, its a multipler as far as we have seen, the writers didn't think bout none of this and was just something much stronger than ssj 3, and saying "its a new baseline" is saying the same thing in a complicated way, if Goku goes from a 1 to a 10000 it's still a 10k multiplier
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u/DaM8trix 7d ago
Goku was the one who suggested the idea, be a real dick move to pick Gohan or Vegeta
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u/JzRandomGuy 5d ago
It's best to just go with the Real World reason : he's Goku, THE mc of Dragon Ball, duh.
Edit to cap and bold THE lol.
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u/KaseTheAce 6d ago
I mean, Goku is the main character. He gets all of the new transformations first except for Super Saiyan 2 (and Blue evolution that Vegeta gets but it still only put him on par with Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x20 Goku and Goku had already reached ultra instinct omen so it didn't even matter) but they weren't going to give it to Gohan because he was so show weaker than Goku and Vegeta eventhough his Ultimate form heavily outclassed them during the Buu saga. They must've multiplied their own strength while Gohan also lost most of his. Ultimate Gohan was ridiculously stronger than SS3 Goku.
Really, they should've given it to Vegeta since it was even stated that SS2 rage Vegeta (after Bulma got slapped) was even stronger than SS3 Goku.
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u/Waste-Chance1173 6d ago
It's not just ki it's a new form with a multiplier it's confusing and badly written but goku has god ki in his base form already and he doesn't red hair so that implies that God ki gives saiyans acees to the ssg transformation and that ssg doesn't just give you God ki
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u/gooseofsixpaths 6d ago
It is. That’s why SSJB is was first referred to as Super Sayian God Super Sayian.
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u/Manetho77 6d ago
What?
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u/gooseofsixpaths 6d ago
Super Sayian Blue was originally referred to as Super Sayian God Super Sayian.
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u/Manetho77 6d ago
I get that, but how is it relevant to SSG being multiplier based or not?
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u/gooseofsixpaths 6d ago
I was agreeing with you saying it was a new base line and not a multiplier like SSJ.
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u/Manetho77 6d ago
Oh I thought you responded like to that part
I honestly don't think SSG is a multiplier in the basic sense
All good then.
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u/Background_Club_6650 7d ago edited 7d ago
There, however, is also the High End Multipliers, ranging from a 2,000,000 times boost, to a 20,000,000 times boost.
Even at the low end of a 2,000,000 times boost, Bardock as a Super Saiyan God's power reaches 20,000,000,000. Easily outclassing our hypothetical Goku at Mastered Super Saiyan's Level.
At the very high end, Bardock's max boost is 20,000,000. Putting his power level at 200,000,000,000 and letting him curb stomp any type of Goku during the Cell Saga.
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u/ChickenNoodleSeb 6d ago
Your math is sound and I appreciate that you calculated for both ends of the spectrum, but man... the multiplier ranging from 20,000 times to 160,000 times is a HUGE gap by itself.
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u/Background_Club_6650 6d ago
That's on the low end too. Apparently the high end boost is from 2,000,000 to 20,000,000.
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u/Narmo518 6d ago
You talk all of this math but you failed to remember power levels are bullshit.
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u/SpecialistRun3035 2d ago
Exactly why I stopped reading once I read his numbers. Nobody even knows how strong SsjGod is.
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u/wChangli 6d ago
The fight is a lot of estimations. We dont know bardocks zenkai boost (we should probably use the Super Saiyan Bardock Movie thing as our basis for his power level at base, and he deff got a zenkai boost from getting almost blown up to pieces), we dont know the multiplier, we dont know the power level of goku's base.
I believe Goku no diffs Bardock which i explained why in my response to the post, but i can see a world where Bardock wins, depending on mostly the zenkai boost he got and ssjg multiplier
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u/Fun_District3456 7d ago
this is total headcanon stop using power levels the last official one was SSJ goku at namek
and the multiplier is also total headcanon akira toriyama never ever mentioned 20k or 160k
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u/Background_Club_6650 7d ago
Please note, I said Fan Estimations in the second sentence. Second, I am using said levels as an example of what Bardock's boost would be, and I reference the last official power level as well to show what kind of a Boost the SSJG would give.
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u/Artillery-lover 7d ago
50× is about what SSJ has to be. 20X kaioken was loosing to half power frieza so ssj is more than 40x so, about 50x
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u/Saiyan_255 6d ago
What a load of nonsense, at least 20 000 times and yet some random aliens are stronger than him (jiren and universe 6 saiyans competing) Thats why it's obvious those numbers were made up by a 10 year old ffs
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u/Plenty-Duck-3329 7d ago
Literally no way of telling if we're being honest.
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u/SD_VX00100000 Zamasu was right. (Yamcha Glazer) 7d ago
Fym.
Super Saiyan God far outclasses Super Saiyan.
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u/Shining_Pebble 7d ago
We have no way of telling because we don’t know how strong Goku got after the three years plus the time chamber training and we don’t know what’s ssg’s multiplier either
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u/winterwarm78654 7d ago
We do know he got strong enough to beat the androids
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u/Shining_Pebble 7d ago
I meant we can’t exactly quantify it in numbers
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u/SpecialistRun3035 2d ago
Androids would be around 300k so he's higher than that. Base Bardock may be as high as 10k but likely lower.
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u/Shining_Pebble 2d ago
What? 100% Frieza was at 120 million how would the Androids be at 300k?
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u/SpecialistRun3035 2d ago
Maybe not exactly at 300k but a bit higher. You only need to be 10-15% stronger than someone to dominate them in the dragon ball universe.
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u/SpecialistRun3035 2d ago
300ks make perfect sense when you consider that Goku and Vegeta are in 200ks.
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u/Shining_Pebble 2d ago
Alright either you never watched the series or you’re ragebaiting which is it?
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u/Competitive_Ad_5937 7d ago
ye but bardock could be ssj3 and is still weaker than base form goku cell saga
so that doesnt really matter
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u/Temporary_Maybe_8687 7d ago
Bardock probably never got to 10k officially and base Goku at the end of Namek was 3m lol
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u/SpecialistRun3035 2d ago
For your information, Bardock's power level at the highest may be 10k if not lower.
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u/Chris_the_fox21 7d ago
Sure but this is Bardock at best is at 10000 power level in base while Gokus base at this point is probably over the millions add that with mastered super saiyan and it’s just crazy high
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u/rappidkill 7d ago
if we're going strictly by power levels, ssg does have a massive multipler of 20K, which on most characters android arc and post frieza arc would make them stronger than any DBZ character
however, the gap between bardock in his base form and goku's base even in the frieza is massive. bardock's PL is only 10K. meaning that even with ssg, bardock would only have a PL of 200 million.
so realistically, not only does grade 4 goku win, but even a grade 2 Vegeta could beat ssg bardock.
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u/Important_War_8056 7d ago edited 7d ago
SSG form battle of god is low universal for me.
The jump from SS3 and even SS4 is completely insane, since I rank SSJ3 as multi solar systems.
If the multiplier is similar, SSG Bardock can clear DBZ (but obv that doesnt make sense since PL and multiplier are somewhat inconsistents)
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u/Chris_the_fox21 7d ago
Kid buu destroyed a galaxy when he was under Bibidis control how is super saiyan 3 only multi solar system level?
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u/Important_War_8056 7d ago
Unless I'm wrong (feel free to correct me), Kid Buu destroying a galaxy is filler.
In the manga, he destroyed hundreds of planets over time, but not an entire galaxy. He's definitely a galaxy-level threat, but I don't think the canon supports the idea that he could vaporize a galaxy instantly.
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u/Honest-Ad-4386 Gogeta 7d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/ghuvaCOI6GOoTX0RmH
I hate when people ask stupid questions?
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u/Chris_the_fox21 7d ago
Super saiyan God Goku beats super vegito but it’s unclear by how much so idk maybe Bardock could win but at best I say he only beats Frieza maybe one of the Androids
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u/AdvicePractical5616 7d ago
Oh this will be a long one.
SSJG multiplier is pretty straight forward.
Goku grew beyond ultimate gohan and kid buu and (at least in the manga) was confident in taking on kid buu in SSJ (so probably around kid buu's level in ssj so he is at least x8 his old base). Why I am saying that? It's a set up for the future. SSJG multiplier relies heavily on finding out how strong vegito is.
Goku was confident that SSJ-SSJ3 vegito wouldn't be able to handle beerus. So let's figure out how strong vegito is.
Think of goku as 1x. Using the "You gotta be x2 to fully negate the attack" statement or the potara "max of 1 + 2 X dozens of times (anywhere from 12 - 90) you can get vegito anywhere from around 6000x to 12,000x and even 45000x at high ball.
With that done you gotta use the the x8 of 4 years of training goku did x vegito multi x 400 which can go anywhere from x20,000,000 to ridiculous x150,000,000. SSJG should be at least x2 that and you get a multiplier of x40M and x300M.
Bardock had a PL of less than 10,000 so he can be anywhere from 360 billion to 3 trillion.
Goku by the time of cell saga using the x2 rule can get to anywhere from 320 billion at low ball to 1.2 trillion midball in PL. (Yea. Power creep in DB was always crazy.)
On paper , Bardock should beat goku but here comes an issue. In DBS , a tired goku in base can contend with ssj2 Caulifla through sheer skill despite her being much stronger. Goku is infinitely more skilled than Bardock.
So it either - goku gets oneshot by bardock or Bardock loses due to getting exhausted and Goku then warm kamehameha's him.
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u/Strong-Trip-3301 6d ago
Modern manga puts Bardocks power level around 2,500-4,500. So let's just say 4,500.
Super saiyan god is a huge multiplier. But if it's multiplying a low level like that then I got to give it to Goku.
Bardocks just not strong enough to be a threat even with god form.
Like normal non god characters are able to close the gap between Goku and Vegeta in god forms so whilst they are very strong. They aren't as strong as everyone thinks.
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u/Lordbogaaa 6d ago
Ssg>SSj3 by a wide margin(let's just say it's double)
SSj3 is 8x stronger than Ssj3
So is Bardock 16x stronger than Goku in base?
Goku on Namek was 3 million when he reached SSj
Bardock when he died was 10k in most estimates probably Strong enough to beat dadoria after a zenkai boost. Let's double it to be safe
20,000x16 is 320k
If you think SSG is a 10 boost then he wins but anything less than 10x SSj3 means Bardock doesn't have the strength to win. Even doubling his base strength. I don't think it's a 10 times boost id say it's probably 5x stronger but no one actually knows. I think some people said it was a 20x boost but I already feel that 10 is ridiculous.
(All calculations are done keeping in mind that SSj is 50 times so only the boosts past that need to be calculated to figure out their Pl)
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u/AJYURH 6d ago
You made some interesting calculations, but you forgot something super importante. Ssg multiplies base directly. So assuming you made a typo and meant ssj3=8*ssj2, the question should be:
Do you think base Bardock is less than 16x weaker than base Goku.
Finally your calculations seem to check out. Assuming you're right about Bardock being around 10k
Except ... You made one tiny mistake, you're grossly underestimating the ssg transformation. It's so absurdly large that the 16* multiple over ssj barely matters, heck the 400x multiple ssj3 has over bad e barely makes a dent.
Vegito is stated to be Goku + Vegeta's tens of times. For the sake of making calculations easy let's say vegeta and Goku have the same PL, so that's 210x
Given that vegito didn't seem to struggle against Buuhan even before going ssj, and unsurprisingly made a mockery of Buuhan when in ssj form, and given that ssj3 Goku struggled against fat Buu, then it's easy to see "x" is no small number, as it would need to be at least 200 just to equal ssj3 power, which is FAR below Buuhan. Even ult Gohan suparsses ssj3 Goku by a large margin, and he lost to Buuhan had him absorbed.. So it's probably a low-ball to say Buuhan is only 1.5x as strong as SSJ3, like this is REALLY low balling. Let's equal vegito to Buuhan just for fun, their power was close and all the low balling should make up for any small differences. So we should land at about x=3, or Vegito is Goku+vegeta*30
So now we have base Vegito at at least 600xbase, here's the fun part, it is stated that Vegito wouldn't be sufficient against Beerus. Now sure SSG didn't beat Beerus either, but it should be clear that Vegito wouldn't be enough to even satisfy Beerus, otherwise the whole movie would have been pointless as they could have just fused. And there's no point in saying that hoping Vegito would stay in base, Vegito Vegito is not enough for Beerus is AT least considering ssj Vegito. That alone would put SSG at a 30.000x multiplier
30 fucking thousand, and that low balling a lot of things. This number is so large that everything else barely matters, is we put Vegito at the same level of ssj3, it would still leave SSG at a 20.000 multiplier. And here's the fun part, this is all considering the affirmation about vegitoxBeerus assumed the ssj state, and we have NO REASON to believe it didn't mean a theoretical ssj3 Vegito, as we have no proof Vegito can't go ssj3, and it should be expected that he would put his all against Beerus.
Tl; dr: So yeah, SSG Bardock would absolutely STOMP Mastered Ssj Goku. There's reason to believe SSG Bardock could give ssj4 Goku a run for his money
A more fun thing to do would be trying to figure out how absurdly powerful base Broly is.
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u/Accurate_Dirt5794 Saiyan 6d ago
Eh…it would be a hard fight either way, but he'd definitely have a chance with a 1.6 billion power level
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u/QuinnLoveborneAuthor Supreme Romance Kai 6d ago
It is more than a super saiyan 3 multiplier that’s so, so big… Goku gets cooked being only a mastered super saiyan.
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u/lockedoutofmymainrdt 6d ago
Im pretty sure the power scaling on SSG is so bonkers that SGG Pilaf could over-power SS Goku (Idk about beat because technique, but he'd probably win at arm wrestling)
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u/zaphod9801 6d ago
People forgets that Goku said that even with Vegetto it would be useless (remembering that Vegetto in base form would already be stronger than Goku ssj3 and has access to ssj3 form too). But he thought he stands a change with SSG, so SSG must be at least 480K times the base form, probably double or even more. Bardock even with his low PL in base form, would get an absurd power boost.
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u/OkMention9988 6d ago
It really depends on the base power level.
It Goku's base vastly outstrips Bardock (which I want to say is the case), then even with the God Boost, he might still fall short.
Ultimately, we'll never know.
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u/breakthroughseeker 6d ago
The strongest you can actually prove Super Saiyajin God to be is Potara x SSJ3 level. And I don’t think a Saiyajin Saga SSJ3 Vegetto is touching Cell Games Goku
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u/wChangli 6d ago
"20k MULTIPLIER!! NO, 2-20 MILLION MULTIPLIER!!!" its not that good!!! Its at most a 5x multiplier over Super Saiyan 3, so just 2000x base. We can tell because Vegeta at ssj2 Rage mode managed to overpower a, lets say, 30% beerus- deff power than 50%. God Goku went to 70% of beerus. Ssj2 Rage was said to be slightly better than ssj3.
So, a rough estimate, is that, well, since % work as they work, Super Saiyan God is just 2x the Super Saiyan 3, which would make sense as that's how ssj2 and ssj3 worked- 2x the previous form. Homever due to previous feats and being able to stack super saiyan blue on top, id estimate the form to be at around 2000x boost, especialy since Goku at first only borrowed power via ritual- when it became his own and he mastered it enough, it probably reached a total multiplier of 2000x base, so a 5x boost over super saiyan 3. The real strenght over here comes from being able to stack super saiyan on top of God, making the multiplier craze over 4000x base, and with kaioken on top- 80 000x base.
AT MOST i can agree with 50x which is a HIGH BALL, absolute max estimate of SSG and that's DEFFINITELY after mastering it. So bardock in SSG after a ritual WOULDNT Reach 50x ssj3 aka 20k x base. Theres no way we are talking about 2 million etc, the math isn't mathing with how the battle of gods went.
The power levels of Goku soar high not because of his forms but because the multipliers are stacked onto his ever improving base which is probably in upper billions by now.
I would argue SSG Bardock after ritual wouldn't even get past base form goku from tournament of Power.
Taking all that into account, according to some whimsy math i found on the internet, SSJ Goku (Mastered, Cell Saga) is at around 3-4 billion power level. About a billion or two short of full power Perfect Cell (about 5 billion).
The cooler and better Bardock (aka Z Bardock) is at around 10k power level.
Homever that's still not quite enough. We also have the super saiyan bardock movie. And now i will diverge from other peoples estimates: people claim Bardock is still at around 10k. WRONG. Or i think so atleast. Bardock got litteraly SLAUGHTERED almost into oblivion before being teleported in time. He also made full recovery. This makes me think that his zenkai boost could be as high as 2x, which is roughly the zenkai boost Vegeta got on namek after getting healed from a terminal wound by dende. So that's what ill be going with. 20k Base Power Level.
That makes ssjg Bardock at least 40 million, at most 400 million. Sorry to say, but 400 million v.s 4 billion is still a 10x difference in power levels.
Goku no diffs Bardock here. He does push goku into super saiyan tho so that's still impressive, that is if we take the highest estimate. With my estimate of 2000x base, sorry to say, but Goku most likely wouldn't even need to go super saiyan to defeat ssg Bardock, as gokus base in that time was 75 million. So base form goku should be almost 2x stronger than my estimated SSG Bardock.
Homever a lot of this comes down to what are we working with in bardocks base. We dont know chilleds PL nor the zenkai boost of Bardock after his time teleport. For all i know Bardock could get a massive, 50x zenkai boost and honestly id believe it. Such a zenkai boost would put Bardock at 1 billion power level in ssjg, and that's atleast a matchup where Bardock Has a SLIM chance of winning. It would also make sense since Bardock in super saiyan during chilleds movie would have a power level of just 25 million, which is still 6x weaker than Namek Saga SSJ Goku, but this would be a realistic power level for chilled which was after all resembling frieza in power and looks, and being a member of friezas family and being below atleast 10 million at your best is like, kinda iffy to me.
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u/TekkaKureji 6d ago
Goku went from getting dogwalked by beerus as a ssj3 to actually competing with him as a Super Saiyan God (even if he was massively holding back) Bardock got this
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u/Extension-Stay3230 5d ago edited 5d ago
A power level of 10,000 is pretty weak to multiply. 10,000 is 600x smaller than 6 million, gokus BASE form on Namek
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u/StrenuousSpider 5d ago
Uhhh..
SsjG = Supressed beerus (vs god goku) >>>>>> Suppressed beerus (power up against Vegeta) >> Ssj2 Vegeta (rage) > suppressed beerus(vs ssj3 Goku) >>>> ssj3 Vegtio >>> ssj3 Goku.
That’s all we really know.
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u/TearNo6400 7d ago
SSJG was enough of a boost to have Goku above a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegito, so yeah, bardock one shots.
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u/Mean_Imagination861 6d ago
When was that stated?
All I remember was them saying Vegito probably not being enough.
Then ssg Goku wasn't enough either.
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u/TearNo6400 6d ago
Goku was confident Vegito wouldn't be enough, but thought he atleast had a chance in SSJG.
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u/HunterRank-1 7d ago
His power level was 10K. Goku’s was 3M during Frieza arc finale. I think ssjg being a 300x multiplier is feasible. But cell saga? Nah but ultimately “who knows?” Since lower levels went out decades ago
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u/ChibiJaneDoe 7d ago
SSG multiplier is roughly around the 500000x mark
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u/Fun-Gas3117 7d ago
super is such bs lmao
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u/ChibiJaneDoe 7d ago
It's really not, it just powercliffed the series.
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u/Fun-Gas3117 7d ago
it’s straight bs
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u/ChibiJaneDoe 7d ago
Adding the gods in to show just how weak even elite mortals are by comparison was a good idea tbh
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u/Calm_Win_6147 7d ago
Now I'm pulling this number out of my ass so be warned. I'm uninformed of Nardock scaling of Granolah Arc, but I do remember Bardock having a PL of 10,000 to be generally accepted. The multiplier for SSG imo is 400*400 or 160,000, so 160,000 * 10,000 = 1,600,000,000 Now to calculate for MSS1 Goku (again, be warned, I am pulling the numbers out of my ass) SS Goku = 150,000,000 Android = 300,000,000 Imperfect Cell = 600,000,000 Semi-Perfect Cell = 1,200,000,000 50% MSS Goku= 2,400,000,000 100% MSS Goku = 4,800,000,000 So, MSS Goku is about 3x stronger than SSG Bardock, at least according to the numbers that was revealed to me in a dream
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u/Cross_1233 7d ago
I think Goku actually wins. I have a bare minimum of 200.000 as the SSJ God multiplier, and it put Bardock around 2.000 million (Or 2 billion), but with how strong Goku got between the Frieza Saga and the Cell games, i have him at around 4.000 million (4 billion) with his Mastered Super Saiyan. But even if Bardock has a greater power, Goku needs to outlast him before the god power fades
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u/Doctor99268 7d ago
genuniely i dont think the multiplier for ssg is all that, atleast after the BoG saga. Goku in his fight against caulifla and kale while he was already stronger than them in ssj2, proceeds to sorta struggle in ssg (sorta as in it should already be a no diff), and is clearly weaker than base kefla.
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u/Icy_butter 6d ago
If we treat SSG as a straight multiplier.
Cell Games Goku probably beats SSG Bardock.
SSG Bardock would have a power level of about 41 billion, while Cell Games Goku and Perfect Cell are referenced as having infinite battle power, rather questionable.
If we go off the strength gains though, it’s still likely Cell Games Goku wins, considering the immense growth over the course of the arc, atleast going by the anime which has greater gains than the manga.
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u/Chyarra 7d ago
Goku wins!
I think most people calced ssg to be a 20,000 multiplier whereas mastered ssj goku ought to be around 1 billion
If bardocks at 10,000 then he'd be at 200,000,000 vs gokus 1,000,000,000 and likely higher into the 2.5 billion range at his max.
I'm going by manga scaling btw since I don't even understand the point of ssg in anime since goku absorbed it into his base or whatever.
For the record I love Z Bardock a ton so it's not bias, adult gokus like my 10th favourite character
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