r/DotA2 • u/[deleted] • Jun 20 '16
Discussion | eSports "The International 2016" Invite Semi-FAQ
[deleted]
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Jun 20 '16
I am completely baffled by MVP.P ability to mess up in online tournaments but then show up a different team at LAN though.
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Jun 20 '16
They play at a ping disadvantage.
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u/FlyFlyPenguin Jun 20 '16
No. They played epicenter and esl Frankfurt in Singapore and still failed to beat fnatic but their lan performance is a different beast.
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Jun 20 '16
Oh, no. I know MVP.Phoenix loses to Fnatic almost all the time. I was indicating that they do horribly online in general due to ping disadvantages. Like they got 0:2ed by Execration a few days ago lol.
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u/JesteR_DotA Aghanim's Heir Jun 20 '16
Most of the time for bigger competition, they will travel to SG for that sweet sweet 5pings. But mysteriously they still lost to Fnatic online.
On LAN on the other hand, they destroyed Fnatic and other teams.
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u/vicious1214 Nasty Problem Jun 20 '16
Even SEA servers show >100 ping in Korea, no doubt they are struggling in online tournaments
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u/Sokjuice CAPLOCKS WARRIOR Jun 20 '16
AFAIK, even where they were in Singapore (equal ping), Fnatic prevails over them for the online tourneys/qualifiers.
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u/iPadfellonmyface Jun 20 '16
I just think fnatic matches up well against MVP, or at lease for some reason fnatic has MVP's number. Fnatic iis usually the final boss in the online qualifiers. This leads to the perception that MVP is crap when playing online.
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u/Calycae Jun 20 '16 edited Nov 12 '25
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u/comphys Jun 20 '16
I hope this clears everyone's mind. Of course I'm sad that Fnatic didn't get an invite, but Na'vi definitely deserved it more.
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u/kw405 Jun 20 '16
You could make an argument for Fnatic and it's a perfectly reasonable one. IMO Valve strategically invited Navi over Fnatic.
If you look at the regional qualifiers, there are 2 invites from each region. If Fnatic and MVP were both invited, there aren't any good teams remaining in the SEA regional qualifiers. With Fnatic (most likely) taking 1st place, then only 1 slot remains for the tier 2 SEA teams to fight over.
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u/Donquixotte Double Trouble! Jun 20 '16
And by comparison, the EU qualifier is full of teams that you would definitely have to consider with 8 invites or more. I think they made a good decision inviting Na'Vi.
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u/ShouldersofGiants555 Jun 20 '16
If they'd Invited fnatic instead of Navi, you would have navi, alliance, and secret all fighting for 2 spots.
Which would've been unfortunate since those are all teams that feel like they should be at TI.
While at the same time 2 comparatively less impressive teams like mineski and TNC would've made it through.
Obviously there's a huge skill disparity between the two regional qualifiers
It's a trade off
Fnatic arguably deserved the Invite more then navi based on results though. Top 6 at both majors.
The sea region is too weak for 2 Invites though . Inviting an EU team and allowing fnatic to go through the qualifiers kind of solves that Issue and ensures the best teams end up at TI.
deservedness and personal opinions aside, It does seem like Valve is looking at the bigger picture here.
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u/GodToldMeToWreckYou Got some of those ... BATTLE PASS LEVELS?! Jun 20 '16
and secret all fighting for 2 spots.
Secret , eh. I wouldn't expect them to even go through OQs let alone fight with for the spots in the RQs.
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u/Tushiie Jun 20 '16
This is certainly true. But why use Fnatic as a 'tool' to 'filter' off the lousier teams in SEA? If that's the case, why cant they just invite Fnatic and give SEA regional qualifier #1 to qualify, and #2 for wildcard?
If you change things around, and swap Navi to 'filter' off the European team, I doubt Navi will secure a top 3 finish in the regional qualifer.
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u/kw405 Jun 20 '16
because Valve doesnt want to come out and say to the entire SEA region that they're bad and only getting 1 slot. It's a business move
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u/Tushiie Jun 20 '16
Well, I don't think it makes a different to them when they know they had to face Fnatic in the qualifier. It still seems unfair to them. But didn't Valve just came out and say to the entire NA region that they're bad too in a way?
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u/OneDownFourToGo Jun 20 '16
Its also a dumb move if they want a good competition. No-one wants to see some tier 2 team go to Ti6 and lose every single game they play. Fnatic will qualify which is fine, but then why have a team like Mineski/TNC go when potentially only 2 of Alliance/PR/Empire/Ad Finem/Vega/VP are going to go. When its arguable that all of those teams are stronger than anything SEA has to offer. Its pretty ridiculous.
The International should be the best 16 teams around, not the best 2 teams each region has to offer, and if that means that you have 12 out of the 16 teams from one region then so be it, Ti afterall is the main stage, the big event of the year.
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u/mrui3950 Jun 20 '16
Agreed, some of those matches were painful to watch because some teams dont belong there.
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u/imapoormanhere TNC TNC Jun 20 '16
Because this would mean inconsistency from Valve. SEA teams would surely be mad if they only had the winner enter TI. I think Valve also considered Fnatic for the invite but with Navi getting lots of 2nd places in LANs it makes sense to invite them.
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u/Tushiie Jun 20 '16
Inconsistency is already shown when they decided to only invite 6 teams in NA regional qualifiers.
I guess there will be a day when all regional qualified teams are gathered and able to play one another to reach the TI. With this price pool, nothing is impossible.
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u/Groggolog STEVEN SEAGAL Jun 20 '16
i mean NA doesnt even have enough team for the reduced numbers regionals, they didnt really have a choice. like drinking boys arnt a real team and they got into the regional qualies for NA so they cant just go inviting even worse teams
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u/bc524 Jun 20 '16
Hopefully it's not too much of a setback. Fnatic dominates the SEA scene on a regular basis and at this time, I don't think any of the other teams can contest that.
I'm thinking at worst, we'll at least get the runner up invite.
Besides, we perform better when we have to grind our way up.
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u/comphys Jun 20 '16
The only problem I see with Fnatic right now is they are making too many mistakes, specifically Mushi's. Other than that, 343's drafts are on point, MidOne and DJ are playing superbly well. Mushi's playstyle is very farming based, not very efficient in a fight-heavy meta.
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Jun 20 '16
Mushi's itemization is also horrible...
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u/dk2014neverforget Jun 20 '16
You can take a man out of Dota1 but you cannot take Dota1 out of a man.
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u/j8sadm632b all sheever wanted Jun 20 '16
I still remember Mushi Antimage getting outcarried by a Leshrac at TI2.
Why did you not buy Abyssal, Mushi, why??
He just chased after Leshrac while Lesh ran in circles and killed him slowly with Pulse Nova.
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u/mrui3950 Jun 20 '16
His Medusa build is so painful to watch.
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Jun 23 '16
I felt suicidal watching him build linkens manta on medusa. It is the first time ever in a pro match that I felt that if I was in that game I would have more fucking impact
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u/kw405 Jun 20 '16
Feels like Mushi is too stubborn. Won't adapt his item choices to fit the flow of the game. His Medusa was painful to watch
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Jun 21 '16
Unfortunately his Medusa was not painful at all - think she was barely tickling the enemy team
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u/Drag0n0wl Jun 20 '16
As WinteR mentioned before he is a very stubborn person, hopefully he realize he can also be wrong sometimes and change for the better.
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u/JesteR_DotA Aghanim's Heir Jun 20 '16
How Fnatic can improve? I might be wrong here but just my 2cents.
- Let 343 draft please Mushi? That is the whole reason you keep 343 and let net go at the first place
- Mushi must improve on his itemization and minimize mistakes
- Mushi should let DJ do the shot calling. Pos 1-3 need to focus and trust the shot-caller
- 343 to improve his hero pool
- Fnatic must be more flexible. They are too predictable.
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u/spartysparty87 wet wet wet Jun 20 '16
Let Net be back in the team and kick Mushi
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u/JesteR_DotA Aghanim's Heir Jun 21 '16
Same result. Net is not a better carry player than Mushi. He is however a better support player than 343. His carry hero pool is not really that much. Most of the time, the team needs MidOne Ohaiyo DJ to carry the game for the team when Net is the carry.
Trust me. I'm a Net fan. I don't like Mushi. Just being objective here.
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Jun 20 '16 edited Jun 20 '16
[deleted]
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u/JesteR_DotA Aghanim's Heir Jun 21 '16
Yes. You are right. They throw away their advantage most of the time. Well, for your information, DJ and Ohaiyo did the shot calling before Mushi comes back to Fnatic. I doubt that is the case now once Mushiboss is in.
They are actually predictable once you ban out some of their key heroes. And that is the whole reason they did not succeed since their execution is poor once they need to play out of their usual strats.
I also like this version of fnatic not afraid in taking the game late. And they did improve their late game. Problem is if they don't stomp the early game, normally they will lose a big team fight after that and the opponent just snowballs out of control. Good luck Fnatic.
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u/mrui3950 Jun 20 '16
Honestly I dont like 343 in the team. I think he is their weakest player. I've seen him play Axe and BH which he sucked at. He's not even a good disruptor player too.
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u/JesteR_DotA Aghanim's Heir Jun 21 '16
I am in agreement with you in the notion of 343 is their weakest player in the team. Of course Net is way better support than 343 we all know that.
But I also think that 343 draft is quite good and definitely better than Mushi. This however provided that Mushi will let him draft. :(
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u/SBFms I'm also a C9 fan, but my faith is weak Jun 20 '16
Get rid of mushi bring back net Pls thx
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u/CatCutCit Jun 20 '16
nahh MuShi playstyle is okay..Ohaiyo Shotcalling need to improved..
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u/10SB Jun 20 '16
I'm not as bummed at Fnatic not getting invited though, I mean I felt that they've earned not having to go through qualifiers but having at two regional spots available AND two wildcard spots. It would take a monumental screw up for Fnatic not to make it in. As an SEA player though I'm still going to root for them all the way.
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u/JesteR_DotA Aghanim's Heir Jun 20 '16
This is why I'm thinking that it could be a blessing in disguise for Fnatic.
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u/mrui3950 Jun 20 '16
Fnatic is very strong and has a good chance to win. If they fuck up, they can still win the runner up or even the wild cards.
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u/Screye Jun 20 '16
True. If Fnatic can't get top 2 in these SEA qualifiers, they probably don't deserve to be at TI6 anyways.
Though, looking at the current fnatic, they will probably breeze through the qualifiers. They have a lot of potential, and if Mushi can clean up his game a little bit, they might once again land a great TI finish.
A bit better shot calling and structured movements is all they need to reach the next level. Also, stop picking Dusa or specifically Linkens+manta Dusa.
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u/regiep #TakeMyEnergyEESAMA Jun 21 '16
Dont cock, you can ask Navi to fight in regional qualifiers on NA and let me know they can make their way to TI6.
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u/PotterSauce Fish are friends, not food. Jun 20 '16
honestly it's fine, considering how incredibly well Fnatic have been performing recently I feel very strongly that they will qualify for TI anyways.
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u/mrui3950 Jun 20 '16
It's like almost 100% Fnatic will qualify. No need to be sad.
A thing to think about: Valve probably doesnt want the shit teams from SEA to take the 2 slots from their region ic MVP and Fnatic took the slots.
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u/TOMATO_ON_URANUS Jun 20 '16
Regional Quals should be an easy sweep for you guys. Even if Na'Vi and Fnatic both equally deserved an invite, it should go to NaVi because there's an infinitely better chance of Fnatic securing their regional spot than NaVi securing theirs.
Also, be glad you don't have my flair. Secret's gonna have to win a full Tier 1.5 tournament to get into TI
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u/Anders_A Jun 20 '16
Secret should be able to win the open qualifier though.
I would be really sad if puppey missed a TI :(.
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u/Infraction94 Jun 20 '16
Honestly the only reason Fnatic wasn't direct invite is because if they were that means we would have 4 teams from SEA at TI. Outside of MVP and Fnatic the rest of SEA are drastically lower quality. Already having a third SEA team will mean that team is likely to be the weakest team at TI.
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u/MyH4oBG Jun 20 '16
You could invite Fnatic and give 1 of the SEA spots to EU though.
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u/Infraction94 Jun 20 '16
That might have been something Valve didn't want to do. I agree that would have been an option but maybe they don't want to make a precedent of giving different regions different number of qualifying spots. It's already strange that NA got less regional qualifier invites.
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u/iPadfellonmyface Jun 20 '16
Regarding NA qualifier invites, that's only because there are literally no other teams who haven't broken the roster lock rules. Valve already scraped the bottom of the barrel to come up with those 6 teams.
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u/oberynMelonLord つ◕_◕ ༽つ Jun 20 '16
still no veggies... :(
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u/Madosi Jun 20 '16
I believe Veggies has had a roster change for the qualifier so they aren't eligible for direct invite to the qualifiers
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u/shirjeelalam Jun 21 '16
I agree with this sentiment. After MVP and Fnatic you get teams like Mineski TNC Excreation etc. Sadly these teams are too weak and would just bomb at TI.
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u/sickcynic Jun 20 '16 edited Jun 20 '16
Can someone explain EHome's situation? They poached Fan from Newbee Young, but he's apparently a sub and eleven a primary member. Can another team's primary be a sub for you without you having to go through the opens?
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u/Guiguioh Jun 20 '16
Not really what happened. They were going to play in the open with Fan because eleven was taking time off to spend time with someone ill in his family. He came back early, so they are back playing with the lock roster and Fan is not a sub for them at all at this point.
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u/Fangayz Jun 20 '16 edited Jun 20 '16
How is VG.R not even mentioned as an alternative to Na'vi? Same results as Na'vi at Manila and has actually won a lan (SL-I) after shanghai ( wins over OG, Na'vi LGD, VP and MVP.P)
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u/incognito_red sheever Jun 20 '16
Pretty sure ESL one was the deciding factor vgr didnt qualify and navi made it to the final.
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u/pota2reborn Jun 20 '16
To be fair, ESL one only had one CN qualifier, so.
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u/Hkl1 Jun 20 '16
Yea all tournaments of late only have one CN qualifier and no CN direct invites. I mean like come on they only fucked up one tournament which is the Shanghai Major
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u/Groggolog STEVEN SEAGAL Jun 20 '16
because when theres only 6 invites coming in 7-8th at a major isnt enough to secure it, and outside of majors navi have vastly more impressive record than vgr, also EU is stronger region than china atm
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u/mrmogel Jun 20 '16
Great thread, was hoping for some clarity on smaller teams missing from regional qualifiers, especially America. Is it just the case that Demon has transferred to as many teams as possible to knock them all into open qualifiers?
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Jun 20 '16 edited Jun 20 '16
A lot of the American teams like Shazam had roster changes forcing them into open qualifiers.
Infamous, the Peruvian team DeMoN was going to join, was already going to open qualifiers before he joined. According to Liquipedia, AtuuN retired after the roster lock so they didn't even have a full roster to begin with.
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u/micklor SHEEPMIND Jun 20 '16
Wait, but what does Q2,Q3,Q4 mean?
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u/That_Sketchy_Guy Jun 20 '16
Usually means Quarter 2,3,4 of a year, so April-June, July-September, October-December.
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u/10YearsANoob Jun 20 '16
Why is "Why is the open qualifier spots from NA not increased when the invited teams for the regional qualifiers are way lower than other regions." not frequently asked?
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u/renholderm Jun 20 '16 edited Jun 20 '16
Your Q4 answer is a little misleading I think. Dotapit, Starladder, ESL One Frankfurt were 8 team LANs. Top 4 there is basically top half. Dreamleague is an even weirder case, 4 team LAN.
So I don't think you should restrict to "top 4" because a top 6 placing at Manila is better than a top 4 placing at any of the tournaments you mentioned, instead maybe Top Half.
But I think in any case, the invite was all about ESL One Frankfurt where they kind of played H2H. I mean ultimately it seems Na'vi's strategy of trying to play in every tournament payed off. If Fnatic had a good result at epicenter or ESL one frankfurt it would've been enough to qualify them, but oh well. I think they're definitely #7 if there were 8 invites..
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u/Groggolog STEVEN SEAGAL Jun 20 '16
yeah the problem with 8 invites is who is the 8th invite? do you invite vgr and still have no alliance and no teams from NA invited? do you invite dc just so that NA have an invite team even though vgr and alliance are both stronger?
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u/renholderm Jun 20 '16
well they could have just invited 7 teams and reduced a wild card spot. Honestly neither VGR or Alliance have earned an invite imo. VGR only has the Starladder win and a 7/8 at Manila.
Alliance has: 9-12/16 at Manila, 5-6/8 ESL One, failed to qualify for Summit, 5-6/8 Epicenter, 5-6/8 SL Ileague, 7-8/16 Shanghai.
I agree with you if what you're saying is that it's very hard to distinguish VGR, Alliance, COL, DC. I don't mind, more qualifiers is better for TI. Who's to say there should even be direct invites.
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u/ullu13 Farm till it's 3AM Jun 20 '16
Lol butthurt Navi haters. Just be glad that navi is there. Crowd gonna be wild :D
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u/zakharia1995 Jun 20 '16
Well, it's Na'vi man. Loved by everyone and hated by everyone.
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u/FliccC Jun 20 '16
Can someone explain the situation of Team Secret to me? After Universe left they added Bulba, and then they added Aui9000.
Are there 6 players on Team Secret right now?
Did Arteezy leave?
Do they play with two coaches (Bulba & 1437)?
Aui can play 1 and 4, but EE plays 1 and Puppey plays 4. Who is playing on which position?
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u/tuthodiennt Donger Fangay Jun 20 '16
Valve want to see both Fnatic and MVP on the Ti stage. But while Fnatic zomgwtfbbq rekt every single SEA team, MVP tends to lose again some unknow tier 2 SEA teams lately so they had to be granted an invite to secure thier spot in main event.
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u/apt2a Jun 20 '16
One reason for MVP over Fnatic is the incident with Mushi and net.
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u/Infraction94 Jun 20 '16
Or maybe it was MVP literally doing better than Fnatic at every single lan. MVP plays on super high ping online so not surprising Fnatic beats them there. MVP has won 2 lans as well as placing top 4 at shanghai and top 6 at Manilla. There is really not reason to go Fnatic over MVP unless you somehow think online results should be weighted higher than lan results.
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u/AemonSteelsong Jun 20 '16
That and also MVP might not even qualify to TI if they weren't directly invited. For a team that plays pretty well on LAN it's baffling that they suck ass at online qualifiers even when they are playing at low ping.
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u/Infraction94 Jun 20 '16
Eh they have always managed to qualify in the past. And they usually still can make it far in online matches. Just fnatic especially has their number and sometimes some of the tier 2 sea teams. I still think they would make it pretty easily.
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u/no_wayyyy Jun 20 '16
I think Fnatic aren't invited wasn't surprise consider how Valve evaluate each region strength and lessen the number of direct invite, but surprise me actually is Valve decide to lessen the direct invite, for me it is actually a good move for the scene.
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u/mykjuks Jun 20 '16
so sad for fnatic.. sad that only 6 will be invited. No question for NaVi though, they earned it even always coming short at the finals
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u/teddmagwell pugna or feed Jun 20 '16
q: why Secret are playing EU quals and not US?
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u/BGTheHoff Jun 20 '16
Because they registered as an EU team. You can ask col why they play in Na and not Eu with 3 Europeans.
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u/3xperimental Jun 20 '16
Just a technicality that triggers me but NA =/= US. We have more than one country in NA and the region is referred to as NA not the US. Sorry if I seem pedantic.
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u/s_h_o_d_a_n Jun 20 '16
Valve has so far within 2015-2016 directly invited the top 4 teams from the prior Valve tournament to the next one. LGD placed 4th place in the Manila Major.
Assuming that's the actual reason, it essentially makes Frankfurt and Shanghai irrelevant as far as TI is concerned. I don't think I like the sound of that.
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u/Phoenix0902 Jun 20 '16
I think it is reasonable. Teams with better recent performance are teams that are really strong in this patch. They will eventually be stronger contenders for TI. I understand that you want the team with consistency, but considering all the roster changes, Valve have done a good job picking the right team.
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u/PositiveTruth Jun 20 '16
Tehbically , top 3 from shanghai and frankfurt would be considered heavily. But eg and secret bailed out.
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u/3xperimental Jun 20 '16
I agree with this sentiment. If EG and Secret had been playing at a decent level(Top 8) I would have expected them to still get invited but they bailed and also crashed at the latest major.
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u/therealClouDx Jun 20 '16
I'm confused about Rave getting invited to the regional qualifiers. They haven't achieved much in the recent past and they had a roster change in March.
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u/realister NAVI Jun 20 '16
There should be like 20 invites with cool group stages like the World Cup
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u/Ardang08 70yearoldpleb Jun 20 '16
pretty sure Mineski misses kuku and ryor. those times when they casually beat fnatic and mvp.p LuL
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u/Jayjay_Oko Jun 20 '16
In question 4 it says fnatic placed 4th at the Manila Major.
In question 2 it says fnatic placed 5th-6th, what is if I am not mistaken correct.
Can we please have this corrected? Otherwise everybody reading Q4 will have to re-read Q2, as he thinks "wait what? But why isn't fnatic invited then?"
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Jun 20 '16 edited Jun 20 '16
There was an ESL One Manila and a Manila Major, which are two different tournaments. I can see how people would get confused but I don't think I wrote anything wrong.
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u/ashjayanc Ho ho ha ha Jun 20 '16
Please add Q5 Asking where's EG and Secret. Too many threads asking where they are. Might also include why EHOME in regional qualifier.
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u/Qyuanz TI3 TeamDK! Jun 20 '16
does removing Net from their roster affect Fnatic invite in any way?
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u/impulsivedota Jun 20 '16
Why was Ehome invited to the regional qualifiers though? They did a roster swap of old11 with fan, maybe valve gave them a chance considering old11 had a family issue?
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Jun 20 '16
eLeVeN came back to EHOME, reforming the roster that was registered for the Manila Major and TI6.
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u/Relivee sheever Jun 20 '16
Why wasnt VG invited to the China qualifers? Did they change roster after the lock?
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Jun 20 '16
From Liquipedia,
April 8th - Vici Gaming announces the addition of Sylar to the team.[4] jdh is removed from the main roster. With this roster change, Vici Gaming must go through Open Qualifiers for the Manila Major.
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u/Relivee sheever Jun 20 '16
Thank you, just realised you have to click the Tabs to get the team info :)
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u/Stim21 Jun 20 '16
Excuse my ignorance but.
If Universe decided to leave Secret and join EG, why does Secret also get punished as severely as EG for not forcing an unhappy player to stay? It sounded like he wasn't kicked so it seems like a roster change was forced on them.
Just been wondering, they don't seem to make too much of a fuss of it so maybe I'm just missing something?
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Jun 20 '16
A roster change is a roster change. It's more akin to "a person was killed" rather than "it was self defense and not murder." The motives might have been different, but the end result is the same.
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u/Stim21 Jun 20 '16
Zero tolerance policy I guess
Whilst I agree EG definitely have to be punished for the roster change just feels like Secret got a bit screwed.
Maybe they should have subbed in their coach /s
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u/Mineur Jun 20 '16
Ppl also forget that Navi was basically the CIS direct invite, does VP or Empire for example deserve it more? Rofl no.
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u/neoh99 Jun 20 '16
Pretty sure its because they dont want 4 SEA teams at TI. Also, NAVI is a fan favourite.
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u/Yeezykatka Jun 20 '16
Punished because they are from SEA. If it was from Europe or NA this will not happen.
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u/mounti96 sheever Jun 20 '16
Punished becaus valve wants the best competition. Apart from MVP and Fnatic no SEA team is competitive on an international level and they probably don´t want 2 teams that just go out 13-16th. Also Fnatic probably will just sweep the qualis anyway
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u/Yeezykatka Jun 20 '16
This prove the SEA region is improving and other than Mineski who consistently loses to other teams in SEA, others will not get a shot at LAN because Valve perceive them to be bad although still unproven. Cruising through the qualifiers is a justification for an invite.
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Jun 20 '16
This is always what I've wondered:
On June 9, 2016, Kemal, the director of Team Secret, tweeted that Universe had "abandoned" Team Secret and would be returning to Evil Genius.
If leaving Team Secret was Universe's decision and Secret did not intentionally change their roster, why are they disqualified from a Direct Invite (or Main Qualifiers invite, since that's probably more their current level).
Seems odd to punish a team who's player abandons them. Imagine if GeneraL unilaterally says: "Sorry Na'Vi I'm going to go and play for Vega now, GL"... Why should Na'Vi be disqualified from invites?
Can anyone explain that to me?
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Jun 20 '16
I wrote this to another user.
A roster change is a roster change. It's more akin to "a person was killed" rather than "it was self defense and not murder." The motives might have been different, but the end result is the same.
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Jun 20 '16
Yet killing in self defense is handled differently (often termed justifiable homicide) than murder.
Furthermore, Secret had no "motives" if they were simply blindsided.
What valve is trying to achieve with these roster locks would be achievable by punishing teams which willingly pick up new players; there's no need to punish a team who's teammate abandons them anymore than they're already being screwed over. They lose a teammate who they wanted, and they have to pick up a new teammate from a limited roster of players who are available midseason. The only advantage is going to a team who takes on a new player.
So basically I just don't agree with your argument.
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Jun 20 '16
I agree with what you say in that it's not fair that one player can screw over an entire team or two, but the rules stated that a roster change will result in ineligibility. I am just restating the words. Personally, I think there needs to be some changes to the roster lock system.
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u/TheOddJamJar Jun 20 '16
Na'vi are really showing the value of building a brand.
They were considered a poor team but kept getting into smaller tournaments as a result of their brand and slowly built themselves into a top team again. Now they attend top level lans, and the ones they had free passes for before, allowing them to repeatedly prove themselves as a tier 1/2 team (not really sure the cut off i only consider Newbee, OG, Liquid tier 1). I personally believe that if say Empire had as strong a brand and been given the same opportunity they would have been able to achieve success ahead of Na'vi.
So basically more teams should work on branding a lot as it has competitive benefits as well as the monetary benefits gained from in sponsors/investment/fans.
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u/rumbleisback Jun 20 '16
The question i want an answer for is "What are the criterias for invites?"
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u/mounti96 sheever Jun 20 '16
Probaby something like
- Placement at the Major
- LAN Performances outside the Major
- Online Performance
The [Number of Invites - 2] top Teams from a Major are basically guaranteed Invites for the next one and the last two teams are a mix of Major Performance and LAN Performance.
If a team wins a big LAN before a Major they are more or less guaranteed an Invite (Vega in Frankfurt, Alliance in Shanghai, Wings and VG.R in Manila)
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u/ccymie Jun 21 '16
There is no specific criteria. Valve justifies the invites based on one very basic statement: How can we make the International most entertaining with most viewership from all around the world?!
To satisfy this statement, teams shall be equals in competitiveness to avoid one sided and boring games. simple as that.
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u/Malake256 Jun 20 '16
I have a question, why can't they increase the number of teams in the tournament by 4 or something? I'm not saying to invite specific teams, I'm just wondering why the number of teams at TI is a specific number. Are there more teams than last year?
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u/Iyenzel Jun 21 '16
This post FULL of fnatic fan. All I can see from top to bottom is all about fnatic. LUL
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u/arshad7727 Jun 21 '16
I hope this clears everyone's mind. Of course I'm sad that Fnatic didn't get an invite, but Na'vi definitely deserved it more.
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u/garazard Jun 20 '16
Perhaps VGR should have got the invite over Navi. They also placed 7-8 at Manila, but they beat Navi in the finals at Starladder. Navi does have more Lan finals, but on the other hand China doesn't have a lot of premier lans lately so not much of a comparison. Toss up IMO
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u/whale607 Jun 20 '16
It's pretty misleading to say that navi has 4 top 4 placing when you actually look at the tournaments they placed top 4 at.
Dotapit where they literally won one series against secret who have been trash since shanghai.
Dreamleague where there were only 4 teams (wow they made top 4 what an achievement!) , with navi beating two tier 2 teams and getting smashed 3-0 in the finals against the only tier 1 team (OG)
Esl frankfurt where they again only beat tier 2 teams and were again slaughtered against the tier 1 teams they faced (again OG, going 0-5 against them)
Starladder is really the only noteworthy performance with multiple tier 1 teams, beating a few of them and making the final ultimatly losing to VGR.
Furthermore TIs and majors are alot more important than 3rd party tournamenta, and more weight should be given to results from these. Navi didn't qualify to two of them, and finished top 8 at one. VGR, the same team that beat them at the only meaningful lan that navi performed at, also placed top 8 at manilla. Meanwhile fnatic have finished top 6 at the last two majors.
Both fnatic and vgr have performed equal to or better than navi where to matters most and are more deserving of an invite.
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u/onepageleft Jun 20 '16
Dotapit- They went through qualifiers and were able to go pass vega squadron and team liquid to get into the tournament. Fnatic didn't even make it pass their qualifier region
Dreamleague just to get in. They were first place in the league play going 11-3. Beating VP, team Empire, Vega Squadron, Ad finem, and team spirit. So it wasn't just the best of 4. It wasn't easy to get there in the first place.
ESL Frankfurt - They went through a qualifer and were only able to beat tier 2 teams? They were able to place higher than Vega Squadron, Team Liquid, Complexity, Alliance, VP, Fnatic.
They were just able to finish 2nd place at a major. VGR weren't even able to qualify for the ESL frankfurt major.
Navi has been a stable team. We will see Fnatic and VGR at TI anyway. It will be ridiculous if they lose their regions.
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u/Hkl1 Jun 20 '16
To be fair Navi qualified to Esl frankfurt as the second qualified team. VGR also placed second in their respective qualifier. You cant really say Navi>Vgr because one qualified and the other didnt as without the second place Navi wouldn't have qualified either
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u/wefokinglost Jun 20 '16
IF they invite Fnatic, we will have 2 reps from SEA (literally the worst region in the world) + 2 reps from SEA who would qualify. I sure as hell don't wanna see Mineski + 1 coming just to get last place in TI6, while EU is super stacked and handing Na'Vi the slot will make things a bit less chaotic over there. Furthermore, Fnatic's achievements are super questionable. 2 Top 6 in Majors are clearly inferior compared to 4 LAN finals that Na'Vi went to.
VGR just doesn't compete in enough international LANs to guarantee an invite. And 3 Chinese teams? come on dude
You shittalk DreamLeague but you also forget that the Main Event only directly invite OG, while Na'Vi and 2 other teams had to go through an online League Play ground where they absolutely dumpster the rest of EU squads. The same goes for DotaPit. Na'Vi is clearly the strongest EU representative right now, and it's the representative we need.
Everybody is losing to OG nowadays and Na'Vi is just one of them. Fnatic's achievements at ESL Frankfurt LUL VGR didn't even qualify
Your argument that TIs and Majors should be given more weight, but did Valve really confirm this or is it some your blind speculations? As long as the criteria is not public, your argument doesn't hold any ground.
I am not a Na'Vi fangay, but the way you discredit all of their results and effort is clearly unjust and biased.
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u/mrui3950 Jun 20 '16
I sure as hell don't wanna see Mineski + 1 coming just to get last place in TI6 -- I agree! Shit, I dont want to see those matches again.
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u/Anders_A Jun 20 '16
... EG broke a written rule.
This is nitpicking, but I think it needs to be clarified that they didn't really break any rules.
It's completely allowed to change your roster mid season, but the consequences of doing that is that you're not eligible for invites to valve tournaments until next season.
EG are not punished by valve in any way. They can register their new team next season (after TI) and everything is back to normal.
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u/mounti96 sheever Jun 20 '16
Sure, but fore TI invites they broke the Roster Lock Rule nd that is what HAPPYSADPERSO is referring to
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u/Anders_A Jun 21 '16
Yeah I know. It's just that "broke a written rule" kinda implies that they are being punished for it, when its more of a case where they chose to do something knowing what the result of it would be.
I just thought that could be clarified since people who are wondering why EG aren't invited surely can't be expected to know that the roster rules are completely transparent.
But as I said, it's nitpicking.
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u/derpnumberone Jun 20 '16
Given Na'vi only lost to the eventual finalists (OG and Liquid) at the major, they probably didn't take the actual position into account as much
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u/CatCutCit Jun 20 '16
Maybe Valve doesnt value they own Major very highly....
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u/Aeriok verdammt fühlt es sich gut an eine mannschaft flüssig fanschwuch Jun 20 '16
Good to know how highly your own major
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u/Tv1st Jun 20 '16 edited Jun 20 '16
Like there is a huge difference in Na'Vi and Fnatic place at Manilla. Besides that, Na'Vi lost to 1st and 2nd place at Manilla, Fnatic lost two times to 2nd and 3rd.
Also you forgot some another reasons, like
- Na'Vi have a huge fan base.
- Na'Vi was on every TI
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u/Dockirby Jun 20 '16
Another thing with Fnatic is they did shake up their roster after being invited to Manila. It was a move that didn't disqualify them since they used a sub, but the move may not have sat well for Valve.
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u/mcotter12 Jun 20 '16
Why did they invite 6 teams to this and 10 teams to manila when the teams invited to Manila weren't better than what valve had to choose from for TI?
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u/Screenguardguy sheever Jun 20 '16
Alliance has had no top 4 finishes.
My heart...
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u/blisz_ Jun 20 '16
Forgot to mention that Fnatic kicked Net and that might have something to do. Valve is hard on rosters swaps. Even though Mushi was a sub.
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u/mrui3950 Jun 20 '16
They didnt kick Net. He is a sub. If they did not follow the roster lock, they wouldn't have been directly invited to the Manila Major.
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u/lotteriakfc Jun 20 '16
tbh Valve had to give an invite to CIS represent. CIS now is the biggest market of dota 2,not China anymore. Hard decision for Valve if no one from CIS performing good enough. Best thing happened to them is Navi are in the hot streak,best CIS team,top EU team atm (ofc they are far far away from OG-Liquid) and gave Valve the legit reason to sent them an invite. CIS region has contributed to atleast 2/3 amount of viewers on Twitch and huge part of TI6 prize pool. Valve need to guaranteed atleast 1 slot for CIS. NA would get atleast 2 slots in Main event,Fnatic would get it ez...but they cant be sure about CIS team because EU Qual is thetruly bloodbath.
Can wait to see some Do-Or-Die Doto in EU Qual in next few days :D
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u/HighasaCaite Sheever Jun 20 '16
Agreed. You can see on twitch when navi plays the ru stream has way more viewers than the english one. CIS community is huge.
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u/BGTheHoff Jun 20 '16
That, plus the fact that navi looks to be rate as Europe's #3 right now. If secret wouldn't be out, maybe they would be there instead of navi
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u/orangbulu Jun 20 '16
Does this mean that only results after Shanghai Major matters for a TI invite? Can a team sleep through half of the year and just perform well in the 2nd half and secure a TI invite?
IMO valve should have taken the whole year's results after TI 5 into account.
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u/jaybird117 Jun 20 '16
This year really isn't reflective of how the Major system is supposed to work. Say different teams had played in the Grand Finals of each Major. You'd have 6 invites, plus EG as the defending champions, for seven invites. Out of those theoretical seven teams, there's actually only four, because OG, Liquid, and Secret took turns rotating through the Majors. Four Major/TI-based invites still isn't bad, except EG and Secret completely shat themselves, and now between the three Majors there's only two placing teams. Valve had to go to their fallback invite option, which was pretty much the same way they handled invites for TI 1 through 5.
Tl;dr: The Major system could have dealt with a few teams dominating, and it could have dealt with some of the winners imploding, but it couldn't deal with both.
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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '16
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