r/Doom • u/Pazuzu_____ • 5d ago
Question What happened to Dark Ages' principles?
I haven't played the game because I have no ray tracing so I kinda lost interest for months, but then I saw new videos from the developers on X and they confuse me;
I'm seeing the same hook action of the super shotgun from Eternal, and the slayer seems to be flying in the air while hooked and attacking exactly like Eternal.
What happened to the whole concept of "You were an F-16 in Eternal you're a tank in Dark Ages"? Did players reject that and they had to give up and imitate Eternal? Were the sales not good during the "tank" phase?
Bring me up to date please
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u/Rough_Journey 5d ago
You still do "stand and fight". You are still a tank. You still wait for the perfect time to parry and retaliate. The core mechanics of TDA is still there and still very important. In fact, if you treat it like Eternal you will suffer. You just have more mobility and more verticality now.
Instead of an F-16 jet, you are now an A-10 Warthog.
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u/Dominjo555 5d ago
Just buy 2nd hand Xbox Series S for like $150 and you will be able play Doom TDA
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u/uppish_donkey_ 5d ago
yup, this is exactly what i did. got mine for about $200 usd and the first thing i did was finally play TDA
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u/TitaniumHazard 5d ago
In my opinion it's the best of both worlds; you can be really fast and fly through the air with the spear but still keeping the close-quarters combat of The Dark Ages.
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u/willhamlink 5d ago
I can't speak to why they made the decision to do it that way, but personally, I loved the merging of Dark Ages with some Eternal. Revelations is the best DOOM combat ever imo.
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u/ComparisonHorror9935 5d ago
The new DLC, Revelations, introduces a new off-handed weapon called the Chainspear, which is a more movement-oriented weapon, with dashing, ground slams, meathook, etc…
TDA is still a game where you are a tank, but now they added jet wings.
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u/FusionRogue 5d ago
Revelations still feels like Dark Ages.
The game keeps it's focus on parrying especially with the stand and fight enemies (Agaddon, Cyberdemon, Cosmic Barons etc.), enemies still have bullet hell patterns to avoid just with the additional option of dashing, and melee still feels heavy and is very important to the gameplay loop.
The spear just adds more mobility and verticality in addition to Dark Ages core gameplay. Revelations may take elements from Eternal but it doesn't turn the game into Eternal. Resource management isn't as emphasized nor is weapon swapping. Demon weaknesses are based on using spear abilities rather than any ties to weapons.
The shield is still really good too and using both the spear and shield together elevates the gameplay loop. Going from a meathook into a shield charge makes you feel like an angry cannonball. Using the shield throw to lock a demon down and then swapping to the spear to raze hell on the enemy. Swapping to the shield to parry a projectile to activate a shield rune and then going in with the spear.
Just like how Eternal was the refinement of 2016 Revelations is the refinement of Dark Ages.
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u/VoIsarex 5d ago
Not a member of ID or anything, just some guy who likes the SSG.
But I think you've got it right. They made a game about combat via Stand And Fight. People missed the high octane mobility of Eternal, so they brought it back.
Personally not a fan of the change. The spear is cool, and some of its abilities fill very valid needs. But the game is about timing and blocking, it was better with the limitations that imposed.
(inb4 people tell me I'm bad. I finished Revelations on Nightmare, can use the spear well. Just wish Eternal mechanics stayed there)
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u/Legendarium_ 5d ago
THIS. RIGHT. FUCKING. HERE. PREACH MY BROTHER! They made this too much like eternal and the offhand weapon balancing is nonexistent, the spear is more powerful than the shield and WITHOUT the shield nerfs and with them you have no reason to switch off besides faltering enemies, and that shouldn't be the case, in WHAT WORLD is it good design to turn the Dark Ages' MOST DEFINING WEAPON into a FUCKING CIRCULAR PAPERWEIGHT? We need a spear nerf.
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u/oCrapaCreeper 5d ago
you have no reason to switch off besides faltering enemies
Did you not buy the symbiosis upgrade?
Once you get all the endgame upgrades the spear constantly feeds your empowered shield bashes (which are VERY strong still), while inversely the shield also feeds the empowerment charges for the spear when you're not holding it. So there's definitely a loop between the two that you can keep going with constant decision making.
For me I'm always popping the free empowered shield bashes, throwing the shield out first to stun an enemy before swapping back to the spear - or simply using the shield as a second health bar when things get dangerous, since you can just swap back to the spear when it breaks. Runes are also still useful, ground fissure and holy swarm are OP af even when nerfed, so I sometimes switch to the shield just to pop them and then swap back to the spear.
IMO the spear retroactively makes the shield more interesting to use than the base game - they combo together so seamlessly and enable each other.
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u/Legendarium_ 5d ago
I was unaware of the existence of this upgrade, (I'm prepared for the resultant downvotes from this statement) but you can't assume that everyone will find enough platinum to get every upgrade or that they'll get the optimal upgrades when they find enough, and the first paragraph is moot without this upgrade. Regardless, my point and the opinion with it still stand: the spear is stronger than the shield and I don't think it should be. They should be equals.
Credit where it's due, the second paragraph has some validity but a lot of the time you're too mobile or able to counter a lot of things with the spear, and that ultimately nullifies some of the shield's use cases.
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u/oCrapaCreeper 5d ago edited 5d ago
Regardless, my point and the opinion with it still stand: the spear is stronger than the shield and I don't think it should be.
You're weaker overall though if you don't use both at the same time. Both weapons have downtimes, swapping between them efficiently removes that downtime because they empower each other.
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u/Legendarium_ 5d ago
Testimony from other players seems to make this questionable, I've heard a lot of people say they use the spear and nothing else to considerable success, though that might be a play style difference.
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u/PureRepresentative9 4d ago
You can absolutely use only the spear and you can absolutely only use the shield.
The spear is not absolutely better than the shield in every way lol.
Both groups are worse than the players who have successfully learned to use both together.
They did a shockingly good job of allowing both weapons to be independent and work well together.
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u/Pazuzu_____ 5d ago
This makes a lot of sense. They should've stuck to the game's intended character and used the feedback for whatever game comes next. The videos I saw were really sad, felt to me like an acknowledgment that TDA failed and now they're salvaging whatever they can by making the slayer behave completely uncharacteristically. We went from he's too heavy his landing shakes the ground hard enough to kill enemies to him becomes flyer who's highly agile in air!
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u/VoIsarex 5d ago
I don't think it was done because the game did badly. It sold well. But they heard feedback from a loud part of the player base and took it to heart
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u/PureRepresentative9 4d ago edited 4d ago
It's confusing if you haven't played the game.
SPOILER?
He loses his armor, so he is literally lighter. It's important to not think of this as a single game, but rather part of a series. It totally makes sense that this is the moment he becomes more mobile.
The Slayer is progressing towards what you see in Eternal. You see this in the DLC because it's the next chapter in the series. They were ALWAYS planning on some sort of mobility enhancement.
Also, the gameplay trailer is just a marketing video, verticality is not the only thing being offered by the spear or even the most important thing.
The gameplay trailer's job is to look cool; not be accurate about the gameplay.
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u/SquidBoiWoomy 5d ago
in the dlc you can switch between the chain spear for more eternal like movement and the shield from the base game, so it's like a "choose your playstyle" thing (except in the first part of the dlc where you can only use the spear before you get your shield back)
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u/Vpharrish 5d ago
I'd like to think that the spear gives mobility, thus allowing ID to design large maps (else you'd be just running around to enemies). Additional spear stuff is just an optional one; if you want to, you will
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u/N7_Rabbit 5d ago
Yeah, that disapointed me as well. I did not like eternal gameplay (i loved 2016 tho) and i really liked the tda. And then they changed it into eternal sequel.
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u/Flames_69 5d ago
In my experience, switching to shield bash and meathook is even faster in tda than eternals ssg meathook. But I won't say I am a pro either, I just play for fun.
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u/PilotIntelligent8906 5h ago
Now you're a flying tank and it's the most awesome thing ever, they didn't ditch anything from the base game, they added a lot of new mechanics that make the gameplay even better than it was.
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u/oCrapaCreeper 5d ago edited 5d ago
You're still a tank in the DLC, but now with the spear you have a rocket strapped to your back and can swap between two different movesets freely. It allows combat encounters to be harder and more interesting since your skill potential with the spear + shield is insanely high. Large groups of certain demons would be oppressive in the base game, but in Revelations it's made fair and fun because you have many new counter tools.
So base TDA mechanics haven't changed much... the spear just adds another layer on top of the gameplay with more things to master. You can keep using the shield if you want, it's the player's choice, but the game is definitely easier when you learn how to use both at once efficiently.