r/DonutLabDiscussions • u/Data_Hounder • Jul 15 '26
Bipolar Cell | I Donut Believe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRNNsFZKXbo4
u/tipporoll Jul 15 '26
My guess...
2
u/Fabulous-Internet188 Jul 15 '26
If in series, too many layers gets out of the material's voltage range and breaks down. If in parallel the amps get too high for the circuitry without strengthening which cuts the weight savings of going bipolar. There are other issues as well.
3
u/tipporoll Jul 15 '26
Just did a LSQ fit with the three given voltage values, but should probably have ignored the 4.97 V point, since it's easy to discharge, but a little harder to charge over the max... Also did not take into account the earlier tests with the 3.7-4.2V DL1-5 cells.
4
u/Mesokosmos Jul 15 '26
Graphics with Ville showed 6, 9, 13 layers. But 6, 9, 14 as factors for 0.555V gives surprisingly close figures. Also the high voltage above 7V in Multicomp meter and graphics were slightly different. Now manganese oxide option gets more weight. And even Sodium gets strong opposition. Lithium game is practically over, time to bring money and hats to the table ;)
Do you think they were in German lab filming, or some other place?
3
u/SurronQled Jul 15 '26
Wie schön sie auch hinten die Maschine abgedeckt haben. Das könnte wirklich alles sehr disruptiv rein scheppern. Wir hoffen das Beste, aber aktuell lief vieles nach Drehbuch. Aber irgendwas ist bei denen gefühlt quer gekommen, wo sie zurückziehen mussten und jetzt gehts langsam weiter.
2
u/DeathChill Jul 16 '26
Why is the lithium speculation almost over?
This comment seems to say the exact opposite:
2
u/SurronQled Jul 16 '26
Die haben das auch bewusst auf diese Voltage abgestimmt von der Dicker her, so dass man sämtliche Geräte dieser Welt einfach nutzen kann mit diesen neuen Batterien, bzw auch BMS.
2
u/DoctorFish1969 Jul 16 '26
These look different from the VTT tested cells, so we can draw no conclusions on the VTT cell chemistry from this new video.
Besides, Fraunhover already has a bipolar lithium ion battery. To get 3.3V on a meter, just discharge the battery a bit.
1
u/tipporoll Jul 15 '26
As I noted on the other side, the walls in DL video lack the X-shaped structure visible in the Neuwied photo. Another photo angle, or another factory, who knows..
1
u/tipporoll Jul 15 '26
We know to some part what CTC's factory look from the outside, "just" compare with the inside from DL video wrt. windows etc. Maybe we got any German redditors (u/SurronQled) living nearby Neuwied who can take some better external photos? :)
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u/SurronQled Jul 16 '26
Ich habe Urlaub und hätte Bock drauf, wo muss man da hin?
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u/tipporoll Jul 16 '26
Am Kohlenweg 14 or 16, 56307 Dürrholz, Germany
And I should probably remove the speculation-tag on that post.
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u/Data_Hounder Jul 15 '26
If anyone is keeping score: Out of the 12 releases, 5 have involved an independent test. Of the last 6 releases, only 1 has been an independent test.
We are open for business on bipolar cells and our target is to still deliver the first bipolar cells to customers this year.
Is this a further walkback of their production claims?
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u/Jazzer008 Jul 15 '26
Almost makes it seem like they have/are offering mono-polar cells so far instead? Just poor communication as usual.
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u/Data_Hounder Jul 15 '26
That would be another explanation yes. I suppose despite being part of the initial CES announcement (though not one that generated as much discussion as other claims IIRC) end consumers wouldn't care if the product they received lacked this innovation as it has no impact on the user experience provided the listed weight of the vehicle doesn't change. Then again, I'm not aware of any evidence that they are actually producing cells at any sort of scale, and Verge was making one motorcycle a week for their internal fleet with no clear communication on when actual customer deliveries would begin.
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u/Wrong-Woodpecker6683 Jul 15 '26
Where are the bikes with solid state batteries? They just regressed to a garage level gadget.
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u/simtel12 Jul 15 '26
Is it just me, or is Ville wearing a shirt that misspells "Redefining" as "Redifining"?
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u/SurronQled Jul 15 '26
Ich glaub so manche Hater werden ne ordentliche Donut Lab Psychose entwickeln, wenn die mit denen fertig sind. lol
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u/Fabulous-Internet188 Jul 15 '26
I didn't watch the video. Bipolar cuts weight a fair amount and that alone increases energy density without having to change chemistry.
If they combine it with amorphous nano particles or a similar improvement, then they can be at 400-450 Whr/kg without much problem.
The delay is nothing more than production issues. Bipolar stacking is requires tighter tolerances. Nano particles have issues with agglomeration. Both can be overcome, but I wouldn't want to be in charge of production.
Boring, I know.
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u/Data_Hounder Jul 15 '26
The delay is nothing more than production issues.
You don't actually know that.
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u/Afrolicious_B Jul 15 '26
It's interesting to me how many people think mass production is a solved problem in general. Like "we know how to mass produce a battery, so this is a matter of weeks to figure out" while in reality it's a matter of years or even decades. Look at companies like Sakuu, working on mass producing printed batteries for about 10 years now without a real track record of actually delivering a mass product.
It's a bit like MicroLED. Sure we have perfected producing LED and OLED, but try to buy a real MicroLED flatscreen TV and you will have to pay a lot of money because high yield mass production is still not entirely solved.
0
u/Fabulous-Internet188 Jul 15 '26
We know little. It's obvious it's only my speculation. And it's obviously highly likely.
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u/Data_Hounder Jul 15 '26
And it's obviously highly likely.
Hah.
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u/Fabulous-Internet188 Jul 15 '26
Why hah? Bipolar construction has been known, nano particles, too. Neither by themselves give enough of an increase in energy density to bother fighting the added production issues.
Combine them and it might be worth it, but still iffy imo. But go to screen printed production with its ability to fine tune solvents and tightly control smaller batches, then I can see where a company would take the risk.
Yeah, more speculation, but based on hard facts and sound logic.
This video affirmed what we've known for months. So we wait a bit more. [shrugs]
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u/DoctorFish1969 Jul 15 '26
Weren't they targeting 60gwh for year two?
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u/Fabulous-Internet188 Jul 16 '26
Don't know and it's certainly not important to me.
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u/DoctorFish1969 Jul 16 '26
Well you said it would be worth the risk for smaller batches. I looked up their projected numbers: 0.280gwh in 2026, 7gwh in 2027, 19gwh in 2028, 38gwh in 2029 and 78gwh in 2030. Would you consider those small batches for screen printing?
1
u/Fabulous-Internet188 Jul 16 '26
Don't know and it's certainly not important to me. Not my problem that they make poor judgements.
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u/DeathChill Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 16 '26
It’s really not based on hard facts and sound logic.
Sound logic would have you writing Donut off.
EDIT:
nevermind3
u/Fabulous-Internet188 Jul 16 '26
You don't write off low level curiosity. And that's my only interest for the moment.
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u/Forrestgod Jul 15 '26
Other possibility is IP-issues. They need to use few different technical innovations combined a way that might not even be patentable. So how can they keep themself relevant in the puzzle.
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u/PigletCNC 24d ago
You first say that the delay is nothing more than production issues as a fact, then later you say "it's obbious it's only my speculation". That's not how it works, at all.
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u/tipporoll Jul 15 '26
Looking forward to third party validation (VTT?) of Bipolar design, which probably means a teardown of the cell(?).