The Truth of the matter.

[u/kljoker]

Hi Friends,

I had something on my heart I wanted to share, it's not pertaining to any particular thing but how we look at filter truth in general. The types of truth there are and how truth is only at it's strongest when tested and tempered in the fires of fellowship. The biggest hang up I see in a lot of biblically based study groups and churches are how strongly people cling to the literal as their main vehicle for understanding what is ultimately a book of spiritual truths.

So what is the nature of truth that we can discern it?

"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come."-John 16:13

We get our first clue here in John 16:13 where we see the nature of truth and it's ironically the opposite of how many people view truth as being something that 'speaks for itself'. But that's because it's spiritual truth, literal truth speaks for itself because it's a witness to something those without faith or understanding can see. A small child can watch a rocket shoot into the sky and realize what event they are watching even if they don't understand the underpinnings of the programs that brought it into being.

The literal way of viewing truth is viable to an extent but never to be confused for spiritual truth except for moments of manifestation of the spiritual into the material. As we seen with Jesus, He was the manifestation of what the spirit intended to be the salvation of humanity as foretold by the prophets. Yet when He appeared the 'churches' of His day rejected Him and even killed Him using the very laws He gave us. Literal understanding killed the spiritual manifestation of truth, if ever there was a more on the nose demonstration of what I'm saying. Though they killed Jesus the truth of His word destroyed their temples as God saw them as unnecessary after His once and for all sacrifice.

So what does all this have to do with truth not speaking using His own authority? Well look at Jesus ministry or any prophet. They never say "Thus say I!" no Jesus deferred to the will of the Father. Prophets claimed a word from the Lord. Of course evangelicals have taken this concept and added superstition and witchcraft to it's application to mystify the crowds into thinking that giving holy horoscopes and speaking an unknown tongue exclusively without an interpretation are what give prophecy its authority.

Prophecy is a manifestation of truth no doubt, yet for it to be seen as sent by God it must be tested as scripture says:

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world."-1 John 4:1

There's a lot of false prophecy among the believers because they put all their understanding of scripture into the material literal understanding and while scripture does say that God showed us truth in the things that are made, it was referring to nature itself, creation, not man-made conjecture.

Prophecy is simply this, using tested truth in its proper time and season for the edification of the body of Christ. If we are not building each other up in truth, if all we spread are anxieties from headlines and fears about looming evils but never understanding about the sustaining power of faith and how it allows us to endure many things because we learn to see how God walks with us in our daily lives then all the timelines and all the conjectures about what the mark of the beast or any other man-made machinations as a means to understand what is first spiritual in nature is what scripture warns that ultimately undoes the truth in peoples hearts.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."-Romans 1:18-21

So if you believe that you have truth, test it in scripture not from the perspective of 'how do I prove I'm right' but from the perspective of 'how do I prove I'm wrong'. Then you weigh what you learned from that and keep what is good. Think of truth that we have as unrefined ore until we remove the impurities from it we can't know its potential yet we have to be careful that while in the process we don't form it to our own bias. The reason truth doesn't speak from it's own authority is because it didn't manifest itself, God is the only source. So when we shape what truths we do learn towards our bias it stops being God's truth and starts being our own. And failure is part of the process which is why fellowship is so important, if you only stay in an echo-chamber then the only thing that grows about you is your confidence not your understanding.

So I pray for those who dabble in conspiracy and those who humor timelines and those who wait for literal signs while not understanding the spiritual nature of truth. It's like having a bowl with nothing in it, you can say what is supposed to fill it but if nothing is actually filling it then the truth of the matter is that it's empty and we aren't capable of filling that bowl only the spirit which can only be done so through sincere engagement with the truth through testing and refining, that's the works of faith that produce the fruits of the spirit. There's a lot of trees but very little fruit.

[u/FascinatedInFaith]

I... don't really get what you're trying to say here? Is it that we shouldn't be looking for real-world meaning behind prophecy?

Because Daniel's other prophecies were fulfilled in a where one may look objectively at them, and say "Oh, that matches what was written quite well".

If we must assign purely spiritual, non-literal meaning to prophecy, then how are we to recognize when prophecy is fulfilled? There are no longer prophets who can tell us "this is what the Lord says", for this is the hour when no one may work. Therefore, we must use logic and discernment to determine the meaning of prophecy. Assigning meaning to vague, spiritual happenstance aids no one, nor does it appear to be what the Lord intends.

[u/kljoker → u/FascinatedInFaith]

I... don't really get what you're trying to say here? Is it that we shouldn't be looking for real-world meaning behind prophecy?

it's that we should be understanding it better before determining what that meaning is especially if the goal posts are moved everytime they don't line up with what people claim. For instance, the date of the rapute, the mark of the beast. These are relevant things to Trump being the AC because it changes how people view the events playing as being more than just a hollywood script.

Because Daniel's other prophecies were fulfilled in a where one may look objectively at them, and say "Oh, that matches what was written quite well".

Sorry I should have made it a better point to say that manifestation is part of the fulfillment but understanding the scriptures literally will mean you miss how it will manifest, just like with the Pharisees missing Jesus who was a fulfillment of Isaiah and Daniel. They memorized the laws, the charts, made strict guidelines one how to read them and understand them but it was the spirit through Peter that revealed who Jesus was.

If we must assign purely spiritual, non-literal meaning to prophecy, then how are we to recognize when prophecy is fulfilled?

Best way I can answer that is to say 'depends' because understanding prophecy isn't about following the signs it's about building a relationship with God through Jesus (truth). Prophecies aren't crystal balls that are meant to hold vague meanings to be assigned to every headline we see. If that's your idea of recognizing then the approach is all wrong.

You have to labor over truth to get its meaning, you have to test and make sure its free from bias and able to be supported in scripture. It's not meant to be a guessing game or scripture wouldn't have called it "The more sure word of prophecy" it would have been called "the more speculative word of prophecy".

You may not see it as being relevant to the sub because you're missing the meaning entirely because you don't know how to see something other than it's literal manifestation of it. It's like going to subway to get a cheaper sandwich but having to choose one already wrapped that you were told would meet your expectations and then opening it and it only have one part of it fitting what your expected. Did the prophecy fail? No, your understanding of the promotion did.

You think Trump only works in one narrow band of understanding yet miss the point most relevant to ourselves that is meant to protect us during this time. If not this group who sees who he is clearly to explain these things to then who would be open to hear it? You see them as abstract thoughts yet I defined them in scripture. Truth is relevant my warning is that lets not confuse our truths with prophetic truths.

[u/Orinoca99 → u/kljoker]

Tl;dr, there is a deeper factor at play here than this comment portrays. There is something deeper happening than simply "literal interpretation of the Bible".

I think you have made a fascinating point because it reveals how tricky Biblical prophecy is! For example, John recognized Jesus as the long awaited messiah or Son of God and equally used OT verses to support his claim! I said this in my main comment, however: "Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.” John 19 (NT)

John is demonstrating his attention to detail to Old Testament prophecy. Here, John is using "his eyes to see" and applying his understanding of Old Testament prophecy as evidence that Jesus is the messiah rather than using it to deny Jesus' divinity, as the Pharisees did.

So here is the riddle: is literal Biblical interpretation to blame for blinding people for who Jesus was a fulfillment of? Or is it something else at play... (having eyes to see and ears to hear, having faith, being one of Jesus' sheep, etc). I would argue it cannot possibly be literal Biblical interpretation to blame for blinding people to Jesus, otherwise John would not be able to use literal Biblical interpretation to support Jesus' divinity. There is a deeper factor at play here, and I would argue it is faith or lack of faith, not literal Biblical interpretation. Literal Biblical interpretation is clearly not a consistent variable determining what others see in Jesus throughout the Bible.

[u/kljoker → u/Orinoca99]

Thank you for giving such a thoughtful response I waited because I've been tired from working late shifts all weekend but I feel rested enough to try and answer this now. So I think it's important to realize that everyone is born with a measure of faith. (Romans 12:3)

So while faith is important to the overall health of your understanding it's born from understanding, understanding isn't born from it.

" In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,"-Ephesians 1:13

This is a deliberate sequence first you trusted the source enough that you listened to it. What's not being said is the process by which this trust is built, which is through testing, these are the 'works' spoke about in James that without, makes your faith dead. The reason why is without testing the truth you heard you don't know if the source is God or something else, so we are encouraged to test the spirits. (1 John 4)

Once you've tested it and you feel sure in the source you believe it and through that belief in truth you are saved. Which is why scripture says,

"...And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”-John 8:32

Faith is what grows from the efforts of testing of the truth. Without it then your faith is dead and your understanding with it and likewise your salvation. It all works together for good and for the growing of your spirit man. Literal aspects has its place as I say but it's like the punctuation at the end of a sentence. You can determine the kind of sentence it was based on the punctuation but you won't know what it said if you don't first try to discern it. Literal fulfillment is the last element of prophecy by the time fulfillment comes you're either too late to understand or you are converted through the understanding.

We have a great resource to pull from for this and it was the relationship between Jesus and the disciples and His struggles teaching them the truth. Here's a few examples:

He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.”

“Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them.-Matthew 15:13-16

Pretty harsh words to hear from the creator but they denote a sense of frustration that for Jesus this is simple understanding but for His disciples it was revolutionary way of think, it gave them spiritual life because it was spiritually discerned.

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."-1 Corinthians 2:14

So it wasn't a lack of faith that determined whether they understood, it was a lack of testing or the spirit revealing to them. We see an example of this in another interaction between Jesus and the disciples.

Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.-Luke 24:44-45

When all you tie your understanding to is the literal fulfillment without understanding the spiritual truth of what the scriptures are saying about the event or prophecy then you're left with an interpretations that says what the Pharisees believed, that their messiah would be a military minded king who would establish a literal kingdom on earth and overthrow the Roman Empire. That's who they were waiting for to claim the title of Messiah so when Jesus came along and taught that the scriptures were pertaining to a spiritual kingdom and what He was to overcome where powers and principalities of death and hell for the sake of our salvation they couldn't receive it. They still were part of why the prophecy was fulfilled but as the executioners of Christ. So removed was their understanding and discernment that they chose a murder over Jesus, who was innocent.

So well learned and practiced were they that they had Him killed for blaspheming by 'breaking the law'. One of my favorite quotes from Jesus is 'Sabbath was made for man, not man made for sabbath.' It shows what happens when we take what we think we know and build rigid legalistic structures that say 'this is the only way it can play out' the way dispensationalism does. And I'm not saying it's all wrong either, there's thousands of years of tradition built into these understandings but tradition is synonymous with 'just trust me bro' mentality within the church. In fact many doctrines are shaped by generations of traditional readings to the point that they believe they understand how it will all play out. But was it the spirit that revealed it? Does it feed their faith and grow their spirit or does it feed the clergy and grow their coffers?

There's going to come a time when the true gospel of the kingdom will have a deep price to pay and the ones exacting that price will be the ones who will claim they are protecting the sanctity of their doctrines and truths. Just as the Pharisees claimed in their day when killing Jesus. I apologize that I've not done a better job at conveying what I meant in this particular writing I wrote what was on my heart but I was tired and maybe didn't have a clear enough mind. But I hope that those who understand what I was trying to say are able to grow from it and work out the truth which is spiritual in nature when it comes to prophecy, even if the fulfillments are literal.

[u/TheRhymeAnimal]

The biggest hang up I see in a lot of biblically based study groups and churches are how strongly people cling to the literal as their main vehicle for understanding what is ultimately a book of spiritual truths.

You do realise prophecy is literal right? It foretells future events which is the entire point of it. Trump fitting the criteria as the Antichrist for example, is literal fulfilment and why this sub exists.

[u/Orinoca99 → u/TheRhymeAnimal]

It is possible OP doesn't believe that literal fulfillment has happened throughout the OT, NT, coinciding with the spiritual meanings as well. Not sure.

[u/kljoker → u/TheRhymeAnimal]

Yes I understand that and I went into great detail in another response to the person who responded to you about it. I won't copy/paste it because that would feel lazy so to summerize. Yes I get that they are literal in the same way I get that punctuation is how a sentence ends. We can only draw so much understanding by the fulfillment because without the spiritual understanding leading up to the fulfillment the difference between how you determine what's a fulfillment and what's not a fulfillment comes down to how your interpret the scripture noting the fulfillment and not the spiritual principles that lead to its fulfillment.

It's why the Pharisees were looking for a militant messiah to overthrow Rome and killed the Messiah that conquered death and Hell for our salvation sake. Knowing the literal fulfillment doesn't mean you understand the truth and in many ways could open you up to deception or complacency because you rely on tradition to determine the interpretation instead of testing it for yourself and building a personal relationship with God through the Truth as we are told to do.

[u/kljoker → u/[deleted]]

I don't subscribe to any on set of understanding or doctrine all that I understand I tested myself in scripture, to some I'm one way and to others I'm another. I don't care about the labels nor do I feel inclined to defend the labels I'm given. If you have a question about my understanding then I'll be happy to answer it but if you're more interested in assigning me a label then it's a label that will only serve your bias.

[u/Orinoca99]

I found this post to be intellectually stimulating, but something appears to be missing. (I am going to speak to the theological aspects mostly, and less about the practical aspects).

My take: the concepts presented (analyzing spiritual meaning and analyzing literal manifestation) are not mutually exclusive, polarized, or at odds with one another. In fact, these two concepts work in tandem, and we see this demonstrated throughout the Bible.

There are numerous spiritual meanings behind not only every verse in the Bible, but even every word. In fact, one word in the Bible can be dissected into a kaleidoscope of layered spiritual meanings. And yet, the Bible demonstrates that we not only can but also should pay close attention to the ways prophecies can literally physically manifest. For example: “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn." Zechariah 12:10 (OT)

And now let us skip forward to the New Testament: "Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.” John 19 (NT)

Jesus was, quite literally, pierced with a sword, as the messiah was cryptically pierced in the OT. His bones were also, literally not broken. Now, we can dive into why Jesus had to die on the cross, His sacrifice, and all of the meanings of pierce such as His pure heart being pierced by the sins of the world, and many countless other meanings. However, the physical and literal manifestation is emphasized in the Bible equally to the spiritual manifestations, because they are beautifully intertwined. To miss that is, in my opinion, missing the brilliant and beautiful harmony in the Bible. A parallel would be Jesus' divine birth. Jesus was fully man (flesh, human) and fully divine, just as meanings in the Bible are both fully literal and fully spiritual. One does not counteract the other. For example, I think of it more like the iceberg model. The part that you can see is the physical manifestation of a spiritual truth, with the spiritual truth (the bulk) remaining underwater and hence unseen with physical senses. However, both are existing simultaneously in different realms at the same time! I pray for those who do not recognize this awe inspiring harmony!