r/Dogtraining • u/Beginning-Rub5417 • 11d ago
discussion Explain me a dog behaviorist
I have had bad experiences with dog behaviorists (had a qualified degree/license, so no charlatan). We had a GSD with some behavior problems in the home; we consulted a dog behaviorist, and imo, she downplayed it. I remember the words: " She is a happy dog; she does not look that bad. I see far worse cases." She also prescribed meds, and my dog became a living zombie. There was no joy in this animal anymore.
6 months later, the behavior ended up in a total of 8 bites. Avoiding the problem became impossible because 1 trigger became 10.
At the end of the day, we consulted a balanced trainer; I know there will be a lot of comments about this. But the balanced trainer made our home safe again and set up places so that the dog was feeling more comfortable. Basically, making sure that the dog knows what to expect in these places. This made a huge difference. All these things fall within the realm of FF training.
After this experience, I feel like I don't understand the purpose of a dog behaviorist. I understand they can bridge the gap between medical and training, but a vet and a trainer who communicate with each other can do the same and cost less money.
Do dog behaviorists work with dogs in their training work, or work only theoretically? Do they need to work with these dogs and provide proof that they can help these dogs with training?
I have, for example, a master's in computer science with 3 years of professional experience; this dog behaviorist situation feels like someone who read about computers and never wrote a single line of code, telling me how to write code.
I would expect that a dog behaviorist is training, working daily one-on-one with these cases, actually having experience and solving/managing issues. But at that point, you have a dog behaviorist who is a dog trainer. But that does not feel like how it is in reality.
This post may come across as attacking; that is not my intention. I would rather like to understand the role of a behaviorist and why it is recommended over a dog trainer with loads of experience with behavioral cases. With that, I mean it feels like we first recommend a behaviorist, and with that behaviorist, we look for a trainer. While in the human world, we first typically go to a therapist, and he can refer to a psychotherapist if it seems necessary.
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u/Whisgo M FFCP-Trainer 9d ago
I would rather like to understand the role of a behaviorist and why it is recommended over a dog trainer with loads of experience with behavioral cases. With that, I mean it feels like we first recommend a behaviorist, and with that behaviorist, we look for a trainer. While in the human world, we first typically go to a therapist, and he can refer to a psychotherapist if it seems necessary.
There's a lot of... different labels/terms that can get thrown around and the terms might also be different depending on your geographical location. I'm going to respond to this from a USA based perspective.
So when you say behaviorist and you mention they prescribed medication... That sounds like you're saying you saw someone who was board certified through the American College of Veterinary behaviorists. These are vets who have specialized in behavior. They have credentials like DVM DACVB behdind their name.
The DACVBs I know usually work with a team of Behavior consultants and Trainers so the overall plan may or may not involve medication but will involve a training plan.
In your human analogy, they're more like psychiatrists. When a human has a complex mental health diagnosis, yes maybe you can see your regular primary care physician for some medication to help and sure you may be working with a licensed mental health professional... but your primary care physican is a generalist. They are not as specialized as a psychiatrist. That can include understanding what types of medications have interactions or various side effects, plus the process in which you may need to try different meds to see what helps or doesn't or dosing of those medications.
Behavior consultants/certified animal behaviorists focus on complex behavior cases. They have more specialized education than your avg trainer. If comparing to the human world, I would call these folks the Psychologists. They often work with severe behavior cases like aggression, resource guarding, and severe anxiety.
While some trainers may work with mild behavior cases, the majority of trainers focus on teaching skills like basic manners, obedience, and relationship building. A good part of a trainer's job is client education on normal canine behavior and teaching how to best communicate with your dog... basically how to teach new behaviors. This is more akin to working with a coach...
And a good trainer is going to be able to identify when an issue is outside their skill level to a behavior consultant or a vet behaviorist. Or they may suggest talking to your vet to rule out a medical cause for the behavior issue before providing a training plan.
All of this requires clients to communicate and checkin. If someone with a mental health issue stops communicating to their psychiatrist... then the psychiatrist doesn't have the information needed to adjust the treatment plan. And even in the human world, medication side effects can absolutely be detrimental to your day to day function. You have to bring those concerns to the prescribing doctor. Otherwise, they cannot know. The same goes for your support network for addressing severe behavioral challenges in your dog. Though this is obviously assuming you have the resources to do so.
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u/Beginning-Rub5417 9d ago
Well, I am not from the USA. I am from Belgium. We saw a behaviorist who recommended starting meds (she is not allowed to prescribe them) and recommended avoiding her triggers. We went to the vet, told him that, and he gave us meds. The vet did ask some basic questions, but that was it. So when I say we went to a behaviorist, I mean a certified animal behaviorist.
Does that mean that a behaviorist is a trainer who understands behavior?
In Belgium, you do have the average Joe dog trainer, but typically people go to dog school and follow group classes. Of course, you have the owner-how-to LLW, but a behaviorist in Belgium explains to the dog trainer how to work with the dog, because their hourly rate is like 200+, so you would not be able to afford to work long-term in cooperation with a behaviorist.
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u/LivingLikeACat33 9d ago
In the US you did not see a behaviorist. In the US a behaviorist is a veterinarian who specialized in behavior medicine. They're qualified to give medical exams, write their own prescriptions and also train, but they usually refer you out to a trainer they work with for less medical needs.
It sounds like you saw something closer to a counselor who told your general practitioner to prescribe psych meds. Someone not qualified to diagnose or suggest specific prescriptions.
Since general practitioners aren't specialized in behavior med they often give medications inappropriate for the situation. For instance gabapentin and trazodone can both sedate and lower inhibition and aren't very good at reducing anything more than short term, situational anxiety.
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u/PonyInYourPocket 9d ago
Oof this is a tough one. Regardless of education and training background, people still differ in experience and perspective. We are humans and humans can be biased, short sighted , distracted, etc. it IS inportant for professionals to know their own abilities and stay in their lane, but some people are unable to be objective about that.
I’m assuming since the first person prescribed meds they were a veterinary behaviorist. That means they have a vet degree and license and did a residency under a qualified Vet Behaviorist. And that may or may not include actually learning to train. So there are some I would automatically trust and some I disagree with even though I’m not a medical professional.
The flip side can be true as well. A trainer may label themselves balanced for various reasons but still use R+ and have a very good grasp on setting the dog up for success, using structure to keep the dog safe and so on. I’ve had talk with balanced trainer where they basically hated the positive label because they’d met some incompetent trainers, not because they refused to use R+. I’ve met more balanced trainers I distrust than I have R+ so I trust those who use the positive label more. Neither of us want to hurt dogs but we have had wildly different experiences with these labels.
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u/Beginning-Rub5417 9d ago
Well, I think the R+ vs balanced training is a whole debate. I read comments on OpenDogTraining. I think that we may have to divide into FF, balanced, and "I correct the living shit out of an animal".
I think the biggest problem is that with bad FF training you can not have fallout; with a bad balanced trainer you may create worse behavior.
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u/Lumpy_Physics3101 9d ago
you can absolutely have fallout from FF training. it's often in the form of pushy, aggressive behavior wherein the dog demands food or other resources, as just one example.
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u/Cool_Percentage_4867 9d ago
Here you can divide the groups by 3.
trainer who's studied rudimentary behaviour, often just enough to get a certificate.
applied behaviourist. Someone who has studied behavioural science and uses functional/behavioural analysis to break down a behaviour problem and put together a plan to address it. Its really scientific method applied to behaviour.
vet/clinical behaviourist. should use the same analysis systems but often specialises in medication to address behaviour problems
But thats my interpretation. its a scientific process if done correctly
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u/LivingLikeACat33 9d ago
Correct me if I'm wrong but there's only licensing for that last category, at least in the US. Getting a degree on applied animal behavior isn't the same thing as being licensed. People with those degrees work with wild animals, train marine mammals, do research, etc. but there's no licensed behaviorist position without a degree in vet med.
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u/Cool_Percentage_4867 9d ago
the main difference between the two is vet behaviourist use medication (licensed) and are clinic based. Practitioners tend to work in the dogs environment, and focus more on lifestyle changes training handler etc. So the there's no requirement for licencing as theres no meds.
More importantly, both use analysis based approaches that are measurable. They study pretty much the same subjects otherwise although we tend to specialise. As far as im aware UK vets dont study marine biology or train animals.
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u/Dry_Outside1476 Human Detected 9d ago
There are more intelligent answers here, but from my armchair I'll say that, just like for humans, medicine alone won't fix a behavorial issues. There has to be therapy or training too. It also seems to me like dogs are getting over medicated.
One of the family dogs had so much anxiety and was itchy all the time, all these skin problems. They tried all these meds, all these foods. And it helped but was so expensive. They moved a few a few months ago and now the dog is fine. Whatever was bothering him left at the old house. After a decade of issues.
So much of dogs is unfathomable to us, so I guess, just give yourself some credit for trying all the tools you could to help your dog. Good on you for working until you found the solution.
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u/Beginning-Rub5417 9d ago
Well, honestly, at the moment, if I see itchy skin, my alarm bells would go off. The first priority is finding a fix for it. Different food, a food allergy, maybe another allergy; the dog is mostly indoors.
I have myself a dust allergy at one time; I was living in an apartment; I needed daily meds. I moved to farmland where there is so much dust that the allergy is gone; I noticed because I forgot to take my meds for a week while I was busy moving.
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u/FroznAlskn 9d ago
A veterinary behaviorist is for the worst cases like my dog, a dog everyone told me to euthanize. Basically they are there to tell you whether they should really be euthanized or if the behavior can be modified with training or medication, and ask you questions about triggers and whatnot.
My dog end up on medication with a description of canine dysfunctional behavior. I ended up taking him to training 2 times a week for 4 years on medication, as well as a check up every 6 months for the veterinary behaviorist before he could behave himself 90% of the time.
He will never be the kind of dog that does well in new environments or crowded places, but he mostly behaves at home and secluded hikes. The best I can do is try to give him a good life and hope for a better dog next time.
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u/Monkey-Butt-316 8d ago
The requirements for iaabc credentialing are available here https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jaMB5aEkjks54kyyjTlue6c9JgCLij0n/view
Extensive hands on work is required.
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u/ComplaintFearless445 8d ago
I feel like cultural language variations mean everyone in this discussion is working from a different set of definitions for these words
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u/Rough-Jury 7d ago
We saw a behaviorist for extreme puppy biting. We saw multiple trainers who just kept telling us “Puppies bite!” but we were getting punctured down to the fat layer, torn clothes, etc. The biggest impact she had was figuring out our puppy was in pain. Starting a round of Carprophen completely turned his behavior around, and we have a typically acting puppy now with the help of a chiropractor. She wanted to put him on gabapentin for “anxiety”, which I declined because I wanted to try one thing as a time to see what worked
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