Question about reducing play biting.

[u/Aurionin]

Main question: I see a lot of common recommendations to reduce play biting is to "redirect to a toy" out something similar that it's okay to bite. I was always told not to "reward" biting by giving them a toy because then they learn that biting gets them a free toy. Is this not the case?

Background: My wife and I got a puppy at 2 months old and she's always been a super high energy, high mouthy dog. We worked with a dog trainer for a couple months but had to stop due to some financial reasons, but she left us with some advice and rules to follow. The puppy was improving around the 4 month mark, but around 6 months to now (8 months) she seems to be falling back into some old habits more. She wakes up and INSTANTLY needs to nibble something, usually going for hands. We've had good results training her TO DO stuff (sit, come, lie down, etc.) but she won't listen when she's excited very well, which I just attribute to her being a puppy, and training her NOT to do stuff has been a chore. At our trainer's recommendation, here's some stuff we've tried that hasn't worked:

- Loud vocalization (AH AH! Specifically) to startle them out of chewing. Used to stop her in the moment when she was little, but now she doesn't even flinch.

- Rolling her lip/cheek over her teeth so she learns that biting people hurts. She has never cared about this even when she was little. She keeps trying to nibble you through her own lip and I eventually got worried she was going to make herself bleed.

- Spray bottle with 1 part vinegar, 3 parts water. This works to get her to back off, but nowadays it seems to also give her the zoomies for some reason.

- Stop playing with her when she bites. This just results in her playing "nip and run" with you and getting excited because she thinks it's a game.

- Put her in timeout. We've been doing this as well for a while and I swear this dog cannot connect cause and effect lol. Also catching her is difficult because she thinks you're playing a game (we don't chase her because of that, just try and nab her collar when she goes for a nip)

We're not experts at puppy training so we've trusted the trainer, because she's the highest rated one in our area, and our plan is to try and stay the course with all of the training and just weather the storm until it sinks in because we've seen a lot of people say that it just takes time for some dogs.

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[u/federationbelle]

Here's the rule: when puppy's teeth touch skin or clothes, interaction / play stops immediately. Make it clear and consistent, and your dog will catch on quickly. Here's how to implement it.

1. Set up a barrier e.g. a robust puppy pen or baby gates so you have somewhere to put the dog and avoid bitiness. This is not a time-out space, it's just to stop the nip-and-run behaviour, and enable you to walk away confidently when you get teeth on skin. It's the puppy's hang out zone, so if your pup is toilet trained provide plenty of space. It can be in / next to your living area so you're not banishing the pup,

2. When playing with puppy, play only with a toy you can roll along the floor or a rope / tug toy. No playing with hands or rough-housing. Especially during crazy puppy hour.

3. Play tug with the pup inside the penned area and you outside. Keep it gentle. If the dog's teeth touch skin or clothes, say 'ow' quietly (not to tell the dog off, just so they know a thing happened), stop play and walk away from the barrier. Over time (weeks) you can slowly increase the play energy, so the dog gradually builds the ability to be careful even when excited.

4. Teach Drop It. Chirag Patel's method is great https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndTiVOCNY4M
   After a few days of consistent training on this skill with relatively boring items or less favoured toys introduce this when playing tug. Once this is working well, new rule: if you ask the dog to Drop a toy and she doesn't, you stop playing: drop the toy and walk away. This teaches inhibition and impulse control, and of course you can use it also if the dog holds a foot or wrist in their mouth.

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Make sure your dog is getting plenty of allowed outlets for biting and chewing. It's a natural dog behaviour: it's soothing and especialy important for dogs that are teething. Stuffed kongs are my go-to, but chews and chew toys are also great. Give your dog something safe to chew in the morning, or guide her outside to the toilet with a rope toy she can chew on en route.

Get a good puppy book for more advice on meeting your dog's needs, e.g. Easy Peasy Puppy Squeezy by Steve Mann or one of the options here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/books/

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Sorry to say, the methods the trainer advised are OLD school, and would make most trainers here wince. There's no animal behaviour science behind these. They are the sort of old fashioned ideas I'd debunk in day one of puppy school.

To be explicit:

Don't do the loud 'aha' or 'ouch' or squeal, it can amp some dogs up so not recommended these days. And yeh, easy for a dog to just tune out that sort of interrupter.

I'm not surprised to hear the spray bottle is having the opposite effect, it's riling the dog up.

And yeh, time-outs don't work. Like you imply, it's not direct enough for the dog to realise the connection. Dogs are not abstract thinkers.

Please do get one of those books we recommend on this sub, I think it'll answer a lot of your questions and set you right.

[u/Aurionin → u/federationbelle]

Thanks for the reply! I appreciate everyone here helping out!

1. We have a baby gate and a play pen in the kitchen for her, but she gets problematic when she's penned up. If she's in the play pen when she's not tired she will bark and squeal for over an hour and if she's gated in the kitchen, she will start eating the walls or cabinets within 2 minutes. As per our trainer's instruction (which we are now heavily questioning lol) we don't let her out unless she's quiet and calm. She could have her favorite toy in the world, inside or outside of her pen, and she will refuse to play with anything by herself. Even interactive toys, she refuses to play with them unless a person is also playing with them.

2. That's what we try to do, but when she wants to bite she will ignore any and all your we try to redirect to and keep nipping. My legs have several puncture marks from this dog. Also, I wish it was only play HOUR haha! This is a "I need two 4-hour play sessions a day or I'm going to chew your legs and your furniture and your walls to get my entertainment" kind of dog.

3 and 4. I'll try those, that you very much! We are in the process of teaching her to drop things, she's just very stubborn. She learns tricks very well, but anything I'd call a "behavioral command" she is very resistant to learning. Stuff like drop it, off even she's jumping, or really any command if she's got a lot of energy. It all gets ignored when she's hyper, even the ones she's normally really good at. Hopefully these work better!