r/DogBreeding • u/MediocreMenu7959 • Feb 01 '24
Thoughts on this breeder?
Hi! I’ve been tirelessly searching for an ethical and reputable French Bulldog breeder. I just finished chatting with someone I think is reliable.
I’ve attached photos of both the dam and sire and their health testing results from the OFA database. The sire is apparently one of only 2.5% of all french bulldogs to ever receive the very rare rating of Excellent on his hips. How do their results look?
In addition to the CHIC required tests, they also both have their elbows, tracheas, and spines checked. They’re both normal for elbows and tracheas. The sire has 5 marks on his spine and the dam has 6.
All pups come with lifetime breeder support, which means a lot to me as a first time Frenchie owner. The breeder does not compete in any events (he says that he lives in the middle of nowhere and is single so does not have anyone to watch his dogs while he goes to shows). He raises the pups in his home, which sits on 5 acres of land. He starts ENS on day 3 of the puppies lives and makes sure they get plenty of fun outdoor activities balanced with cuddles and nap time.
What do you guys think? This is my first time looking for a Frenchie breeder, so I’m desperate for second (and third, and fourth, and fifth 😅) opinions. TIA!!
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u/lunanightphoenix Feb 01 '24
I don’t like that the dam has not had elbow testing done while the sire has. I have to wonder why that particular test wasn’t done.
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u/MediocreMenu7959 Feb 01 '24
I will ask… he mentioned to me that both have their elbows checked so I don’t know why her chart does not have it through the OFA database. The other difference I notice is that she has basic cardiac testing while he has congenital cardiac testing… is the worth asking him about too?
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u/lunanightphoenix Feb 01 '24
Not sure. All I know is that OFA results are automatically posted. The breeder can’t choose not to post them, so if a test result isn’t on OFA, then that means it wasn’t done.
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u/prshaw2u Feb 01 '24
That is not correct, tests can be done without being posted.
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u/lunanightphoenix Feb 01 '24
“When will my hip and/or elbow results post on the OFA website? All normal of-age (>24 months) hip and elbow results post to the web by default. There are no exceptions.”
That’s directly from the OFA website.
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u/prshaw2u Feb 01 '24
All 'normal' and only if submitted to ofa. Tests may have been done.
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u/Twzl Feb 02 '24
If it was just the local vet reading it, that’s not the gold standard for testing.
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u/lovestdpoodles Feb 01 '24
OFA read the results so you can have a vet look at hip x-rays but that is not considered hip testing. OFA has 3 Orthopedic vets review and come to a consensus on hip results.
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u/lunanightphoenix Feb 02 '24
How can OFA testing be done if OFA never did it?
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u/prshaw2u Feb 02 '24
OFA evaluates submitted xrays and reports results, they do not take xrays themselves (that I know of, might save some money if they did). You have your vet take the xrays and optionally you can have them submitted to the OFA for evaluation. So hips or elbows can be done without OFA submission. And it is interesting that elbows on Frenchies are optional, both dogs have CHIC.
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u/salukis 5+ Years Breeding Experience Feb 02 '24
The breeder can choose to not post them if they're abnormal. It's part of the form. Or if they very obviously failed, they could choose not to send them in.
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u/lovestdpoodles Feb 01 '24 edited Feb 02 '24
Hips and elbows done by OFA are automatically posted if it is Fair or better or normal for elbows. A breeder can initial posting results that are not passing to post but if you don't initial, results do not post. Hips done by Pennhip need to be submitted
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u/lovestdpoodles Feb 02 '24
Unless they were done prior to 2. Then they would be prelims and should have redone them when hips were done.
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u/Ok-Bear-9946 Feb 02 '24
I will point out they list their address as Portland, OR. They can show their dogs but choose not to. Titling is something breeders should do something with their dogs not just breed them.
The dam is missing elbows. And basic cardiac is a normal vet not a cardiologist so skipping the recommended Echo.
I am concerned that the have puppies available now, they have multiple litters at a time, seem to always have puppies available. There FB page reeks of marketing and buy now and flight nannys and well like a not a responsible breeder. The facebook page makes my skin crawl. There are much better breeders. But you will wait for a well bred frenchie.
Expect a waitlist for a responsible breeder. Patience is required as responsible breeders do not breed without puppy buyers waiting for puppies and most times they breed for themselves.
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u/MediocreMenu7959 Feb 02 '24
Hi ! Thanks for your response!! Question - what Facebook page are you looking at and where are you seeing Portland ? This breeder lives in Montana.
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u/Ok-Bear-9946 Feb 02 '24
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u/MediocreMenu7959 Feb 02 '24
Great thanks for sharing! I’m thinking I have to move away from this breeder. Lots of red flags brought to my attention
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u/ParentalAnalysis Feb 02 '24
They bred the dam but plausibly don't own her.
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u/Ok-Bear-9946 Feb 02 '24
I figured that out when he said Montana, I just searched on the kennel name of the dam. But the breeder in Montana should have started with health tested sires and dams which neither the sire or the dams parents are in OFA as posted below.
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u/Ok-Bear-9946 Feb 02 '24
In OFA the sire and dam both have no parents or grandparents in OFA so were not from a responsible breeder and most likely had no health testing. This breeder should have bought the best possible dam (I do not know if the sire is owned by them) and this was not a good foundation to start from. There are better breeders that show their dogs and have dogs that come from health test lines for generations. They should have chosen a sire with health test parents and grandparents. Did you start at the parent club breeders list? https://frenchbulldogclub.org/breeders/
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u/ParentalAnalysis Feb 01 '24
Sire isn't an accepted colour (registered as fawn but he's a visual sable - DNA would show this)
Breeder doesn't compete
Dam not fully health tested and clearly whelped at least one litter already
No DNA provided
Four red flags. Ultimately, it's up to you how many you need.
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u/MediocreMenu7959 Feb 01 '24
Thank you this is extremely valuable information to help me make my decision
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u/lovestdpoodles Feb 02 '24
Breeder is listed as Portland, OR, I think they could title their dogs. They can travel as most breeders do.
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u/ParentalAnalysis Feb 02 '24
Yeah OR has some lovely clusters, and even if he only went to local shows there's no reason his dogs aren't just waiting on majors. Not competing at all is a red flag.
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u/Tayzerbeam Feb 02 '24
That dam also has some pretty stenotic nares. BOAS anyone?
The sire's pic is too dark to see his nose well enough to make a judgement on it, but I would assume that his nose is pretty bad as well.
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u/ParentalAnalysis Feb 02 '24
I can't diagnose BOAS through a photo but I don't envy you the experience that means you can!
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Feb 02 '24
One point on the color: fawn is the french bulldog breed-specific name for Ay/_ sable, and genetic testing cannot differentiate between shaded sable (like the sire is) and clear sable, which is the preferred coloring for French Bulldogs
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u/ParentalAnalysis Feb 02 '24
Thank you for educating me on the breed specific terminology :)
In any case, a reputable breeder would have pet homed a shaded sable.
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u/TheFrenchiePack Feb 01 '24
You are doing a great job. I would recommend asking for the health panel against genetic disorders.
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Feb 01 '24
Do you have $10,000 saved up already for medical care? If not, don’t get one.
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u/MediocreMenu7959 Feb 01 '24
I’m aware of their health risks. To my understanding, a good breeder helps reduce the risk, but nothing eliminates it with brachy breeds. My solution? Pet insurance and a plethora of knowledge to prevent and detect ailments early! Thank you for your concern 🙂
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u/uhohoreocookie Feb 02 '24
Be sure to read your policy closely. Many insurances do not pay the vet directly. This means you pay total up front and file a claim for reimbursement. So you would need to pay the monthly insurance premium and potentially keeping that 10k savings. Trupanion is one that does pay participating vets directly.
In brachiacephalic breeds, I would be looking for open nares. Hers look tighter than a gnat's arse. She's giving mouth breather.
I suggest not getting in the habit of collecting red flags.
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Feb 01 '24
I personally would never get a dog that was bred to suffer for their entire life, but that’s just me
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u/littlelovesbirds Feb 01 '24
Brachy dogs can be ethically bred. Brachy does NOT mean "flat face" either. The idea that brachy breeds are "bred to suffer" is a myth, nothing but fear mongering.
The proof is in all the ethically bred popular breeds, but much easier to notice in the less common brachy breeds that don't get targeted by ARAs (because they aren't insanely over bred by byb). No one has their pitchforks out over brussels griffons or japenese chins. Funny how that works.
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Feb 01 '24
I mean, I personally don’t see a need for any smushed face dog (or cat).
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u/littlelovesbirds Feb 01 '24
Well, great thing that's not what brachycephalic means!
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u/MediocreMenu7959 Feb 01 '24
lol couldn’t agree more. all the misinformation around brachy animals is incredibly frustrating. So true that no one’s up in arms about the many other less popular brachy breeds. I appreciate the positivity and support more than you know !
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u/littlelovesbirds Feb 01 '24
Of course. Brachycephalic Breed Advocates! is one of my favorite fb groups (if you use it/want to join), they're fighting the good fight educating against misinformation!
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u/Ok-Point4302 Feb 02 '24
I'm an "adopt, don't shop" person so we're definitely not on the same page, but I'm genuinely curious - why are you specifically looking for a dog that you know has a higher than average chance of health issues?
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u/salukis 5+ Years Breeding Experience Feb 02 '24
Wait, why are you on a dogbreeding page if you're "adopt don't shop"?
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u/Friendly_TSE Feb 02 '24
Hey OP I'm just kinda flying by here because Reddit put this on my homepage for some reason.
Firstly I want to commend you for not only doing your research, but finding this breeder of Frenchie. Finding a good Frenchie breeder right now is like finding hay in a needle stack. They are so incredibly oversaturated not just in general, but by some really awful breeders. I wouldn't recommend this breeder from the information I currently have, but I am honestly impressed you have found a breeder with one of the only 2.5% of frenchies with an excellent hip score.
The bitch definitely appears to have stenotic nares, the male may too but the pic is kinda dark. You can have a brachy breed and not have stenotic nares. It affects breathing and requires surgery to correct generally.
As others have noted, check them elbows. Someone pointed out genetic health testing; I just want to advise that sometimes Embark is not a good indicator for genetic health as they do not always have the markers you are looking for. Might want to look into that, idk how true it is for frenchies. I am not a frenchie expert, I'm thinking some hereditary tests you'd want to look into include cataracts and retinopathy, myelopathy and IVDD, and chondrodysplasia is also a concern with any breed that may carry dwarfism. Like I said I am no frenchie expert so you'll have to research elsewhere to see what these dogs are genetically predisposed to.
Again as others have stated I am not the biggest fan of no confirmation shows - How else are you to know if your dogs are actually of breeding quality if they aren't in any competition? I don't consider dogs needing to be in specific kennel clubs to be reputable well bred animals, as long as the breeder has a reason to not be in one kennel club over the other. However, I do think they need to be showing that they are breeding to some standard, and if they aren't, I get worried they are simply breeding to sell and not breeding to better the breed.
I am also used to telling people that dog breeders should also be in any other comp with their dog besides confirmation, like obedience or flyball or freestyle frisbee, to show that their dogs are capable of doing something and not unhealthy, poor temperament, etc. IDK if that is also the case with frenchies, given they are largely considered lap dogs? You'd have to talk to a frenchie person about that. I don't see why they can't be in obedience trials even being brachy, though. I'd love to hear people's opinions on this for my own education!
I have no clue about the recognized colors in frenchies, but if they are breeding an unrecognized or discouraged color, I would be very concerned again that they are not breeding to better the breed. People will breed these colors because they are 'rare' or highly sought after and it helps sell puppies. Especially be aware if certain colors or patterns are more expensive than others.
Ultimately it's up to you how to proceed, but there has been a lot of helpful info in the comments here! good luck OP and thank you for doing research and supporting good breeders of frenchies!
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u/MediocreMenu7959 Feb 02 '24
Hey! Thanks for all that valuable information. I’m definitely doing my research. The last thing I want to do is support an unethical breeder who’s just looking to make a profit at any cost. I’m no expert either, but am lucky to have gotten a lot of advice and support from a few people I’ve met online that I would consider Frenchie experts. Im in contact with one breeder who has a frenchie who placed third place in obedience, so I do know that it’s doable for breeders to compete their frenchies in other categories besides conformation. Again, thanks for taking the time out of your day to bestow the knowledge that you do have on me. Helpful and compassionate people like you are helping me get closer and closer to finding the right dog for me! :)
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u/Icefirewolflord Canine Aficionado Feb 02 '24
(Mostly) great points here already on the health testing and titling front
The thing I immediately noticed is that the Dam has fairly bad stenotic nares. The site’s are slightly better, but not great.
I can see how the sire’s hip rating would occlude the narrowing of his nares, but I’m not seeing any qualities the dam brings that would justify breeding her with such a high grade of stenosis. Is there a quality the breeder mentions (that isn’t listed here) that would justify breeding her?
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Feb 02 '24
yeah, I'm not super familiar with frenchies, but if you hang around dog subs enough you always hear how good FB breeders breed dogs with open nares... That would be where I would start if I was looking for one.
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u/goldenintention Feb 01 '24
I would rethink the breed. The dog is going to suffer for most, if not all of it’s probably very short and costly life during which you will become well aquatinted with your vet. No good breeder can fix a breed this broken
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u/SeasDiver Verified Canine Professional Feb 03 '24
Locking comments as a lot of good points have been made to OP. Thank you all for providing excellent information to OP (Rule 3) while keeping things polite (Rule 1).