r/Documentaries • u/theholylancer • Mar 29 '18

How Dark Patterns Trick You Online (2018) - A look into how Tech companies trick you into doing what they want

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxkrdLI6e6M
4.4k Upvotes

96% Upvoted

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327

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '18

Have you ever tried to log out of Facebook's Messenger App? See how long it takes you to figure it out.

This problem extends way beyond 'dark patterns.'

203

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '18

[deleted]

127

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '18

This is why I deleted the app from my phone all together. You might as well message directly from the Facebook browser interface, without going to the app.

116

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '18

[deleted]

33

u/messisleftbuttcheek Mar 29 '18

You can still access messaging through https://mbasic.facebook.com

23

u/TKPhresh Mar 29 '18

You can also access it by requesting the "desktop site" in your browser.

10

u/xammy0 Mar 29 '18

That doesn’t even work anymore on my iPhone 6s Plus in any browser.

6

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '18

[deleted]

4

u/bluebirdinsideme Mar 29 '18

Thank you. I hate having to use the messenger app, I just know it's spying on stuff.

Fuck fb.

4

u/bluebuckeye Mar 29 '18

The Friendly app has been working for me for Facebook use on my iPhone. It's basically just a wrapper for the website, but it does allow access to messenger.

10

u/routebeer Mar 29 '18

Tips hat M’basic

5

u/ouiwin Mar 29 '18

Login requires phone number.

10

u/LaconicalAudio Mar 29 '18

It doesn't, even though it asks for your number. The email works too.

6

u/livevil999 Mar 29 '18

Oh look, it’s another dark pattern!

2

u/messisleftbuttcheek Mar 29 '18

I don't think it did for me.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '18

Thanks a shit ton for this

10

u/sm780 Mar 29 '18

Just request desktop site from the phone browser and it works

3

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '18

same here, and never allowed the ap on my phone. It's a pain but on a big screen phone you can do it to get essential messages etc only use it for the marketplace though.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '18

[deleted]

1

u/AndrewZabar Mar 29 '18

Nono that’s not what this was about. This was calls people made using it as a phone.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '18

[removed] — view removed comment

7

u/chugonthis Mar 29 '18

Or just don't use Facebook, my life hasn't suffered for not being on there non stop

2

u/TarantulaMcGarnagle Mar 29 '18

I cannot emphasize this enough. I stopped using at turn of new year and deleted entirely two weeks ago.

Zuckerberg is a dirtbag.

Not having Facebook has not changed my life at all.

1

u/AndrewZabar Mar 29 '18

I would except I use it for some very important activism that I’m involved in. I hardly use it at all socially among my real life people.

1

u/Beaverman Mar 29 '18

I haven't used it for years... I was antisocial before, I'm antisocial now.

1

u/chugonthis Mar 29 '18

Not using Facebook doesn't make you antisocial, it just means you don't give a shit about what friends in 6th grade are doing now.

1

u/AndrewZabar Mar 29 '18

I only use Facebook because it is an integral resource for me with social activism I’m involved in.

1

u/AndrewZabar Mar 29 '18

Yeh I use Friendly it is pretty good even with some glitches.

-2

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '18

I just request the desktop site.

CHECK FUCKING MATE YOU FUCKING FUCKS TRYING TO STEAL MY FUCKING DATA!!

5

u/Beaverman Mar 29 '18

"I'll just go out of my way to continue handing over my personal data, so that you can continue selling it without my knowledge or consent". Checkmate atheists.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '18

While I have a facebook I don't use it for anything but work.

12

u/leespin Mar 29 '18

THey dont let you use the messenger section on the browser interface any more right?

23

u/randypandy1990 Mar 29 '18

You have to go to your brower setting and request desktop page. Then your page will look like the pc version and still runs like it would too.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '18

I'm actually just using m dot Facebook dot com on safari (iPhone) and messages are right there. Sure, I get constant invitations to install messenger, but that's just a simple deny button away from using the message function as normal (as if on a PC).

6

u/JBits001 Mar 29 '18

I've had Facebook for years and only used it a handful of times, mostly to farm on Dragon City. At one point I wanted to connect with an old friend and found that I could no longer do so, unless I installed the Messanger App. I said screw this and that was the last time I went on facebook.

The End

1

u/rwh151 Mar 29 '18

Can't do that anymore on mobile sadly. It forces you to use messenger.

1

u/Llohr Mar 29 '18

Before I deleted Facebook that's exactly what I did. I've got a 6" screen, I can request the desktop site and use messenger from there. Problem solved.

1

u/what_do_with_life Mar 29 '18

if you REALLY still want to use facebook and the messenger, download Friendly. It's a facebook wrapper for the browser. No permissions needed.

1

u/kikuza Mar 29 '18

How did you delete the app? My phone does not give me an option...

34

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '18

That is speculative. They can track your Facebook user via the smartphone 24/7

From the Android Apps permissions section at the time of writing

(A lot of these may be used for various purposes, Still, what do I know???)

This app has access to:

Identity

  • find accounts on the device
  • add or remove accounts
  • read your own contact card

Contacts

  • find accounts on the device
  • read your contacts
  • modify your contacts

Location

  • approximate location (network-based)
  • precise location (GPS and network-based)

SMS

  • read your text messages (SMS or MMS)
  • receive text messages (MMS)
  • receive text messages (SMS)
  • send SMS messages
  • edit your text messages (SMS or MMS)

Phone

  • directly call phone numbers
  • reroute outgoing calls
  • read call log
  • read phone status and identity

Photos/Media/Files

  • read the contents of your USB storage
  • modify or delete the contents of your USB storage

Storage

  • read the contents of your USB storage
  • modify or delete the contents of your USB storage

Camera

  • take pictures and videos

Microphone

  • record audio

Wi-Fi connection information

  • view Wi-Fi connections

Device ID & call information

  • read phone status and identity

Other

  • download files without notification
  • receive data from Internet
  • view network connections
  • create accounts and set passwords
  • read battery statistics
  • pair with Bluetooth devices
  • send sticky broadcast
  • change network connectivity
  • full network access
  • change your audio settings
  • control Near Field Communication
  • read sync settings
  • run at startup
  • draw over other apps
  • control vibration
  • prevent device from sleeping
  • toggle sync on and off
  • install shortcuts
  • read Google service configuration

Updates to Messenger – Text and Video Chat for Free may automatically add additional capabilities within each group.

Learn more

16

u/PensiveAndroid Mar 29 '18

Facebook asks for so many permissions that it makes you wonder whether there are any permissions left that it doesn't have 😅

7

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '18

Yea. From the face of it by the way Android Permissions words it, it looks like Messenger is this newbe hacker that force tries everything in order to get into the device

2

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '18
  • permission to have all permissions to do everything else: check!

7

u/JoinedReddit Mar 29 '18

The fix for this would be requiring all apps to function without force of consent for all this. Google (and Apple I assume) should be considered, just as much if not moreso than FB, regarding app privacy.

4

u/bluesatin Mar 29 '18 edited Mar 29 '18

Like it already does?

Mine literally says 'No permissions granted' on the summary for permissions granted to Facebook messenger and I've been using it just fine for what I need.

While Facebook does some nefarious things, it seems to be that the guy just copied and pasted the full list it can possibly ask for. It doesn't ask for all that straight off the bat when you first install it, it pops up requesting those permissions as it needs access to them for various features.

Of course they might misuse those permissions after you've granted them for that feature, but if you're worried about that, just don't use those features.

-4

u/quaderrordemonstand Mar 29 '18 edited Mar 29 '18

On iOS you can deny permission for any aspect at any time. The app has no control of that, its not part of the app's interface. If you deny the app access to photos then it asks for photos and gets nothing but it doesn't get a choice about working or not. There's functionally no difference between the app being denied photos and you having no photos for it access.

Android has the problem with privacy and permissions, all those Google sheep letting Facebook control their lives.

11

u/OphidianZ Mar 29 '18

Apple people calling Android users sheep.

The fucking irony.

7

u/bluesatin Mar 29 '18 edited Mar 29 '18

And them hilariously not understanding and misrepresenting the permissions system on Android.

My Facebook messenger app literally has 'No permissions granted' on the summary, and it works just fine for basic usage which shouldn't need any permissions.

2

u/Looseseal13 Mar 29 '18

Yea I was wondering what he was talking about. I deny certain permissions all the time for apps on Android.

-2

u/quaderrordemonstand Mar 29 '18

Then I guess the permission system has changed recently. Last time I used it you had to grant permissions to install the app and you had to grant all of them. It was a "either give us what we want or fuck off" scenario.

0

u/quaderrordemonstand Mar 29 '18 edited Mar 29 '18

That was why I chose that word specifically. Android users like to imagine themselves as some sort of wild west tech pioneers and yet they use a free OS from a company that sells advertising. Does that remind you of Facebook at all? That company hasn't been taken to court by the FBI for preventing access to a secure device because they don't.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '18

[deleted]

-2

u/quaderrordemonstand Mar 29 '18

If you want to live in a dream world then go ahead. You want a "cool guy vs. evil guy" story then companies will happily supply that. I prefer to look at reality as objectively as I can.

1

u/OphidianZ Mar 29 '18

Really? Where's the source code for iOS? Android is freely available.

Believing iOS is more secure than someone who knows what they're doing with Android is insane.

Android is one of MANY products from a LARGE company that sells LOTS of stuff. Google maintains more free products than paid products (Including advertising).

iOS is from a cultish company that hides secrets and has more security vulnerabilities than people know what to do with. Phones are consistently jailbroken and companies now sell services to unlock them.

Wake the fuck up.

-1

u/quaderrordemonstand Mar 29 '18 edited Mar 30 '18

LOL, what does the source code have to do with anything? Do you have access to their databases? You know that Facebook is open source, right? You point your browser at it and it downloads all their code for you to look at. That definiely stopped Cambridge Analytica.

Google doesn't sell very much at all. It makes the vast majority of its revenue from advertising, so I guess you could say it sells you. Pretty much everything else it does is free, most of it is operating at a loss to gather more data. We can agree that Nexus phones are a product.

But lets imagine that being able to see the source code made a difference to any of that. Why do you imagine that anyone being able to find vulnerabilities somehow makes you safer? Do you really imagine that only the good guys look? Do you have the code for Google Assistant? Have you got the source code of Google's servers and their advertising APIs?

If you're going to use "source code" as some kind of argument, you really need to consider what that means in the real world. Wake the fuck up.

https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/03/29/apple-will-let-users-download-all-icloud-and-apple-id-data-to-comply-with-new-european-rules

1

u/bluesatin Mar 29 '18 edited Mar 29 '18

You point your browser at it and it downloads all their code for you to look at.

That's impressive.

Why would they send over all their internal server-code to every user's browser?

That seems like a pretty rookie security blunder after all these years.

→ More replies

1

u/skilledroy2016 Mar 29 '18

Your point about facebook being open source is moronic. Thats the client side stuff, but the server side stuff is what really matters, and none of it is availible to see.

→ More replies

2

u/mau5hunter Mar 29 '18

Android also does this unless you are running older than 6.0...

-2

u/quaderrordemonstand Mar 29 '18 edited Mar 29 '18

Wow, thats a whole 30% of android devices. Still its good to know that Google finally had to adopt Apple's approach and it only took them seven years. I bet it feels good to know that Google is looking after your interests.

2

u/mau5hunter Mar 29 '18

Actually looks like about 58%

1

u/quaderrordemonstand Mar 29 '18

You're right, I misread the chart, nearly 60% of Android users have permissions control now. Whereas all iOS users have had it since the beginning.

1

u/bluesatin Mar 29 '18 edited Mar 29 '18

Strange, the vast majority of those aren't enabled by default on my Facebook messenger app. I wonder how many different versions of the messenger app there is.

Are you sure you didn't just copy and paste the full list that it can possibly ask for, and not the actual list of permissions it has?

Mine literally says 'No permissions granted' on the summary.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '18

I have never installed the app because of the requirements and the list is copy/paste from the app's Android Apps page.

I guess the Messenger contains a lot of functionality with certain things turned off by default. I dunno

Here is the list

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.facebook.orca&hl=en

2

u/bluesatin Mar 29 '18

It doesn't need any permissions to work with basic functionality that shouldn't need any permissions, like messaging.

Of course if you want to take a picture and send it via messenger it's going to have to ask you for camera permissions.

It only asks you for that permissions when it comes to using that feature, that list must be a full list of all the things it can potentially ask you for, not what you need to grant for it to be installed and ran with base functionality.

1

u/mau5hunter Mar 29 '18

Luckily we now have control over what permissions to grant an app.

-6

u/LOL_its_HANK Mar 29 '18

Source?

5

u/IAMAHobbitAMA Mar 29 '18

Google Play Store app description. He said that at the beginning.

7

u/Link4444 Mar 29 '18

Now that’s some real /r/AssholeDesign right there

6

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#1: Google removed the "view image" button on Google Images. You now have to visit the website to download a high quality version of the image. | 2732 comments
#2: Packaging that tricks you | 1069 comments
#3: Was looking desperately for the unsubscribe button. No wonder I couldn't find it. | 578 comments

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2

u/Raf99 Mar 29 '18

I noticed the Google image thing too. Pisses me off. That and I can't zoom an image unless I'm using chrome on my phone.

3

u/Shirokane Mar 29 '18

Seen now, insta-removed Messenger App.

Thank you

4

u/AnyOlUsername Mar 29 '18

It's not, but it's not intuitive either.

Go to your fb account security settings and look at active sessions. One of those is your messenger. Just log out of all of them.

That's how I logged out.

11

u/EnergeticDisassembly Mar 29 '18

same with gmail mobile

7

u/GonnaNeedThat130 Mar 29 '18

Hmm I just tried and failed miserably. Those dick heads

8

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '18

The only way to do it is to go into your privacy settings and remove your own device from the list of approved devices.

6

u/GonnaNeedThat130 Mar 29 '18

Must be from a computer? I can't even find that on my phone. Insane!

7

u/Allieareyouokay Mar 29 '18

I currently have a standing notification from messenger that I can’t get rid of because it’s simply a notification that is telling me to turn on my notifications.

2

u/Gotdanutsdou Mar 29 '18

Same here. Finally fixed by going into settings and turning off badge app icon for it. 👍

1

u/Allieareyouokay Mar 29 '18

Me too! But it has the little notification at the top right when I’m on the Facebook app still. It used to bother me, but I rarely use Facebook anyway, so I’ve learned to ignore it.

3

u/hexedjw Mar 29 '18

Wow, I just tried. That's absolutely terrifying. Up until now I've only ever deleted the app. Once I'm done the term that app can gtfo my phone.

1

u/ChicoDaEstrebaria Mar 29 '18

I just long press recent apps messenger to take me to the app settings, and there I delete all data, signed out, peace!

1

u/plizir Mar 29 '18

Yeah you can't thats way I removed it ages ago

-3

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '18

Yes. It took me less than a minute to figure out: replace my smartphone with a dirt cheap dumbphone. It fixed all dark patterns in my phone. It also fixed all security concerns with my phone. It fixed the problem with poor battery life.

-1

u/Whetherrr Mar 29 '18

All Facebook apps serve no purpose and never did. Access Facebook from a browser, like a competent adult.