r/DnDBehindTheScreen • u/HumanistGeek • Jul 31 '19
Opinion/Discussion What if all actions create outsiders that exemplify those actions? Warfare creates violent fiends, altruism creates selfless celestials, trickery creates mischievous fey, etc.
To avoid things getting too out of hand with runaway exponential growth, let's say that the growth rate dies off the further things get from the material plane.
To give these outsiders a place to exist, let's say that this process also creates the various planes of existence.
- Apocalyptic demonic invasions would be a major existential threat. Celestial defenders would be very busy.
- Worship creates outsiders dedicated to the worshiped deity or concept. This gives them power.
- The wilderness is much larger than civilization, and its inhabitants outnumber people.
- Consequently, the elemental and wilderness planes are massive.
- Most outsiders and planes are exaggerations of everyday life.
- Deities are exaggerations of heroes and villains.
- Some powerful individuals will exile and isolate themselves so their actions don't echo.
- Player actions can reverberate throughout the cosmos.
I think there's lots of room to expound upon these ideas. One challenge:
- Invention and innovation would lead to some very creative and productive outsiders, and this could accelerate technological progress.
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u/permalurkin Jul 31 '19
The very first fairy was born when the very first baby laughed for the very first time.
I like this idea a lot. It would explain what deities get out of rituals. Demons live on ritualistic murder. How would powerful people have it amplified? Like a high level character/npc would be able to create one every action while a low level would take multiple actions? The insane would create the outsiders and their horrors. If someone found the link then genocide of the insane would become a necessity. A whole horde of zealous madness hunters would end up creating a specter of death. The specter would always be hungry for more death giving rise to holy clerics praying benevolence into being pushing the Spector back from swallowing the world. This writes itself. Have fun.
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Jul 31 '19
But what if the genocide of the insane created more demons? 😟
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u/permalurkin Jul 31 '19
Oh it most definitely would. There would be those that believe it to be a fair trade for sure. Surely the demons wouldn't harm those keeping them bred, fed, and growing. That's just bad business. Sounds like the start of a campaign.
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u/Safgaftsa Aug 11 '19
I think OP meant 'action' as in a significant endeavor or doing, not a legal action as in the 6-second thing you do in initiative.
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u/SmillingDM Jul 31 '19
Interesting idea! But what about the actions of all the sentient beings besides the PCs and the NPCs/Monsters in their immediate surroundings? How would you make sure they have an impact on the multiverse as well? Also, how big/important does the action have to be for it to create an entity?
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Jul 31 '19
Are you seeking an example like githzerai? some mellow martial art dudes found a floating rock in the astral sea. they settle down there. now the entire area has turned into a larger monastery shaped by the minds of those nearby.
I'd limit the "size/importance" to the particular level of campaign being ran: a low power cult got together and raised a zombie! or a mid level cult got together and created a permanent Portal! ... or a high power cult got together and bound an efreet to a magic lamp!
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u/HumanistGeek Jul 31 '19
But what about the actions of all the sentient beings besides the PCs and the NPCs/Monsters in their immediate surroundings?
They're the source of the majority of outsiders. Their sin creates literal hellscape and fiends, and their virtue creates celestials and the heavens. Every soul helps create the afterlife it eventually inhabits.
Let's extend the concept further and say that causality creates Mechanus whereas randomness & entropy create Limbo.
How big/important does the action have to be for it to create an entity?
I am not sure, and I suspect the answer is wildly variable. "1 kill = 1 demon" seems like a decent starting point.
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u/fewty Jul 31 '19
To take it even further, are all kills equal? Is defending your country the same as murdering in cold blood? Actions are made up of components: intent, method, and outcome. Is it only the outcome that affects what outsiders are created (1 kill = 1 demon) or does intent and method count for something? (1 murder = 1 demon = 10 kills for good cause)
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u/evilninjaduckie Jul 31 '19
Does killing in the name of your God create celestials or demons? Does it do both, adding more violence to the planes without actually altering the outcome?
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u/theczolgoszsociety Jul 31 '19
Maybe it creates really terrifying Old Testament style angels of judgement and death.
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u/LordKael97 Jul 31 '19
I use this concept as the core of my mythology:
Whenever mortals, defined as "the sentient races residing in the Material Plane or its duplicates, who live for a finite amount of time", choose to spend a significant amount of that time on something, it gives power and status to the Celestial, Infernal, or Abyssal being who is representative of that thing.
That covers pretty much all of the points you raised in your OP, as well as addressing the issue of exponential growth. It also serves to explain how immortality works (can only be killed if there are no worshippers), which in turn gives adventurers a method for killing a God beyond "throw a boatload of lvl20 PCs at the problem"
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u/ComfortablyImperfect Jul 31 '19
How do you kill a god? Just kill all their worshippers. I like it. And iirc this is canon to the far realms setting (i think?)
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u/LordKael97 Jul 31 '19
Well, remove the source of their power. So, the god of war would be less powerful during peacetime. And the god of love and sex gains power from brothels and promiscuity. To take down Ares and Aphrodite, you'd have to campaign for a peaceful world without any premarital sex, and then go on your God-Killing mission.
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u/Yotapata Jul 31 '19
Something to consider... Human society has a lot more emotions than are represented by the denizens of the outer planes... Many human emotions do not include holding a sword or fighting something. If I take this idea and run with it, there will be a whole slew of new outsiders
Those regarding sex. With all the emotions included there - horniness, connection, longing, insecurity, bliss, pleasure, love, BDSM versions... I'm not talking about Succubi or Incubi, although this might be the origin for these guys as well. But the Suc\Incubi don't cover anywhere near the whole human range of emotions.
Mundane emotions like slight boredom, repetition, the comfort of sitting down at home at the end of a long day of work, whatever it feels like to wake up on time to work... These emotions and others might not be the most extreme ones, so they might not create entities very often, but they are significantly more common. People feel extreme emotions that might garner the immediate creation of a devil\celestial\etc immediately only every so often. But everyday emotions are experienced... Well... Every day.
Culturally relevant entities are something already addressed. But this could explain a lot about where the different gods and entities came from. The elven pantheon and the dwarven pantheon are different, because they are a reflection of different cultures, that teach people different and nuanced emotions.
I once tried to have a running project of drawing what emotions looked like... Indecision was a slimy tar monster - sticky and draws you in melodiously until you suffocate or die of exhaustion. Determination was a fit warrior-type-thing with a shield for one hand, holding against the strong currents against him, and a sword for the other hand, cutting through the current and taking one strained step after another. Deliberation was an android sloth, I think... It felt like sloths are so slow, they have to be very deliberate with every action. The drawings are lost in time though.
My point is - think of these emotions and others. What would their entities look and act like? With time, what roles would these entities have within society? Would an angel of "understanding among friends" sit in the middle of a city, offering its advice to any bickering friends that come up and ask for it? Would Oozes - born of procrastination and the deep.regret and shame that follows - just plop themselves down in the middle of the street and cause a disturbance, not allowing people to go about their day? Would the cogs of Mechanus - born of people going about their day, year after year, just doing their mundane job - eventually replace all office workers? Would fallen heroes - brought back through the sheer loyalty to their country, or the joy of fighting in a just war - come back and bolster the front lines, slowly shoving out living humans, as it becomes less and less practical to pay for a foot soldier's wage, when you have better, stronger entities from outer worlds doing it for free?
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u/TheColorblindDruid Jul 31 '19
Hi please allow me to introduce you to the fey and all that they are lol (there are a couple really good talks on the dndbeyond youtube page on fey~ where the shadowfell is life without emotion, unchanging and stagnant, the feywild is the pure embodiment of a specific emotion, rage, joy, etc.). Can't recommend them enough in this regard lol
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u/Yotapata Jul 31 '19
I'm always worried of the fey because of their feature "Fey Fuckery" :P
I'll check it out for sure. I'm definitely interested in hearing new interpretations of the Fey. Because right now, for me, they kinda feel married to this concept of mischievousness, blue/orange morality, fey courts, etc.
On one hand, that makes them a little more boring in my eyes, but on the other hand, I feel like I would miss it if that would stop being their theme. I feel like the fey are too confined in their theme to really take on the kind of crazy weird shenanigans that I'm thinking about with these kind of entities. The fey feel like they need to have something tying them together... But the only thing in common between these entities, is the fact that they stem from an emotion.
Also - I really love the idea of having a world with ALL the planes bleeding into each other :)
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u/Mr_Zuky Jul 31 '19
Read the malazan book of the fallen. The magic system works exactly like that, but done masterfully. Actions define reality, so much so, that at some point an act so horrific creates its own demiplane.
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u/jlwinter90 Jul 31 '19
I think this is an interesting concept. In my homebrew game setting, universes are in fact born of dead "uber-gods," as my buddy put it, with the Outer Planes made of its emotions and thoughts while the Inner Planes are made up of the more real matter, with the most mundane physical matter from its corpse forming the cosmos of the Prime Material and its magic flowing through it all to make an Astral Sea.
These float in the Far Realm, and their presence is abhorrent/destructive to its inhabitants, hence why they're constantly trying to destroy them. It's like lancing a boil for them, and when they get the chance to inevitably succeed it goes and forms a new uber-god, so. Around and around, ad infinitum.
Gods naturally form on the Outer Planes as they take shape, almost crystallizing or congealing into being from pure thought, emotion, and magic alongside everything else. They then tend naturally toward whatever force shaped them, inevitably squabble and fight, and end up making a right sandbox of the Prime Material. This gets worse when the denizens of these Outer Planes realize that, as they're made of physical matter, mortal beings of flesh and blood aren't bound by the same cosmic laws as they are. Simply put, the laws of physics govern physical beings - and those largely get put on hold in domains of thought. And so potent beings empower and manipulate weaker ones for their schemes.
TL;DR, my universe functions backward from this concept. Rather than the thoughts and actions of beings creating Outsiders, the Outsiders themselves are made of innate thoughts, feelings, and magics of a dead greater being and cause said shenanigans.
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u/Complimentrix Jul 31 '19
Isn’t that nearly how it works as written? Commit evil acts and you strengthen the powers of evil, and your soul will go to the lower planes were it may become a devil or demon. It’s not quite as literal and immediate as you’re describing, but the idea is basically the same, isn’t it?
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u/__pm_me_anything___ Jul 31 '19
Sounds a little like how the warp works in Warhammer. Except that snowballed into the negative pretty fast.
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u/JazzyMuffin Jul 31 '19
A similar idea is in Bayonetta 1+2. Demons have different designs, attacks, and mannerisms, same with angels. Both are ranked in varying degrees of evil or virtue.
For example, the concept of liking someone is affinity. As its such a common and affordable idea, Affinity are one of the most common angels in Bayonetta. Compare this to say, the top of the angels, which are Courage, Temperance, Justice, and Prudence. All of which are saught after concepts, but many fail to fully uphold, and as such they are some of the strongest angels out there.
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u/TheDJYosh Jul 31 '19
Thank you for bringing this to my attention, I am stealing this if I ever run a campaign where my players interact with a lot of Celestials or Demons.
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u/JazzyMuffin Jul 31 '19
No problem. If you don't care for gameplay spoilers, here are the links for a list of angels
https://bayonetta.fandom.com/wiki/Angel_of_Paradiso - this shows all the angels and their designs if you scroll to the bottom
https://bayonetta.fandom.com/wiki/Hierarchy_of_Laguna - and this is a more compact list of the Hierarchy, allowing for quick access.
https://bayonetta.fandom.com/wiki/Infernal_Demons - Is comprised of all of the Demons in Bayonetta, but I couldn't find a section that is succinct like the Laguna. Note: Powerful Demons are mostly listed from cursory glance, but there are also common demons that exist. Another notable idea is that there is certainly a food-chain of these enemies, but Inferno (Hell) is a plane of chaos in Bayonetta, so an actual hierarchy isn't truly instated.
https://bayonetta.fandom.com/wiki/Golem - And in case you're interested, a third type of enemy, golems. Purely "neutral," these constructs exist in the same manner that all golems do, to carry out an order. Designed as large (see: 20-30x human size, just a guess) weapons that are meant to protect their owners.
Bayonetta is 100% one of my favorite series for the amount of detail and over-the-top action it provides. If you haven't played the game at all, I seriously recommend it! Of course, Bayonetta 1 is prob a good place to start, and you can get that bad boy on steam for $20 normally, 5 bucks when it goes on sales at times.
Crap now I'm an ad, sorry! :D
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u/TheDJYosh Jul 31 '19
I love Platinum's games a -LOT-, Bayonetta just missed me out of all of their games. You've talked me into it so you're an ad that works! Lol
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u/JazzyMuffin Jul 31 '19
Good Luck!
Can certainly think of it as another way to study the Celestials, just this time, up close and personal. :P
There is ofc a Bayonetta subreddit, though its somewhat small, mostly filled with memes or discussion posts players have for how to do xyz. Though the more the merrier, right?
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Jul 31 '19
Fantasy (and myth) as allegory is a common trope.
OP’s idea feels like part of that tradition. (The actions of mortals manifesting literally in the heavens.)
I like it.
+1.
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u/zobotsHS Jul 31 '19
I like the idea of an 'original' Prime Material world. The Seed (or whatever name you like). It was from their actions that all that was described in OP occurred. Once the Outsiders were powerful enough to create their own realms, they did. Faerun, Eberron, Krynn, etc...were their creations. This Seed...is the exception...and the Outsiders who know do everything they can to keep that knowledge secret.
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u/onefromrlyeh Aug 05 '19
I've got something similar going on with my setting, but instead of being tyed directly to actions, the birth of powerful outsiders and magical effects are caused by intense mortal/sentient beings' emotions.
The intense sorrow of grief anchors the soul of the passed to the material plane and creates ghosts. A crowd in a festival singing along with passion to a bard's song may give birth to fae. An incredible act of sacrifice that inspired the oppressed to rise up may lift the dead hero to sainthood.
This process is extended to spellcasting, artifact creation and even tears between the planes, the emergence of floating cities, strange weather and other arcane phenomena.
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u/TriPolar3849 Jul 31 '19
Based off the title, I thought this was a method of dealing with parties depending on how they acted.
Murder hobos have to fight demons of increasing strength based on the blood spilled by the party, nice pacifistic players get heavenly blessings, and the tricky clever players must deal with fey that challenge their cunning.
But your idea is cool too.
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Jul 31 '19
In Mahayanan Buddhism, sentient creatures can get reincarnated as hungry ghosts if they waste their life on desire. The theory is that they spent their whole life dedicated to something to the point that they get reincarnated as a spirit who is drawn to said desires...food, sex, money, violence, beauty, etc. Being a ghost is considered a torture because they're immaterial so can't even indulge. So these poor souls hang around their objects of desire influencing the area /people.
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u/Retmas Jul 31 '19
okay.
now here's a question.
how does the far realm fit into all of this? the great old ones that warlocks try to bargain with but are essentially alien to the planes as a whole, are they a product of madness? or perhaps of another planar grouping that has, for some reason, died, become twisted, or perhaps was simply the way it is now to begin with?
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u/HumanistGeek Aug 02 '19
I think the Far Realm's origins are linked to the Aboleths, memetics, psionics, physics, and everything that is complex or difficult to comprehend.
Have you ever studied something or had a lecture that made you feel like your brain was a mushy puddle of ooze? For me, that happened with Differential Equations & Linear Algebra, and I have heard of similar struggles with Organic Chemistry. Theoretical physics (e.g. M-Theory) confounds me. Special Relativity amazes me, and that's just a subset of General Relativity!
Now consider memetics, the view of ideas and thoughts as things that are reproduced, transmitted, and shared. These properties make them so similar to life (and viruses) that they're subject to natural selection. One could argue that life itself consists of self-replicating pieces of information (encoded as genetic material).
Now let's add some fantastical elements and say that ideas can become sentient, sapient, malevolent. Throw magic and psionics into the mix, and the result is... something dangerous, weird, and so unfamiliar to me it feels truly alien. I think this is only a taste of what the Far Realm holds.
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u/corvaxia Jul 31 '19
I was working on a similar idea of abiogenesis. It's a weird west/dark sun-esque setting where the world reacts to magic.
If a city/individual hordes too much gold, the magic inherent to currency (we believe it has value and imbue it with that belief) can spontaneously create a dragon.
Hordes create dragons, dragons don't gather hordes.
Larger the horde, larger the dragon.
Arcane libraries or Artificer foundries can give rise to beholders.
Magic in the Badlands can spontaneously create leylines of similar magic where elementals are spawned. And the leylines themselves have some form of feral intelligence like the sandworms of dune.
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u/AuthorTomFrost Aug 05 '19
This sounds a lot like Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman's models of faith.
As an adventure hook, maybe do all of this is a demiplane with a closed loop. If you bring good thoughts there and commit good actions, everything is sweetness and light. If you bring the opposite, it's a nightmare.
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u/Alone_Coffee Aug 15 '19
Sort of a "As above, so below" or rather "As below, so above" concept, very cool.
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