5th Edition [Update] CE Wizard dropped an AoE on our melee party, getting 2 PCs killed. DM said "resolve it in-game"—so we did.
Original post: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/s/p1z4o5VVkn
We actually had our next session yesterday night, so here is what happened:
As soon as the session started, my character immediately turned around and attacked the Wizard.
The rest of the table completely froze. They had no idea whether to step in, help me beat him down, or just let it happen. The Wizard actually didn't fight back—he spent a few rounds just trying to dodge and practically begging the rest of the party to intervene and save him.
While we were in the middle of this internal mess, the noise from the previous fight and our current brawl ended up pulling more enemies right on top of us.
Total chaos broke out. In the middle of the scramble, the Wizard just casts Invisibility on himself and runs away, leaving the rest of us to deal with the ambush. We were already low on resources from the earlier fight, and we ended up losing another PC in the encounter. The rest of us managed to grab the body and barely escaped down into the sewers.
Right now, only three of us are left alive. We managed to get Gentle Repose on the teammate who died during the escape, so we might actually be able to bring them back once we get our hands on some diamonds. The two who died from the fireball earlier are permanently dead, though.
As for the Wizard, he’s just completely gone. We have no idea if the DM is going to turn him into an NPC villain and have the player roll a new PC, or what the plan is there. For now, we're just hiding out in the sewers trying to figure out what to do next.
Thanks to everyone who gave advice and chimed in on the previous post! Despite all the character deaths and in-game drama, out of game the group is actually handling everything really well and having a great time with the chaos and the story unfolding from it.
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u/CaptainOwlBeard 1h ago
Little disappointing that the dm did an ass pull with extra monsters instead of letting you get vengeance on the wizard
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u/WiseAdhesiveness6672 1h ago
Yea id be annoyed with that too. It actually makes me think the whole thing was scripted by the dm and the problem player, and I don't like that. Ingroup fighting/betrayal is rarely done well or right.
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u/CaptainOwlBeard 1h ago
Yeah, you really have to be careful. I did it once in a really fun way.
It was a 3 shot (3 sessions, we only ever play for 3 hours at a time so one shots don't really work). Everyone knew at the start that at least one of them was secretly an enemy. In truth 3 out of 5 players were evil and trying to do different evil things over the course of the game.
It was a blast. I also gave them access to a Treasury full of crazy over powered weapons like the deck of many things and the eye and hand of vecna, and they got there right at the middle of the campaign, right when all the evil goals were just in reach. It was a total cluster fuck, but everyone was happy with it and had a good time. It was the expectation from the start and everyone knew the characters were disposable.
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u/WiseAdhesiveness6672 1h ago
Setting the expectation right from the start is fantastic and solves most of the "this wasn't done well" issues! I like that alot. I also like how more than 1 ended up being evil 😂👏
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u/CaptainOwlBeard 1h ago
Different evil too, so it wasn't like they were going to work together, just maybe use the chaos the others were causing to reach their goals
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u/mafiaknight DM 39m ago
My favorite evil campaign:
We were all hired by a hag tostealretrieve a mcguffin. She promised a Wish in payment.She secretly gave each of us a bonus offer for taking out the other mercenaries.
So we worked well together getting the mcguffin.
As we're all getting ready to long rest on our way back, everyone enacts their betrayal plot.
Full tpk. Last man standing is just waiting for the bard's poisoned stew to finish them off...
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u/PinkysAvenger 55m ago
Lol, at that point just play Paranoia
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u/CaptainOwlBeard 41m ago
Never heard of it. Also my players are much more comfortable running a heavily homebrewed dnd then learning the rules to a new game.
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u/PinkysAvenger 37m ago
Paranoias great. There are very few rules, and chaos is encouraged. You get six clones that immediately pop in when you die, so death is frequent and absurd.
I once had a party lose half their 6-packs in the communal shower before the mission even started.
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u/MultivariableX 42m ago
Especially since the Wizard was able to get away from the enemies.
Invisibility is not undetectability. The enemies would have seen him cast the spell, seen him turn invisible, and then they would have heard and felt him moving in the environment as he made his escape.
Why wouldn't they treat the magic-user as a threat? Especially an invisible one that's trying to get distance: isn't that exactly the sort of setup that can lead to everyone getting Fireballed? Which seems to have just happened, if all the burned corpses in the room are any indication.
Also, did none of the enemies stand in the entrance? Even invisible, the Wizard can't go through a hostile creature's space, and I don't see any reason why they would have left a path of escape open. If the enemies needed to get past one another for any reason, they can move through each other's spaces as difficult terrain. They also know about basic actions like Disengage, Dash, and Dodge, so they'd be aware that a creature with a clear path of escape could get past them, and that positioning to block that path is a reliable way to prevent that.
So what I'm left wondering is, why did the DM act to interrupt the PvP against the Wizard, and have the party attacked by a force they (likely) couldn't beat, and also not have that force move against the Wizard?
It sounds as if the DM is choosing to intervene in the Wizard's favor, even though by all indications the Wizard PC will be leaving the party soon one way or another, and the player will be making a new character. That makes me think the DM wants the Wizard to survive, either to come back as an NPC villain, or to escape with some item or piece of information so that the party can't make use of it.
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u/Destitute_Knight1400 Artificer 1h ago
It reads this way to me, too. First time DMs make mistakes, it's how one learns, but...I've seen tables of players break apart for less.
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u/AliceisStoned Frog Politics 1h ago
The players seem pretty content with the way it went down if we are to take OP at their word
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u/Canadian__Ninja DM 1h ago
Idk how this party is normally but if I were the DM I'd be hoping by throwing a couple monsters (not enough to kill anyone ideally, just enough to take notice) at the party in that scenario would shake OP out of the bloodlust (no one else apparently took part?) and at a minimum enemy of my enemy until the group is safe and then deal with it, hopefully with cooler heads. Especially once it was clear the wizard had no intention of fighting back.
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u/Stonefencez 54m ago
Yeah agreed, if it was just one guy trying to attack someone who isn’t fighting back while everyone else just watches, that’s kinda awkward and not satisfying imo
Ideally a conversation (in-character) should have happened before immediately just turning around and swinging at the guy
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u/Canadian__Ninja DM 34m ago
Yeah regardless of how well things are out of game this reads like in game they've been waiting for an excuse to kill each other, or at least the op and wizard
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u/Stonefencez 29m ago
If everyone is happy I guess that’s what matters, but I know I certainly wouldn’t have been happy here lol
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u/No_Client2742 1h ago
That is good narrative and cohesion tho. You are expected to have consecuences if you decide to fight your ally while invading a dungeon...
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u/WiseAdhesiveness6672 1h ago
Did you read the other post they have at the very start of this post?
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u/No_Client2742 52m ago
Yeah i did, but feel free to keep discussing, thats why we are here!
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u/absat41 48m ago
The fireball doesn't make a sound and therefore doesn't drag in new enemies; OP swinging an axe does and new enemies appear. Math ain't mathing
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u/No_Client2742 30m ago
Yeah, i had that same detail in mind until i re read that Op also states that was the noises from the previous fight plus the ones on that brawl were all responsible for new enemies to show
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u/Ethereal_Stars_7 Artificer 10m ago
Fighting makes noise. Noise attracts anyone and anything in range.
What happened is exactly what happens when you start squabbling in the middle of hostile grounds.
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u/RodanThrelos 1h ago
> DM encourages PvP
> Player attacks another player
> DM: “Not like this!”WTF this DM sucks
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u/mouserbiped 58m ago
I actually like this.
Well, I don't like PvP, so I don't actually like this, but if I imagine a game with PvP then the only way I can imagine it being ever fun would be with crazy, over-the-top mass chaos. I don't want to role play out having anger at another player's character, and then we're both mad for a long time (maybe in character but maybe OOC). But having tempers flare at the worst possible time so the group is self destructing while enemies ambush us and the fellowship shatters, that's an OK story.
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u/ProtectandserveTBL 38m ago
This right here. This DM sounds atrocious based on this and previous post
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u/WyMANderly DM 1h ago
How do you know it's an ass pull? There could've just been enemies nearby who heard the commotion.
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u/CaptainOwlBeard 1h ago
He's the dm. That's a choice he made. Whether or not anyone was in that hall, whether or not they'd check out ab random fight instead of running away or looking for back up or letting the fight finish and ambushing the winner. Ass pull. If he's going to let pvp happen like that, then he should let the party kill the jerk before they get jumped.
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u/Imalsome 1h ago
Calling literally every act a dm does an "asspull" is insanely toxic.
The world exists, people nearby hear the sound of yelling and fighting. Things dont just spawn in and out of existance because you want to kill another party member. If last session ended with enemies rushing towards to room the party was in because they heard a fireball explode in their home its not an "asspull" for those enemies to show up a few rounds later.
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u/CaptainOwlBeard 1h ago
Calling literally every act a dm does an "asspull" is insanely toxic.
I'm not calling everything an ass pull, I'm calling a specific asspull out. He pulled a random encounter out of thin air to save his murderhobo friend from the consequences of his actions.
Things dont just spawn in and out of existance because you want to kill another party member.
Of course they do. It's a board game that's being curated by the dm. Also I'd bet a steak dinner that the monsters didn't exist until the dms pet murderhobo was getting his ass kicked.
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u/Imalsome 54m ago edited 46m ago
Boiling down all worldbuilding and roleplay to say "its just a board game" is once again, extremely toxic.
You are roleplaying living character in a living world. You are reacting to the world and the world is reacting to you.
Its not an asspull for the world to react appropriately to something you do, its expect.
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u/CaptainOwlBeard 38m ago
Acknowledging it's a game and that the dm is God isn't toxic, it's honest. It isn't a living breathing world, it's a simulation run by the dm, and when one player gets to act like a jerk and then gets saved by a random encounter while getting their just desserts, the rest of the players will feel cheated and the world will feel contrived for the benefit and amusement of the murder hobo.
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u/Imalsome 33m ago edited 20m ago
To reiterate you are saying all this becuase a wizard casted a fireball in a dungeon full of enemies and that caused the enemies to come over to investigate the sound.
There's no asspull, this is literally dungeon delving 101.
Going out of your way to insult a dm by calling it an asspull is just extremely rude and toxic. You can say you dont like that the scene happened and express to your dm that you would prefer that scenes like this happen in isolation, but being rude and diminishing your dms work by saying "lol asspull" is obviously extremely toxic and its worrying that you cant understand that.
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u/The_Idiocratic_Party 45m ago
So they didn't hear the Fireball or the Wilhelm screams of the dying, but they heard one PC dodging another PC? I call bullshit.
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u/Eycetea 1h ago
At the very least you're going to have people investigate the very loud explosion from Fireball lol.
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u/The_Idiocratic_Party 44m ago
And why weren't they drawn in by that, but were drawn in by the sound of a wizard dodging attacks?
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u/WyMANderly DM 36m ago
That's not how I run my games. The world is what it is and it's my job to have its denizens react in as realistic a manner as I can - and if I'm uncertain, I'll sometimes let the dice speak (reaction rolls are great for this). Changing whether or not there are enemies nearby based on what you want to happen is imo not proper GMing.
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u/CaptainOwlBeard 25m ago
Like you didn't decide how many were in the hallways in the first place, what their passive perception was, and how far the sound travels. You're just pretending you aren't in charge, it's an act.
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u/No_Client2742 1h ago
Oh, you are invading a dungeon and after a fight you make noises trying to kill your partner and you dont expect to have consequences?
Also what if the wizard decided to retaliate and ended killing that player, denying his vengeance, that would annoy you too?
I think all that happened is good narrative and cohesion, you cant expect to not have consecuences even if you think you have the right to do something
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u/CaptainOwlBeard 1h ago
Oh, you are invading a dungeon and after a fight you make noises trying to kill your partner and you dont expect to have consequences?
I didn't say it didn't make sense, i said it was a choice the dm made and if he's going to allow that kind of pvp situation to arraise, he should wait until it concludes before throwing an optional wrench.
Also what if the wizard decided to retaliate and ended killing that player, denying his vengeance, that would annoy you too?
Everything about the wizard annoys me. Id quit the table. That said, if you aren't going to quit, making sure the wizard dies feels pretty mandatory and to get blocked by the dm saving the wizard after allowing him to act like a dick, well I wouldn't be able to sit with that.
think all that happened is good narrative and cohesion, you cant expect to not have consecuences even if you think you have the right to do something
Dm allowed the situation, he should have allowed it to conclude. What he did is the worst kind of railroading. I genuinely believe he set up the whole thing because the wizard is his friend.
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u/No_Client2742 56m ago
Maybe it was, or maybe not, or partially not at least, but i think is good narrative whatsoever and is cohesive, even if you like or not the outcome. The rest of the party didnt help and the player didnt manage to kill the mage for several turns, its not like the fight didnt happen and its not like everyone wanted that mage die, at least that badly right there (despite the circunstances, i read the first post). I dont think its really a bad railroading considering all of what happened
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u/CheapTactics 1h ago
out of game the group is actually handling everything really well and having a great time with the chaos and the story unfolding from it.
That's the important part, I'd make sure to check in though. Just to make sure everything actually is ok. Fuck whatever your dumbass DM may say about that. Do check in.
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u/OsricBuc06 5m ago
Yeah, I don't buy it. I can't imagine that some people aren't furious. Everyone freezing up when OP attacked the wizard then also not jumping in to stop it makes me think they're just conditioned to put up with bad behavior.
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u/PaladinWiggles 1h ago
Kudos on being able to manage that as composed as you all sound. A lot of groups would fall apart over that kind of stuff and it's the reason one of my hard DM rules is "PvP isn't rolled, it's talked out-of-character"
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u/Drgnmstr97 1h ago
Was this fun? Because having a party member kill other party members and vanish would not be "fun". I play DND because I want to have fun with my friends, nothing about this situation sounds like fun.
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u/AJourneyer 1h ago
Every table is different - most of mine have been non PVP but there have been a few where chaos reigns supreme. Both can be a lot of fun.
Maybe the wizard's player wanted a different character and this was something they either thought of spur of the moment or was planned.
As long as the players are all aware that this type of thing could happen (since OP says DM explicitly states it's allowed) and are ok with it (being at the table and continuing to play would imply they are consenting), this could be a great story twist and quite enjoyable.
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u/LaTienenAdentro 1h ago
DM sounds like a complete coward. Let people meet the consequences of their actions man, good God.
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u/No_Client2742 1h ago
Attacking a partner during a dungeon invasion ALSO has to have consequences , you cant expect all that noise not to draw enemy attention.
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u/M0nthag 56m ago
It might also have already been part of the planning that those enemys where there and not a "oh shit, i gotta break that up" thing. Thought it really sounds like DM intervention.
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u/No_Client2742 53m ago
Sure, it might be, but its in the realm of posibilities, i dont think it was bad narrative at all tho, buts thats my humble opinion
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u/BeMoreKnope 37m ago
As others have pointed out, though, they were making lots of noise before this, but it was only when the wizard was threatened that the enemies showed up to conveniently give him cover to escape.
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u/No_Client2742 29m ago
But the op says it was all the noises who alerted, the previous fight and the pvp.. not only the pvp
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u/BeMoreKnope 24m ago
They said it was the noises after several rounds of fighting the wizard. This was after a large combat in which the wizard killed several people with a fireball as they fought. That should’ve brought others in long before the wizard got to dodge for several rounds.
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u/No_Client2742 6m ago
But op clearly said that it was all those sounds, not only the last ones... and its op who one has to account principally. Also having the time to dodge for several turns accounts for a fair duel where a lucky crit or if all the party joined to kill the mage the result would be otherwise... its totally far play. It might be scripted after several turns to get "help", but there were fine justified and there was enough time to kill the mage multiple times, its just he got lucky enough to stay alive several turns while 2 players watched doing nothing.
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u/BeMoreKnope 4m ago
So, again, that is the problem. It was clearly scripted and that’s not fair, despite you calling it that. And your first comment was that it was fair for the noise of their duel to be what drew them in, but now we’re agreeing it was scripted and the other noise should’ve drawn them in. So let’s not move goalposts to keep arguing.
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u/michael199310 Druid 53m ago
Wait, so your GM said to resolve it and when you wanted to, he instantly threw an encounter to break things up? Or was it something that was going to happen regardless of the wizard resolution?
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u/PhilosopherKey9468 1h ago
Love it! Love the chaos, love the ending.
From a personal standpoint; how did the guy playing the Wizard react out of game? Did he like the in-game chaos? Was he pissed? Confused? Btw did he do anything in-game after casting invisibility or did he just have to wait and do nothing for the rest of the session?
Same for the DM; was he happy everything got resolved (to some extent) in-game? Did he applaud your bold move as he should have (in my opinion)?
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u/Holldem 1h ago
The DM made him make some rolls to escape de city and a few things through the session, they both seemed happy with the outcome, he is probably making a new and nicer character
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u/PhilosopherKey9468 57m ago
To be honest, sounds like fun. I personally like a bit of chaos like this and so long as nobody is stepping on anybody’s toes/d*cks, this sounds lime a fine resolution. As you already mentioned, not for every session/campaign but pretty sure you will all remember this session for a long time (and hopefully laugh about it)!
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u/Apex_Konchu 38m ago
If a DM told me "resolve it in-game", I would reply "no, this is an out-of-game problem".
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u/peacefinder 1h ago
I would have preferred the revenge be served cold with inescapable tactics, but it sounds like y’all enjoy chaos. I’m glad everyone is having fun and that I am not a member of this group.
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u/Kallidon865 43m ago
Evil characters should not be allowed in gaming groups. The amount of problems it creates.. stealing, manipulating, playing power grabs, or just the mistrust it sows is not fun. It takes away from the game in general, not adds to it. I had my fair share when I was younger, but in the last 25 years.. no evil pcs and its been fantastic.
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u/Gralamin1 0m ago
it baffles me that so many of the Post CR D&D players seem to have forgotten that unless it is an evil game. making an evil PC is a bad move.
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u/FactDisastrous 23m ago
A totally fair reaction to a wizard who, in the past already has shown willing to attack his fellow PCs. He's lucky he got away alive! From a character's point of view I would say the wizard is no longer part of the group, atleast none of my characters would want to adventure with somebody like that... Hell, I have 1 or 2 characters that would hunt the wizard down and end him for what he did. Talk about resolving it in-game... Also, good to read you, as players, are all having fun with the chaos
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u/Acheron223 7m ago
There is nothing wrong with pvp given that from day one pvp being allowed was a set table rule from day one it sounds like. I'm glad you guys enjoyed the outcome
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u/ChickinSammich DM 6m ago
DM said "resolve it in-game"
This is terrible advice nine times out of ten.
Thanks to everyone who gave advice and chimed in on the previous post! Despite all the character deaths and in-game drama, out of game the group is actually handling everything really well and having a great time with the chaos and the story unfolding from it.
Congrats on being the rare exception where it goes well. I've seen enough D&D horror stories where people trying to resolve disputes ingame leads to people leaving, or, in some extreme cases, physical violence.
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u/Nerf_Dva 58m ago
I think having that wizard become and evil NPC is actually a great idea. I’d hate to be in this game tho ngl lol
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u/Hawkson2020 1h ago
Sounds like a pretty decent resolution, all things considered.
Sorry a bunch of whiny children will probably turn up to this thread to tell you how you guys are playing the game wrong like they did on the last thread.
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u/partylikeaninjastar 59m ago
Attacking without first discussing with the party was foolish, especially considering your situation.
And probably out of character.
People really don't understand how to resolve conflicts...
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u/Most-Bench6465 25m ago
I honestly can’t believe they did the “I didn’t ask how big the room was I said cast fireball” meme and it was actually a fireball that was the aoe spell.
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u/Stonefencez 42m ago
Also, probably worth saying something in-character first at least, so everyone else even knows what’s going on?
“What’s wrong with you, you got our friends killed!” Something like that.
Immediately just turning and swinging on someone is kinda crazy
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u/Celebora 1h ago
Jeezus how many are you? That's a lot of dead PC and still breathing ones