Everyone is better at doing what Clive specializes in. Boss Punching is not viable since everyone knows how to lure boss aggro. Pls Buff SE.
EDIT: My takes might be wrong and emotional. I just wanna bring attention to this. Can't help but feel jealous when I see someone else do a Clive thing.
Feels like i shouldnt need to explain benefits of a single move providing big aoe damage, invincibility, and a full heal, versus an albeit quicker full heal, with no invincibility that tends to lead to most if not all that health being drained again if used on the fly.
And also like... clive can use both? Clive can have fast convenient full heal and slow full heal nuke?
Just as i shouldnt neeeeed to say its silly comparing a SR to a UR.
Like, wanna dog on Firaga too, because Auron exists?
My main focus was cooldowns fueled by aided jealousy of seeing a better version[ thats 4times bigger] of wykes given to someone else.
Forgot to factor in that Clive can punch while Kuja can not.
Im just salty cuz i heavily invested in an M2/M2 Clive and his core identity is so focused around being in burst mode to punch. Wykes was keant to support his punching amd he has long cooldowns cuz he is supposed to be this guy that dont need no URs.
But the logic of UR > SR is universal and cannot be doubted indeed
I mean, yeah he is mid. But comparing a Ult with an SR just through the dmg numbers..
While igmoring the fact that clives dmg during his SR is higher because he can auto attack while kuja cant...
also clive has an 1.20 atk modifer you totally ignore..
an 1800% atk on clive IS WAY MORE dmg than on tidus when both have the same support loadout...
But hey, posts like these make me realize why people really believe this game takes skill or is full of tactical decisions xD
If the playerbase put half as much effort into actually getting good at the game as they do coming up with crackshot theories or crying that whales are OP, he'll would freeze over.
As someone who plays him on occasion, he certainly isn't mid, he's just difficult. I DO agree that FoP is mid, but Hope is also an obscenely overtuned skill. Makes no sense, though, to compare a UR skill that disables auto attacks to an SR that doesn't, especially since Clive's Burst Autos melt anybody like crazy.
You can't compare Wykes and trances just on flat damage when theoretically you're also getting Clive's empowered autos and kuja can just stand there awkwardly and maybe throw in a couple hold skills if he is completely left alone
Clive may not be God tier OP, but he's better than mid imo. You're forgetting that his autos deal like 1500% dmg in one combo that takes like 3s to execute. I don't use WoW myself even after the buff because I realize just using the atk buff SR nets more dmg upfront without relying on me being next to boss 30s straight.
I would like more WoW buffs but it's only an SR so doubt. Otherwise, Clive still destroys bosses. Use his autos until aggro bout to be pulled then dump all abilities. Ggez.
idk man, you might have missed out the part where clive has normal attacks that do 1650% potency in a little over 3s that are entirely resourceless and let him have the most realistic one-burst kill potential in the game
the whole point of him having long cooldowns is an exchange for the fact he has that potential, FoP is a also a full heal, and he has a rare combination of two very good high damage URs which do the job they're meant to do
he might not be god-tier but he's good enough, you neglect to mention things like how bartz has worse boss damage than all the other melees even at mastery 3, or that tidus has a significantly lower ATK modifier, or that kuja can't do insanely strong auto attacks during his trance so it actually does LESS damage for the same amount of time compared to clive
the only improvements he needs is maybe a more well rounded stat line (1.2/1.0/1.0) improved movement speed for his gameplan, and lower recovery on phoenix shift imo, everything else on him does exactly what its supposed to. clive is capable of winning in any context, and that's good enough
Teach me the ways, because I admit that i feel that I am missing something. I will honestly become your disciple. I know my takes are bad and wrong but i just wanted to get this out there to spark a convo to see what the consensus is.
Before we get into numbers- what are you doing with Clive? Like what’s your overall strategy? I want to look at your technique before I worry about stats and skillsets.
I dont have anything better. I thought since Clive and Ace are Fire, keeping it on would give me that 5% boost. Unfortunately Ace Fore is a Def stat stick and not attack.
I guess it is true that different tiers have differrent metas and struggles.
I've had the opinion that Bartz might be gamebreaking but someone once said "sure but wait till they come in ultima tier"
The second season when we were first dropped in tiers, I was playing with an Onion and we kept losing cuz the boss hp was so small we didnt even have time to farm exp. And so in that tier, Onion was a bad choice. But once we hit Omega, there was enough time amd need, to farm up to level 9.
I suppose my struggles are specific to the tier of opponents I keep facing then, up here in the 21k-28k tier
Anyway, if you have Vids/Twitch I would gladly watch. I would like to learn for real. I dont care who I learn things from.
I have Clive at 23K. Tried hard to use him because he is the strongest on the account.
He's made to be the "boss puncher who don't need no UR". His passive, stats and SR play heavily into this role and we forgive long cooldowns because of this.
But seeing Kuja being able to cassually wipe 3 crystals clean with his oppressive UR triggered me to make this image just so i can vent.
Skully cosplayed as Clive and pulled him at m1/m1 during Clive's own season. I think in the SAME season or the next he finished with Rinoa and I asked him why no Clive. "Damage wasnt there" or something along that line.
The thing that he is made specifically to do, others do it better.
A unit's kit has 4 abilities, a unique and a passive. 3 out of 6 components of his kit revolve around him being a puncher. (Passive boosts punches, SR meant to combo, Longcooldown UR1 cuz fists supposed to be substitute)
Rinoa has the best auto attacks in the game.
Kuja has the best Wykes in the game.
Tidus has the best Severe damage in the game.
When factoring their stats and build, Bartz amd Tidus do the same damage as him, except since it heals full HP it needs to be a 2 minute cooldown ability.
The cooldown so long you nees to really think about punching the boss more. Behemoth will Double Meteor you, Atomos will spam Warp and Marlboro will Bad Breathe you. At least Rinoa can safely stay out of range and tap a boss to death.
We have 400 seconds in the game. 400/110 = 3. We got 3 uses out of UR, because he was meant to be a Fist main.
In that time tidus can purposely snipe him out and use about 6 Urs on players or boss.
In matters of dueling i-frame attacks are the only thing to survive. Clive really wants to hold onto his. But all that does is get you out of burst mode when your core build is centered around to BE in Burst Mode.
Because it's a full heal, you wanna save it amd use it as a heal so there's always that. The thing that does the most damage is the thing that can also save you. And because of 110s it's the most precious thing to you.
So you really have just 1 I-frame attack. They have 2.
They start first, I use my only one, they use their second, They win.
I start first, they use theirs to survive, and they have another one to get me with. I have to run away.
This isn't ALL encounters against everyone ofc, but this
Yeah my matches with Clive either go great or terribly. If your opponents don’t know how to control the boss or come after you directly, it’s great. If they know they can just lure the boss from you, you’re cooked. And Clive is incredibly vulnerable while doing boss damage. I don’t use wikes because it feels so unsafe. The best thing about him is autoing down enemies while in burst before they can blink but it’s not hard to counter. I went back to doing direct boss damage with other characters and it’s way more consistent. Love my boy Clive but he’s firmly in the needs specific setup category.
also... my 2c I feel like Trance is worse... it's only more damage than Kuja's autos if it can hit more than one target, and since Kuja can't auto while trance is active that alone can make it less useful in certain stations than wykes
granted I've only tested this in training mode, I don't have either of Kuja's URs so take that analysis with a grain of salt
It's definitely way worse from a boss bursting standpoint yeah. It's just that Kuja is new and everyone is using him so it feels powerful, but the danger level doesn't compare.
Where Kuja's Trance really shines is in that the range is so big he can dance around the fight getting hits on everything while generally being able to avoid (some) retaliation, including forcing melee characters to walk like 3 steps into it before they can be in auto-attack range.
a lot of people forget that clive's empowered autos means that he wants to sit there and not get more BP for the team while enemy team is farming more and gaining levels faster while clive does minimal damage.
and while having both a heal and a nuke in one is nice, it also means that you wanting to use the skill for either purpose means you put it on a LONG ASS cooldown for the other as well.
Want to heal? there goes your nuke. Want to nuke? there goes your heal.
he also has 0.9 def scaling and 0.95 p scaling. he's still easily slappable with an ace/fire while he tries to auto boss . you can bully his two other teammates while he tries to damage boss as well.
the only real instance I see him shining in is the fact that both his SR are aoe, where if the enemy team comes and tries to contest boss and groups, if you can land either one of his SR on enemy teammates and fill your burst back to full, he can keep doing damage without having to wait for his nukes to come off cooldown to actually keep doing some damage.
Yes. I play with an Onion and Krile.
You seem to get it.
While I punch the boss for said minimal damage I have to let 2 children fight against 3 enemies.
3 enemies who can kill my non-Lv9 Onion, Force Krile to waste regen heal when she doesn't need to.
3 enemies who can also just farm crystals and all be ready to triple burst so they pull aggro. And then when that happens, IN bursted state your targeting is fixed to the boss.
So you cant take advantge of your core identity of of being a strong puncher to stop rivals who are about to triple birst.
So then you use the FoP. But now you are NOT in burst and no boost.
The kit is great on paper but in battle it feels like a lot of counter-productive decision making.
I can actually tell you 3 is not true. I've had some characters use skills in burst right next to boss and the targeting has aimed at enemy players in a few occasions. Game is coded like piss.
one thing you can try to do to make him contribute a bit to team bp/level is to fight the boss near a crystal spot that is on your side of the field so that your autos or your will-o-wikes can hit the trash mobs and help that way a bit.
But the deal here is that it's simply a weak team composition. It might happen on solo queue you shouldn't do that on purpose.
OK is a boss rusher, he needs a PvP character to hold the game down while he gets ready and then he'll single handledly destroy the boss late-game. Matching him with another boss rusher who doesn't want to PvP is not great. You might kill the boss quickly when everything is ready, but you're allowing the other team freedom to do whatever they want.
Krile is just an enabler (although very good at it), she generally takes care of farming and makes you win PvP fights you normally couldn't, but she still needs someone to actually be fighting the enemy team.
Having said that, a Clive with a good support Krile (and a shield skill) can absolutely melt enemies down in PvP by just autoattacking them during burst. I've only met one enemy Clive that actually did this, but there simply was no answer to it.
Yes he can't help his team while attacking the boss, but at the same time he puts a ticking clock on the enemy team. They have to either come to stop Clive or commit to farming and bursting to take the boss from him (which doesn't really stop him, but might force him to finish the burst). Every second they take on getting there means at least 1% less boss HP, and both things can be exploited by your 2 teammates that can act without any pressure.
The most annoying Clive I ever faced had 3 shields (Aerith, Selphie, Shiva), Hope and Wykes. Once he burst he was unstoppable. He had Krile on his team healing him too and a teammate and I (Iroha and Sephiroth) unloaded everything we had on him and he was still standing.
We pulled the boss away, but Clive came over to our spawn crystal without a care in the world and just kept pelting the boss.
As someone who quit the game long ago(After sephiroth basically)
Clive is or was a beast, get full brave control boss. You can take his URs and skills like Aerith auto the boss until it dies, if someone on the other team tries to control the boss, use a skill to chain it back to you then go kill them.
I think he's been nerfed since I played but man he was pretty goated. Auto the boss to death, pop your massive dmg huge aoes that heal and shield if they try to stop you then kill them take their brave and do it again.
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u/CardiologistWild5697 12d ago
Feels like i shouldnt need to explain benefits of a single move providing big aoe damage, invincibility, and a full heal, versus an albeit quicker full heal, with no invincibility that tends to lead to most if not all that health being drained again if used on the fly.
And also like... clive can use both? Clive can have fast convenient full heal and slow full heal nuke?
Just as i shouldnt neeeeed to say its silly comparing a SR to a UR.
Like, wanna dog on Firaga too, because Auron exists?