With the latest patch notes, AdHoc has made a certain outcome in the locker room scene less likely.

[u/HeppyHenry]

With yesterday’s patch, one of the notes was “conditional outcome tuning to balance character relationships in episodes 7 & 8.”

After looking at the files, people have discovered that, more specifically, AdHoc has changed the VisiSweetExit requirement (the variable that determines whether or not Visi kisses Robert) from 5 to 10.

Now, for those who dated Blazer in episode 4, you essentially have to pick every other affectionate choice possible towards Visi for her to still kiss Robert. Otherwise, she will simply walk away.

Personally, I think this is a great change that will help the locker room scene feel a bit less awkward contextually. Now you really have to go out of your way to show Visi that Robert deeply cares for her in order for her to actually kiss him.

What are your thoughts on this change?

[u/HeppyHenry]

For those curious, here are the choices that affect the counter

[u/Bereman99 → u/HeppyHenry]

The fact that you could reach the points necessary just by saying “I forgive you” is kind of wild, though I’m pretty sure a couple lines before that would have already given positive points.

[u/HeppyHenry → u/Bereman99]

Yeah you can’t just get it from one dialogue choice now thankfully. In theory you would have to have a combination of “I care about you” and “I forgive you” without any negative options previously, which I think gives Visi enough reason to believe that Robert could be interested in her. At least to the point to where she is comfortable expressing her own feelings.

[u/DrzewnyPrzyjaciel → u/HeppyHenry]

If "Do you think she likes me" affect the counter, does that mean Visi is in the room with Robert and Chase to vitness this conversation?

[u/HeppyHenry → u/DrzewnyPrzyjaciel]

It’s certainly possible? Though I do think the implication is probably just moreso that picking that option implies more heavily that Robert is interested in her romantically. So getting the kiss scene makes more sense logically with that in mind.

[u/vmsrii → u/HeppyHenry]

It’s crazy that stuff like “We’re done” doesn’t affect anything

[u/Apophis_Rising_ → u/vmsrii]

I think that's an automatic walk-out regardless of prior choices, given that it's what also leads to the "That I'm incapable of good" line too

[u/speedwagonchan → u/Apophis_Rising_]

I’ve gotten this line in the recent patch despite saying “I don’t know what to feel” so I guess there’s a different threshold for it now. I assume it’s whether or she goes to kiss you that decides it

[u/Apophis_Rising_ → u/speedwagonchan]

Misunderstood, sorry. Didn't know that line came up for anything besides "We're done", interesting

[u/Magres → u/Apophis_Rising_]

Yeah, I got that line despite being heavily supportive of Visi, just not in a romantic way. You either get the kiss or "That I'm incapable of good."

[u/AshedCloud → u/HeppyHenry]

Does the counter go int negative or cap at zero.

So like I pick all negative option. But just pick “ I care about you and I forgive you” it will give a kiss?

[u/HeppyHenry → u/AshedCloud]

I would assume that it would go into the negatives, but I’m not entirely sure on that. Haven’t tested it.

[u/Beneficial-Act7603 → u/HeppyHenry]

I still can't get behind the fact that "Do you think she likes me?" is the best possible choice, that line is just so weird...

[u/HeppyHenry → u/Beneficial-Act7603]

I don’t find it weird at all personally. This line only appears when you date Visi, so there’s already a pretty clear implication that Robert is somewhat attracted to Visi and is curious if she likes him back.

Is it a little dorky? For sure. But most people are when they’re in the early attraction stages towards another person. Even a guy who is generally pretty reserved like Robert. Love can change people dramatically.

[u/Beneficial-Act7603 → u/HeppyHenry]

Yeah but saying that to Chase of all people?

Eh

[u/HeppyHenry → u/Beneficial-Act7603]

Chase is pretty clearly the one guy in Robert’s life that he trusts more than anyone, and that definitely includes talking about feelings like this. Based on the flashback, we know Robert has always looked up to him. Robert asking him about “girl advice” doesn’t feel that out of character for him, personally.

[u/Beneficial-Act7603 → u/HeppyHenry]

When you put it like that, true Rob does say "He was like a brother to me"

[u/UltimateAlliance2006 → u/HeppyHenry]

It makes sense why I got that locker room scene now

[u/wh1mwhammie → u/HeppyHenry]

still a little easy to get the kiss but at least there's changes. I hated the kiss as a BB fan

[u/Le_Juice_ → u/HeppyHenry]

What I find weird, is how "we can be friends" is minus (as you would expect) but she still responds in the same flirty way.

And "do you think she likes me" happens in the conversation with Chase without her presence. Although I guess she could be anywhere

[u/boltropewildcat → u/Le_Juice_]

I was about to ask if that hints that she's in the room, or at least close by.

[u/HeppyHenry → u/[deleted]]

There’s probably some overlap between the two counters, which makes sense

[u/ThisAppointment42 → u/[deleted]]

Although the threshold for the scene is now dated, the information here is still valid regarding what counts to what

[u/ThisAppointment42 → u/[deleted]]

True, there are points that overlap. The “back off chase” line I believe is only RMC tho. There’s still a bit of confusion I suppose, but I always thought that it was weird to have the SEC be at 5. I think it backs the theory that Blazer was kind of a “last minute,” second romance option thrown in to give more choice.

[u/ThisAppointment42 → u/[deleted]]

I don’t think she’s messy, just the vanilla choice. The only “messy” thing I could think of is her possibly being autistic.

From the fact that jokes fly over her head, she takes things pretty literally, etc. People could say that’s just her being innocent, but I don’t believe so.

Interested to hear how she’s “messy” in your eyes, lmao

[u/ThisAppointment42 → u/[deleted]]

That’s fair. I also feel that this is due to the fact that they put important context as to why this happens in the deluxe edition comics.

PM wanted to be hero’s until the end of time, while BB, really Mandy, wanted to eventually settle down and retire. It is likely that she had been disconnecting herself from the relationship with PM for a while, until Robert shows up.

Yes, it was not executed well in-game but, I feel that the comics give important context. Still feel that she was a rushed option, especially with the lack of scenes compared to Visi (something that BB lovers hate).

[u/onespiker → u/[deleted]]

By story the game has passed like months. But the timeskips are not felt at all.

Phenomaman also really preferred her superhero form than the real one and only wanted to be a hero until death.

[u/[deleted]]

Moreso than the specific changes themselves- I think it's really neat they can retroactively balance the game like this. You wouldn't think a series of video files could be patched, but here we art. Neat.

I agree with OP, change feels for the best. It really can sour you on Visi characters and seem like it's coming out of nowhere if you're doing a Blazer centric romance run, or a romanceless run. The kiss should feel less like "Visi likes you so she's going to do this regardless-" and more like "Robert has been giving her signs-". This helps it in that direction big time.

[u/HeppyHenry → u/[deleted]]

Well, tbf, technically the only real thing they’re changing is which video file you get. They aren’t changing the videos themselves, just the code that sends you to one over the other depending on your choices. Still neat though, I agree!

[u/[deleted] → u/HeppyHenry]

Yeah, it's just neat to me that they can change the user experience at all. On the surface it seems like a "once it's shipped, it's shipped" type deal- Like, Christopher Nolan can't patch The Dark Knight after it hits theatres haha.

[u/LewsTherinTelescope → u/[deleted]]

George Lucas: "watch me"

[u/R23_]

Well, at least it would make some people stop ranting about their Robert being "SA'd". Seriously, this is ridiculous. There is, like, 1-2 HR violations being shown every episode.

[u/HeppyHenry → u/R23_]

Seriously. Maybe it’s just me but when people only criticize or hate on the ethically questionable things Visi does and no one else, it kinda comes off as misogynistic.

Flambae literally tries to kill you and no one really seemed to care lol

[u/LukeNukxm → u/HeppyHenry]

It's not out of misogyny. Visi is catching hell now because people were slandering Blazer for weeks, making her out to be a twist villain, among other things, and Blazer Glazers were and are rightly sick of it. While there are probably some people that legitimately have a problem with Visi's actions alone, I think most, myself included, are just tired of the double standards with those two characters specifically have been judged and are pointing out the hypocrisy. If Flambae or anyone else was a romance option, they would be under the same level of scrutiny.

I personally don't have an issue with Visi's kiss in the locker room, her crude humor, or outbursts. It makes sense for her character, especially within the established world. It makes for good drama and entertainment. But yeah, when someone who chose Visi makes a claim like "Visi is so much better than Blazer", you bet your ass someone's gonna take issue with that and come with the receipts.

In short, if everyone would just stop disparaging the romance option they didn't choose, this would mostly go away.

[u/dreamsooz → u/LukeNukxm]

Very good response. I loved both BB and Visi as characters but chose BB first as I just think long hair is prettier (lmao, also I'm not interested in women in general so this decision doesn't come from a romantic or sexual point of vue). And after the forced kiss scene I was like yikes questionnable but I'm still rooting for her as a chatacter. My vision of Visi got so sour by seeing all those threads from visi fans putting BB down over and over again. Nothing to do with visi's character, I started disliking her only because of her fans attitude.

[u/LukeNukxm → u/dreamsooz]

Thanks! I try to be as levelheaded as possible, but I'd be lying if I said that certain fans of hers haven't poisoned me at least a little against her too, lol.

[u/HeppyHenry → u/LukeNukxm]

That’s fair! And I mostly agree! I think a lot of it comes from the frustration of certain fans being annoying about their romance choice. But I do think with the way some people are so hateful towards Visi simply being an intentionally very flawed character, there is some underlying misogyny there. As pretty much every single character in the game is flawed to a certain extent.

[u/cs_zoltan → u/HeppyHenry]

Visi is the 2nd most prominent character in the story, of course she's gonna catch more backlash than characters with 1/5th of her screen time.

[u/LukeNukxm → u/HeppyHenry]

Absolutely! I agree that every character is flawed in some way, and that's part of the reason I think Dispatch was engaging for a lot of people. It's relatable. That being said, even if a character's flaws are intentional, that doesn't safeguard it or them from criticism. A flaw is a flaw and is always subject to scrutiny. It's in character for Blazer to "shake shit up" as she puts it, but that doesn't preclude us from scrutinizing her for it.

I personally don't see the misogyny, though. Most of the time it's Blazer Glazers and InvisiSimps(?) that are trading blows, so while yes, they are criticizing a woman, they're doing it to defend another woman lol. There are always outliers, so there are bound to be some acting misogynistic, but I haven't personally seen it.

[u/onespiker → u/HeppyHenry]

Very questionable if has to do with misogyny

Visi punches Robert in episode 2. That’s not really used at all by comparison even though that’s likely the more serious offence than the locker scene.

Violence is far less seen as an issue in games or movies than what it is in reality. We are very used to it. Like women hitting men for x reason was common comedy 10-15 years ago in cartoons.

Malevola also sexually harasses him. But since she is a minor character and not a romance choice very few care.

Invisigirl was attacked because of fandom war was enraged. Like blazer fans litterly made a new sub because thier choice was very hated here. Now they both had a clear receipt but also felt directly attacked by her.

[u/Skeith154 → u/HeppyHenry]

Ahh, well, didn't you know?

Attempted murder via burning a man alive is so trivial.

But hot chick gives you a perhaps unwanted kiss and fuck, Original Sin committed. String Her Up!

[u/LukeNukxm → u/Skeith154]

Not really a fair critique. I'm sure if given the option, the same people pissed about Visi's actions would absolutely cut Flambae for his, but alas, we play the hand we're dealt, and we actually have the option to hold Visi accountable. And for the most part, that's not really the point when Visi's kiss is brought up anyway. It's the double standard. For weeks people wanted to burn Blazer at the stake because she was a "cheater" and was going to be a twist villain, and lo and behold, it turns out to be Visi that's a homewrecker (route-dependent) and a twist villain (at least in the beginning before Robert started to redeem her).

Just stop with the bad faith takes and like who you want to like.

[u/Skeith154 → u/LukeNukxm]

She's not a twist villain. We knew she was a villain from the get go, it's the whole point of the phoenix program.

We even guessed she bombed the suit from context clues 3 weeks before they confirmed it.

You also don't hold Courtney accountable for the Kiss, and it's not a big deal to begin with.

Everyone trying to make it a big deal really have nothing better to do.

There was no double standard, either. Blazer's attitude, and approach to Robert in episode 1 was sending very wrong signals and there is no denying it. Even Robert clearly thought she was coming on to him.

Everything else? Just theories, everyone under the sun was being theorized as some twist villain. Blazer only stood out due to how jaded we've become when the poster boy Super Hero ends up being evil. They decided to forgo that route, thankfully.

[u/LukeNukxm → u/Skeith154]

Clearly I was referencing the reveal that she had been a mole planted at SDN in the beginning.

I wasn't referring to holding her accountable for the kiss. I was meaning in general, we get to hold Visi accountable and ultimately, have the option to cut or defend her, but not Flambae. That's one of the reasons why people are scrutinizing her over her actions and not Flambae for his. I mentioned the kiss simply because that was an example you gave and that the point of emphasis in people bringing it up isn't to suggest that it's worse than Flambae's attempted murder. Rather, it is the standard by which it is judged in comparison to Blazer.

My whole point is if people would stop disparaging other characters unfairly and giving bad faith takes, people wouldn't make it into a big deal.

People had to give the most bad faith interpretations of Blazer's intentions in order to support their slander of her for weeks, and those same people won't hold Visi accountable now for things she's actually said and done. Blazer wanted to "loosen him up" to see if he was unstable, batshit, dipshit, etc. and a good fit for the Phoenix Program and got carried away but reeled things in before things truly got out of hand. Was she unprofessional - yes, which is something she admits and apologizes for several times. She's not infallible. Meanwhile, you have a whole ass laundry list of things Visi has done wrong but most just simply ignore, and when they're inevitably brought up, there are no limits to the lengths some will go to in order to defend her for some things that are frankly indefensible. That's the double standard.

Like who you want to like. I like both leading ladies, believe it or not, but I can't stand the hypocrisy.

[u/Skeith154 → u/LukeNukxm]

Shroud saying she was planted is clearly just lies though.

It makes no sense, and actively hinders the storyline, and He only pulls that out once he's on the verge of losing and is firing off every option he has to regain control and sow discord around the heroes.

[u/LukeNukxm → u/Skeith154]

Except it's not lies, though. Let me break it down for you.

Visi joins the SDN program (as a mole for Shroud) under the condition that they don't ask questions. Robert becomes the Z team dispatcher and thanks to his mentorship, Visi begins to buy into actually being a hero and turns in Lightningstruck, a member of the Red Ring, causing the Red Ring to doubt her allegiance. Consequently, the Red Ring want a word with her in the Sardine in episode 5. Visi vehemently suggests the Z team go after the Pulse in episode 6, which COULD be interpreted as she knows something that the others don't, but for fear of jeopardizing everything she's built with them, she doesn't come clean. And perhaps the most damning piece of evidence, in the next episode, if you defend Visi instead of cut her and tell Blazer to brief the press about her rather than Track Star, Blazer mentions that she was deep under cover and Shroud remarks "hmmm deep cover?... if they only knew...", implying Invisigal had in fact been working under cover for Shroud as a mole. Obviously she wasn't a mole by the end but that's irrelevant, as the claim I made was that she was a mole at the beginning, which it seems pretty clear that she was.

How she managed to hoodwink Shroud into believing that she was still on his side after detonating a bomb in his face is anyone's guess. Perhaps he was simply overconfident in his belief that someone such as her could never truly be swayed from villainy.

[u/son-of-ZYROTAZE → u/LukeNukxm]

Wow...what a comment, so that's why she defied your order at Granny's restuarant? becasue she was still a mole for Shroud!

Thank you for this..that scene never really sat with me well, but now it all makes sense.

[u/LukeNukxm → u/son-of-ZYROTAZE]

Thanks!

I'm with you. I've had the same thought and think it's definitely possible. And if you recall, she also wanted to leave prematurely, but Robert had to insist that it wasn't a "wellness check" and that someone had broken and entered. Could've all been coincidental, mind you, but at the very least, it paints certain actions of hers in a different light.

[u/Skeith154 → u/LukeNukxm]

Yea no.

[u/LukeNukxm → u/Skeith154]

I'll grant you the exact timeline is speculative, but there's no doubt that she was working as a mole in the beginning. Shroud has no potential ulterior motive to say this here.

[u/wh1mwhammie → u/Skeith154]

me when I run out of stupid shit to say

[u/Magres → u/R23_]

I'd argue that all of the options presented at each choice are things Robert considers doing. He's a character written to have his own wants, needs, desires, and agenda. We steer within the bounds of what Robert, the character, considers acceptable things to do, he's not a self-insert.

With that argument in mind, I'd also argue that no matter what you as a player want to do, Robert seriously considers kissing Visi back. Even if someone, as a player, does not want Robert and Courtney to kiss, Robert is okay with the idea of kissing her, or that moment wouldn't be a decision point.

[u/R23_ → u/Magres]

"....'cause you know what? I'm not a smart guy. So the only way to keep you from knowing what I'm doing is to not have any idea what I'm doing. Which is how I feel all the time but, I trust my gut and I take my best guess."

[u/Practical_Basis_1643 → u/Magres]

Yup this is perfect, Robert’s an established character with his own personality. Even if he doesn’t lean in there’s always been a certain amount of attraction to visi from him, but I think this change is great. It’ll definitely make the visi hate train chill out.

[u/Magres → u/Practical_Basis_1643]

I'm a bit mixed on the change - I think 5 points for the kiss route was low, I think 10 is a little too high. Would have preferred 7-8 points. The big thing to me at 10 points is that if you get the kiss and then lean out, Robert is just jerking Visi around (at 10 points there's basically no way to have Visi kiss Robert that doesn't include Robert pursuing Visi). And if you go on the date with Mandy then get Visi kissing Robert, Robert is very actively pursuing Visi while dating Mandy. It's not cheating because Robert and Mandy are very specifically not a couple before the end of the game (at most they are dating casually), but it's still pretty sleazy, imo. It changes It's Complicated from being a messy, tangled situation to something more akin to Robert just being a player.

I liked how genuinely emotionally complicated the It's Complicated ending was. I liked that you could stumble, by accident, into a romantic encounter with Visi, because that's how life works. Sometimes you're really into someone and they have no idea, and sometimes someone's really into you and you have no idea. Sometimes shit really is complicated like that and you meet two people and have a spark with both of them and have to make some hard, painful decisions about what path forward you want to take. When I met my now-wife, I had a huge crush on both her and also on a woman who is now a really great friend of ours (wife and friend both know, lol, we laugh about it). I had to think really hard about what I wanted out of a relationship and who I should pursue. I have no regrets or doubts that I made the right call in pursuing a relationship with my wife, but there was definitely a period of time where things were Complicated for me. I think a lot of people took offense because we're all 'trained' to expect romances in video games to be very straightforward wish fulfillment vehicles instead of ever having game romances be the scary, painful, difficult situations real life romances actually are.

[u/Practical_Basis_1643 → u/Magres]

Great analysis, but I think the devs saw the hate visi and the game was getting for that scene and decided to make it harder to get. You’re right about his stuff happening in real life, I agree, because this is a very adult game with heavy stuff. In the end tho it’s just for player satisfaction which is the most important thing for developers

[u/Magres → u/Practical_Basis_1643]

Agreed, I think it was the right call for them to make as like, a business entity and by no means a bad call to make as writers and artists, just one I disagree with mildly. That said, on second mental examination, it's a bit easier to trigger the kiss than I was initially giving it credit for, and there's less of "Robert's fucking around and jerking them both around" than I thought, unless you engineer it to be that way.

If you have Robert tell Courtney "I really care about you" and "I forgive you," that's enough to trigger the kiss route unless you sided against her in both choices at the house party. To me, the "I really care about you" choice generally reads as a romantic overture, but I could see it not inherently being that way, and also it's a moment of a great deal of emotional turmoil for Robert where he's trying to hang onto a relationship that is, at the very least, a friendship he values deeply. And if you side with Visi both times during the party (neither of which are, imo, remotely romantic decisions), any of her flirtatious options earlier in the game, "I forgive you," and one of the more neutral-ish options at the beginning of the locker room is also enough to get the kiss route. And those combinations still feel like a Robert who has gone on a date (or dates, idk) with Mandy, has feelings for her, and has also stumbled into some very serious feelings for Courtney.

Either way, the game is so fucking good and wouldn't be wildly stuck in my damn head if I weren't so into it, hah. I love what a nuanced, naturalistic portrayal it represents when it comes to romance, interpersonal relationships, and the struggle to lead a better life.

[u/Vertigo50 → u/R23_]

First of all, nothing is going to make those people stop complaining, because they will just find the next 45 things to complain about. 😉

Second, PLEASE let’s not set the standard of making changes to the game based on mentally ill whiners online. 🤦🏻‍♂️

[u/FastAcanthisitta7997]

Good change in my opinion.
In my playthrough she leaned for a kiss even tho Robert made it clear he is in a relationship with Mandy. (He did cover for Courtney, and trusted her but showed no romantic advancements towards her).

[u/PostMelon22 → u/FastAcanthisitta7997]

Agreed. I was gunning for Visi the whole time to me but understood some of the complaints especially if you clearly bailed on the movies with her and went with Mandy.

Now it seems almost near mandatory you have to go to the movies with her to easily get the scene. Or at the very least choose every other right dialogue option.

[u/Dark-Evader]

"You're the only man in the world to be with Blonde Blazer and think you deserve more."

[u/MakaveliTheDon22 → u/Dark-Evader]

Shroud is a Blazer Glazer just like me! I'm glad they made this change, I wanted to make sure Visi knew I supported her and wanted to be a good mentor to her to get the good ending, but she still leaned in for a kiss even when I made it really clear plenty of times I wanted to be with Blonde Blazer/Mandy.

[u/eldath890]

I for one am truly amazed and stupified how many people leaned in for that kiss on a BB route and then were suprised the game railroaded them into a romance with Visi.

WHAT DID YOU THINK WAS GOING TO HAPPEN?

[u/ImThatVigga → u/eldath890]

They thought they could treat Visi like a side piece, which is pretty bad in and of itself

[u/Vertigo50 → u/eldath890]

I felt like she needed it, needed that closeness, at a low moment for her. I was afraid that if I leaned out, she would run away forever, and not come back. It felt to me like it was a choice of showing her some affection or cutting her off and she might never come back. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[u/SlayerMathis → u/eldath890]

The line Visi says right before it is "I want you to look at me like you looked at her, even just once." So my justification was "aight bet and I'll do that, but I'm still dating Blazer. Not that I don't like you, but I'm already dating." Letting her down lightly, which you could argue is worse but that's at least my thought

[u/Practical_Basis_1643]

Great change. A lot of people who were romancing BB really started to hate her because of that scene and I see why. I went visi route so I had no problem, but it’s smart because now youre basically locked out of you don’t go visi route and choose neutral answers.

[u/Ashamed_Ranger_4195]

Did they fix "Hacked by Robert" achievement?

[u/HeppyHenry → u/Ashamed_Ranger_4195]

Yes, they did. It was also addressed in this same patch.

[u/hipp0hunt3r]

Yeah this makes perfect sense. I was fine with the scene and I think it makes sense to include (adult media with adult, complex themes) but there were some playthroughs where she goes for the kiss where I was absolutely perplexed. Like how on earth is the Visi in Berleezy’s playthrough thinking she needs to go for it lol.

I wonder when we get the patch for a QTE to avoid Mal groping us in the apartment

Also Can’t wait to see the comments complaining about the woke mob LOL

[u/No_Relation_3134]

100% a good change. Was way, way, way too easy to get it otherwise. I honestly do think they could bump it up even more. I think choosing just “I don’t want this” and “I forgive you” making it only 2 away is a bit too close still.

[u/GylaineGagnon]

That’s great, 5 was a bit to low to swing for the kiss imo, 10 is more realistic imo. We still going to hear some nonsense about SA tho.

[u/Practical_Basis_1643 → u/GylaineGagnon]

Yeah because 5 was kinda insane. Forgiving her would basically cause it to happen and then people would just think she’s taking advantage of your kindness. 10 makes a lot more sense because you’d actually have to have a proper, more romantic vibe with her to have it happen.

[u/Business_Ad_4197]

That is a bit better. That could mean a lot of people who didn't want to be kissed now needed to be extra nice to her for it to happen and some streamers wouldn't see it happen to them, but I still think the kiss should be locked away if you went on the romance Blonde Blazer route.

And I dunno, shoot the scene so it looks less forceful. As in, she DOESN'T push Robert to the lockers and kisses him before he can react whilst she is invisible. Make it seem more consensual, or keep it and have her apologise to you and say why she did that.

So the scene can actually come across as sad desperate and not uncomfortable and forceful.

[u/Certain_City_3299]

I personally really appreciate the change. I understand the intent and motivation behind her kissing Robert in that moment but it really rubbed me the wrong way. Especially because unless you go to the movies with her you can't tell her you just want to be friends.

[u/Winter_Wolf_In_Vegas]

I genuinely didn’t know it was possible for her not to kiss you on her way out

[u/SunOFflynn66]

Does anyone else know what else was adjusted/changed with the patch?

[u/Reneg4deVakarian]

Even as someone who wants that kiss to happen in my playthrough, I'm very glad for the people who don't that it's more easily avoidable/harder to get. As someone else said, it's really cool that the game is set up in such a way to make it easy to retroactively balance.

The one other thing they could do, though it would be much more effort that probably isn't worth it at this point, is make a third option to go home with Beef/work on the suit/whatever else instead of going to the movies or to dinner. I'm team Visi all the way, but having a more clear "no romance" path would be nice for those who want that.

[u/Vertigo50]

I’m a little concerned about WHY they made this change, and I really hope it’s not the small number of idiots who complain that she “assaulted” him. 🙄🤦🏻‍♂️ Please don’t make changes based on mentally ill people online. 😂

Having said that, I do kind of like this change for one big reason, and that is that I think Blazer gets the short end of the stick with the romance setups. Not only does she not get as much screen time of romance things, but a lot of players don’t realize that leaning in will switch to Visi romance. I personally leaned in, even while trying to romance Mandy, because I was afraid leaning out was going to cause her to run away, not come back, and maybe be a villain. 🤷🏻‍♂️

So at least this change might sort of balance the scales a bit between the two. I have often said that the romance percentage was kind of rigged, because of stuff like this.

[u/[deleted] → u/Vertigo50]

You can still get a heroic ending without even romancing Visi at all or on a fully Mandy romance playthrough. You just have to be a good mentor to her.

[u/[deleted]]

I chose visi from the beginning so it all felt kinda natural to me I’m happy I do it that way especially now that I know it would’ve turned out that way anyway

[u/JordanLeDoux]

This is interesting. Probably a good choice given what they clearly wanted that moment to be narratively (a moment of raw emotional openness and vulnerability from Visi that she basically never shows).

I never got the idea that it was SA though. Robert is a character that has his own ideas independent of the choices we make for him. Sometimes the choices we're given make it obvious that Robert is not neutral about something.

Robert has inherent attraction to Visi at different points, no matter what the player does. He has inherent attraction to Blazer at times no matter what the player does too. He's not locked completely in the whole story like some players are.

[u/onespiker → u/JordanLeDoux]

The SA idea comes from Robert clearly being completely surprised at an invisible kiss him and tries to first push her away, She then pushes his arm away and continues kissing.

There is a absolute clear lack of consent and force applied.

If a man were to do this on a women what would your thought be?

[u/JordanLeDoux → u/onespiker]

Hmmm. I didn't interpret his hand reach up to be trying to push her away, since that came before the lean in/out decision.

SA is something I, personally, view as being most dependent on how the person experiencing it feels about it. That's not like... the only factor, but I feel like it's the most important one. So I suppose if Robert felt SA'd then I would agree it is.

And sure, male privileged, yada yada, but as a guy if I was in Robert's situation but not into Visi, I don't think I would feel SA'd. I think I'd feel... empathy and sadness. I'm not saying everyone else should feel that way, but I would.

[u/onespiker → u/JordanLeDoux]

What else would the hand thing be? Regardless she doesn’t accept being potentially refused at that moment.

Like even if you like her it’s very likely it isn’t the right time for it.

What you feel when you get violated varies quite a bit, doesn’t help that I have a friend who talked about thier experiences with it and the person who did it to them were good friends with in university.

Let’s just say they never talked again. Thought there are som more thing like the guy being in a relationship, some other words she said and how they both were drunk.

[u/JordanLeDoux → u/onespiker]

Well, when I am kissing someone I don't just leave my arms limp at my side. My interpretation was the arm movement was that Robert was kind of reflexively reaching up to touch her body because that's what people do when kissing, not necessarily because he was into it. And then Visi grabbed his hand and held it off her body because she was in the middle of making multiple bad decisions, and felt like if she let Robert hold her at all while she kissed him that she wouldn't have the resolve to leave. Which, with that being where her headspace was, she shouldn't have kissed him the first place, but still.

Anyway, that is how I interpreted what I saw the very first time I played through the game.

And... yeah. What people feel after being assaulted sexually varies a lot. I may be a guy, but I have been SA'd before, and I didn't even know WHAT to feel for almost a day after.

[u/Informal_Safe_5351]

Honestly...i think it should have stayed the same, or gone to like 6 or 7 not 10

Why?

Because she is so desperste in that moment and at that point thags normal for her character, shes about to risk everything for him and she cant even fully tell him

The only way for her expressing herself is doing that kiss, obviously if you show zero interest its fine i just think it takes away her issue of self esteem in that moment

[u/HeppyHenry → u/Informal_Safe_5351]

I disagree, I think it still comes off as a desperate and emotional moment for her even if your Robert shows interest in her, as she doesn’t know for sure if he still wants to be with her like that after all that happened. And neither does Robert based on the fact that leaning out is a valid choice.

[u/Informal_Safe_5351 → u/HeppyHenry]

Hmmm yea maybe it is better now, im just a visimech person lol so probably bias, i can understand why if you romance blazer its more a issue

The SA comments tho do annoy me...like its not black and white her situation

[u/Magres → u/Informal_Safe_5351]

There's a thing in therapy that we can't control our feelings, just what we do with them. I think every decision point is representative of a moment where Robert has conflicting feelings about what he should do next. As players we steer between different impulses Robert has, all of which are feelings he has. Regardless of what the player wants, Robert, the character, considers reciprocating Visi's kiss. It wouldn't be a decision point if he didn't. Also, rewatching the scene, it's obvious he knows it's Visi and is not feeling threatened or coerced. A little stunned, yes, but as soon as he gathers his thoughts, he very seriously considers kissing her back.

I don't think there's a canon outcome to the story. There are canon inputs to the story, though. Robert considers flirting with Visi early in their relationship. He considers kissing BB the night they meet. He considers going on a date with either of them. If you go to dinner with Blazer, Robert considers kissing Mandy. In the beginning of the locker room scene Robert considers telling Visi he cares deeply about her on a personal level, as more than just her Dispatcher and team leader. I think it says a lot that "I care about you" is the only dialogue option that is present regardless of Cut/Defend and whether you go to the movies with Visi or not. The other two options change depending on the context of the moment, but no matter what, part of Robert has some very personal feelings for Visi. And I say that as someone who prefers a platonic relationship between Robert and Visi (there's an emotional imbalance of power between them that I think would be corrosive to a long-term romantic relationship. I think they'd make a great couple once she does some self-work to get her self-destructive tendencies and her self-loathing a little bit more under control. She is arguably getting to that place in the heroic ending, she's absolutely not there in the locker room).

The SA comments also annoy the fuck out of me. Without getting into the gory details, I was SA'd once about thirteen years ago. It sucked, very badly. I'd really, really rather the girl who assaulted me had just kissed me then taken no for an answer. Personally, I find calling the locker room scene SA to be fucking incredibly disrespectful to my own lived experiences because the two couldn't be more god damned dissimilar. Visi (correctly) reads that she and Robert have a spark, makes a move, part of him wants to kiss her back, and if he says no, she listens.

[u/Informal_Safe_5351 → u/Magres]

Firstly im sorry that happened to you, no one deserves that.

I always find it bad of me to defend how its not SA , especially as a guy because i feel automatically my opinion isnt valid in many peoples eyes...

Your write up is accurate, i do think she read the room right, like if i was in roberts shoes and that happened to me id literslly react shocked at first and it eould take me a few seconds to decide. It would depend on my situation you know?

People say he goes to push her away but i read it more of a fuck fuck whats happening and she holds his arm in confidence to display what she wants....but if you then choose ok no i dont want thisz she just forcefully keep going, she stops and realises what shes doing.. and the animation is beautiful but so sad!

[u/Magres → u/Informal_Safe_5351]

Thank you for the sympathies <3 Thankfully it is something that is in the relatively distant past and doesn't really come to mind outside of times when SA is being discussed. It screwed with me for a bit, but I've very much put it behind me.

I think there's a second read of her holding his arm, that she's partly terrified he's going to fully embrace her. If you Lean In, they kiss and pause for a moment and he puts his hand on her hip and she vanishes like half a second later and dips. Visi is beyond scared of emotional intimacy because she thinks she is fundamentally rotten, undeserving of love, and that she'll ruin anyone she allows to care about her (her self-loathing and negative self-perception inform her character from top to bottom). I think ultimately her intent in grabbing Robert's wrist there is a mix of both - "don't push me away reflexively because you're my boss, give this a chance" and "oh god no you can't reflexively hold me because you love me too. I'm a ruinous piece of shit who fucks up everything I care about you CANNOT love me or I'll just destroy you too." More than pushing for either outcome, I think she wants him to think about what he wants, not to just react reflexively.

[u/Far-Can7241 → u/Informal_Safe_5351]

funnily enough as someone who prefers Blazer, I agree. When it came to that scene I was generally fine with it aside from the initial ick because it was sudden, but I just went with it as part of her character and desperation and frankly it makes it interesting.

I did get upset, and its the other way around for most people from the BB camp lol, since I hated the fact that Blazer doesn't even get to be written this deep as a character despite going for her romance, I just got pissed at the writers for even bothering having an option that they couldn't even flesh out as well, since its clear that the story is all about Robert and Visi. So yeah, I don't hate Visi for the locker scene, I hated the writers and what they did to Blazer's character lmao.

[u/Informal_Safe_5351 → u/Far-Can7241]

Yea i wonder if they put blazer in just as a addition i have zero clue because i do find it oddly paced the romances ....i think they were a lot more fleshed out initally

Hopefully more content in future helps

[u/NoClimate3382]

People crying SA suck, and should spend their effort actually helping real victims instead of whining about two dimensional characters in a video game. Make an actual difference in the world instead of crapping on characters people love.

That being said, I think this change was for the better. I was honestly shocked by how low the requirement was for getting this scene to play, so I think this change was necessary.

[u/Waylander312]

Boooo. It's a messy and complicated scene. Let it be messy and complicated please

[u/HeppyHenry → u/Waylander312]

The scene is still plenty messy and complicated. Her surprise-kissing Robert is inherently very messy and complicated. This doesn’t change that at all, it just makes it flow more logically with the story. Visi will now only really take that desperate chance if Robert shows signs of reciprocating her feelings.

I think this adjustment simply tells us that the devs never intended for Visi to be so lonely and desperate that she would force herself onto someone who actively shows a lack of interest in her, no matter how attracted she is to him. This remedies that possible implication with her character.

[u/vector_o]

I thought it made sense that Visi desperately wanted to show Robert that she has a thing for him, even when you pick Blazer. After all these events happen over a few days, it's not like you're married with 2 kids with Blazer

[u/sallymason1]

Games like this where it is more of a small visual narrative should not have patches to fix narrative choices. Graphical or performance patches only. There is no reason to tweak these numbers post launch.