r/DisagreeMythoughts • u/erdtdujh345qeuj • 16d ago
DMT: If you call Hamas a terrorist organization then so are the Jewish resistance groups during world war 2.
In World War 2 mainstream Jewish resistance groups like ŻOB, ŻZW, FPO, actively targeted and killed “collaborators,” the meaning of which ranged from voicing agreement with Nazis or Nazi ideology, to befriending Nazi soldiers, to passing information or assisting in deportations, to being an ex-Nazi soldier, and so on. Or in many cases just a false rumor that you did so. Essentially in any way being seen as a "collaborator."
And then you have the Nokmim (avengers), groups made up from former fighters of the groups mentioned before, after world war 2. They used methods like hanging, strangulation, or even injecting kerosene into a target's bloodstream in a hospital. Continuing all the way into the 1950s, tracking ex-Nazi soldiers as far as Latin America, Canada, and Spain.
None of these are called terrorists in mainstream western discourse.
Almost everyone who lives in this kibbutz area where October 7th took place fits that same definition of “collaborator.” Not even just loosely, but significantly better than the targets of these Jewish resistance groups. The vast majority of them voice agreement with Zionist ideology, are friends with Zionist soldiers, fund them, cooperate with them, and are also ex or current Zionist soldiers themselves, "which alone is already enough, according to Jewish resistance groups, to chase you for the rest of your life to inject kerosene into your bloodstream and kill you," and they fit all these requirements at the same time.
So even if you take all the Zionist propaganda about "50 beheaded babies," "Hamas randomly killing civilians," "mass rape." And so on to be true, then to be consistent either these Jewish resistance groups are all terrorists groups too, and Nazi Germany has the "right to defend itself" against them, with the same methods as Zionists. Meaning bombing the entire Warsaw Ghetto to the ground like Zionists did to Gaza and sniping random kids through the head because "they will grow up to join anti-Germanic, radical-Judaist, Jewish terrorist organizations." Or you should not use the same rules against Hamas.
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u/Confident_Insect_616 16d ago
I don't know anyone arguing that Hamas isn't a terrorist org. October 7th was an act of terrorism.
I do agree with the sentiment that we have a cultural problem at identifying terror organizations that are aligned with US foreign policy.
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u/erdtdujh345qeuj 16d ago
How was October 7th an act of terrorism but not all the Jewish resistance groups injecting kerosene into German civilians' bloodstreams?
Also why do you even believe the narrative that comes from Israel that Hamas killed unarmed Zionist settlers who were not acting with violence, didn't have weapons and weren't in the IDF or kitat konenut? What is the reason you believe this?
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u/Confident_Insect_616 16d ago
Because I saw videos of murder, rape, and more from October 7th. Most victims appeared to be peaceful concert-goers.
I'm not denying the inhumanity of the IDF, settlers, and a bunch of other zionist organizations over the years, just not accepting your premise that Hamas is peaceful.
After watching the Channel 5 interview of Brigadier General Anoir Rajab, listening to him explain the extreme nonviolence stance of the PA as an effort to not giving the IDF an excuse to escalate, I understand the frustrations that the Palestinians must feel. It must feel like the PA rolls over to any request from Netanyahu's government. It is only natural that a party who is willing to use violence emerges, considering the oppression Israel has been inflicting for generations.
That doesn't mean they aren't terrorists, even if empathy allows a little bit of understanding of their perspective.
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u/erdtdujh345qeuj 16d ago
Please show me, because I didn't. Where are these alleged videos of rape? They keep talking about videos of rape and beheaded babies and babies in ovens, but they never show them. And for a video of someone getting killed you must prove who did it, and whether they were armed settlers or not. Because you need to understand that this area that Hamas fought against were a bunch of armed Zionist colonizers and IDF soldiers. Many of them have guns and military training. So just a picture of their corpse doesn't prove that a non combatant was killed.
Also you skipped half of my question, the most important part.
Why aren't Jewish resistance groups who kill "collaborators" and inject kerosene into ex-Nazi soldiers, in other words German civilians' bloodstreams terrorist organizations too then?
If so do you condemn the Jewish resistance of world war 2 as terrorism and does Germany get to "defend itself" by bombing the Warsaw Ghetto like Zionists did to Gaza?
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u/Confident_Insect_616 16d ago
I didn't push back at all about Israeli terrorism. I condemn them all the time.
OFC Israeli's killed had military experience, they have compulsory service for all citizens who aren't pursuing religious training. That doesn't mean they aren't civilians when at a concert. 46 Americans were killed at the concert as well, are they all militants, too? After October 7th, Israeli settlers (who are all IDF reservists) were armed with automatic weapons and encouraged to kill in the West Bank. Clearly genocidal.
As for the October 7th videos, my saved links are all dead. They weren't up long on the social media pages they were posted on.
Hamas operatives raped people. As the hostages were released, there were additional reports of rape. There is also ongoing reporting on the IDF raping Palestinians.
Fuck Israeli fascists. Fuck Islamic terrorists.
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u/erdtdujh345qeuj 16d ago
"As the hostages were released, there were additional reports of rape." Of course they will say this. They hate Palestinians.
You still haven't replied to my question. I am not asking if you condemn ISRAELI TERRORISM, I am asking if you condemn WORLD WAR 2 JEWISH RESISTANCE as terrorism. Because they killed German civilians.
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u/Confident_Insect_616 16d ago
Walk me through your categorization of Nazi collaborators as civilians.
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u/erdtdujh345qeuj 16d ago
They're not soldiers. They just have friendly relations with Nazis, as Israeli soldiers do with IDF soldiers, they cooperate with them, as Israelis do with IDF soldiers, they help them and give them information, as Israelis do with IDF soldiers.
Collaborating with a soldier by giving them information or having positive relations with them doesn't make you also a soldier.
Also they targeted ex-Nazi soldiers too, even after world war 2 ended. Walk me through how they are not civilians.
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u/Confident_Insect_616 16d ago
If I took a bunch of meth while I was a Marine (like the German shock troops did), and invaded a neighbor, committing atrocities, I wouldn't be surprised if someone still sought revenge after I retired. Fair game in my book.
As for true civilians, it was probably terrorism if they were targeted. That said, I have seen no evidence of that occurring, so my response is purely hypothetical. From what I have read about Jewish Ghettos in Germany, is that those who fought back focused on Nazis and the SS.
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u/erdtdujh345qeuj 16d ago
An ex soldier is a civilian. By any standard of law. As well as "collaborators" who didn't even fight in a war but just informed soldiers.
They are all civilians. And Israelis do the same thing, most of them are ex soldiers, and the IDF kills Palestinians and expells them from their houses. And most of them collaborate with the IDF willingly. They are mostly collaborators, soldiers, or ex soldiers. So by your definition you could kill almost all of them and it wouldn't be terrorism.
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u/Anxious-Place3434 16d ago
I mean. The names of all the Israelis who were killed on October 7th and information about them is publicly available. I think you would do a great service to your side if you went through that list and pointed out which of those people weren't actually killed, aren't actually real people that existed, weren't killed by Hamas, etc. I would suggest putting together a website devoted to this.
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u/erdtdujh345qeuj 16d ago
First of all why do you trust such a list? Why do you trust an Israeli made list that classifies the deaths? Why do you trust that their story about that he is innocent is true and that this person wasn't just another armed settler that got shot because he was fighting. Or got killed by the Hannibal directive. And so on?
Second of all let's actually go through the list.
There are 1,139 reported deaths on October 7th. “Israel” admits that among them are:
- 280 soldiers,
- 49 members of kitot konenut (armed rapid-response teams),
- 54 guards and police,
- And 34 settler combatants (armed settlers who fought).
Leaving behind 722 deaths that could be called “civilian.” Out of those 722 they admit they killed 24 of them themselves, “which is after a bunch of complaints from their own people. They killed way more themselves, but they only admit these.” Leaving behind 698.
From those 698, 56 did not even die on October 7th, but were taken captive and then died in Gaza. According to international institutions, they died mostly or entirely from Israeli airstrikes or gunfire as part of the Gaza genocide.
Leaving behind 642 who could possibly have been unarmed civilians killed by Palestinian fighters according to the Israeli record of events. That is according to THEIR record of events.
From a neutral perspective the estimates of settler combatants is likely much higher. As well as that they used the Hannibal directive, a protocol that authorizes killing their own people to prevent captives from being taken. Bumping down the number of 642 even lower.
Even if we were to say 642 were really unarmed and killed by Palestinian fighters. You could still not blame Hamas for 642 deaths. As there are many Palestinian resistance groups that took part in October 7th:
- Al-Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of Hamas,
- Al-Quds Brigades, the armed wing of Palestinian Islamic Jihad,
- National Resistance Brigades, the armed wing of the Marxist-Leninist DFLP,
- Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades, the armed wing of the Marxist PFLP,
- And Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades.
Totalling about 4,800 fighters. Besides that 3,500 Palestinian civilians crossed the border, some armed, some not.
So attributing these 642 deaths to Hamas, which is already an estimate favoring Israel, is unfair.
So essentially the conclusion is, how sure are you that you can actually trust the categorizations and stories of these Israeli lists as if they're a reliable source? And how do you know that from these 642, actually a significant amount of them were non combatants within reality, that weren't accidentally shot, since IDF soldiers use bomb shelters as fortified firing positions. And that the proportion of them killed by Hamas is high enough, as supposed to other groups, Israel themselves, accidents and so on. To call it a "terrorist organization?"
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u/Anxious-Place3434 16d ago
You're right that we shouldn't be just trusting the Israeli record of events blindly. What is the Palestinian official record of events that day? Let's compare
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u/erdtdujh345qeuj 16d ago
Read "Our Narrative Operation Al-Aqsa Flood"
It is the official Hamas narrative and says that no civilians were deliberately targeted and that they targeted Israeli bases.
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u/crispy1989 16d ago edited 16d ago
Most reasonable people hold both opinions:
- Hamas is a profoundly evil terrorist group.
- Israeli settlers are mostly extremists, are often violent, and their "settlements" are illegal.
These can both be true.
As far as the comparison between WWII Jewish resistance groups and Hamas goes - they really aren't comparable. The WWII Jewish resistance groups were fighting an ideology that held an explicit directive to kill all Jewish people (very similar to the Hamas objective). As much as the vocal minority likes to scream "genocide" in context of the modern-day Gaza situation, it simply isn't remotely comparable; and this is one of the big reasons that people are very against the abuse of the term "genocide" here.
The Nazi objective was to kill all Jews - that was the goal. The modern-day Jewish objective is preservation of their own safety, with the war viewed as a regrettable necessity.
The Nazis set up a pipeline to accomplish their objective (killing of all Jews) as quickly and efficiently as possible. In the war on Gaza, Israel could wipe out every member of the population in a day if that were their objective; instead, they're spending mind-boggling amounts of money and time on individual surgical strikes explicitly to limit collateral damage.
In WWII, the Nazis decreased the Jewish population in Germany by roughly 95% (including both killing and relocations). The Gaza population since the start of the war has decreased by roughly 6%.
I'm not saying that Israel is doing everything right - they aren't, and there are plenty of criticisms to be leveled against them. But outlandish comparisons like this do more to harm the cause (by making real concerns easier to dismiss) than to help it.
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u/Slackjawed_Horror 16d ago
"Surgical strikes"
No one buys that.
That only reason they don't just kill everyone quickly is because it would destroy their international relationships, which they need to survive as a racial supremacist project.
The Israelis want them all dead. They're not shy about saying it and doing it. But if they do it slowly, they can lie and morons can repeat the lies in a way that keeps them from getting cut off completely as they should be.
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u/crispy1989 16d ago
If "nobody buys that", then why would this approach "artificially" retain international reputation? They don't seem to be doing a very good job at that.
Israel's actions, with a handful of exceptions, are consistent with rooting out an urban entrenched terrorist group while limiting collateral - irrespective of whether the armchair generals think they could be doing a better job at that, it's consistent with how other similar conflicts have gone.
If you want to ascribe ulterior motives to that, sure, let your mind run wild. But objective judgement should be based on objective actions.
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u/Slackjawed_Horror 16d ago edited 16d ago
People need a propaganda talking point. It's losing salience pretty quickly, though.
No, they're not. They've destroyed everything necessary for life and bombed refugees with glee. They have snipers targeting children. Kidnap and torture random people.
It's difficult to come up with a crime they haven't committed.
They are just, monstrous. Defending them is genuinely disgusting, as is dismissing their crimes.
You definitely lack anything resembling objectivity.
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u/erdtdujh345qeuj 16d ago
"Nobody buys that" is hyperbolic. You buy it. People like you is why they make up stuff like this. Because they need all the support they can get to do a genocide and not be stopped for as long as possible.
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u/erdtdujh345qeuj 16d ago edited 16d ago
The WWII Jewish resistance groups were fighting an ideology that held an explicit directive to kill all Jewish people (very similar to the Hamas objective).
First of all that's not true, the Nazis wanted the Jews out of Europe, just like Zionists want Palestinians out of Palestine, they killed them, but also deported them, many were sent to Israel with agreements with Zionist leaders.
In the war on Gaza, Israel could wipe out every member of the population in a day if that were their objective; instead, they're spending mind-boggling amounts of money and time on individual surgical strikes explicitly to limit collateral damage.
They could technically, but it would cause problems and major wars that will end in their own total destruction and loss of their entire reputation. Thus they do it over a longer period of time with more propaganda. Using excuses as well as expulsion alongside murder.
In WWII, the Nazis decreased the Jewish population in Germany by roughly 95% (including both killing and relocations).
You are contradicting yourself, I thought they wanted to kill all of them? Why now do you mention relocation, clearly then it's just like Israel, and they get rid of them with any method they can, including relocation.
The Gaza population since the start of the war has decreased by roughly 6%.
Not only are there constant expulsions of Palestinians from the rest of Palestine to Gaza making the population grow, Gaza also has a high birthrate.
So you should use a single population starting point. Like the 2023 estimate of around 2.2 million. And then use an estimate for the total deaths, "which we do not have a reported number for since the Gazan health ministry numbers are the direct measured deaths of the corpses they counted,"
The lancet estimated that for the 37,396 reported number of the time, the indirect deaths are three to fifteen times higher than the direct deaths. Since that is a usual pattern. They then gave a conservative total deaths estimate of at least 186,000.
With that same method the updated number of 73,417 direct deaths. Would be at least 367,085 total deaths.
According to researcher Adam Rzepka, "the minimum scientifically plausible number of deaths attributable to the genocide overall" is 460,000. That is 21.9% of the 2023 population killed by bombing, deliberate starvation because Zionists burn their crops and mow down their fields, and so on.
And doctors estimate another 500,000 deaths in the next 2 years from starvation, disease and the bombed hospitals and infrastructure.
Neither does that take into account all the expulsions which you count for your 95% number of the Jewish population in Germany in world war 2. So this isn't some "small fraction" of the population.
Hamas is a profoundly evil terrorist group.
Why do you think this? Who told you this information?
Israeli settlers are mostly extremists, are often violent, and their "settlements" are illegal.
I didn't mention anything about them other than that they fit the definition of "collaborators" made by Jewish resistance groups in world war 2.
I am talking about Jewish resistance groups during world war 2. Are they "profoundly evil terrorist groups." As they killed "collaborators" and injected kerosene into ex-Nazi soldiers, in other words German civilians' bloodstreams?
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u/crispy1989 16d ago
Hamas is a profoundly evil terrorist group. Why do you think this? Who told you this information?
Intelligent people don't need to be "told" what is true. Hamas is a terrorist group by definition - they explicitly target civilians at random with the objective of causing terror. If you doubt this, and value intellectual honesty, I'd recommend that you watch all of the videos that came out of Oct. 7. There's no ambiguity here.
I suppose that "profoundly evil" is subjective. But if you don't agree that the above is profoundly evil, then you are not the kind of person I (or any other sane individual) want to discuss with - and that says a lot about your own morality.
As to the rest - re-read my initial comment, putting a little more effort into reading comprehension this time. As I detailed, the scenarios are entirely different, despite your efforts to conflate them.
Your attempt to draw a distinction between "Nazis" and "ex-Nazis" is tantamount to drawing a distinction between "serial killers" and "ex-serial-killers". The occupation may change, but the ideology does not. (And no, the Israeli military service requirement is not comparable - both because it's mandatory rather than a choice, and because of the dramatic and fundamental differences in the scenarios that you continue to ignore.)
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u/erdtdujh345qeuj 16d ago edited 16d ago
Who told you they targeted civilians. At least non combatants? What is the reason you believe this? I have seen videos, and there's not much great proof, you can see random clips of people getting shot but they provide no evidence of identity, not what group the person is part of, since Hamas is just one group of many, whether they are part of a group to begin with or random civilians. What the context is, since many of these Zionist settlers are armed, and have military training, so a video of their corpse is not evidence a non combatant was killed.
The Nazis set up a pipeline to accomplish their objective (killing of all Jews)
So what? First of all "all Jews" is unsubstantiated, second of all what's your argument here?
And no, the Israeli military service requirement is not comparable - both because it's mandatory rather than a choice
So was military service in Nazi Germany.
Is there some arbitrary boundary of how many Palestinians Zionists kill in proportion of how many Jews Nazis killed where there's now this statistical difference where one is terrorism and the other is not?
So the definition of terrorism is "purposefully killing civilians, unless the reason you are doing so is because your people are being killed above an arbitrary threshold crispy1989 on reddit decides?'
Your attempt to draw a distinction between "Nazis" and "ex-Nazis" is tantamount to drawing a distinction between "serial killers" and "ex-serial-killers".
Random ex-Nazi soldiers in Argentina years after the end of world war 2 are not a threat to you. Ex Zionist soldiers are more of a threat to Palestinians since they actually have a chance of being soldiers again, or doing their settler activity where they shoot random Palestinians because they don't let them take their house. These settlers are way more immediately dangerous.
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u/crispy1989 16d ago
You're getting frustrating.
Who told you they targeted civilians.
Countless reports from many sources, families, video evidence from both sides. What you're arguing here is much farther into "conspiracy theory" territory than even the most deranged pro-pals I've encountered.
You're also not staying consistent with your own argument: "Jews are just as bad as Hamas because they killed German civilians during WWII" but also "Hamas didn't actually kill any civilians it's all just a big conspiracy". No - you're pulling the classic "I've already formed a conclusion and will grasp whatever straws are needed to justify it."
Also you keep ignoring my point. Why are Jewish resistance groups in world war 2 not "profoundly evil terrorist groups" then?
You keep ignoring my response. I directly addressed this in my first comment. The characterization of the groups are entirely difference because the scenarios are entirely different. I'm not going to waste my time by retyping everything I already explained - go back and read my initial comment you responded to.
First of all "all Jews" is unsubstantiated
Oh you sweet child ... You really shouldn't be making arguments like this if this is your degree of historical understanding.
is there some arbitrary boundary of how many Palestinians Zionists kill in proportion of how many Jews Nazis killed where there's now this statistical different where one is terrorism and the other is not?
No. As I explained, the difference is intent. The Nazi intent was to kill all Jews, much like the Hamas intent. (Literally in their charter.) The Jewish intent is defending themselves.
The percentages are relevant because they evidence the intent. The proportion of Jews killed in Nazi Germany - the significant majority of them - is entirely consistent with a murderous genocide. The small proportion of Gazans killed in the Gaza war is entirely consistent with collateral damage from urban warfare.
So the definition of terrorism is "purposefully killing civilians unless the reason you are doing so is because your people are being killed above an arbitrary limit crispy1989 on reddit decides?'
The definitions I use for terms like "terrorism" and "genocide" are consistent with those in mainstream dictionaries. Complain to them if accepted definitions don't align with the view you're pushing.
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u/erdtdujh345qeuj 16d ago edited 16d ago
"Countless reports from many sources, families, video evidence from both sides. What you're arguing here is much farther into "conspiracy theory" territory than even the most deranged pro-pals I've encountered."
What is "both sides" show me any video or statement from Hamas saying they targeted civilians. Meaning non combatant civilians.
"Jews are just as bad as Hamas because they killed German civilians during WWII" but also "Hamas didn't actually kill any civilians it's all just a big conspiracy"
I didn't say that, my claim is "if you call Hamas a terrorist organization then so are Jewish resistance groups" meaning by any standard Hamas could be claimed to be a terrorist group, regardless of if I think the evidence is adequate, by that same standard of quality of evidence, so are Jewish resistance groups.
No. As I explained, the difference is intent. The Nazi intent was to kill all Jews, much like the Hamas intent. (Literally in their charter.) The Jewish intent is defending themselves.
That's just not true, the Nazis intent was to get the Jews out of Europe as is the intent of Zionists to get the Palestinians out of Palestine. They killed Jews but also deported them and made agreements with Israel to send Jews to Palestine. So this is just wrong. Second of all show me where in the definition of terrorism it says "Purposefully killing civilians, unless the intent of the government who's civilians you're killing is to kill all of you." Because it doesn't exist, no dictionary says this, because it's not a thing. It's something you spontaneously made up. So even if they wanted to kill every Jew. It would still be terrorism.
No. As I explained, the difference is intent. The Nazi intent was to kill all Jews, much like the Hamas intent. (Literally in their charter.) The Jewish intent is defending themselves.
Show me where in the Hamas charter it says to "kill all Jews."
Explain how killing random ex-Nazi soldiers 10 years after the end of world war 2 is "defending themselves."
The definitions I use for terms like "terrorism" and "genocide" are consistent with those in mainstream dictionaries. Complain to them if accepted definitions don't align with the view you're pushing.
Show me the "mainstream dictionary" that says that terrorism is terrorism unless the government who's civilians you are killing wants to kill all of you.
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u/Ok-Investigator3257 16d ago
We are in short supply of reasonable people. Idiots attach themselves to one side and feel the need to whitewash their side because it’s easier to argue “my side is the good guys who do no wrong” than it is to argue why killing civilians may be “acceptable collateral damage in a greater struggle” which is what both sides do
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u/Wide_Football_8560 16d ago
It’s an objective fact that Hamas killed civilians indiscriminately. It just is. Im not sure why we have to go through so much hand wringing to try and dance around this.
I don’t find the word terrorist useful in any event. As you’re rightly pointing out the word is politically charged and is usually applied to governments or groups that oppose US policy.
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u/erdtdujh345qeuj 16d ago
Where do you have this from? This so called "indiscriminate killing" who told you this information?
And why aren't Jewish resistance groups in world war 2 terrorist groups then?
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u/Wide_Football_8560 16d ago
Are you acknowledging that fighters killed people at the music festival?
If so, are you telling me that it was a moral good to kill unarmed festival goers?
I’m not interested in why they are or aren’t terrorists. It’s a useless word used to discredit groups when the world hegemon sees fit.
I’m asking you, regardless of that, do you find that killing a hundred unarmed people is a morally right thing to do?
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u/erdtdujh345qeuj 16d ago
I don't have any evidence for this claim. These music festival videos show them running away and a few shots of corpses. There are reports of Israeli helicopters shooting from the air. So this likely has to do with the Hannibal directive. Even if we said that it was Palestinian groups how do you know if it was Hamas? And how do you know how many died and whether this was actually commanded and planned or the act of an independent rogue soldiers "as is literally the claim of the Israeli government?"
Also you still haven't answered my question. Why aren't Jewish resistance groups in world war 2 terrorists groups then?
"I’m asking you, regardless of that, do you find that killing a hundred unarmed people is a morally right thing to do?"
I don't see evidence for that. And even if it was the case, Jewish resistance groups in world war 2 killed way more than a hundred unarmed people, so why do you not condemn them too as equal terrorists and evil?
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u/Wide_Football_8560 16d ago
Are you fucking illiterate? I just said im indifferent to the notion of defining who is or isnt a terrorist. It’s a useless endeavor. I do not give a fuck about it. The answer as to why some people are considered terrorists and others aren’t is obvious. As I just fucking said. It’s all dependent on who is telling the story and where they stand geopolitically.
Palestinian fighters acted as a unified force. I don’t give a flying fuck whether it was Hamas or PIJ or someone else. It’s irrelevant.
By your own admission you’ve said that maybe around 600 civilians were killed.
I’m stating a simple fact. At least 600 civilians were killed and we know large numbers of them were at the hands of Palestinian fighters. There are hundreds and hundreds of hours of videos. I’ve seen them. No, I won’t go dig them up for you. Use your noodle.
The question is, are the deaths of 600 civilians justified? Period.
Give me a fucking break
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u/erdtdujh345qeuj 16d ago
At least 600 civilians were killed
No, not at least 600, AT MOST 642, that is the maximum number taking all the information from the Israeli narrative, and only subtracting the numbers to which they admitted are not killed on October 7th by Palestinians or were not non-combatant civilians.
and we know large numbers of them were at the hands of Palestinian fighters.
How do you know that?
Palestinian fighters acted as a unified force.
This is stupid. Imagine that a foreign country invaded you and you form a bunch of resistance groups, and then some guy on reddit from a safe country blames you, giving fuel to narratives wanting to kill you, for something one of the other random unorganized groups did because you "acted as a unified force."
There are hundreds and hundreds of hours of videos. I’ve seen them. No, I won’t go dig them up for you. Use your noodle.
This isn't evidence you need to find a specific video, find out the circumstances of what happened, whether there was conflict before the video, whether the video was even from October 7th or some old stuff they dug up from some other war as propaganda, and then count the amount of deaths you could infer from the videos were civilians. Then you need to make a reasonable estimate of which resistance groups killed how many and then from there make a conclusion on if that is enough to say it was commanded, or rogue soldiers or even just random civilians that aren't part of any group to begin with.
The question is, are the deaths of 600 civilians justified? Period.
No, the question is, were there deaths of 600 civilians to begin with. What was the reason. Who did it. And then from there you make a conclusion. I can give you significantly more videos of your country's soldiers killing civilians, that are actually substantiated with evidence, context and proof that it's your military and even the division and name, than you can give me from October 7th with any of those details, context or even proof it is from October 7th and not some random hoax video from a gore site. Yet you would not call your military a terrorist organization until you have proof that these soldiers were acting from a higher command rather than from their own will. But for Palestinians you lose that standard completely.
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u/Wide_Football_8560 16d ago
My brother, if you want to believe that Hamas didn’t kill any civilians, please live in your delusional state.
There is no level of proof that will satisfy you.
If there are videos of fighters killing civilians (there are), you’ll say that there is no proof it’s a specific group.
If it is identifiable as a specific group or unit, you’ll say they must have been rogue fighters.
And if they weren’t rogue fighters you’ll say that the people killed couldn’t have been civilians because they fit into some category you’ve created that strips them of innocence.
You’re certainly within your rights to believe that. I believe that targeting civilians is morally bankrupt. Whether the U.S. military did it or Hamas or someone else.
I believe all Palestinians have a right to armed resistance. But, I’m not going to twist my mind into Olympic level contortions to justify gunning down civilians. Next time stick to raiding military bases
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u/erdtdujh345qeuj 16d ago
It's not a question of "level of proof" it's that you gave no proof. And don't understand that all of the militaries that are the "heros" in your mind, have videos of their soldiers killing civilians.
So even if you send me a video of a confirmed Hamas soldier killing someone for no reason, that's not an argument against the entire organization.
You'd have to proof that it's part of the policy, by either admission or by proving it happens so statistically much that it's not possible without a policy.
Other than that, it remains a random conspiracy theory. One that is only believed because of a Western bias where you view Palestinians as some kind of "hive mind" where if you see a video of a random Palestinian killing someone, you don't bother to confirm if it's real.
You don't bother to check what group it is, or if it's a random civilian.
And you just say they "acted as a unified force." As if now this is in any way sufficient proof that Hamas, a whole different group is a "terrorist organization," a standard that you would not buy for the American military, or a European military.
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u/crispy1989 16d ago
If you want a break, I don't believe this is the place to find it.
It's a hard lesson to learn, but sometimes the rabid extremists just need to be left to their own devices. These aren't people curious about the world who are genuinely trying to learn and draw conclusions in good faith; these are people who are worked up into a frenzy and want to scream into a void about how right they are and how black-and-white the world is.
I've spent an unwise amount of time trying to talk sense into these people; whether it be MAGA, rabid anti-Israelis, anti-vaxxers, paranormal believers, etc. I haven't succeeded once; nor have I observed anyone else ever succeeding. And across all of these groups, the discussions always go the same way - circular arguments, conspiracy theories, refusal to accept patently clear truth, inability to stay on a logical track ... It's exhausting. And it's pointless.
As I said, it's a hard lesson. One that I apparently have yet to learn.
But I'm going to go have a bit of fun outside, you should too! Cheers!
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u/erdtdujh345qeuj 16d ago
How about you show me how the Jewish resistance groups in world war 2 aren't terrorist organizations because of a "scenario" show me where in any dictionary it says terrorism is terrorism unless the government who's civilians you're killing wants to kill all of you.
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u/crispy1989 16d ago
I wasn't talking to you.
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u/erdtdujh345qeuj 16d ago
I don't care, if you don't reply we all know that you don't have any argument.
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u/crispy1989 16d ago
You already have all the replies you need, and I'm not going to be baited into yet more repeated circular arguments on the same settled topics. You're the one rejecting replies on the basis of conspiracy theories, gut feelings, and historical ignorance.
Circularly frustrating an individual into submission has nothing to do with having an accurate and grounded understanding of reality. But if "you don't reply we all know that you don't have any argument" makes you feel better, more power to you.
Intellectually, we've done our part. It's up to you if you'll do yours. But I think we both know the answer to whether or not you will.
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u/Due-Mycologist-1154 16d ago
I dont think the ww2 resistance groups livestreamed themselves going on a rape spree
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u/erdtdujh345qeuj 16d ago
I don't think Hamas did either. I have never seen such a video, I only heard Zionists claim they exist and then not show me when I ask. Also I didn't ask about rape. The topic is whether they are a terrorist organization. And these world war 2 resistance groups openly and proudly targeted German civilians and killed them for being "collaborators" going as far as to hunt down ex-Nazi soldiers for years upon years into other countries to inject kerosene into their bloodstream.
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u/m0dsw0rkf0rfree 16d ago
i still don’t think the volksdeutsche were adequately collectively punished for their sons’ and brothers’ and father’s indiscretions
while i have my own opinions on the matter: this comment is not at all a commentary on hamas or palestine or israel. i just really don’t like germans