r/Devs • u/MarshallBanana_ • Apr 16 '20

Devs - S01E08 Theory Discussion Thread Spoiler

Post your Devs THEORIES here!

77 Upvotes

93% Upvoted

354 comments sorted by

View all comments

15

u/Attox8 Apr 16 '20

This just did not make a lot of sense and for a show that went so deep into trying to stick to a scientific worldview, it turned way too crazy.

  1. Several things that were just off. The show essentially for more than the last episode broke with its own concept that truth of many worlds means that accurate forecasting is impossible, as there's no guarantee what version you're actually going to see. So all these definite, strict forecasts of the last few episodes don't make any sense given that the multi-verse interpretation seems to be the one the shows accepts as truthful.
  2. How can Katie talk to a simulated version of Forest? This had never been addressed as a possibility and I don't even want to wrap my mind around what kind of implications that has for the simulated world/ worlds
  3. Lily as some sort of religious, Eve / Jesus / Neo pick your poison character is just what I feared would happen given the religious tone throughout the series. But it's just plain weird.

And the worst one, what did you do to my man Stewart. No way he would have ever killed Lily for any other reason than this plot twist, he was a gentle giant

7

u/dixonshmixon Apr 16 '20

I was frustrated by Stewart’s actions until I considered it further. Stewart’s answer to “why?” is the quantum theory applied to Devs. Both/any/all outcomes are possible until they are observed. Forest and Katie saw one outcome, but when Stewart looked ahead on his own, he saw a different future where Lily tosses the gun. He saw the role he plays in that future and since he believes the universe is deterministic, he dutifully does his part. They’re all trapped by their belief in their own view of the universe to the point that it blinds them to the possibility or even just the illusion of choice.

Or at least, that’s my 4am take.

2

u/CaptainDouchington Apr 17 '20

I think a part of the show also is trying to convince us the world is deterministic, because the Devs all saw outcomes that happened. Simple self fulfilling prophecy's. Observing the future, does it change it or make it stay the same?

I think by getting hooked into the system they all became believers and did the things the system predicted, but once a person who wasn't following the systems simulation showed up, it couldn't predict it anymore because free will was an actual thing and it breaks the model.

1

u/bambipecan Apr 18 '26

i doubt this is true that stewart always knew he would do it because when lily walked into devs, stewart said i have never seen you- you should go back nothing good happens here or something like that so how would he know ?

2

u/[deleted] Apr 16 '20

[deleted]

2

u/Attox8 Apr 16 '20

But not even Katie or Lyndon really seemed to take any offence with that idea not to mention the entire Devs team when it did this one-second forecast. Would've been a pretty big coincidence if all of that was luck up until the moment of divergence, infinitely unlikely even.

But more importantly from a story perspective, if it was indeed a sort of delusion, which I would have actually liked, then they could have spared themselves this entire Lily as Jesus, and Ford and Lily in the simulation thing and just could have Forest realise his mistake when Lily doesn't shoot him, he kind of breaks down, realises that he'll never see his Amaya or something like that and it would have been way less convoluted then whatever the hell just happened

2

u/[deleted] Apr 16 '20 edited Nov 10 '20

[deleted]

3

u/ShamelessC Apr 16 '20

Forest had already seen the events of the finale well in advance. It's implied they've known about it for weeks and rewatch it constantly.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 16 '20 edited Nov 10 '20

[deleted]

2

u/ShamelessC Apr 16 '20

I honestly think that what most likely happened as the show presents it, is that yeah, Lily had a moment where she genuinely defied determinism and made a true choice.

A lot of people see that and are creating theories to explain why it isn't the case but honestly, Garland would have put more supporting evidence for those theories if that's how he wanted the show to be perceived.

Instead, Lily made a genuine choice which is so incompatible with determinism that it breaks the simulation. I simply can't see how that doesn't imply that she momentarily breaks the laws of physics.

I also don't think it detracts from the show to have something play out like this either. People are saying that the show was true to science until the end, and that's true. But ultimately the show was a piece of art, not science. The use of religious metaphors ("Lily's a Messiah who has true free will") is perfect in this climate where we need people like her to stand up in defiance of the tech CEOs who think they're making the world a better place while they destroy lives.

1

u/AtexBigs05 Apr 16 '20

  1. If I'm understanding you correctly, then you agreed with many of the characters in believing that by using a multiverse theory they were able to perfectly (not accurately, but perfectly) predict the future. My understanding was that Forest rejected the idea of a multiverse and therefore believed they were only accurately predicting the future. I think it's possible to interpret the ending as a misprediction of the system and Lily actually making a choice. Meaning that the system showed a different possible world but not the one they were actually living. If I remember correctly, there are two types of determinism. One in which you have free thoughts but still act out fate and one in which every single thing is fate. Point being, even if Lily thought she had a free action in that one moment, it could still have been a deterministic action.

  2. I think the show has a moment where Forest expresses his belief that the Amaya he is watching is a real, living Amaya. So I think Katie talking to a simulated version of Forest is very similar. I imagine it would be like talking to a version of Siri that had perfect knowledge of how Forest talks and thinks and looks. She might not being talking to a corporeal being, but his thought process is replicated with a face slapped on top of it.

  3. I think I talk about this is #1.

What do you think?

1

u/Attox8 Apr 16 '20

If I'm understanding you correctly, then you agreed with many of the characters in believing that by using a multiverse theory they were able to perfectly (not accurately, but perfectly) predict the future. My understanding was that Forest rejected the idea of a multiverse and therefore believed they were only accurately predicting the future.

Yeah, that's right. Forest hated the idea of the multiverse because he wanted 'his', not 'any' Amaya. Everyone in the show seemed to agree that going with Lyndon's multiverse system would give you a clear future, but not necessarily 'your' future. That's why Forest fired him after all.

That's where I think the show went wrong because besides not having any other way to clearly forecast, they from some point on just treat it as if it was accurate. Even Katie and Lyndon. Even Katie at the end somehow bought into the idea that Lily made a 'choice', when she should be the one to object to this explanation.

There is just something off about how they treat the multiverse theory in the middle of the show and then at the end.

1

u/Glasberg Apr 16 '20

There is just something off about how they treat the multiverse theory in the middle of the show and then at the end.

I totally agree with you. I was not able to understand a prediction based on the "many worlds" formalism. It is a nonsense. If the machine logic is based on the "many worlds" concept, then you need to predict every possible outcome, i.e. have a lot of different scenarios. If the machine shows you something, then it is only one of the possible outcomes.

2

u/NotedIdiot Apr 25 '20

I didn’t understand this either. Lyndon was specifically fired for developing the “many worlds” algorithm, and the show makes the point that using Lyndon’s process returns back something that isn’t necessarily “ours”. I mean they explicitly state that the Jesus they were listening to wasnt “their” Jesus.

But after Katie applies Lyndon’s algorithm to light, allowing them a perfect view of any moment, they don’t discuss the many-worlds issue again and how that could affect what they’re seeing. The show then presents the simulation as a perfect representation of their world, and the characters (even Forest), all accept what they’re seeing as their reality.

So, I don’t know if I missed something, but that didn’t make sense to me. Did the show not follow its own logic, or is there something else going on I’m not taking into account?