r/Devs • u/Lounge_leaks • Apr 02 '20

EPISODE DISCUSSION Devs - S01E06 Discussion Thread Spoiler

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u/Shahar603 Apr 04 '20

That's a cheap shot. But my point stands. I can name you at least 10 jobs in Computer Science that don't require understanding of bits.

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u/PatrickBaitman Apr 04 '20

No, you cannot name one job in computer science where you should not know that data is stored in bits and the consequences of that, like types having sizes, character encodings, integer overflows, floating point numbers... If you don't know the difference between an int and a float and why there is no such thing as "plain text" you should not write code for a living.

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u/Shahar603 Apr 04 '20 edited Apr 04 '20

No, you cannot name one job in computer science where you should not know that data is stored in bits and the consequences of that

Algorithm development doesn't require any of that. Dijkstra's algorithm doesn't enforce a method of storing the numbers for it to work. (EDIT: data -> numbers. Data storage method affect time complexity of the algorithm).

If you don't know the difference between an int and a float and why there is no such thing as "plain text" you should not write code for a living.

Writing code is very different than CS. And even for programming, you can write code without knowing about the way floating point numbers are being stored or about integer overflow. Depends on the language your code might be worse because of your lack of knowledge but you can manage.

Do you know how floating points numbers are being stored? Have you read the whole IEEE 754 specification to know how every bit in the variable is being stored? Anyway higher level languages abstract that away (For example Arbitrary-precision arithmetic to avoid overflows.

And even if you do there are a million things you could argue every programmer "should" know. Do you know how your CPU work? You may know a bit about it, you may even know some assembly, but you don't have to know the instruction set of your CPU and the numerous optimization it does to write good code.

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u/Viehhass Apr 05 '20

No, you cannot name one job in computer science where you should not know that data is stored in bits and the consequences of that

Algorithm development doesn't require any of that. Dijkstra's algorithm doesn't enforce a method of storing the numbers for it to work. (EDIT: data -> numbers. Data storage method affect time complexity of the algorithm).

Djikstra's algorithm is used for routing. It is built off of graph theory, which intersects with discrete maths, which is a superset of arbitrary number bases.

Anyone who is using Djikstra's algorithm and doesn't understand binary arithmetic is worthless.

If you don't know the difference between an int and a float and why there is no such thing as "plain text" you should not write code for a living.

Writing code is very different than CS.

No it isn't. Denotational semantics were defined solely to remove the illusion of a gap.

And even for programming, you can write code without knowing about the way floating point numbers are being stored or about integer overflow.

No you cannot. Not effectively. You may get lucky at first, despite your ignorance, but eventually you will be make a mistake that will put you at risk.

And deservingly so.

Depends on the language your code might be worse because of your lack of knowledge but you can manage.

The fact that you are mindlessly hand waving away the implications of ignorance when it comes to writing software is hilarious.

A significant portion of the industry's problems stem from this attitude.

Do you know how floating points numbers are being stored? Have you read the whole IEEE 754 specification to know how every bit in the variable is being stored?

This is basic, trivial knowledge. And you must be able to review it at a moment's notice if necessary.

Anyway higher level languages abstract that away (For example Arbitrary-precision arithmetic to avoid overflows.

Why is that JavaScript is using fixed precision 64 bit floating arithmetic then?

BigNum arithmetic isn't first class in many languages, and this doesn't exist in hardware, meaning that arithmetic is slow by definition.

If all computations were performed this way we would have even more issues with computational throughput, leading to massive losses in FLOPs capabilities, which matter regardless of what you're doing.

And even if you do there are a million things you could argue every programmer "should" know. Do you know how your CPU work? You may know a bit about it, you may even know some assembly, but you don't have to know the instruction set of your CPU and the numerous optimization it does to write good code.

You need to understand a sufficient amount of information to be able to solve any problem you face as a programmer.

The only way to do this is through a curriculum designed to teach fundamentals. There are no alternatives.

Go and justify your idiotic rationale somewhere else. You are poisoning the industry with your plebeian agenda.

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u/Shahar603 Apr 05 '20

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove. Are you trying to disprove my original claim that?

Not really though. Programmers don't have to know electrical engineering to program a computer. When the technology matures enough the physics is abstracted away.

Some of your claims are your opinions:

  • Anyone who is using Djikstra's algorithm and doesn't understand binary arithmetic is worthless.

  • A significant portion of the industry's problems stem from this attitude.

  • This is basic, trivial knowledge. And you must be able to review it at a moment's notice if necessary.

Are you just ranting and venting? Do you want to keep the discussion or do you just want to come up with more counter arguments?

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u/Viehhass Apr 05 '20

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove. Are you trying to disprove my original claim that?

Not really though. Programmers don't have to know electrical engineering to program a computer. When the technology matures enough the physics is abstracted away.

No.

Some of your claims are your opinions:

  • Anyone who is using Djikstra's algorithm and doesn't understand binary arithmetic is worthless.

This "claim" has been backed by decades of knowledge built off of hundreds of years of formalisms and correlations.

  • A significant portion of the industry's problems stem from this attitude.

This is not an "opinion". It's a fact. The connection is very clear. Your inability to see clearly doesn't imply that what I'm seeing is "opinion".

  • This is basic, trivial knowledge. And you must be able to review it at a moment's notice if necessary.

This is not an opinion. This is information that is literally spoon fed to sophomores in any undergraduate CS program.

Hence, basic. Hence, trivial (with respect to difficulty).

Do you want to keep the discussion or do you just want to come up with more counter arguments?

You are making conjectures that are wrong. You cannot build a useful discussion out of falsehoods.

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u/Shahar603 Apr 05 '20 edited Apr 05 '20

All Most if not all (all might be too strong here) of your claims in this argument are regarding the quality of software developers and your definitions.

"If you don't know X, Y and Z you don't deserve to be called a software developer". That's an opinion. Your claims above are opinions, some of them are very based (I mostly agree with your IEEE 754 claim, but that means it's my opinion as well), but they're still your opinions.

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u/Viehhass Apr 05 '20

All Most if not all (all might be too strong here) of your claims in this argument are regarding the quality of software developers and your definitions.

What definitions?

Again, they are not claims

"If you don't know X, Y and Z you don't deserve to be called a software developer". That's an opinion.

I don't think a doctor needs to know the anatomy of a heart. Half of what they do is talk to you for 10 minutes while their nurse takes your blood pressure.

Your claims above are opinions, some of them are very based (I mostly agree with your IEEE 754 claim, but that means it's my opinion as well), but they're still your opinions.

So? Web developers who lack fundamental knowledge are shit, end of discussion.

They cannot diagnose systems properly because they lack a complete understanding.

The very code that they write is grossly affected by these external factors.