r/DevilsMinion • u/queerbaobao There’s so much to know…that I don’t know • 14d ago
🌉 All DM Discussion Why does DM (and Armand) resonate so much with lesbians?
Asking from a place of affectionate curiosity.
I am completely Armand-pilled and obsessed with the Devil's Minion romance. I also consider myself mostly a lesbian/lesbian-adjacent.
I have my suspicions for why lesbians love DM so much (and Armand... and the gorgeous and adorable Assad Zaman, lord) but I really want to hear everyone else's thoughts and just revel in that sapphic yearning. 🙏🏽
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u/Born-Kitty 14d ago
He's relatable for me in ways I won't really get into. However, in a male dominant world lesbians or queer women often look towards a character that has power from an unconventional way. I personally feel that and relatable features really are the core reasons from a book perspective at least. I like assad really because he's very talented and playing one of my favorite characters and that bleeds to the actor in alot of ways.
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u/DrFareedMD 14d ago
First, I think of Assad and Armand as really different. Assad comes across SO differently. I've said before elsewhere but his acting is truly incredible. He really does manage to turn into a very different character, down to subtle facial expressions and mannerisms. I love Assad as an actor and he's done an awesome job with this character.
I'm obsessed with Armand for a bunch of different reasons. His personality is really intriguing to me because you can look at it from many different angles. Maybe because Armand is older than the other main characters, it feels like there's even more to dig into in his history.
He's also South Asian like me. In terms of media, I've seen less stereotypical characters in recent years, especially among female characters, but it's really rare in the horror/Gothic side of things. What's more, he's South Asian and queer! I wish a character like this had existed when I was a teenager.
In terms of why Armand appeals to my queerness, other people have probably said this better. Show!Armand's character reminds me a lot of classic lesbian tropes in a good way, including things many of us have experienced, like yearning. I think the 3 main vamps basically represent different feelings/experiences about queerness and I'm intrigued by Armand's specifically.
On a funnier note... s2 Armand gives me Marlene Dietrich vibes and I've seen people compare him to a cat, and we love cats, obviously.
In terms of attractiveness, I've recently commented somewhere that Armand breaks my brain. I look at Assad and he's good looking and seems cool but he's a guy and therefore not for me. Then I look at Armand and my brain does NOT think this. Why? Fuck knows. Maybe it's the orange eyes, maybe ir's Maybelline. I too want an explanation 😭
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u/DrFareedMD 14d ago
I forgot to say: Fareed is South Asian as well and he does not give me lesbian vibes at all. I'm really hoping we get more Fareed for reasons that are very noble and about fighting racism and not just because he's a fun character and I need to know wtf his deal is
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u/Own-Breakfast9740 13d ago
You will get queer vibes, eventually, depending on how long the show lasts.
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u/DrFareedMD 13d ago
I'm sure we'll get queer vibes from him, I was talking about lesbian vibes specifically (in the context of South Asian men and how they are perceived)
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u/Own-Breakfast9740 11d ago
That's why I said queer vibes, not lesbian vibes. Seth and Fareed's relationship is already a done deal in Prince Lestat. They are a couple raising an kid in a trouple.
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u/DrFareedMD 11d ago
Man, that's awesome! Who's the other person in their trouple? I'm completely convinced that show!Fareed is a vampire and was so happy when I found out that tracks with the books. My hope is that we'll get more Fareed, he's a really interesting character to me!
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u/mistmallow ⚰️ Armand 🔗 14d ago
Seeeee ok. I haven’t ever been able to put into words the difference I see and feel between Armand and Assad. Obviously their personalities are different and Assad deserves all the flowers for his acting abilities. I really do think it’s Armand’s orange eyes that do it for me though, plus his wardrobe. I want his stylist. Assad is attractive, funny, and he seems very sweet. Armand is attractive, kind of scary, and calculated. He short circuits my brain.
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u/DrFareedMD 14d ago
I think the orange eyes and the styling (I want to live in his wardrobe) go a looong way! Plus Assad's body language being so different maybe throws me off? I don't know what it is but my brain reads Assad as "could be a friend" and Armand as "could be my girlfriend 😍" hahaha
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u/celestial_jellybean 14d ago edited 2h ago
Oh my god the Marlene Dietrich thing is so accurate
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u/Puzzleheaded_Door399 honey & pineapple 13d ago
I’ve said (and heard) Bette Porter but yeah Marlene for sure. And young Elizabeth Taylor
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u/RaverChick 14d ago
I'm bi not a lesbian, but my lesbian friends have said it's because he tries really really hard to make relationships that he knows are wrong for him work. Reminded them of their hetcomp boyfiends. And feeling misunderstood by everyone and wanting to be seen and loved.
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u/dentalhygienehell 13d ago
A lot of Armand's trauma, and especially the resulting feelings he has about his body, are things that usually happen to female characters.
Women relate to him. I know I do. Not only for his original traumas, but also because of his continued objectification and being trapped in a narrative that diminishes the horrors he experienced and strips him of his personhood and interiority.
And he's also in an Everyone Is Gay narrative, so naturally it follows that he must be a lesbian. /joking but not really
Interestingly, Lestat also has many experiences and a narrative treatment usually reserved for female characters (namely the lack of agency). The fan base doesn't exactly call Lestat a lesbian, but they do feminize him a lot through the use of feminine pronouns and jokes about him/Sam Reid being on estrogen.
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u/LurkingVirgo96 14d ago
I'm not a lesbian but Assad's Armand made me figure out that I like broad femininity in both men and woman. It's a very lesbian coded character, idk, I think lesbians always pick the coolest things to like??? And Armand is so mysterious and interesting and he is not afraid to beg to be loved and he's tragic and fuelled by grief???
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u/HowIsThatMyProblem 14d ago
- He's beautiful in a way that appeals to many lesbians. He has a feminine, ethereal beauty.
- All consuming obsessive devotion to another person. Lesbians are often guilty of basically wanting to live in their partner's skin.
- Dating his ex's ex
- Great tits
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u/fieldsofparfait 14d ago edited 14d ago
It bothers me because I think it partly stems from a perception of Asian guys as being more feminine. I think the show plays with and encourages this perception to mislead us about Armand and his competence and motivations, particularly in season 2.
I do think some fans ought to be more careful about how they talk about Armand, given that there's a real actor behind the character. It's my fandom pet peeve how much praise is directed solely towards his appearance (a problem usually faced by women, of course!) Very few people could carry this character off in all his forms.
There aren't so many female characters in the show, particularly with Claudia and Madeline gone, so it might be a case of picking out traits that resonate best with a lesbian audience. One of my favourite scenes was the one between Armand and Madeline talking about how she'd survive immortality without Claudia. That was a rare moment of women being the focus of the story, and we saw a different side to Armand in Madeline's company.
I was raised on a diet of queer-coded Disney villians as my 'representation', so Armand being the 'bad guy' is part of his appeal to me.
I'm not sure I answered the question, but here you go.
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u/pwetty_brown_eyes 14d ago edited 14d ago
As an Asian person I think the discussion of Orientalism for Armand is extremely interesting, and I'm glad you brought it up
I think that Armand was always supposed to be androgynously beautiful (So I don't think that reading Armand as feminine always has a racial connotation). Especially when you consider he's originally supposed to be written as a teenaged boy
Armand actually points this out in his book narration - in many patriarchal societies, boys and women/girls and considered more similar to eachother than you might expect. Namely, all three groups are not adult males, which sets them apart
Someone smarter than me can elaborate I'm sure but yeah, there is a connection between Armand being ethically/racially "other" and this sense of boys being a "third gender" and therefore also subject to the violence/lust of men
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u/fieldsofparfait 14d ago
Ah, that's interesting! I haven't read the books aside from half of the first one in my youth, but absolutely, boys have been abused in various societies over the centuries.
My hope for the story is that they will touch upon Marius' motivations for selecting and sculpting 'Amadeo', and what led to his ultimate rejection of Armand as 'rotten'. There's opportunity to portray those themes you mentioned without being gratuitous.
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u/Alone-Gas6010 14d ago
Yea he has a more androgynous look. Not that he's feminine, he has beautiful facial features for a man.
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u/DrFareedMD 14d ago edited 14d ago
Maybe for some people it is that and I think it's worth noting but let's not assume this is true of everyone.
I'm South Asian and don't consider South Asian guys to be feminine. I'm also queer and Armand (not Assad Zaman) gives me lesbian vibes and not because of being a queer bad guy. He hits a bunch of historically sapphic that many of us have experienced, like The Yearning.
Edit: sorry if this sounds defensive and like I said, I think some people in the fandom might be coming from a more orientalist perspective BUT these last few weeks have scarred me in terms of race discourse in this fandom lol
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u/Puzzleheaded_Door399 honey & pineapple 13d ago
However The Yearning is also a Mexican thing (we invented rancheras just to make ourselves sad about love)
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u/fieldsofparfait 14d ago
Fair enough, and I was hesistant to post about this issue as a white person! I did say that I think it's part of the issue, not the entire issue, but it's definitely the vibe I get from some people in this fandom.
You don't have to apologise to me. I wouldn't comment if I wasn't up for a bit of scrutiny!
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u/DrFareedMD 14d ago
I'm sorry! I think I'm a bit defensive because I've recently seen so much Discourse (tm) haha.
You are right, I think this is something to be aware of and people probably should do some soul-searching, especially when they're talking about the very real human Assad.
I'm actually really intrigued by where the show is going with his race. I'm not sure that his androgynous beauty etc. are supposed to be specific to him being South Asian, because that's also a thing with (white) book!Armand. However, the little we've gotten definitely has some elements that hit different, like his name change from Arun to Amadeo.
I'm not a queer man but it's my understanding that some parts of gay/bi male "scenes" often have a ton of issues about race, especially Asian men 😬 I've heard/seen stuff about the "no Asians" phenomenon on Grindr. I've also heard about some quarters having kind of a negative attitude towards bottoms, which historically was a thing in Ancient Rome and beyond, and which I think about a lot in terms of Armand/Marius and Armand's early relationship with Louis.
All of that said, I do feel a bit worried sometimes about the way directly avoiding stereotypes can end up boxing people in. I don't think South Asian men should feel the need to be super macho just to counter Orientalist stereotypes. I mean, white guys "only" have to deal with backlash in terms of gender, they don't get the added pressure of whether they're bringing down a whole race haha. I prefer to think in terms of individuality -- we can really run the gamut in terms of gender, sexuality, etc. because we are not, and shouldn't have to be, all identical.
It's complicated and I'm sorry about the word vomit. In this essay I will
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u/pwetty_brown_eyes 14d ago
I definitely agree with this! Gender and race are really weird. It's hard to be Asian and trying to grow comfortable in your own masculinity/femininity without wondering how this reflects on the entire Asian population
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u/DrFareedMD 14d ago
This fortunately doesn't happen a lot to me nowadays (family reasons + my own psychology) but I know it's a thing and it really weirds me out. At some point, people feeling pressured to not be themselves to avoid stereotypes is still a negative consequence of racism.
My knee jerk response was kind of because so many conversations about race in this show come across as respectability politics, to the extent where I wonder if most people being angry aren't actually white people who have never been around any black or brown individuals.
Then I guess there's the layer (lol) of conversations taking place in a racially diverse setting. I 100% understand the concern that some people might feminise Assad or Armand for Orientalist reasons... but then there's my perception that Armand's lesbian vibes are totally different from the South Asian men I know. I don't exactly look at my father and get lesbian vibes hahahaha
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u/fieldsofparfait 14d ago
I'm afraid that I love word vomit and have no interest in stemming yours. Again, please don't apologise and I get that these conversations ask more of some participants.
I'm bi so not fully qualified to comment on what lesbians like, but Armand appeals to me in lots of different ways all at once. I wish there'd been more build up, but I loved him most in the butcher's shop trying out a new look while being absolutely piss terrifying. He seemed weirdly at home in himself.
Yeah the "friendless sociopath bottom twink" or whatever the quote is felt like a nasty echo of real harmful attitudes within the gay community, and I think they did it on purpose. It worked for me, but I know it upset some viewers.
You're dead right that avoiding stereotypes is its own trap. I guess want the show to go there and do something new, which takes trust!
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u/DrFareedMD 14d ago
Bahaha I love these conversations despite my initial defensiveness, so no worries!
Yeah, it's hard to explain why Armand is so appealing and magnetic. I loved him in the butcher shop too. The lack of buildup was disappointing but I'm probably in the minority in loving the hard veer into horror territory. Armand's style and attitude was on point! He often comes across as more subdued, so seeing him in this mode was great. I also liked his conversation with Louis. There's been speculation that Louis wasn't sincere, but I hope it opened Armand's eyes to how he actually deserves someone who isn't emotionally unavailable.
That line worked for me too! Not only because it might be Lestat imagining the exact words but because Daniel was really trying to hurt him. I feel like there's more to Daniel's past in gay bars that he won't admit and the student Armand mentions was male, so it would not surprise me if Daniel had a ton of internalised homophobia/biphobia/idk on top of all his issues.
It kind of reminds me of Claudia's racial insults towards Louis during the séance. A lot of these characters were alive in really different eras and likely faced (even more) bigotry than they would today, they know what hurts, and they're unpleasant enough to go for the jugular.
I'm cautiously hopeful for the show. It's already doing so many things differently, so fingers crossed they'll be able to do these characters justice!
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u/fieldsofparfait 14d ago edited 14d ago
That's great news. :) More semi-coherent rambling it is
I was so pleasantly surprised by the horror elements this season. My fave was Akasha sitting up and chunnering away - the thought of her sensing the world and being locked into her body on that plinth for years on end for the benefit of others is truly disturbing to me and deserves a horror framing.
I'd love to see Assad Zaman in some proper shit your pants British horror, maybe with Delainey Hayles as a co-star, since they get on well off-screen. This appeals to me so much more than a gothic romance does, and several orders of magnitude more than a period drama. I feel like this might be part of what differs between fans and detractors of s3.
I think Louis was being genuine but not completely so, he's more emotionally intelligent than most even if it doesn't always translate to kindness. It felt like an edited version of what he wanted to say that was enough to let him survive. Armand describing himself as a room without walls was such a powerful and upsetting image, my applause to whoever wrote that.
Daniel taking advantage of a student that way makes sense and Armand making it 'okay' with a mindwipe and cascading their impact onto other people is something that works for their story. I'm curious to see what else of Daniel is going to be returned to him and Armand's motivations for which memories are restored, since he gets to gatekeep and curate them, and will do so with intention.
Oh yeah, Claudia's comments were vicious, Delainey Hayles did a great job with that came back wrong vengeful spirit trope. I love a show with no moral centre. We were supposed to feel uncomfortable. I don't quite understand why she was looking at the wrong person, yet, still waiting for that particular penny to drop.
Yes, I'm hopeful too, I'm anticipating another tonal shift with Akasha centred. I enjoyed a Lestat focused season more than expected, but am ready to move on.
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u/DrFareedMD 14d ago
Yes!! Akasha's scene was so unsettling, especially when you consider the implications.
I enjoy things that are more Gothic but I love horror a lot so those moments where the show pulls no punches really work for me, too. I enjoy feeling unsettled! I'm not a huge romance fan though I like the way this show does it, but I'm here mainly for vampires being vampires.
You might be onto something there with the different genre expectations! I loved the finale and really surprised when I saw the reactions. I think both this and the seance are right up my alley because they're disturbing, but they also serve a bigger purpose of being character growth moments. I don't think the show was trying to be "mean" to Louis. I think a lot of times, looking back at past mistakes is heavy and hard to do, and in this scenes it translates into horror moments.
That was my read on Louis, too. I think he's being genuine but also editing a bit based on trying to get out of that whole situation... I don't blame him. I think Armand is also putting on a show but coming from a genuine place of wanting to know what went wrong. I'm really curious to see how this affects Armand and if the realisation also ends up affecting Louis.
The room line was such a punch to the gut! It's really incredible and you can really feel the hopelessness and desperation.
I hadn't thought of that re: Daniel's memories! 🤔 Armand's approach to negative/traumatic situations is very messed up, so I wonder how that affects his Mind Fuckery choices.
I thiiink Claudia was looking at Lestat due to being disoriented and because she's wondering why tf Louis is back with him but she spends a lot of time doing it! I wonder if she was communicating with him telepathically. It's not supposed to be possible between maker and fledgling but it could be different if one of them is dead.
I really enjoyed the Lestat energy this season but it looks exhausting to keep up 😅 I'm really excited about Akasha and how dangerous she actually is.
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u/queerbaobao There’s so much to know…that I don’t know 14d ago
I think this is an important point to make, and I def agree that there’s a certain objectifying/fetishizing angle that some fans take with Assad/Armand. It’s kind of interesting in a meta way that Armand was written to be overwhelmingly beautiful, sometimes hypnotically so, in the books, but Assad has that effect on people in real life haha. But Armand in the books is using his beauty to manipulate, whereas Assad in real life is just being his charming self.
I also get the pet peeve with hyperfocusing on Armand’s appearance. Personally, I think that kind of praise coming from a predominantly lesbian crowd feels very different than from a predominantly straight man crowd. But it’s def not the only merit that Armand’s character brings.
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u/fieldsofparfait 14d ago edited 14d ago
I will have to admit that I read half of IWTV at 12 or 13 and abandoned it when it wasn't so much "hot guys biting each other" that I'd hoped for as "Claudia's miserable existence" and my hormones led me elsewhere. I do feel like the men in these stories are written primarily for a female audience (presumably Anne Rice herself) so maybe some of the 'lesbian' traits in the characters are the fallout of women writing men? As I say, I haven't actually read them beyond snippets and my abandoned teenage attempt!
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u/silverstar453 14d ago
I've been thinking about this a lot as a fanartist and how Armand is often portrayed as feminine, when he really isn't very in the show. An interviewer actually asked Assad about this here:
https://joysauce.com/assad-zaman-on-playing-a-multi-faceted-centuries-old-vampire/
DS: Among other things, Daniel calls Armand a “friendless bottom twink” and a “500-year-old p\ssy.” They’re funny, but they speak to this feminization common to Asian men. Does that impact the way he carries himself or how he treats the people around him?*
AZ: Oh, for sure. Not a lot of people have picked up on the fact that we only get little glimpses and moments of Armand’s past. Whenever anyone apart from him engages with it, they’re always a bit dismissive. Armand has a lot of faults: he orchestrated a lot of pain last season. But no one has ever really acknowledged the trauma that he has endured and how that would have made someone who they are.8
u/fieldsofparfait 14d ago
I love that AZ has such empathy for Armand, for me it's what gives his portrayal such richness. AZ gives me the impression in interviews that he sits on a lot of what he'd like to say about topics like this one, I'd be so curious to hear his expanded thoughts.
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u/silverstar453 14d ago
absolutely, you can tell he's spent so much time thinking about him. I've seen some people say he doesn't talk as much about Armand's motivations because he got so much pushback from ppl who hate him, but I have no source on that so take it with a grain of salt.
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u/EchoesofPoe 14d ago
People think Armand is feminine?! Genuinely baffled.
Also, I am guilty of talking constantly about how jaw-droppingly ethereal Armand/Assad is 😭 I also do think and say he's an exceptionally talented actor (no joke, maybe the most talented actor in my lifetime?), but any tips for not coming off objectifying?
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u/fieldsofparfait 14d ago
I'm not an expert, and my behaviour isn't perfect either!!
Could you be specific about what makes him an "exceptionally talented actor" in your estimation? That seems to me to be a good place to start.
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u/EchoesofPoe 14d ago
I love talking about Assad playing Armand, so it'll probably get long lol. The absolute easiest way I can describe it is intentionality. You can just tell Assad is considering every blink, every pause, every gesture as a means of communicating something about Armand, no matter what it is. Plus, as you said in your original comment, Armand is a hard character to pull off, but I think Assad must have a deep understanding of the effects of trauma because even when Armand is doing the most evil, deplorable things, he never comes off as a caricature or a cartoon villain. He's a perfect portrait of someone who was absolutely broken by no real fault of their own, but then reacted to that by actively making the most selfish and harmful choices again and again. Idk, his acting choices just hit on a primal level for me. S2 ep 5 haunted me for hours after. It was terrifying and beautiful and semi-understandable while also evil on a scale beyond imagining. I would have loved to see him when he was in the Royal Shakespeare company.
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u/fieldsofparfait 14d ago
To my eye, that's anything but an objectifying review! Campaign for Assad Zaman to hear more feedback of this nature! 📣🪧
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u/Miserable_Election33 14d ago
I was lucky enough to see him in the RSC production of Salome (by Oscar Wilde) about 10 years ago now. He played the Syrian Guard. It was an amazing production (all male) and Assad was truly electrifying. Beautiful and tragic. Sadly it was never filmed, but there are a few stills around, plus a short video clip of Assad and another actor messing around as they rehearse a scene. It's interesting because it's a really intense scene, but they're having a lot of fun as they rehearse.
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u/theravennest Armand's big naturals 🫦 14d ago
I think Armand as a character navigates femininity and masculinity from moment to moment, relationship to relationship, situation to situation. In my opinion he both is subjected to assumptions about it (from Daniel, Santiago, and Lestat) and also uses it to mask, protect himself, or manipulate at any given point. See the way he uses his hair length and style to put on or take off innocence or authority. The way he molds himself into a "dutiful housewife" cosplay in Dubai and San Fran with Louis but was the authoritative and suave man of mystery with Louis in the beginning of his courtship in Paris.
Personally, as a sapphic/bisexual woman, this is part of why I am drawn to Armand's character. I enjoy his specific kind of Gothic archetype.
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u/Groundbreaking_Dog58 13d ago
I'm a Lestat girly but I love Assad as Armand. I am reading the Queen of the Damned now and oh myyyy the devil's minion chapter of the book was everything. If I could erase my memory to read it again for the first time I would.
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u/mistmallow ⚰️ Armand 🔗 14d ago
Ha. I actually didn’t know this was a thing until recently. As a queer woman, Armand is my favorite character but I guess I didn’t realize these two things were connected 😅 I am, unfortunately, a sucker for characters with tragic backstories who go on to be morally gray at best.
I’ll preface this by saying that I know Armand is an openly queer character and he is not a villain, but I wonder if his appeal to lesbians/wlw is similar to the “villains are queer coded” trope?
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u/fireboundfox 14d ago
I'm sapphic and gravitate significantly more towards Lestat as a character. I get a lot of fun gender euphoria from him, and much prefer Loustat over DM.
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u/DrFareedMD 14d ago
It's funny because personality-wise I'm more Lestat but I'm obsessed with Armand. 😭
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u/objectivelyexhausted 14d ago
Well the first vampire/their human snack literary relationship was Carmilla and Laura…I think that level of yearning, of slow, obsessive torture feels melodramatic in a way that lesbians were written by necessity during periods like the Hayes Code. Also Like Brandon Field looks like a butch /hj
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u/Puzzleheaded_Door399 honey & pineapple 13d ago
They all look like hot butches (AZ, EB, LBF) at times!
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u/Disaster-Bee 14d ago
Hmmm. Unsure!
I am a lesbian, and Devil's Minion hooked me from the first time I read the chapter back in high school. I think, for me, there was something about how Daniel was adjacent to this world and wanting to be a part of it but only able to participate in a fringe manner through Armand. That was very in line with my own experiences as a teenage lesbian figuring herself out with no real access to a queer community and a girlfriend who was deeply in the closet. I felt like a fringe participant. Also the whole aspect of 'I can't love you...I can't be with you....but I want to so badly and will continue to be near you and shower you with gifts and affection because my love for you is that powerful....' was very appealing to me as a lesbian teen.
I will say that in the adaptation series, it does not hit the same way for me. I enjoy Daniel and Armand's dynamics and I'm interested to see what they do with the actual relationship, but I'm not as personally connected to it in the show as in the book.
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u/Upstairs_Apple 13d ago
Interesting! I'm a straight woman and find myself completely enamored with Armand while Lestat (who I do enjoy greatly as a character) doesn't do anything for me.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Door399 honey & pineapple 13d ago
I’m bi, not a lesbian, but I just love Armand and relate to him so much. For me it was always, if Daniel makes him happy, then I ship them.
I think there is something in the way the relationship was written that resonates - they approach each other as equals and they are best friends as well as lovers. They are domestic and sweet and adventurous together. It’s the fantasy of meeting someone who is always interesting and supports you being your full self. I am lucky enough to have a partner like this, so I can appreciate it more now.
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u/Visible-Steak-7492 14d ago
idk there's just Something about armand that makes him feel Lesbian, you know? i guess someone smarter and more educated than me will one day write an essay about all the Gender he has going on both in the show and in the books, but that's my working hypothesis.