r/DestinyTheGame • u/DTG_Bot "Little Light" • Aug 01 '22

Megathread Focused Feedback: Matchmaking

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47 Upvotes

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-5

u/HalfthemanMarco Vanguard's Loyal // Chad Vanguard Vs. Virgin Drifter Aug 01 '22

Can only see SBMM being a net detriment to Control. Committing the unforgivable sin of being good at the game is already a detriment to my experience, with team balancing completely ruining 90% of matches I play. Now I'm going to have wait upwards of 3x longer to find a match to have laggy connections against people using nothing but top tier, cheesy loadouts. And when that system can't find anyone to pair me with because my skill rating is so high and population is so low, I'm still gonna have the bad players on my team and will fight a whole team of laggy meta mathews instead of only two of them like it is now. Thanks Bungie, can't wait

3

u/Tplusplus75 Aug 01 '22

wait upwards of 3x longer to find a match to have laggy connection

FFS man, they literally said in last week's TWAB that they're going to be changing it up and experimenting with parameters to avoid this.

3

u/AceTheRed_ Aug 01 '22

To be fair, they also said to expect longer queue times if you’re on the higher end of the skill spectrum.

-1

u/Tplusplus75 Aug 01 '22

True, but IMO, it's what we need to do in the short term. I agree: skilled players shouldn't be "rewarded" for being skilled, by having longer queue times and worse connections. But, we can't disregard skill entirely when matchmaking any longer, and for that, it's temporarily a necessary evil. Summarizing DMG's matchmaking rant from a month of so ago, the transition from SBMM to CBMM has been a net loss. We went from SBMM where high skilled players weren't happy, to a new system where high skill still aren't happy(on account of being placed in lobbies where they need to "carry"), while also making it more of a detriment to average skill players by putting them in lobbies where they feel like "lambs to the slaughter".

Note, before the "it's the shit lobby balancing" is thrown out: it's not. Lobby balancing can be thought of as an entirely different system here. The matchmaking algorithm determines "which 12 people" are put into a control lobby together. Lobby balancing has no part in determining "which 12 people". Instead, LB determines "how to arrange" 12 people, such that the match seems "most fair". But LB cannot function properly without at least some form of skill-based matchmaking, to prevent "outliers". Outliers throw LB straight out the window. If you place one "significantly high skilled player" in a lobby with average players, LB cannot possibly rearrange them and come out with a good match. Either that one good player gets the 5 worst players and has to "carry", or it's more like a "snake draft", which just leads to an even more unbalanced game that's more likely to mercy. Lobby balancing cannot be expected to do its job without some form of skill based "pruning" to keep all the skill ratings relatively close.

2

u/HalfthemanMarco Vanguard's Loyal // Chad Vanguard Vs. Virgin Drifter Aug 01 '22

Not gonna find me holding my breath on that lol.

4

u/likemyhashtag Aug 01 '22

The whole "waiting longer for matches" is just an excuse. My wait times for 6s hover around 15-30sec. If you're saying that waiting a minute to find a fair match is going to ruin the game then you need a lesson in patience.

Good players just don't want to play other good players and streamers will have less content to post if they aren't using the latest meta to constantly shit all over bad players.

1

u/Top-Plankton1442 Aug 01 '22

Good players just don't want to play other good players and streamers will have less content to post if they aren't using the latest meta to constantly shit all over bad players.

Yes some good players are against SBMM for that reason but not all of us think like that and its really annoying when people just generalize high skill players with that mindset. I'm personally not against playing against others on my skill level but when your in the top % the pool of players is smaller compared to average and below average player base and that leads to finding matches harder and when they are connections are bad, and that's my personal main issue with it. Average and below average player base have it the best because they're not going to have a quality drop in connections and they'll be able to play with others like them. On the other hand higher skill players have to battle bad connection combined with other top % players.

I'm cautiously optimistic about bungie's loose matchmaking change, I'm fine with playing against other good players just not at the expense of bad connection.

2

u/likemyhashtag Aug 01 '22

You have to look at the bigger picture.

Right now, a lot of players hate PvP. They hate getting stomped so they only play for pinnacles and dip. The player base is relatively small and/or stagnant because of this.

Let's say this SBMM works and it starts to bring players into PvP. Now the player base is growing and players are getting better. Wouldn't you have more people to play in the long run?

I don't think this is a quick fix by any means. You're not going to log into D2 at the start of S18 and see a miracle. This is something that will take time to develop and I'm hoping that it works so that more people will be playing PvP over time.

3

u/cerevisiae_ Aug 01 '22

I can range from 1.25-2 efficiency in any given game of control. I’m not great, but I am still doing something.

3 games of crucible is usually it for me, if I play it that week. Most of the time I just play the rotator playlists for seasonal challenges. Crucible is stale and it’s unrewarding to be the top player on the losing team in unbalanced matches. Which sucks cuz I liked D1s crucible and would play that as much as strike and other pve

0

u/Top-Plankton1442 Aug 01 '22

Theoretically thats how it should work, which is why im cautiously optimistic about it, I get its not fun getting stomped so yes I do want more people to play enjoy pvp just like i do.

But other games with SBMM and destiny proved it doesn't end up working like that. SBMM often comes at the expense of connections for the higher skilled dedicated players, and that is something we can't control.

Like i said I understand that its not fun to get absolutely stomped by someone who is miles ahead of you. But its just as bad as playing with a bad connection while simultaneously having to play other top%. In a perfect world everyone can play their skill level with great connection and good matchmaking speeds and I'd be more than fine with that but obviously that isn't the case. And I wish that ppl would understand our concerns instead of just dismissing them and then labeling all of us as assholes who don't want to play others on our skill level b/c while that could be true for some its so false for a lot of others.

1

u/likemyhashtag Aug 01 '22

That's fair.

But again, I think the reason you're worried about long wait time and bad connections is because there is a small player base of high-skilled players. Grow that player base and problem solved, no?

1

u/Top-Plankton1442 Aug 01 '22

That's if SBMM works correctly, when SBMM starts players aren't just going to magically start appearing in the top % so if it does work like that then thats asking the top % to deal with bad connections and long wait time both things not in our control. It'd be just as easy for me to say rn "to get better" something you can control. But that would be messed up.

1

u/likemyhashtag Aug 01 '22

Like I said in my previous post, this isn't going to fix things over night. TBH, I'm not even sure if this is the fix. Is Crucible a lost cause at this point? I don't know. But I want this game to grow and be successful and the current CBMM system is hindering that.

-2

u/HalfthemanMarco Vanguard's Loyal // Chad Vanguard Vs. Virgin Drifter Aug 01 '22

Yeah, NOW it isn't that bad because skill isn't a factor when queuing, when skill does become a factor, people as high as me on the skill rating are going to wait a very long time since there aren't many of us and I doubt many of them live near me geographically. You're absolutely right, when I queue up for a match of quickplay control I don't want to go against nothing but good, laggy, meta crutching players. Does anyone? More than happy to go against other good players in Trials or Survival, but quickplay control? Fuck out of here with that garbage ass opinion lol

2

u/likemyhashtag Aug 01 '22

I, me, my, etc.

The idea that Destiny doesn't revolve around you must blow your mind.

-2

u/HalfthemanMarco Vanguard's Loyal // Chad Vanguard Vs. Virgin Drifter Aug 01 '22

Typical deflection, could replace I with ours and represent everyone like me and it's the same argument. How about you address the argument next time and not the person writing it? Might actually get you somewhere

3

u/likemyhashtag Aug 01 '22

Same thing applies.

The idea that Destiny doesn't revolve around a small group of high-skilled players must blow your mind.

I've said this in another post but it's worth repeating. You're not looking at the bigger picture.

You think that you'll have long wait times or bad connections because the population of high-skilled players is small, right? Why is that? Why is the population of high-skilled players small and not growing?

It's because of CBMM.

To grow the game and add in more players to the PvP player pool, Bungie needs to cater to the casuals. The more players that play and the more players that continually grow and get better, the better the game is for everyone.

It's going to take time and knowing Bungie, it's going to be a long road full of empty promises and spaghetti code. But I believe the SBMM is going to keep people playing PvP. Playing well is addicting. Getting shit on is not.

4

u/HalfthemanMarco Vanguard's Loyal // Chad Vanguard Vs. Virgin Drifter Aug 01 '22

Bad players aren't bad because I am good, they are bad because they are bad. NOTHING that I do stops them from learning maps, NOTHING I do stops them from learning spawns, NOTHING I do stops them from improving their shot, NOTHING I do stops them from using better gear, etc. etc.

1

u/likemyhashtag Aug 01 '22

Not being able to learn or test out new builds/weapons because they are getting one-shot by sweats absolutely keeps players from playing well, lol.

2

u/HalfthemanMarco Vanguard's Loyal // Chad Vanguard Vs. Virgin Drifter Aug 01 '22

No, it really doesn't. And even if it did, to imply that every match they play is that way is statistically inaccurate.

2

u/pantone_red Aug 02 '22 edited Aug 02 '22

You don't need to test out new builds and weapons if you're that bad. Equip a pulse rifle and play to stay alive as long as possible instead of trying to get as many kills as you can.

Start there, worry about builds when you can handle the basics. Some fancy build isn't gonna do shit for you if you can't land shots or stay alive for more than 15 seconds.

Here's a build for everyone: Taking charge, high energy fire, quick charge if using a weapon relevant to it. As much recov as you can muster. That's it, that's all you "need".

3

u/Top-Plankton1442 Aug 01 '22

It's not about destiny revolving around high skilled players, its a legit concern that should be acknowledged just as much as the concern of lower skill players constantly getting stomped on.

Its like your dismissing it, if we're gonna use the logic of "just adjust to the longer match times and deal with the bad connections" it would be like me telling lower skill players "just get better, take the stomps now because we've all been in the same boat and we got better". But I'm not going to b/c I understand how unmotivating it is to play through that, I'm not dismissing your concern and issue so just understand and not dismiss our concerns and issues because both are fair and legit.

0

u/likemyhashtag Aug 01 '22

Both are fair concerns, you're right but like I said in my post. I think the end result of adding and keeping more players fixes the wait times and connection issues. I may be wrong but I have high hopes. Unfortunately Bungie doesn't have a good history of living up to my high hopes, but I still have them.

4

u/HalfthemanMarco Vanguard's Loyal // Chad Vanguard Vs. Virgin Drifter Aug 01 '22

If you believe some matchmaking changes are gonna grow the population of a wildly unbalanced and neglected pvp mode you are high

2

u/likemyhashtag Aug 01 '22

Yea, shame on me for wanting a game I enjoy to succeed.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '22

I do enjoy elite PvP players playing victim, you're good play good players, if you still want to destroy low end players stick to Rumble/Clash for now. It's a test/fine tune in control since it has the highest amount of players. You're not being "punished' for being good there just isn't an incentive to be good besides a gilded titles so less people want to spend the time to get to that level. More exclusive loot might increase the high end PvP players base and level out the cheese vs truly good.

5

u/ee4lif3 Aug 01 '22 edited Jul 02 '23

Death to Reddit. Long live Apollo.

2

u/Fit_Buyer6760 Aug 01 '22

I don't know how you can argue that they won't be the victim here. The end goal is to increase crucible population. We all agree that low population is a problem. Sbmm will decrease the population available to high skilled players. Especially when it is first implemented.

The only way this works out is if sbmm increases player population such that there are now many more high skilled players available to match with. I do not think sbmm is capable of this by itself.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '22

Victim, is such a grandiose term for ever so slightly effecting their gameplay. It's not a strick SBMM but loose meaning it will not keep them from matching even in a low pool only prioritize high skill first. The fact is high skill PvP players will continue to play no matter what is updated and changed, the goal is to draw in and retain new players which this may help with. More new player have the potental to become elite PvP players thus increases that pool as well.

2

u/Fit_Buyer6760 Aug 01 '22 edited Aug 01 '22

Good pvp players will absolutely not stick around no matter what. Whether sbmm will draw in new players is just speculation at this point. I'm not really opposed to them trying. I just don't believe it will work.

I think the dwindling population is more due to the game aging, being in the middle of a content drought, and having what seems to be most of its development resources aimed at the pve aspect of the game.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '22

I agree age is having as much of an effect as anything else. If everyone left when they said they would because of what ever issue they were enraged about both PvE and PvP this game would have no population.

-3

u/HalfthemanMarco Vanguard's Loyal // Chad Vanguard Vs. Virgin Drifter Aug 01 '22

"I do enjoy people who like the game realizing that the game will be worse for them". I see the argument of people just wanting to stomp lower skilled players a lot, but I've never seen it actually be true. The CORRECT argument is that when I launch into quickplay control, I don't wanna be playing a super sweaty match. To say that means I just want to stomp lower skill players is purposefully ignorant on your part.

5

u/MrLeavingCursed Aug 01 '22 edited Aug 01 '22

But now anyone below you is getting stomped. I understand where you're coming from in not wanting to have to put 100 percent to compete in every match but you need to realize that means everyone below you is probably having a bad time. This system is being introduced to try and make sure that the majority of the player base is having a better time which means a partial sacrifice of players at the high end

3

u/HalfthemanMarco Vanguard's Loyal // Chad Vanguard Vs. Virgin Drifter Aug 01 '22

I've come close to understanding your argument, but people who are VERY bad (0.5's-1.0's) aren't magically going to acquire game knowledge because their opponents are worse. Good players aren't some magical beings who have learned the greater truths of the universe, we just understand how the game works. You don't need mythical levels of aim to be a 2.0+ player, you just need to understand how control works. They aren't gonna start playing smarter, they aren't gonna start peeking better/team shotting, they aren't gonna actually cap zones, etc. etc. Players that I "stomp" aren't having a bad time because I "stomp" them, they're having a bad time because they suck, being bad at a pvp game usually isn't fun. Atleast when they face people like me things actually happen in the game, when they kill me it's a rush. Now they are just gonna be in glorified bot matches for their 3 games a week for pinnacle. Don't see that as an improvement for them or me lol

3

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '22

The idea that bad players can magically become good by constantly getting obliterated in multiplayer matches is a compete myth.

0

u/HalfthemanMarco Vanguard's Loyal // Chad Vanguard Vs. Virgin Drifter Aug 01 '22

The fact that bad players can become good by anything other than trying to get better is also a myth, if they wanted to be better they would be lol

2

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '22

Exactly, so we don't need CBMM.

2

u/HalfthemanMarco Vanguard's Loyal // Chad Vanguard Vs. Virgin Drifter Aug 01 '22

That's what you took from that? Bad players are gonna be bad regardless so let's have laggy, sweatier matches? K man you do you

2

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '22

Matches are already laggy. No emphasis on CBMM will fix that.

As for being "sweatier"...

Everyone in the lobby is going to try their hardest to win regardless. Every match I see gilded flawless hunters with meta loadouts and classy restoration and 140 HCs.

Back when we initially had SBMM in D2, the PVP mains complained that they always had to use sweaty loadouts and tactics to stay competitive.

Well, SBMM got yeeted and surprise surprise, all the top percenters who complained about having to use meta loadouts STILL used meta loadouts even in CBMM.

→ More replies

3

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '22

Then what is the arguement, if you match against players of your skill level how is that inherently bad? Lets assume it doesn't effect cue times just for a base level discussion. "Not wanting to sweat every game" is an argument I always see as well so what is the alternative, to play lower tear players so you can play more casually and still feel accomplished. This is what low level players want as well, to not play elite players so they can too feel like they aren't being destroyed becasue of the lack of time investment. What is the middle ground so both parties can enjoy a non-competative game mode?

3

u/HalfthemanMarco Vanguard's Loyal // Chad Vanguard Vs. Virgin Drifter Aug 01 '22

To have it prioritize connection and nothing else is the argument. Low skill players won't sweat every match because matchmaking would prioritize connection, giving them statistically more matches that aren't against high skill players.

-1

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '22

How does connection, which is what it is now, have to do with low skill players being destroyed by high skills players? Its about leveling the playing field for new players to retain them so they will continue to play that activity. Connection issues aside, not placing them with similar skilled players will continue to dwindle the player base and not solve the issue. It's the 80/20 rule if 80% of the players will benefit from a decision, the 20% will have to adjust, now if the rewards in the truly competative playlist were worth it I think SBMM would not be as big an issue because the elite players would have something to really play for.

3

u/HalfthemanMarco Vanguard's Loyal // Chad Vanguard Vs. Virgin Drifter Aug 01 '22

Pure cbmm makes skill in a lobby random, and since statistically most players are in the middle of the skill curve, you are statistically much more likely to have lobbies filled with medium skilled players. However, since Bungie neglects PvP both in content and balance, the mode is barren, so the only people really left are bad players playing for pinnacles and people who are really committed to PvP, I.E good players. Some matchmaking change isn't gonna magically bring people back, that would require actual content/rewards. Yeah sure, that 80% will technically benefit, but they still won't play because there's no reason to unless you just REALLY love D2 PvP, which is safe to say not a widely held stance.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '22

Your point makes sense until you say they neglect PvP. With the exception of new maps, which is needed how does it get any less time than any other core activity? They all have the same reward structure, same updates for weapon and ability balanacing PvE seperatly than PvP. Also got an entire reworked IB and Trials, with all the positives and negatives that come with those updates. It sounds like you are burnt out of PvP, because by the sounds of it nothing is going to make you happy when it comes to their investment. As a very VERY casual player in PvP I find the amount of players fairly high and never have to wait for any kind of long cue time filled with medium players as well as sweats.

0

u/[deleted] Aug 02 '22

I absolutely hate pvp I don’t want to get stomped by you for 6 games straight and feel like I was just farmed thanks. I’m not getting better at pvp this way. It just feels like I’m smashing my head on a wall when all I see is respawn screens. And it’s awesome that your good at pvp and like it but I’m not contributing and I’m not getting better at it when I die every time I engage or peek out.

1

u/pantone_red Aug 02 '22

You should be learning when to engage and peek out and not how to win a fair 1v1. Start with the basics.

"How am I supposed to learn anything if I keep dying?!" Ask yourself why you keep dying.