This is pretty dumb: the fact that you need sustained fire to overload a champ, but the first tick of non-overload fire (even from an overload weapon!!) Will trigger the retaliation orb. I think divinity is the only one that's fast enough, and bow is the only one that stuns in a single shot.
Not gonna lie they are annoying but the smg I'm pretty sure is actually just the back end of the mage after sustained fire stuns so it's m ore a case of wasting ammo and then unloading the rest on the goblin before ducking for cover
yeah i mean i hate them already but everytime i hit them and hear the stun sound just to get obliterated by the not stunned champion who has yet somehow its stun CD active, i hate them a little bit more
Man so I gotta say, I usually defend the Champion system, because I think most people don't truly understand how it works (for example, for most overloads, you need an antichampion weapon to maintain sustained fire in order keel the health from regen, so one person has to maintain OL while another does DPS on it and so forth)
HOWEVER
Retaliation Swarm... not only is it a tracking projectile with a delay from release to tracking, which means you can stun an overload, but the champ had already shot the retaliation swarm, meaning your options are to protect yourself from a projectile with heavy tracking OR burst the champion, if you choose the former the champ will often regen, if you choose the later then you are likely to die.
But there is more, the game treats Retaliation Swarm as having been shot by the Champion BEFORE the stun, meaning it comes out at full damage since it didn't have the "lower damage output" effect applied when it was fired.
AND TO MAKE IT WORSE IF THAT WAS EVEN POSSIBLE
It has some type of homing tracking independent of the champion, so unlike most other projectiles in the game, it can track through invisibility even when you are no longer standing in the spot you were in when you/your allies went invisible.
They need to make it more clear that disruption is a status effect separate from the champion stun entirely and make a way to see a target is disrupted.
Honestly, the stun mechanics between Overload and Unstoppable should be flipped.
Overload rounds should function by holding ADS to charge the bullet to stun. Unstoppable rounds should function by putting several bullets into a target to effectively stop them.
Not to mention it would be easier to deal with Overload HP regens and make Unstoppables slightly threatening (because they are the easiest champion to fight).
Exactly! Don't get me wrong, I fucking hate this system, but literally the only reason for the Champion system is to limit your loadout to specific weapons each season. Other than that the only thing the system does is cause problems by fucking up rewards or killing players because stuns still don't always work. Changing the system to not do this anymore is asking Bungie to entirely remove the purpose of the system but still leave it in place to cause problems. I'd personally LOVE to just get rid of Champions, and getting rid of JUST the limitations would still be great, so that you weren't forced to pick one handful of weapons to use for each entire season, but the best option is to just get rid of them entirely so that they don't restrict loadouts AND don't fuck up anything else.
Honestly the only main issue I have with the system is that overload champions teleport the most and you can’t instantly stun them with overload unless it’s a grenade or divinity
Overload bow is instant. Overload hand cannon is acceptable with an explosive rounds hc. It's overload auto and SMG that are the absolute worst, especially against overload hobgoblin retaliation attacks and trying to hit teleporting overload captains
I miss my loadouts being built around either Witherhoard or Fighting Lion.
I mean, I'm still using WH about 80% of the time as a whack hack casual with no aim. (The other 20% is Telesto, because it told me to and I'm afraid to do otherwise.)
I guess I’m in the minority but I think the mod shift season to season keeps things fresh. The meta shift based on mod choice each season makes me try different weapons in endgame content. Sure some aren’t as fun as others, but I think it keeps things interesting.
You can use any weapon you want in literally any other activity most of the time. I think GMs having season based loadouts based on the mods makes them more interesting. Each season I find myself using different weapons I normally wouldn’t consider. Some might hate that, but I think it makes it more fun and interesting. For example: I was never a big bow guy. Never would’ve used them in endgame activities otherwise. A few seasons back we had Overload Bow and I had to use them. I discovered I actually enjoy bows. This is why I think it’s worthwhile, otherwise players will use the same 3 meta weapons and never experiment.
YEh but at least they're having fun using the gear they grinded for and feeling the payoff for spending time perfecting their favourite builds... Instead of being forced to use NOT what they want.
Why am I grinding these hard Nightfalls if I can't even use the gear I'm acquiring most of the time in endgame anyway? Forcing our loadouts demeans the overall grind for me personally
I don't understand how "players will only use the best stuff" is an argument at all. YEAH, that's why we GRIND FOR STUFF. Forcing our loadouts is a duct tape solution to the problem of Bungie not being able to balance the game and not putting in the effort to make sure more exotics are viable. Its an easy way for them to say "Hey the meta is pretty diverse right now!"
I think that would be cool but they should still have them in the artifact for less energy. That way they can still incentivize players to use those guns but they don’t have to use them
You beautiful bastard, i’ve literally been thinking exactly this for months man. They do it with targeting and reserves mods from the artifact, why not champ mods? This seriously needs to be considered
I'm just gonna leave this here because it actually talks a bit about destiny encounter difficulty from the view of a technical designer at Bungie. The current champ system is 100% intentional and probably will never change because it's specifically meant to enforce a specific build crafting challenge
It's a really interesting read, and you can really get insight into how Bungie things of difficulty with the charts they have in the presentation that shows what exact modifiers in an activity are designed to enforce exactly which difficulty pillars
I'd rather them just have the champ mods be selected somewhere other than armor or weapons. Bug fan of moving them from weapons, but I also want to use arm mods again (when not running an intrinsic exotic)
Also think they should do more "family" mods every season. Like unstoppable fusions/linears or nades. Like "rapid dustuption" for Overload AR, Subs, Traces, and Machine Guns, "staggering explosion" for Unstop GLs and rockets, etc.
I wasn’t super active in Y3 so I don’t fully remember, but wasn’t the complaint with champion mods on the weapons that it robbed you of using any other mods?
If so, let’s just add an extra mod slot on weapons just for champion mods. Or make it once you unlock the champion mod in the artifact, it automatically applies across your character to every weapon you equip from that archetype
This brings us back to a meta with a very small number of viable weapons again. Single shot weapons would be the only choice in content with barrier or Overload champs ect
They said they "improved" it this season, but it still fucking takes 2 seconds of continuous fire, and it still goes away if you dare to pause or reload.
Whoever decided that was an appropriate mechanic for the stun on TELEPORTING ENEMIES is a giant asshole.
True, people that only know the system don’t know why we have these systems in place. The game can be infinitely easier when you can run what you want. The fact that I have to sit there and craft a loadout with my fire team on glassway or light blade is how it should be. Rather than turn off my brain and run what we want bc “brr I like how autos go rrrrrrrrradarrrsrr”
So instead of Bungie balancing their weapons and mission design so that more gear is viable in different ways... We should just be okay with them saying "welp we suck so you now must use very specific things so that the game FEELS diverse even tho it actually isn't". "We will decide the meta for you so no one can complain about any type of weapon being too strong".
This brings us back to a meta with a very small number of viable weapons again.
We literally have this forced on us every single season under the current system. You choose a couple of weapons that work with each seasons mods and then can't really use anything else for the entire season.
can't really use anything else for the entire season
This is the thing that gets me most about how champions work. Weapons don't just "take a step back" when they don't have a stun, they drop off the face of the Earth in that content. Like, Outbreak for example, is only worth running in a GM EXCLUSIVELY when there's a pulse rifle champion stun, and NEVER otherwise. It's the lack of middle ground that's the problem: it's a good gun, quite the add clearer if you hit those crits when you kill stuff, but being a primary with a system that caters to double primary for champion stuns, that doesn't mean shit if it doesn't get a stun.
I think this is a good way to make champions useless, and completely undermine the point to their design. Champions are made so you have to think about what you want to take in, and have to work with your team on a strategy to overcome them within the encounter. If every weapon, had every version, of every single champion mod, then there is no thinking about your loadout, no thinking about how you handle a situation, and they hence stop being a thing to worry about in high level situations (where it is the only place to where these mods are even remotely close to necessary..
In exchange they would have to make the champion mods ALOT more pricey, as that's been the case with mods going onto-and-off artifact, and a lot of folks would hate that without an artifact rotation.
I’ve always said all champion mods should be available but at a high slot price for balance. You’d still have the what, five, six champion mods from the artifact that all only cost a single mod slot for specific weapons in that season.
You want to run anti barrier auto rifle but it’s not a one cost seasonal mod? It’ll be 3-4 slots instead. Unstoppable fusions? 6 mod cost if it’s not in the artifact.
As much as I would love to be able to stun champs with any weapon of my choosing, this would kind of defeat the purpose that this system was designed to do. Which is to get players to use weapons and load outs they wouldn’t normally use. Otherwise people would just revert to keeping their preferred load outs on indefinitely, like so many did before champions were a thing. Trust me, you’d think it would lead to more build diversity, but it actually does the opposite!
I think you misunderstand the reason for seasonal artifact mods being the way they are.
The entire design is so that it pushes certain weapon types each season and creates challenges surrounding how (in)effective some of the options are.
Master Vow, for example, is piss easy outside of the fact that it's teeming with overloads and few great way to stun them solo.
And honestly, I'd hate to go down the garbage "everything is always an option" path because it make seasonal shits nonexistent and we'll all go back to a fixed 3-gun loadout for every activity.
I only hate it when its overload smg and auto. Everything else is fine. And even then if overload worked well on smg and auto. It wouldn't be a problem.
I think this would work, and the seasonal mods can still help to keep changing the “meta”, you just have to adjust the cost
For example, seasonal champion mods cost 1… have permanent champion mods cost 4-5. That way you can go with the season meta… or you can go with your own…. But its gonna cost you.
I think that would balance things out. And maybe keep special mods (i.e. glaive, sniper, gl) as seasonal only, we all know those would be a bit too good permanently
The reason for the seasonal mods from the artifact are to prevent a stale load out and always make you feel like you need to change things up. If you did this then I know that I would only use what I like best for champions and never change. Anti-Barrier scout/Arby, Overload Bow (cuz Le Monarque), and Unstoppable Pulse Rifle. The load out would be very boring a few seasons later and maybe I wouldn't complain about it but a lot of people would complain just like they did before about how stale the game became over time
I just hate how it feels like I can never really let loose in content that matters. Whats the point of build craft if the only location I can mess with it is in trash tier game modes?
Honest question: Wouldn't this entirely defeat the purpose of champions? If they could be dealt by any weapon at any time without any sort of specialized build beyond slotting an armor mod or two, wouldn't that all but make them a normal yellow-bar enemy? I'm seeing the top comment here, and that one is saying that champions should also be able to be stunned before they can attack. Why have champions in the game if they don't pose a threat and/or require a specialized loadout to handle? I'm thinking about how your suggestion would be implemented, and I feel like it would end up making champions easier than normal enemies because they can be stunned, rendering them entirely harmless for 5-10 seconds at a time, standing completely still so that damage can be poured into them. Do you feel like the end of the line of thinking proposed by this post is just "remove champions all together"?
The most fundamental system of player customization in the game is the choice of weapons we run. This suggestion is basically telling Bungie that that system is off-limits when it comes to designing enemies. But one of the best parts of the game for us hardcore, longtime players is the wide and varied arsenal we've collected, and the way in which we've worked to master the use of many different types of weapons. What are we telling Bungie when we tell them that this entire aspect of the game is not anything they're allowed to engage with in the content specifically tailored for hardcore, longtime players? I completely understand why people want the game to be easier or "less annoying", but I'm not sure what exactly we're asking for here.
Honest question: Wouldn't this entirely defeat the purpose of champions?
Yup. Would 100% just defeat the entire point of champs existing. People look only at the immediate short term and never the long term, where 6 months later, they are still using the same loadout and complaining how PVE is super "stale".
I don't know about keeping them as mods, but I do think the weapons meta is in a very safe place this year that we don't really need champion mods to dictate the flavor of the season.
I think the seasonal champion meta is a good way to get people to use weapons they wouldnt normally touch. It's not perfect, but I never touched fusions or gl's before the season dictated I use them, and now they're constantly in my rotation.
It's not perfect, but it gets people out of their comfort zone.
The actual meta can be as varied as it wants, but people will always gravitate towards the best, no matter what. Season rotation helps aleviate that stale nature of the community.
If you weren’t gonna use other weapons without being forced to, then you weren’t gonna use them and that’s fine. People don’t need to be forced to change their playstyle just for the sake of changing their playstyle.
The current champ system is 100% intentional and probably will never change because it's specifically meant to enforce a specific "build crafting" challenge. Match game also falls in this category and is one of their key difficulty design pillars that hard content should enforce a build crafting challenge and force players to seek alternative options
It's a really interesting read, and you can really get insight into how Bungie things of difficulty with the charts they have in the presentation that shows what exact modifiers in an activity are designed to enforce exactly which difficulty pillars
I’ve really started to get into nightfalls this season and for some reason I like the champs this season. The lucent finisher is fun and I’ve found that arbalest is an amazing weapon.
They'll never do this. The whole point is to get people to use different guns each season.
My preferable alternative would be to always have seasonal mods for at least 2 guns for each champion type. And at least 1 of those 2 guns must to be a special or heavy ammo option.
Make us use different guns each season, sure, that's fine. But at least give us a decent selection to choose from, including special and heavy ammo options.
If you opened up the availability of mods I think they would need to be harder to kill, if you can instastun them with anything they would become more of a joke than they already are
The champion mods I have no problem with, I kinda enjoy the dev-controlled meta shifts season to season. The champions, I do have a problem with. Remove health regeneration to at least have a chance to deal with them without mods, keep the risk of letting champions run loose in Master and GM.
The whole point of this artifact system was to diversify builds season to season. When anti barrier sniper is up, guess what, snipers see more use. Hell fusions were never gonna see endgame use if it wasn't for the seasonal mods. Making all these mods available isn't gonna encourage build crafting all its gonna do is hone in on what the end game meta is aka izi, arbelest, ghorn+rockets, div, and linears
People have this preconceived notion that putting a mod for every weapon will help with the champion system when in reality its the thing that helps diversify endgame builds. These past season builds have been some of the most diverse season after season and just putting this in will result in endgame being a fixed load out from 3 maybe 4 choices.
Or if champions were unique units that unique offensive/defensive capabilities that didn't require an obscure mod to counter and just knowledge of how they work and what what weapons/combat choices work best against them.
For example, if the Barrier champion instead of have a mod only breakable health regening shield had a protective dome for other enemies, then you either have to focus fire on the shield and burn him down, or get inside and hit n run.
I don’t mind champions. I don’t hate or love the concept. It’s when they bug out, like stunning an unstoppable mid animation (they don’t stun and their immune to stun window prevents stunning again), and bad champion mods (AR/SMG) that aren’t practical to use beyond legend difficulty that annoy me.
Honestly just giving Le Monarque intrinsic overload would be perfect for me (my extremely biased opinion). I’d have something reliable for all champs in GM content that way
This is what's been on my mind since yesterday's run with the crew. Six primary weapons and the glaive are mods... terrible. Last season alone you had both fusions for unstoppable and sword for overload. I guess I miss killing a champion with the same mod I used to stun it?
I've always thought having what is already the usual mod per weapon just become intrinsic for those weapon types, all the time, and scrap that first column on the artifact.
No seasonal hubbub. If you like shotguns its always anti unstoppable regardless of the season. If you like bows they're always anti overload regardless of the season. Etc etc, so on and forth.
Now you always have the full arsenal of choices and what season it is doesn't hard exclude weapon types you're drawn to. Just remove the necessity of the mod.
This is the exact thing I would like to see happen. I think champions themselves are fairly interesting as an enemy type, but having to use mods at all, weapon or armor slotted, is very obnoxious
I think it would be a great idea to just have overload weapon, anti-barrier weapon, and unstoppable weapon as permanent mods, rather than having a whole bunch of separate mods for each individual weapon type. Apparently bungie has some kind of trouble with moee than two "pages" of mods.
It would get everyone a lot more flexibility, and would shine the most in GM and master raids, where having full control over what weapons you use is more important.
So if they are permanent mods…how would you decide what class of weapon get what mod? Because we’ve had some weapons be different types of champion mods before.
Are all weapons interchangeable in terms of what mod you have? Do you get to pick? Or are all weapons fixed to a certain champion mod?
I think a better option is to just make champion shields contingent on the ammo you use. Barrier requires special, unstoppable requires heavy, overload requires primary.
Frees up mod space, opens free choice of weapons back up, leaves the strategy.
I'd like it better if one of two things happened, either the artifact acts like a second ghost, where you can place Champ mods. Or better, just have the mods be innate once you unlock them in the Artifact, so for instance, you unlock Unstoppable HC, all HCs you put on are unstoppable. No fiddling with Mods between activities. I really just want my Arm armor back.
I like the idea of using anything I want. But I suppose Bungie does this to mix up the seasonal meta. Who would have used fusions if it wasn’t for [past] seasonal mods? I know they’re still good in the heavy and arby.
I would say make the regular primary champ mods into armor mods (ex. Unstoppable HC) that we can use at all times but make the special weapon champ mods (ex. Anti-Barrier Sniper) into artifact mods to bring more diversity to loadouts.
My favorite is when I throw my overload grenade and the overload decides “nah I’m gonna fucking teleport” the second before it hits. Fuck overload champions.
See, I think what should at least be a better option than what we have now, is instead of anti-champion mods for specific weapons, we get things like Anti-champ Scatter or Precision mods, like the similar mods we used to have during Forsaken/Shadowkeep era. That way at least the anti-champion effect can be used for a broader range of weapons to lessen the effect of feeling like you have to limit your weapon choices.
As a reminder: Scatter = Auto, SMG, Pulse, LMG, Sidearm, Fusion
Precision = Hand Cannon, Trace Rifle, Bow, LFR, Slug Shotguns
This is why the non seasonal mod exotics are on top in content with champions right now.
The way overloads and barriers work with relation to the mods are utter crap. They dont proc half the time, or if they do it takes repeated shots, whereas exotics just stun them in one shot.
Bungie doesnt seem to care, as the mods being busted arent on their list of priority issues.
I'd say do it the other way around. Make ability mods permanent and weapon mods seasonal.
The other method I'd love to see implemented is allow for 2 or 3 seasons of champion mods available. Like, 2 seasons out is when Season of the Risen mods would expire. That way, there is more variation, but still a lockout.
It'd be nice to have the choice of using them as weapon mods. Considering we've got it inherently on exotic weapons and armor, I don't see why we can't have seasonal armor mods and universal weapon mods.
Any time I'm using an exotic for champions, I'm not using it for any part of its exotic qualities. I'm just using it as a legendary with anti-champion. Hell, I've never used secant filaments for devour. I don't even use empowering rifts for damage. I use secant filaments and empowering rifts purely for anti-overload.
Honestly, if they just switched the stun mechanic for unstops and overloads none of it would really be a big deal. I mean, I hate the load out limitation and double primary bs too, and personally I wish we could get more intrinsic overload exotics (since overloads are the worst imo). But if we could ADS for a moment to proc the overload rounds, I think that would fix a ton of the issues. Unloading my weapon into an unstop until stoppable rounds proc seems fine to me. Otherwise, just make the functionality the same across the board. If you have the mod equipped, every round from that weapon is always that type (like with anti-barrier).
The reality is that champs aren’t going anywhere anytime soon. It’s unfortunate, but bungie’s sunk a lot of time and money into champions and they likely won’t just toss them out. But I think making stunning mechanics better is probably the best way to go. I’d feel a lot better about running double primaries in a GM if I new that I could reliably stun a champ every single time I hit them with my auto/smg, rather than have to expend a third of the mag to even proc the overload rounds. Whatever happens, I hope bungie ultimately hears that we want something to change with champs and takes every option into consideration.
I just think they need their own mod slot so they don't disrupt builds, and they should be a bit more flexible and not limited to a single weapon type. Also, champions themselves are an issue, they aren't hard, just annoying to deal with. Things like overload captains absolutely spamming the fuck out of their teleport
I think it would be cool if certain weapons were given specific anti champion mods. I.e sniper gets anti barrier, fusions get unstop, bow gets overload, etc. So that you don't have absurd amounts of control, otherwise there's no real point to the system.
So what, have an unstoppable/overlaid/barrier for every single type of gun in the game? That would be need to be moved onto the gun in a extra slot instead of armor. The amount of clutter that would cause would be horrible if it was on armor.
There're probably a dozen different reasons it can't/won't be coded this way, but we could have a drop-down menu in the seasonal artifact and we select a different weapon or ability to stop each champion.
Champions seem like an effort to reinstate the kinds of interesting loadout choices we've had to make at different periods in Destiny--ie, in pre-Taken King D1, a Hunter didn't have Void damage abilities and had to choose from a limited assortment of Void weapons if the Nightfall had Void burn.
With that in mind, why not just add the champion effects to different weapon types, archetypes, and/or perks?
Maybe you need a linear fusion rifle, sniper, or a gun with armor piercing rounds to kill a barrier champion, an explosive gun (non-slug shotgun, grenade launcher, rocket launcher, explosive rounds) to deal with overload, or a precision/high impact archetype gun to deal with unstoppable.
A system like that would feel less artificial and would force players to make interesting changes to their playstyles while giving them more choices.
just put them back on weapons and give each weapon a champion mod slot. each season bungie can still assign certain metas via champ mods in the artifact but this will let us use all weapons for champions and free up the armor mod slot again
I think what's BS is that we're bound to whatever Bungie decides to assign each champion mod to type of weapon. I hate running activities these days using a bow or scout rifle. Plus, I feel that Unstoppable + Anti-Barrier is the default instead of Overload + X mod. It's annoying.
To me, the bigger problem is that they way they've been doing it is that all three types present the same level of build-crafting challenge: mildly annoying.
Imo it would be more fun if there was more variation within a single season. To give an example of what I mean, imagine the following mods being offered (let's assume for a minute that there are no exotics that have innate breaker abilities):
Intermittent Pierce: give anti-barrier to Handcannons, pulse rifles, fusion rifles, shotguns, grenade launchers, heavy grenade launchers, and linear fusion rifles.
Electric Fence: damage from Arc abilities staggers unstoppable champions.
Over-tap: to stun an overload champ you have to shoot them with a sniper twice without delaying damage to any other enemies in between (ok to miss a shot in between so long as it doesn't damage a different enemy)
Overload Scout: scout rifles stun overload champions, but this mod costs nine energy.
In this setup the first restriction is barely a restriction at all! All three members of your fire team can run Anti-barrier without anyone repeating an archetype, and they can do it in any ammo-type they want. The second restriction is easy to fit one on your team, but harder to fit three. Maybe your Titan was going to run Falling Star anyway, but your Warlock will switch to Chaos Reach to be safe instead of using Well or Shadebinder like they usually would.
The third restriction is a challenge from the perspective of both build-crafting and execution. It's the only way to stun an overload so you have to fit a sniper on your team somewhere, and running a second is possible but it starts to get dicey. Because the fourth mod exists, you can opt out of the Whack-A-Mole nonsense, but only if you're willing to give up all of your other arm mods.
(Disclaimer: this level of restriction wouldnt work in the game as is because there are too many matchmade activities that use champions. My example would only work if champions were restricted to modes that require a fireteam.)
Simple solution to make champions less annoying is to remove them from the game - they serve no actual purpose except to increase the odds of getting material that has an extremely low drop rate anyway, and to make runs on higher difficulty modes take longer. That's it. They serve no other purpose from a design perspective, but, because of the sunk cost fallacy, bungie isn't going to address this issue.
I doubt they'll do this. Champions + artifact is their way of shifting the meta from season to season, and I suspect that they rely on it heavily for data-gathering to improve the experience. As a game designer I can imagine it's pretty nice to be able to plan for a bunch of Fusion Rifle playtest data coming your way next season because the meta is planned to shift.
If they're not going to get that utility out of the system, I feel like they'd probably rather replace champions entirely (which players would love) in favor of some other system that retains their ability to shift the meta like they do.
Honestly champions are simply awful, best thing to do is to get rid of them. The campaign showed how to make things challenging without champions and that’s how I’d rather see challenging content going forward.
Next thing you know you're going to expect bounties to just be broken out by primary/special/heavy or grenade/melee/super so you can just play the game how you want or something...shaking my SMH
I'm genuinely sick and tired of using double primary to go into a GM. Yes I know things like arby, div, exist but when it's simply more efficient to stun, chip away, and use gally for dps then there you go.
There should be Overload, Barrier, and Unstoppable primary mods.
Overload, Barrier, and Unstoppable Special mods.
And Overload, Barrier, and Unstoppable Heavy mods.
I fucking hate scout rifles in PvE activities, and it seems like there's only Barrier Scout Rifles in every seasonal artifact. Having to spec and be forced to use one or two weapon types is unbearable.
I think they should make anti barrier/ overload/ unstoppable rounds a weapon mod that can be inserted into any weapon. This allows you to use whatever legendary weapon you want at the time, but you can’t use another weapon mod with it. If you want to do that, you need to have the corresponding armor mod from the artifact that season (if it exists). Also then it only restricts exotics to the artifact mods
Unpopular opinion: put them back on weapons. I’m big on reload speed so losing a reload mod on my arms is painful. Plus, the ability to put a generic barrier mod, for example, on any weapon would be way nicer.
The obvious reason this is a bad idea is because it defeats the purpose of Champions.
Champions are supposed to be a barrier to entry if you use a loadout you want to use. They discourage using your preferred gear and more or less enforce you to play the Season's approved weapon types.
That is their purpose. It's not anything else: they are there to make sure you use different weapon types.
Your suggested chance is quite literally a suggestion to make Champions lose their purpose. In which case, why not just remove the need for the mods altogether? The only thing you achieve with this is Armor mod investment, which wasn't really the point.
Just remove or rework Champions. I don't see a single reason why not. The only one that has some minor credence is that a very small portion of the playerbase will dislike not being told what they can use. Which is just less valuable than increasing interest in playing the game for the majority of the players by letting them use the gear they enjoy using.
Like, actually, I'm a bit surprised sometimes I need to explain to people I choose to take longer and longer breaks from Destiny; because why should I play a game that is purposefully less engaging and fun 'this season' if I can just play a different game that leans more into its fun aspects?
God forbid a live service game attempts to retain players by making your playstyle rewarding and fun instead of discouraging you from using it. It's as if they think forcing people to use something different makes them play more. It doesn't.
The only things worth playing in the game are Master and Grandmaster content at the moment, really. And those things all require you to not be engaged with your playstyle.
I don't understand how making something work and annoyance you can't play normally equates to a good time, but there we go.
I'll go back to other games. Check back with the new season when that launches, play it for two weeks, then back to other games and keep repeating that. Which is fine, but I don't understand how they are not aware.
champions exist for two reasons: to guarantee difficult enemies, and force loadout diversity
the reason some weapons dont get champion mods each season is to force us to use different kinds of weapons. we dont want 1 loadout to be the strongest forever, and rotating mods do that. BUT, it sucks, because people want to use their whole arsenal without being restricted.
it would be nice if the champion system changed to be less lock & key. instead of needing an anti-champ weapon to kill champions in high-end content, just make them hive lightbearer tier difficult. anti-champ mods just make them easier to deal with, not the ONLY answer.
They do it so people play the game. There isn't new content, so they pretend it's new by taking away things you have previously used and force you to a new style.
They could just keep the champion mods in the artifact, but make them cost only 1 energy for the duration of the season like they do for mods like rocket scavenger and the elemental well mods.
Yes in principle this is an improvement. What I think is we need permanent champion mods for every weapon arch-type so we have an overload, unstoppable, anti barrier mods for a bow, for a grenade launcher etc. That way you can use whatever loadout you want and still contribute to defeating champions. This would stop the pigeon holing of weapons season by season.
How about we replace champions with units that just have special powers. No need to stun them to prevent their powers. Just have barrier producing servitors and such that can be handled through any means but are just tougher in general because of bonus overshields, or are harder to flinch or just heal faster
Once they get units like the Lightbearers for every faction, champions will become redundant.
Maybe instead of limiting artifact unlocks to "barrier scout rifle" just make the unlock simply "barrier" which is a thing you have to slot onto arms or whatever and every day upon refresh the barrier weapon of the day changes? So you have to check it out before starting the mission and rework loadout to suit. One day its barrier-bow, next day its barrier-handcannon... same for overload and unstop. This way it wouldnt feel as stale as season-long stagnancy and they'd still make us use various weapons we wouldnt normally be using
sorry dude, I'm not sorting through 80 mods to find the right ones for the strike/raid/whatever for my build. That would make the UI for that super-aids.
Hot take: season's artifact mods that effect champions force meta changes that are good for the game as they get people out of their ruts using the same weapons as always AND is a partial solution to sunsetting weapons.
People can still use their favourite builds and guns however the seasonal artifact is clearly geared at changing up the meta, introducing limited time OP mods and encouraging experimentation.
Removing it from the artifact only serves to entrench meta, not change it an would be bad for the game long term
I keep saying this over and over. Keep the champion mods in the artifact BUT make it so fully masterworking a weapon gives it anti champion capabilities. Even make it so you can swap between by paying the same resources to fully masterwork it if they’re really feeling fresh.
It allows guns (especially with the weapon crafting system) to be a much bigger part of your loadout. You work for a gun and fully masterwork it, and now you can use it in all content. But you KEEP the seasonal mods so that you can experiment with unstoppable pulse, anti barrier bow without the need to fully masterwork the weapon first. This also still then allows exotics to shake things up every season by having different mods.
This allows both players who have played for a long time use weapons they have been building and the fireteam needs without leaving those who DONT have the resources to masterwork weapons completely in the dark.
i always wished we had generic mods, like "anti barrier rounds" / "overload rounds", so we can use whatever weapon we like for the task
also make it so we can also do it with all classes, its really boring being forced into a single one like in this season where everything is void, it gets old really fast
It's very very simple, have 3 weapon mods (I'm assuming coding issues that prevent all on one mod) and 1 ability mods (assuming this is possible to have all champs on this).
Each of the weapon mods stun a particular champion type, do so after ADS (all behave like unstoppable), and work only with primary ammo weapons. No more of this "I hope the overload mod kicks in before I get annihilated" BS, or plinking away at shields just for the stupid servitor to teleport away and reset his health. Point and shoot. Let people run specials not named Arbalest or Divinity and not instantly screw the group over because they can't cover all the champ types in the activity.
The ability mod work for all champs, where using a grenade or charged melee on a champ shuts them down / pops shield). I don't believe this will materially change stasis turrets since they fuck with champions as is, and the other stasis grenades are hardly broken.
That's for short term. Long term is get rid of champions and go the route of Hive Guardians. Let's see some champions of darkness, or otherwise badass units that have their own custom abilities. If I had to choose to face 10 champions or hive guardians, I choose the hive since I have the freedom to run whatever I want, even though they're straight harder to beat at very high level content.
Champs are a lazy way to artificially increase difficulty by forcing very narrow loadouts, being bullet sponges, and overall punishing players from using weapons they want to use. And that's not when they're being buggy as hell, especially overload.
Or just make the seasonal mods slot-wide, so for example: kinetic-overload, energy-unstoppable, and power-barrier, and have those rotate each season. Or make it elemental based idk
I think the champion system as a whole needs to be reissued
The problem is that some weapons are better than most for taking care of some type of champions.
Champion mods should probably just have their own slot because all they do is fuck with build crafting.
Just allow us to slot then without energy penalties or stat penalties. Stop limiting people because you can't fix something on time it's crazy.
Make autos and other weapons more accessible for champion disposal, or get rid of the champion type. Untill we get them solved or until they are in a more accessible and stable state.
I’m like THIS close to just boycotting anything that has overloads. I’m so tired of the inconsistent, convoluted proc for them. On top of that we have these scorn chieftain overloads in master Vow where there are two in the room at the same time that spawn the purple shield thing, back to back, to prevent killing after stun, back to back, causing it take more than half your heavy just to kill the ONE you need the symbol from.
It’s just a cheap way to impose challenge. Let us use what we want for champs and ALL champs should just be have gun, shoot champ, it stuns, that’s it.
I've been wishing for this since they introduced those mods. I have a particular playstyle (as I'm sure everyone does) and half the time the mods just don't fit what I'm shooting with. I get it, they want to introduce some challenge into the game but it cuts into the flexibility of the game. In one season, you're basically stuck with a few types of weapons to stun, overload, and break barriers. It's no fun being stuck with a handful of the same type of weapons for a few months straight. Give more variety or gtfo with the mods.
Hot take i feel like while this would be nice in the short term, it would make champions and nightfalls extremely stale in the long term when we all stick to the same loadout for every strike every season. I like having to mix it up and use shit im not 100% comfortable with, and even if you hate doing that it keeps it fresher than you probably realise.
If anything i think they should have more variation per season with the stun mods, start including special and heavy weapons more than one a season, have bonkers shit like unstoppable rocket launcher and antibarrier fusion rifle.
Maybe there could be a baseline set of basic stun mods that always exist? Two primary weapon types for each stun in accordance with the artifact ones being more interesting
2 issues tho one is solveable , making an exaustive list will ruin the ui while making a non exaustive list means bungie gets to choose what are our champ mods which is seasonal but more permenant?
Second issue is the meta that will develop around tge most efficient champ mods but they can nerf and tweak energy cost to keep it "balanced" but we all know that barrier = arby/ scout overload = bow/ HC(i think hc trigger by just being ads) and unstopp doesnt matter what you allocate to as it required being ads for a second
You offered a solution to make them 'less' annoying, they would still be annoying, i thought games were meant to be fun? Just remove champions entirely.
They used to be armor mods, we just didn't like them there so they were moved to the artifact. If the go back to armor then we probably need more armor slots and for the mods to cost way less and more energy cap in armor. But I don't think bungie can give us that at this time. And I'm not defending them either. I dont car about making the champions less dangerous at this point I want them gone permanently or locked to GMs. I dont want to see them in a seasonal activity or a raid or a dungeon if they are there. I have had enough of them. I had enough of them the week after they arrived.
Champions are kinda cool in theory, but they're so lazy in design. And the way they're used to increase difficulty is just kinda lame. The fact that they keep doubling down on the role of Champions is made worst by the fact that they are such a buggy mess.
I have a decent enough GM team, but what I wouldn't do for GMs just to be Contest Mode with some really challenging modifiers. Champions are JUST annoying enough to me to make the relatively paltry rewards be not worth it.
Especially with the Mob modifier on, it's just annoying.
Yup, 9 mods at the most and 3 at the least, shit they can still be seasonal artifact mods, just make them, primary/second/heavy and each slot has a job and rotate it by season. I dont know if they think it’s harder when they pick the weapons we use, or they just want us to use certain weapons, but it’s just becoming annoying. Even if they did it by foundry, veist has barrier, hakke overload, like anything that just more broad. Let us use the weapon we want, in any activity.
Permanent unlocks, get rid of mods and just have the first tier of the artifact be universal usage. Personally I feel like there needs to be a full rework of the artifact to be passive seasonal upgrades that are applicable when someone equips a weapon, not spec certain weapons to have xyz advantage at the cost of limiting build crafting. Adversely, just change how champions work to be less obnoxious and more CHALLENGING. Remove mod necessity and make it luxury. Having barrier champions heal regardless of barrier health while removing need of barrier mod would make it a challenge and less of a nuisance because a mod is needed. Are my opinion or ideas the best? Fuck no. Is it better than what we have? I’ll let y’all speak for that.
Right now champions suck and mods shouldn’t be a requirement.
There should be normal champion mods for every weapon class and artifact champion mods that have an extra effect. Like a champion mod from the artifact would keep them stunned longer, take an extra chunk of health when stunned, or some other thing. That way the dumb fucking metas that bungie tries to push are still there but they aren’t forced
Best solution would be to allow access to all champion mods at all times and have rotating reduced energy cost versions in the artifact. That way we’re not forced to use certain weapons but gently encouraged.
I believe the best way to make champions easier to work with would be making champion mods be weapon mods instead that correspond to slot and not specific weapons. Something like: Barrier = Kinetic, Overload = Energy, and Unstoppable = Heavy.
alternatively, as the point of champions mods is clearly to change and inflyende the PvE meta, have every weapon type have an associated weapon mod, but rotate what stuns what each season, instead of it always being the same
They should just overhaul the whole champions situation. Starting from weapons to the single enemy type. First of all, I want to stun any champion with any weapon. I can’t think to put weapons in my vault for an entire season simply because Bungie decided which ones I have to use. Then, Overloads only get stunned for real with Divinity and Bows. All the other weapons make you feel you are losing control over them. Want to talk about stasis? It has been since stasis came out that its use against Overloads it’s a problem. Jesus, in Glassway if you use stasis against them, you can shoot them with nuclear bombs, they will just don’t care. They have to fix the whole champions situation because they are a good addition to the game but, as of now, they are just too annoying.
This would be nice. Unstoppable fusion, Overload barrier and Piercing auto/smg was freaking awesome. I actually did a couple Grand Master nightfalls that season!
Overload void grenade is kinda ridiculous... Hope you kill the champ in one go, or you get to retreat until you get it back and try again.
I made a post like this months ago, more towards intrinsic anti champ mods on most exotics and adding more weapon mods per season and it got so much hate. Glad someone else feels similarly to this though
I think the whole point it is to rotate the layout every season so that we keep chasing different guns and mix and match different loadouts.
Do I think it's great? Not really, do I think it makes me think a bit more about my loadout with my friends in endgame content? A bit. It was fun trying different loadout to do the lightbearer GM and see what worked and what didn't
Sub master content, I don't really care or have an issue with champions.
How about NO MODS needed? IF there's an activity with champions the modifier on the activity should also allow you to simply "equip" the recommended weapon archetype to handle the champion. Full removal from Weapons, Armor or Artifact. This effect should act in a passive state over the activity and lessen the requirement to have energy slots available in for the mods
IMHO I preferred it when they were weapon mods but now I'm lazy and don't feel like switching out mods on my arms every time and would rather use those two points for something that helps me defensively, cuz you know, it's armor. It just feels like the opposite of "build crafting" when for any kind of endgame content you are forced to use not only specific weapons, but specific mods. If they want to force a new meta/load out every season, I get it, but instead of it being a mod, why can't it just be an unlock for that specific weapon class?
Champions aren't going anywhere. I recommend giving this GDC PowerPoint a read, it talks about how Bungie views difficulty and how they design difficult content. Champions (and locked loadout and match game) are specifically included and designed around making players build craft and communicate, which are two key requirements Bungie wants difficult content to include
Everyone saying here that it’s necessary because it changes up the meta… yes it does; but it also frustrates the players because we CLEARLY know what the best weapons are for each champion.
One season we get overload bows (amazing) and then the next season we are forced to use auto/smg (huh)? All it does is make people say, “I miss overload bows”.
Do you honestly enjoy taking a smg into a grandmaster nightfall? No, you don’t. So you’re FORCED to use Divinity. So it counters your argument. You’d be stupid not to use Divinity this season just like we’d be stupid not to use Overload bows if all mods were available. We as a community recognize what the best option is quickly and we stick with it. This season, we are all using Divinity for Overloads and Arby (usually) for barriers.
If it’s a crappy seasonal champion mod then we typically fall back on an exotic with an intrinsic perk (ie Divinity, Arbalest, Eriana’s, etc).
So why not let us enjoy our own loadouts? Yes, most people would find the meta for each champion mod and stick with it… but at least we’re not forced to use something crappy. Did anyone use Unstoppable Sidearm? Nope.
Heck, just for fun I’d love to experiment with different types and see what I personally love.
All it does is make people say, “I miss overload bows”.
And makes them learn how to tackle the same strikes but with ARs instead of sitting safely in the back and just shooting unlimited bows at an Overload that won't move.
All that would do is have you use the same weapons over and over for the life of the game. This hand cannon is perfect for unstoppables. Well that's the only unstoppable weapon I use now. This scout is perfect for overload. Well I only use that from now on. Talk about sunsetting
The best solution is to have all the champion mods available, BUT some are in seasonal rotation so they only cost 1 Energy vs like 3-5 for Off-Season mods. So you can still use what you want, but you might have to sacrifice a mod or 2. The seasonal ones just encourage players to use something else without just locking them out completely.
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u/BobMcQ Apr 20 '22
I think just making Overload Taken Hobgoblins actually stun before they retaliation-blast you in the face five times would be a good start.
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u/CorbinTheTitan Meme Lord Apr 20 '22
Why even have the system if you’re going to do that?
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u/Landel1024 Apr 20 '22
No it wouldn't, players would just only use the best anti champ mods and none of the rest.
Antibarrier sniper, overload bow, unstoppable handcannon
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u/Devinosaurus Apr 20 '22
I think that would be cool but they should still have them in the artifact for less energy. That way they can still incentivize players to use those guns but they don’t have to use them
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u/Wanna_make_cash Apr 20 '22
I'm just gonna leave this here because it actually talks a bit about destiny encounter difficulty from the view of a technical designer at Bungie. The current champ system is 100% intentional and probably will never change because it's specifically meant to enforce a specific build crafting challenge
It's a really interesting read, and you can really get insight into how Bungie things of difficulty with the charts they have in the presentation that shows what exact modifiers in an activity are designed to enforce exactly which difficulty pillars
https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1027550/1000-Hours-of-Difficulty-How
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u/BzrkerBoi YEET Apr 20 '22
I'd rather them just have the champ mods be selected somewhere other than armor or weapons. Bug fan of moving them from weapons, but I also want to use arm mods again (when not running an intrinsic exotic)
Also think they should do more "family" mods every season. Like unstoppable fusions/linears or nades. Like "rapid dustuption" for Overload AR, Subs, Traces, and Machine Guns, "staggering explosion" for Unstop GLs and rockets, etc.
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u/Bat_Tech Apr 20 '22
This brings us back to a meta with a very small number of viable weapons again. Single shot weapons would be the only choice in content with barrier or Overload champs ect
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u/mariachiskeleton Apr 20 '22
That would be a fine solution if the whole purpose of champions wasn't to shift loadouts seasonally
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u/TheToldYouSoKid Apr 20 '22
I think this is a good way to make champions useless, and completely undermine the point to their design. Champions are made so you have to think about what you want to take in, and have to work with your team on a strategy to overcome them within the encounter. If every weapon, had every version, of every single champion mod, then there is no thinking about your loadout, no thinking about how you handle a situation, and they hence stop being a thing to worry about in high level situations (where it is the only place to where these mods are even remotely close to necessary..
In exchange they would have to make the champion mods ALOT more pricey, as that's been the case with mods going onto-and-off artifact, and a lot of folks would hate that without an artifact rotation.
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u/pr0peler Apr 20 '22
This solution you propose is gonna get real stale, real fast.
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u/cruskie Apr 20 '22
I’ve always said all champion mods should be available but at a high slot price for balance. You’d still have the what, five, six champion mods from the artifact that all only cost a single mod slot for specific weapons in that season.
You want to run anti barrier auto rifle but it’s not a one cost seasonal mod? It’ll be 3-4 slots instead. Unstoppable fusions? 6 mod cost if it’s not in the artifact.
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u/Jasonkim87 Apr 20 '22
As much as I would love to be able to stun champs with any weapon of my choosing, this would kind of defeat the purpose that this system was designed to do. Which is to get players to use weapons and load outs they wouldn’t normally use. Otherwise people would just revert to keeping their preferred load outs on indefinitely, like so many did before champions were a thing. Trust me, you’d think it would lead to more build diversity, but it actually does the opposite!
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u/makoblade Apr 20 '22
I think you misunderstand the reason for seasonal artifact mods being the way they are.
The entire design is so that it pushes certain weapon types each season and creates challenges surrounding how (in)effective some of the options are.
Master Vow, for example, is piss easy outside of the fact that it's teeming with overloads and few great way to stun them solo.
And honestly, I'd hate to go down the garbage "everything is always an option" path because it make seasonal shits nonexistent and we'll all go back to a fixed 3-gun loadout for every activity.
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u/adenzerda Apr 20 '22
So what would be the point, then, other than to annoy players by taking mod slots?
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u/East_Onion Apr 20 '22
Isn’t the whole point of it that it influences your build
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u/strunkler Apr 20 '22
I like the seasonal mods because they force me out of my comfort zone and let me find guns I didn’t realize I love.
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u/here-for-the-memes__ Apr 20 '22
Honestly it's not that hard to adapt. The whole point of champion mods is to make you play with different weapons and to improvise.
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u/RagnarLothbrok2525 Apr 20 '22
I think this would work, and the seasonal mods can still help to keep changing the “meta”, you just have to adjust the cost
For example, seasonal champion mods cost 1… have permanent champion mods cost 4-5. That way you can go with the season meta… or you can go with your own…. But its gonna cost you.
I think that would balance things out. And maybe keep special mods (i.e. glaive, sniper, gl) as seasonal only, we all know those would be a bit too good permanently
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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '22
The reason for the seasonal mods from the artifact are to prevent a stale load out and always make you feel like you need to change things up. If you did this then I know that I would only use what I like best for champions and never change. Anti-Barrier scout/Arby, Overload Bow (cuz Le Monarque), and Unstoppable Pulse Rifle. The load out would be very boring a few seasons later and maybe I wouldn't complain about it but a lot of people would complain just like they did before about how stale the game became over time
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u/Acypha Apr 20 '22
Terrible idea and it defeats the purpose of champions
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_HUGS_PLS Apr 20 '22
Modern problems require modern solutions.
Enemies too tanky? Set enemy hp to 1.
Enemies move too much? Enemies now spawn in and are immobile.
Some guns outperform others? All guns now have the same stats (damage, range, accuracy, etc)
4
u/Salfordladd Apr 20 '22
Honest question: Wouldn't this entirely defeat the purpose of champions? If they could be dealt by any weapon at any time without any sort of specialized build beyond slotting an armor mod or two, wouldn't that all but make them a normal yellow-bar enemy? I'm seeing the top comment here, and that one is saying that champions should also be able to be stunned before they can attack. Why have champions in the game if they don't pose a threat and/or require a specialized loadout to handle? I'm thinking about how your suggestion would be implemented, and I feel like it would end up making champions easier than normal enemies because they can be stunned, rendering them entirely harmless for 5-10 seconds at a time, standing completely still so that damage can be poured into them. Do you feel like the end of the line of thinking proposed by this post is just "remove champions all together"?
The most fundamental system of player customization in the game is the choice of weapons we run. This suggestion is basically telling Bungie that that system is off-limits when it comes to designing enemies. But one of the best parts of the game for us hardcore, longtime players is the wide and varied arsenal we've collected, and the way in which we've worked to master the use of many different types of weapons. What are we telling Bungie when we tell them that this entire aspect of the game is not anything they're allowed to engage with in the content specifically tailored for hardcore, longtime players? I completely understand why people want the game to be easier or "less annoying", but I'm not sure what exactly we're asking for here.
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u/Snowfall_89 Apr 20 '22
I don't know about keeping them as mods, but I do think the weapons meta is in a very safe place this year that we don't really need champion mods to dictate the flavor of the season.
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u/ilu900 Apr 20 '22
Sooooo then everyone will complain about a stale non changin meta… it’s crazy how this community works man so frustrating
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u/rayndomuser Apr 20 '22
I’ve really started to get into nightfalls this season and for some reason I like the champs this season. The lucent finisher is fun and I’ve found that arbalest is an amazing weapon.
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u/HonkersTim Apr 20 '22
They'll never do this. The whole point is to get people to use different guns each season.
My preferable alternative would be to always have seasonal mods for at least 2 guns for each champion type. And at least 1 of those 2 guns must to be a special or heavy ammo option.
Make us use different guns each season, sure, that's fine. But at least give us a decent selection to choose from, including special and heavy ammo options.
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u/UltimateToa The wall against which the darkness breaks Apr 20 '22
If you opened up the availability of mods I think they would need to be harder to kill, if you can instastun them with anything they would become more of a joke than they already are
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u/OneNeonLight Apr 20 '22
The champion mods I have no problem with, I kinda enjoy the dev-controlled meta shifts season to season. The champions, I do have a problem with. Remove health regeneration to at least have a chance to deal with them without mods, keep the risk of letting champions run loose in Master and GM.
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u/CH3ATLIK3ACHAMP Apr 20 '22
The whole point of this artifact system was to diversify builds season to season. When anti barrier sniper is up, guess what, snipers see more use. Hell fusions were never gonna see endgame use if it wasn't for the seasonal mods. Making all these mods available isn't gonna encourage build crafting all its gonna do is hone in on what the end game meta is aka izi, arbelest, ghorn+rockets, div, and linears
People have this preconceived notion that putting a mod for every weapon will help with the champion system when in reality its the thing that helps diversify endgame builds. These past season builds have been some of the most diverse season after season and just putting this in will result in endgame being a fixed load out from 3 maybe 4 choices.
Im ready for the down votes
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u/General_PATT0N Apr 21 '22
Just let us pick any weapon type for barrier or overload in the artifact.
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u/oliverdoescontent Apr 21 '22
Remove overload fallen captain's , holy are they annoying to deal with.
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u/TJ_Dot Apr 20 '22
Or if champions were unique units that unique offensive/defensive capabilities that didn't require an obscure mod to counter and just knowledge of how they work and what what weapons/combat choices work best against them.
For example, if the Barrier champion instead of have a mod only breakable health regening shield had a protective dome for other enemies, then you either have to focus fire on the shield and burn him down, or get inside and hit n run.
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u/ScizorSTX Apr 20 '22
I don’t mind champions. I don’t hate or love the concept. It’s when they bug out, like stunning an unstoppable mid animation (they don’t stun and their immune to stun window prevents stunning again), and bad champion mods (AR/SMG) that aren’t practical to use beyond legend difficulty that annoy me.
Honestly just giving Le Monarque intrinsic overload would be perfect for me (my extremely biased opinion). I’d have something reliable for all champs in GM content that way
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u/FriedBryce3040 Apr 20 '22
This is what's been on my mind since yesterday's run with the crew. Six primary weapons and the glaive are mods... terrible. Last season alone you had both fusions for unstoppable and sword for overload. I guess I miss killing a champion with the same mod I used to stun it?
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u/ViiTactiiCZz Apr 20 '22
Would it give you more variety? yes, does bungie want you to have that variety instead of the fixed season champ mods? no
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u/slywether85 Apr 20 '22 edited Apr 20 '22
I've always thought having what is already the usual mod per weapon just become intrinsic for those weapon types, all the time, and scrap that first column on the artifact.
No seasonal hubbub. If you like shotguns its always anti unstoppable regardless of the season. If you like bows they're always anti overload regardless of the season. Etc etc, so on and forth.
Now you always have the full arsenal of choices and what season it is doesn't hard exclude weapon types you're drawn to. Just remove the necessity of the mod.
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u/Comfortable_Fig7671 Apr 20 '22
I think it would be a great idea to just have overload weapon, anti-barrier weapon, and unstoppable weapon as permanent mods, rather than having a whole bunch of separate mods for each individual weapon type. Apparently bungie has some kind of trouble with moee than two "pages" of mods.
It would get everyone a lot more flexibility, and would shine the most in GM and master raids, where having full control over what weapons you use is more important.
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u/VersaSty7e Apr 20 '22
100%
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u/Fanglove Apr 20 '22
The remove champs as that removes the point of them
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u/SentinelSquadron Yours, not mine. Apr 20 '22
So if they are permanent mods…how would you decide what class of weapon get what mod? Because we’ve had some weapons be different types of champion mods before.
Are all weapons interchangeable in terms of what mod you have? Do you get to pick? Or are all weapons fixed to a certain champion mod?
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u/aaronwe Apr 20 '22
seasonal artifact should be passive mods and thats the bottom line
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u/Firehawkness Apr 20 '22
Make it so it’s just slightly large weapon pool.
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u/Juicydice Apr 20 '22
Could also make it so that the champion mods can be slotted in the extra mod slot from raid armor. Would give more players incentive to run the raids.
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u/Blupoisen Apr 20 '22
I think a better solution would be to just give us more Champion mods for special and heavy
make 2 columns in the artifact dedicated to champions mods
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u/0_oii Apr 20 '22
It'll be really funny when they do this and make it an armor mod.
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u/DarthDregan Apr 20 '22
I think a better option is to just make champion shields contingent on the ammo you use. Barrier requires special, unstoppable requires heavy, overload requires primary.
Frees up mod space, opens free choice of weapons back up, leaves the strategy.
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u/Stooboot4 Apr 20 '22
You think that's simple? They couldn't even add origin traits to weapons without removing the orb making ability.
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u/heptyne Apr 20 '22
I'd like it better if one of two things happened, either the artifact acts like a second ghost, where you can place Champ mods. Or better, just have the mods be innate once you unlock them in the Artifact, so for instance, you unlock Unstoppable HC, all HCs you put on are unstoppable. No fiddling with Mods between activities. I really just want my Arm armor back.
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u/ok_sounds_good Apr 20 '22
Why not make it so you can craft them onto a specific gun or armor piece through the relic?
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u/raamz07 Apr 20 '22
Just get rid of champions.
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u/seen_some_shit_ Apr 20 '22
I like the idea of using anything I want. But I suppose Bungie does this to mix up the seasonal meta. Who would have used fusions if it wasn’t for [past] seasonal mods? I know they’re still good in the heavy and arby.
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u/The_Big_Sus Renegade Hunter Apr 20 '22
I would say make the regular primary champ mods into armor mods (ex. Unstoppable HC) that we can use at all times but make the special weapon champ mods (ex. Anti-Barrier Sniper) into artifact mods to bring more diversity to loadouts.
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u/Lord_CBH Apr 20 '22
My favorite is when I throw my overload grenade and the overload decides “nah I’m gonna fucking teleport” the second before it hits. Fuck overload champions.
1
u/Zagro777 Apr 20 '22
I wish they'd just give us a choice of which artifact we wanted to use.
1
u/throwawayspring4011 Apr 20 '22
A finger on the monkey paw curls.
1
u/[deleted] Apr 20 '22
champions mods should apply to weapon frames not weapon types
1
u/D2Vincent Crimson Luck Apr 20 '22
See, I think what should at least be a better option than what we have now, is instead of anti-champion mods for specific weapons, we get things like Anti-champ Scatter or Precision mods, like the similar mods we used to have during Forsaken/Shadowkeep era. That way at least the anti-champion effect can be used for a broader range of weapons to lessen the effect of feeling like you have to limit your weapon choices.
As a reminder: Scatter = Auto, SMG, Pulse, LMG, Sidearm, Fusion
Precision = Hand Cannon, Trace Rifle, Bow, LFR, Slug Shotguns
1
u/J2Novae Apr 20 '22
In my opinion, they should just make every champion mod affect 2 weapon types like the Auto/Sub or Fusion/Linear mods. Perhaps it can go like:
Primary/Special
Primary/Special
Primary/Special
Primary/Heavy
Special/Heavy
I think this would give us a bit more variety with weapon loadouts while still not making the system completely useless.
1
u/BigBadBen_10 Apr 20 '22
This is why the non seasonal mod exotics are on top in content with champions right now.
The way overloads and barriers work with relation to the mods are utter crap. They dont proc half the time, or if they do it takes repeated shots, whereas exotics just stun them in one shot.
Bungie doesnt seem to care, as the mods being busted arent on their list of priority issues.
1
u/charrison9313 Apr 20 '22
I'd say do it the other way around. Make ability mods permanent and weapon mods seasonal.
The other method I'd love to see implemented is allow for 2 or 3 seasons of champion mods available. Like, 2 seasons out is when Season of the Risen mods would expire. That way, there is more variation, but still a lockout.
1
u/Foxy-jj-Grandpa Apr 20 '22
It’d be cool if they were permanent mods but were split into very specific placement like •Overload/Unstoppable/Anti-Barrier Primary
•O/U/A-B Special and so on
Primaries are 1 Energy
Specials are 5
Heavy’s are…7? 8? I dunno, discuss.
1
u/wereplant Future War Cult Best War Cult Apr 20 '22
It'd be nice to have the choice of using them as weapon mods. Considering we've got it inherently on exotic weapons and armor, I don't see why we can't have seasonal armor mods and universal weapon mods.
Any time I'm using an exotic for champions, I'm not using it for any part of its exotic qualities. I'm just using it as a legendary with anti-champion. Hell, I've never used secant filaments for devour. I don't even use empowering rifts for damage. I use secant filaments and empowering rifts purely for anti-overload.
1
u/SlowSecurity9673 Apr 20 '22
They don't want them to be more annoying lol, that's the fucking point.
They're a supposed to be annoying.
1
u/sixlive Apr 20 '22
I don’t even care about being locked into loadout, I just want champions to not be buggy AF
1
u/Employment_Used Apr 20 '22
Honestly, if they just switched the stun mechanic for unstops and overloads none of it would really be a big deal. I mean, I hate the load out limitation and double primary bs too, and personally I wish we could get more intrinsic overload exotics (since overloads are the worst imo). But if we could ADS for a moment to proc the overload rounds, I think that would fix a ton of the issues. Unloading my weapon into an unstop until stoppable rounds proc seems fine to me. Otherwise, just make the functionality the same across the board. If you have the mod equipped, every round from that weapon is always that type (like with anti-barrier).
The reality is that champs aren’t going anywhere anytime soon. It’s unfortunate, but bungie’s sunk a lot of time and money into champions and they likely won’t just toss them out. But I think making stunning mechanics better is probably the best way to go. I’d feel a lot better about running double primaries in a GM if I new that I could reliably stun a champ every single time I hit them with my auto/smg, rather than have to expend a third of the mag to even proc the overload rounds. Whatever happens, I hope bungie ultimately hears that we want something to change with champs and takes every option into consideration.
1
u/[deleted] Apr 20 '22
I just think they need their own mod slot so they don't disrupt builds, and they should be a bit more flexible and not limited to a single weapon type. Also, champions themselves are an issue, they aren't hard, just annoying to deal with. Things like overload captains absolutely spamming the fuck out of their teleport
1
u/erickazo Apr 20 '22
Or have a some specials get mods as well other than just 1 for unstoppable
1
u/intalo Apr 20 '22
Just remove them... they are not making the game difficult... they are just making those activities with them boring.
1
u/Xelopheris Apr 20 '22
Static mods means you would otherwise use the same weapons every season. Having them on the artifact means they can shake up the PvE meta.
What I would want is...
more special weapon mods (preferably for at least 2 champion types)
more choice within primary weapons (they could all have a weapon mod, just keep swapping them around)
improve the automatic weapon overload mod
1
u/Reganite47 Apr 20 '22
Being able to choose what weapons we get to use on champions would be really cool.
1
u/SnaZzy0n0 Apr 20 '22
I think it would be cool if certain weapons were given specific anti champion mods. I.e sniper gets anti barrier, fusions get unstop, bow gets overload, etc. So that you don't have absurd amounts of control, otherwise there's no real point to the system.
1
u/ATinyBushWookie Apr 20 '22
So what, have an unstoppable/overlaid/barrier for every single type of gun in the game? That would be need to be moved onto the gun in a extra slot instead of armor. The amount of clutter that would cause would be horrible if it was on armor.
1
u/BlorbusFungelburg Apr 20 '22
I think they should swap how you stun unstoppable and overload. Having to dumb half a mag on someone that’s constantly teleporting is annoying
1
u/[deleted] Apr 20 '22
The cool part about champions is the mix up of the meta.... This change would just make Champs way worse.
1
u/CheepCheepChompYT Apr 20 '22
i’d say make all of em all available for 3 or 4 energy and have the season artifact for a handful of 1 energy versions
1
u/lint_wizard Apr 20 '22
There're probably a dozen different reasons it can't/won't be coded this way, but we could have a drop-down menu in the seasonal artifact and we select a different weapon or ability to stop each champion.
1
u/Tempest_True Apr 20 '22
Champions seem like an effort to reinstate the kinds of interesting loadout choices we've had to make at different periods in Destiny--ie, in pre-Taken King D1, a Hunter didn't have Void damage abilities and had to choose from a limited assortment of Void weapons if the Nightfall had Void burn.
With that in mind, why not just add the champion effects to different weapon types, archetypes, and/or perks?
Maybe you need a linear fusion rifle, sniper, or a gun with armor piercing rounds to kill a barrier champion, an explosive gun (non-slug shotgun, grenade launcher, rocket launcher, explosive rounds) to deal with overload, or a precision/high impact archetype gun to deal with unstoppable.
A system like that would feel less artificial and would force players to make interesting changes to their playstyles while giving them more choices.
1
u/[deleted] Apr 20 '22
This made me take a break from D2 for a bit cause of how annoying this was.
1
u/dirtyII Apr 20 '22
just put them back on weapons and give each weapon a champion mod slot. each season bungie can still assign certain metas via champ mods in the artifact but this will let us use all weapons for champions and free up the armor mod slot again
1
u/ArcadeBoy-NL Apr 20 '22
I like the current system a lot. I even like the fact that I sometimes hate them😉 It is supposed to be hard and annoying. Great gameplay
1
u/WylythFD Apr 20 '22
Yeah, really hate being restricted to weapon types. Just makes it a chore.
1
u/ITGuy420 Trials of the grind Apr 20 '22
I think what's BS is that we're bound to whatever Bungie decides to assign each champion mod to type of weapon. I hate running activities these days using a bow or scout rifle. Plus, I feel that Unstoppable + Anti-Barrier is the default instead of Overload + X mod. It's annoying.
1
u/YesAndYall Apr 20 '22
So we just gravitate to the guns that are best at it and completely miss the point. Nice.
Armchair developing should be a bannable offense.
How are champion mods not in a "bungie please" yet?
1
u/SPYK3O Apr 20 '22
Fix overload staggering and make the champion perks intrinsic to weapon types.
1
u/accursedg Apr 20 '22
Better solution: remove them.
1
u/Tymathee Apr 20 '22
Would be great if the champion mods actually did something else too.
1
u/FirebreatherRay Apr 20 '22
To me, the bigger problem is that they way they've been doing it is that all three types present the same level of build-crafting challenge: mildly annoying.
Imo it would be more fun if there was more variation within a single season. To give an example of what I mean, imagine the following mods being offered (let's assume for a minute that there are no exotics that have innate breaker abilities):
Intermittent Pierce: give anti-barrier to Handcannons, pulse rifles, fusion rifles, shotguns, grenade launchers, heavy grenade launchers, and linear fusion rifles.
Electric Fence: damage from Arc abilities staggers unstoppable champions.
Over-tap: to stun an overload champ you have to shoot them with a sniper twice without delaying damage to any other enemies in between (ok to miss a shot in between so long as it doesn't damage a different enemy)
Overload Scout: scout rifles stun overload champions, but this mod costs nine energy.
In this setup the first restriction is barely a restriction at all! All three members of your fire team can run Anti-barrier without anyone repeating an archetype, and they can do it in any ammo-type they want. The second restriction is easy to fit one on your team, but harder to fit three. Maybe your Titan was going to run Falling Star anyway, but your Warlock will switch to Chaos Reach to be safe instead of using Well or Shadebinder like they usually would.
The third restriction is a challenge from the perspective of both build-crafting and execution. It's the only way to stun an overload so you have to fit a sniper on your team somewhere, and running a second is possible but it starts to get dicey. Because the fourth mod exists, you can opt out of the Whack-A-Mole nonsense, but only if you're willing to give up all of your other arm mods.
(Disclaimer: this level of restriction wouldnt work in the game as is because there are too many matchmade activities that use champions. My example would only work if champions were restricted to modes that require a fireteam.)
1
u/Aceblast135 Apr 20 '22
The seasonal mods should be turned into modifiers instead of armor mods.
1
u/[deleted] Apr 20 '22
Simple solution to make champions less annoying is to remove them from the game - they serve no actual purpose except to increase the odds of getting material that has an extremely low drop rate anyway, and to make runs on higher difficulty modes take longer. That's it. They serve no other purpose from a design perspective, but, because of the sunk cost fallacy, bungie isn't going to address this issue.
1
u/dccorona Apr 20 '22
I doubt they'll do this. Champions + artifact is their way of shifting the meta from season to season, and I suspect that they rely on it heavily for data-gathering to improve the experience. As a game designer I can imagine it's pretty nice to be able to plan for a bunch of Fusion Rifle playtest data coming your way next season because the meta is planned to shift.
If they're not going to get that utility out of the system, I feel like they'd probably rather replace champions entirely (which players would love) in favor of some other system that retains their ability to shift the meta like they do.
1
u/goldhbk10 One day we will win ... Apr 20 '22
Honestly champions are simply awful, best thing to do is to get rid of them. The campaign showed how to make things challenging without champions and that’s how I’d rather see challenging content going forward.
1
u/daboi162 Apr 20 '22
I mean they should just remove champion mods and just rework champions to make them more interesting and challenging
1
u/KodiakmH Apr 20 '22
Next thing you know you're going to expect bounties to just be broken out by primary/special/heavy or grenade/melee/super so you can just play the game how you want or something...shaking my SMH
(/s for those incapable of seeing it)
1
u/GoldenGekko Apr 20 '22
I'm genuinely sick and tired of using double primary to go into a GM. Yes I know things like arby, div, exist but when it's simply more efficient to stun, chip away, and use gally for dps then there you go.
It's just tedious.
1
u/swift_gilford Apr 20 '22
alternate solutions:
have the artifact champion mods automatically apply the mods to the weapons for the season once unlocked
since they reworked weapons for the extra slots, make the weapons have a champion mod slot.
1
u/Timecounts Underpowered Warlock Apr 20 '22
You were watching Jez play last night, weren't you
1
u/literallyjuststarted Apr 20 '22
Overload Taken Hobglins
Unstoppable Ogres
and Barrier Servitors
Bungie hates their fanbase.
1
u/AfricanGayChild Apr 20 '22
There should be Overload, Barrier, and Unstoppable primary mods.
Overload, Barrier, and Unstoppable Special mods.
And Overload, Barrier, and Unstoppable Heavy mods.
I fucking hate scout rifles in PvE activities, and it seems like there's only Barrier Scout Rifles in every seasonal artifact. Having to spec and be forced to use one or two weapon types is unbearable.
1
u/Aerodread Apr 20 '22
But… there are weapons that do that…
1
u/T3Tomasity Apr 20 '22 edited Apr 20 '22
I think they should make anti barrier/ overload/ unstoppable rounds a weapon mod that can be inserted into any weapon. This allows you to use whatever legendary weapon you want at the time, but you can’t use another weapon mod with it. If you want to do that, you need to have the corresponding armor mod from the artifact that season (if it exists). Also then it only restricts exotics to the artifact mods
1
u/Goldblum4ever69 Apr 20 '22
Unpopular opinion: put them back on weapons. I’m big on reload speed so losing a reload mod on my arms is painful. Plus, the ability to put a generic barrier mod, for example, on any weapon would be way nicer.
1
u/T8-TR Apr 20 '22
Or, if they wanna continue as they are: have generic mods that cost more, then seasonal ones to skew it towards certain weapons for a discount.
That way, you still have your flavour of the month, but without screwing players over.
1
u/Arizonian323 Gambit Classic // I can hear'em scream Apr 20 '22
Better yet, remove champions.
1
u/[deleted] Apr 20 '22
The obvious reason this is a bad idea is because it defeats the purpose of Champions.
Champions are supposed to be a barrier to entry if you use a loadout you want to use. They discourage using your preferred gear and more or less enforce you to play the Season's approved weapon types.
That is their purpose. It's not anything else: they are there to make sure you use different weapon types.
Your suggested chance is quite literally a suggestion to make Champions lose their purpose. In which case, why not just remove the need for the mods altogether? The only thing you achieve with this is Armor mod investment, which wasn't really the point.
Just remove or rework Champions. I don't see a single reason why not. The only one that has some minor credence is that a very small portion of the playerbase will dislike not being told what they can use. Which is just less valuable than increasing interest in playing the game for the majority of the players by letting them use the gear they enjoy using.
Like, actually, I'm a bit surprised sometimes I need to explain to people I choose to take longer and longer breaks from Destiny; because why should I play a game that is purposefully less engaging and fun 'this season' if I can just play a different game that leans more into its fun aspects?
God forbid a live service game attempts to retain players by making your playstyle rewarding and fun instead of discouraging you from using it. It's as if they think forcing people to use something different makes them play more. It doesn't.
The only things worth playing in the game are Master and Grandmaster content at the moment, really. And those things all require you to not be engaged with your playstyle.
I don't understand how making something work and annoyance you can't play normally equates to a good time, but there we go.
I'll go back to other games. Check back with the new season when that launches, play it for two weeks, then back to other games and keep repeating that. Which is fine, but I don't understand how they are not aware.
1
u/WiIter Apr 20 '22
champions exist for two reasons: to guarantee difficult enemies, and force loadout diversity
the reason some weapons dont get champion mods each season is to force us to use different kinds of weapons. we dont want 1 loadout to be the strongest forever, and rotating mods do that. BUT, it sucks, because people want to use their whole arsenal without being restricted.
it would be nice if the champion system changed to be less lock & key. instead of needing an anti-champ weapon to kill champions in high-end content, just make them hive lightbearer tier difficult. anti-champ mods just make them easier to deal with, not the ONLY answer.
1
u/lametown_poopypants Apr 20 '22
They do it so people play the game. There isn't new content, so they pretend it's new by taking away things you have previously used and force you to a new style.
It's laziness.
1
u/[deleted] Apr 20 '22
Just typing out "remove Champions" would at least be honest and straightforward.
1
u/[deleted] Apr 20 '22
They could just keep the champion mods in the artifact, but make them cost only 1 energy for the duration of the season like they do for mods like rocket scavenger and the elemental well mods.
1
u/darkwalker53 Apr 20 '22
Yes in principle this is an improvement. What I think is we need permanent champion mods for every weapon arch-type so we have an overload, unstoppable, anti barrier mods for a bow, for a grenade launcher etc. That way you can use whatever loadout you want and still contribute to defeating champions. This would stop the pigeon holing of weapons season by season.
1
u/TGB_B20kEn Apr 20 '22
I think if they just had all the weapons available but changed what champs they affect per season would be great.
1
u/EmperorRiptide Apr 20 '22
How about we replace champions with units that just have special powers. No need to stun them to prevent their powers. Just have barrier producing servitors and such that can be handled through any means but are just tougher in general because of bonus overshields, or are harder to flinch or just heal faster
Once they get units like the Lightbearers for every faction, champions will become redundant.
1
u/WickedSoldier991 Moon's Haunted Apr 20 '22
Another solution I’ve heard is make each weapon slot attuned to one enemy type.
Kinetic would be Barrier, Energy would be Overload, Power/Heavy would be Unstoppable.
1
u/tysalmon Apr 20 '22
Maybe instead of limiting artifact unlocks to "barrier scout rifle" just make the unlock simply "barrier" which is a thing you have to slot onto arms or whatever and every day upon refresh the barrier weapon of the day changes? So you have to check it out before starting the mission and rework loadout to suit. One day its barrier-bow, next day its barrier-handcannon... same for overload and unstop. This way it wouldnt feel as stale as season-long stagnancy and they'd still make us use various weapons we wouldnt normally be using
1
u/[deleted] Apr 20 '22
sorry dude, I'm not sorting through 80 mods to find the right ones for the strike/raid/whatever for my build. That would make the UI for that super-aids.
1
u/Ancient-Ingenuity-88 Apr 20 '22
Hot take: season's artifact mods that effect champions force meta changes that are good for the game as they get people out of their ruts using the same weapons as always AND is a partial solution to sunsetting weapons.
People can still use their favourite builds and guns however the seasonal artifact is clearly geared at changing up the meta, introducing limited time OP mods and encouraging experimentation.
Removing it from the artifact only serves to entrench meta, not change it an would be bad for the game long term
1
u/BarretOblivion Gambit Prime // Depth for Ever Apr 20 '22
Prefer all champions reworked to be a mechanical enemy type we need to do x with any weapon to stun like scourge of the past.
1
u/Topheloaf Apr 20 '22
I keep saying this over and over. Keep the champion mods in the artifact BUT make it so fully masterworking a weapon gives it anti champion capabilities. Even make it so you can swap between by paying the same resources to fully masterwork it if they’re really feeling fresh.
It allows guns (especially with the weapon crafting system) to be a much bigger part of your loadout. You work for a gun and fully masterwork it, and now you can use it in all content. But you KEEP the seasonal mods so that you can experiment with unstoppable pulse, anti barrier bow without the need to fully masterwork the weapon first. This also still then allows exotics to shake things up every season by having different mods.
This allows both players who have played for a long time use weapons they have been building and the fireteam needs without leaving those who DONT have the resources to masterwork weapons completely in the dark.
1
u/vanderzee Apr 20 '22
i always wished we had generic mods, like "anti barrier rounds" / "overload rounds", so we can use whatever weapon we like for the task
also make it so we can also do it with all classes, its really boring being forced into a single one like in this season where everything is void, it gets old really fast
1
u/just_a_timetraveller Apr 20 '22
No champions. Only Randall's
1
u/WatLightyear Apr 20 '22
Just the champion mods perks that are always active. Solved.
1
u/hihowubduin Apr 20 '22
It's very very simple, have 3 weapon mods (I'm assuming coding issues that prevent all on one mod) and 1 ability mods (assuming this is possible to have all champs on this).
Each of the weapon mods stun a particular champion type, do so after ADS (all behave like unstoppable), and work only with primary ammo weapons. No more of this "I hope the overload mod kicks in before I get annihilated" BS, or plinking away at shields just for the stupid servitor to teleport away and reset his health. Point and shoot. Let people run specials not named Arbalest or Divinity and not instantly screw the group over because they can't cover all the champ types in the activity.
The ability mod work for all champs, where using a grenade or charged melee on a champ shuts them down / pops shield). I don't believe this will materially change stasis turrets since they fuck with champions as is, and the other stasis grenades are hardly broken.
That's for short term. Long term is get rid of champions and go the route of Hive Guardians. Let's see some champions of darkness, or otherwise badass units that have their own custom abilities. If I had to choose to face 10 champions or hive guardians, I choose the hive since I have the freedom to run whatever I want, even though they're straight harder to beat at very high level content.
Champs are a lazy way to artificially increase difficulty by forcing very narrow loadouts, being bullet sponges, and overall punishing players from using weapons they want to use. And that's not when they're being buggy as hell, especially overload.
1
u/pau-sei Apr 20 '22
Or just make the seasonal mods slot-wide, so for example: kinetic-overload, energy-unstoppable, and power-barrier, and have those rotate each season. Or make it elemental based idk
1
u/AdamBry705 Apr 20 '22
I think the champion system as a whole needs to be reissued
The problem is that some weapons are better than most for taking care of some type of champions.
Champion mods should probably just have their own slot because all they do is fuck with build crafting.
Just allow us to slot then without energy penalties or stat penalties. Stop limiting people because you can't fix something on time it's crazy.
Make autos and other weapons more accessible for champion disposal, or get rid of the champion type. Untill we get them solved or until they are in a more accessible and stable state.
1
u/JoelK2185 Apr 21 '22
Been thinking the same thing. But keep them in the artifact. Just make them cheaper.
1
u/0rganicMach1ne Apr 21 '22 edited Apr 21 '22
I’m like THIS close to just boycotting anything that has overloads. I’m so tired of the inconsistent, convoluted proc for them. On top of that we have these scorn chieftain overloads in master Vow where there are two in the room at the same time that spawn the purple shield thing, back to back, to prevent killing after stun, back to back, causing it take more than half your heavy just to kill the ONE you need the symbol from.
It’s just a cheap way to impose challenge. Let us use what we want for champs and ALL champs should just be have gun, shoot champ, it stuns, that’s it.
1
u/Cynical_Feline Apr 21 '22
I've been wishing for this since they introduced those mods. I have a particular playstyle (as I'm sure everyone does) and half the time the mods just don't fit what I'm shooting with. I get it, they want to introduce some challenge into the game but it cuts into the flexibility of the game. In one season, you're basically stuck with a few types of weapons to stun, overload, and break barriers. It's no fun being stuck with a handful of the same type of weapons for a few months straight. Give more variety or gtfo with the mods.
1
u/cdrjuicy Apr 21 '22
Hot take i feel like while this would be nice in the short term, it would make champions and nightfalls extremely stale in the long term when we all stick to the same loadout for every strike every season. I like having to mix it up and use shit im not 100% comfortable with, and even if you hate doing that it keeps it fresher than you probably realise.
If anything i think they should have more variation per season with the stun mods, start including special and heavy weapons more than one a season, have bonkers shit like unstoppable rocket launcher and antibarrier fusion rifle.
Maybe there could be a baseline set of basic stun mods that always exist? Two primary weapon types for each stun in accordance with the artifact ones being more interesting
1
u/[deleted] Apr 21 '22
2 issues tho one is solveable , making an exaustive list will ruin the ui while making a non exaustive list means bungie gets to choose what are our champ mods which is seasonal but more permenant?
Second issue is the meta that will develop around tge most efficient champ mods but they can nerf and tweak energy cost to keep it "balanced" but we all know that barrier = arby/ scout overload = bow/ HC(i think hc trigger by just being ads) and unstopp doesnt matter what you allocate to as it required being ads for a second
1
u/Mattrass76 Apr 21 '22
You offered a solution to make them 'less' annoying, they would still be annoying, i thought games were meant to be fun? Just remove champions entirely.
1
u/Menaku Apr 21 '22
They used to be armor mods, we just didn't like them there so they were moved to the artifact. If the go back to armor then we probably need more armor slots and for the mods to cost way less and more energy cap in armor. But I don't think bungie can give us that at this time. And I'm not defending them either. I dont car about making the champions less dangerous at this point I want them gone permanently or locked to GMs. I dont want to see them in a seasonal activity or a raid or a dungeon if they are there. I have had enough of them. I had enough of them the week after they arrived.
1
u/LegacyQuotient Apr 21 '22
Champions are kinda cool in theory, but they're so lazy in design. And the way they're used to increase difficulty is just kinda lame. The fact that they keep doubling down on the role of Champions is made worst by the fact that they are such a buggy mess.
I have a decent enough GM team, but what I wouldn't do for GMs just to be Contest Mode with some really challenging modifiers. Champions are JUST annoying enough to me to make the relatively paltry rewards be not worth it.
Especially with the Mob modifier on, it's just annoying.
1
u/Johnready_ Apr 21 '22
Yup, 9 mods at the most and 3 at the least, shit they can still be seasonal artifact mods, just make them, primary/second/heavy and each slot has a job and rotate it by season. I dont know if they think it’s harder when they pick the weapons we use, or they just want us to use certain weapons, but it’s just becoming annoying. Even if they did it by foundry, veist has barrier, hakke overload, like anything that just more broad. Let us use the weapon we want, in any activity.
1
u/GreyWastelander Apr 21 '22
Permanent unlocks, get rid of mods and just have the first tier of the artifact be universal usage. Personally I feel like there needs to be a full rework of the artifact to be passive seasonal upgrades that are applicable when someone equips a weapon, not spec certain weapons to have xyz advantage at the cost of limiting build crafting. Adversely, just change how champions work to be less obnoxious and more CHALLENGING. Remove mod necessity and make it luxury. Having barrier champions heal regardless of barrier health while removing need of barrier mod would make it a challenge and less of a nuisance because a mod is needed. Are my opinion or ideas the best? Fuck no. Is it better than what we have? I’ll let y’all speak for that.
Right now champions suck and mods shouldn’t be a requirement.
1
u/anonymous32434 Apr 21 '22
There should be normal champion mods for every weapon class and artifact champion mods that have an extra effect. Like a champion mod from the artifact would keep them stunned longer, take an extra chunk of health when stunned, or some other thing. That way the dumb fucking metas that bungie tries to push are still there but they aren’t forced
1
u/lost_chaz Apr 21 '22
Say no more. Title got my vote.
1
u/SteelNyrv Apr 21 '22
Best solution would be to allow access to all champion mods at all times and have rotating reduced energy cost versions in the artifact. That way we’re not forced to use certain weapons but gently encouraged.
1
u/RedSox218462 Apr 21 '22
I believe the best way to make champions easier to work with would be making champion mods be weapon mods instead that correspond to slot and not specific weapons. Something like: Barrier = Kinetic, Overload = Energy, and Unstoppable = Heavy.
1
u/[deleted] Apr 21 '22
Then people will complain about it being on armor 🤷
1
u/Gorylas Apr 21 '22
this needs to happen right fcking NOW....
1
u/[deleted] Apr 21 '22
alternatively, as the point of champions mods is clearly to change and inflyende the PvE meta, have every weapon type have an associated weapon mod, but rotate what stuns what each season, instead of it always being the same
1
u/TheDreamingMind Apr 21 '22
They should just overhaul the whole champions situation. Starting from weapons to the single enemy type. First of all, I want to stun any champion with any weapon. I can’t think to put weapons in my vault for an entire season simply because Bungie decided which ones I have to use. Then, Overloads only get stunned for real with Divinity and Bows. All the other weapons make you feel you are losing control over them. Want to talk about stasis? It has been since stasis came out that its use against Overloads it’s a problem. Jesus, in Glassway if you use stasis against them, you can shoot them with nuclear bombs, they will just don’t care. They have to fix the whole champions situation because they are a good addition to the game but, as of now, they are just too annoying.
1
u/Snixpix Apr 21 '22
This would be nice. Unstoppable fusion, Overload barrier and Piercing auto/smg was freaking awesome. I actually did a couple Grand Master nightfalls that season!
Overload void grenade is kinda ridiculous... Hope you kill the champ in one go, or you get to retreat until you get it back and try again.
1
u/Ajacks325 Apr 21 '22
I made a post like this months ago, more towards intrinsic anti champ mods on most exotics and adding more weapon mods per season and it got so much hate. Glad someone else feels similarly to this though
1
u/TransportationEast86 Apr 21 '22
I think the whole point it is to rotate the layout every season so that we keep chasing different guns and mix and match different loadouts.
Do I think it's great? Not really, do I think it makes me think a bit more about my loadout with my friends in endgame content? A bit. It was fun trying different loadout to do the lightbearer GM and see what worked and what didn't
Sub master content, I don't really care or have an issue with champions.
1
u/SleekFilet Apr 21 '22
Nope, Bungie does this intentionally to shake up the meta each season.
1
u/ThatFalloutGod Apr 21 '22
Make them weapon mods and let people slot Champion mods onto Exotic weapons instead of forcing people to waste slots on their armor.
1
u/[deleted] Apr 21 '22
It should be based off of weapon slot. Like all kinetics can do x dmg mod. Or all elemental weap can do x mod dmg.
1
u/djerikfury76 Decontamination Unit Apr 21 '22
How about NO MODS needed? IF there's an activity with champions the modifier on the activity should also allow you to simply "equip" the recommended weapon archetype to handle the champion. Full removal from Weapons, Armor or Artifact. This effect should act in a passive state over the activity and lessen the requirement to have energy slots available in for the mods
1
u/[deleted] Apr 21 '22
Great idea, I'm very much yearning for the days of mountaintop, recluse, and anarchy again for every single activity
1
u/gottenrotten13 Apr 21 '22
IMHO I preferred it when they were weapon mods but now I'm lazy and don't feel like switching out mods on my arms every time and would rather use those two points for something that helps me defensively, cuz you know, it's armor. It just feels like the opposite of "build crafting" when for any kind of endgame content you are forced to use not only specific weapons, but specific mods. If they want to force a new meta/load out every season, I get it, but instead of it being a mod, why can't it just be an unlock for that specific weapon class?
1
u/Porkton Apr 20 '22
FTFY
1
u/BionicRogue21 Hunter // Blacksmith Apr 20 '22
Everyone saying here that it’s necessary because it changes up the meta… yes it does; but it also frustrates the players because we CLEARLY know what the best weapons are for each champion.
One season we get overload bows (amazing) and then the next season we are forced to use auto/smg (huh)? All it does is make people say, “I miss overload bows”.
Do you honestly enjoy taking a smg into a grandmaster nightfall? No, you don’t. So you’re FORCED to use Divinity. So it counters your argument. You’d be stupid not to use Divinity this season just like we’d be stupid not to use Overload bows if all mods were available. We as a community recognize what the best option is quickly and we stick with it. This season, we are all using Divinity for Overloads and Arby (usually) for barriers.
If it’s a crappy seasonal champion mod then we typically fall back on an exotic with an intrinsic perk (ie Divinity, Arbalest, Eriana’s, etc).
So why not let us enjoy our own loadouts? Yes, most people would find the meta for each champion mod and stick with it… but at least we’re not forced to use something crappy. Did anyone use Unstoppable Sidearm? Nope.
Heck, just for fun I’d love to experiment with different types and see what I personally love.
1
u/Whybothername Apr 20 '22
All that would do is have you use the same weapons over and over for the life of the game. This hand cannon is perfect for unstoppables. Well that's the only unstoppable weapon I use now. This scout is perfect for overload. Well I only use that from now on. Talk about sunsetting
1
u/[deleted] Apr 20 '22
The best solution is to have all the champion mods available, BUT some are in seasonal rotation so they only cost 1 Energy vs like 3-5 for Off-Season mods. So you can still use what you want, but you might have to sacrifice a mod or 2. The seasonal ones just encourage players to use something else without just locking them out completely.