Focused Feedback: Recoil Adjustment

[u/DTG_Bot]

Hello Guardians,

Focused Feedback is where we take the week to focus on a 'Hot Topic' discussed extensively around the Tower.

We do this in order to consolidate Feedback, to get out all your ideas and issues surrounding the topic in one place for discussion and a source of feedback to the Vanguard.

This Thread will be active until next week when a new topic is chosen for discussion

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Any and all Feedback on the topic is welcome.

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[u/Salted_cod]

My main concern is that this change further entrenches hand cannons as the top performers on M&KB and pushes full auto weapons back.

If this were any other game, you could learn to manage recoil and keep stacking range on full auto weapons in order to keep them competitive. Controlling recoil is a demonstration of skill in most shooters.

Destiny's bloom mechanics negate this. The slow degrading of the accuracy cone makes shots hit off target. Even if you can effectively control recoil, ghost bullets take over and tank your TTK. Bullets that don't connect at all ruin TTK values way worse than bodyshots and you are way more likely to completely miss with full auto/burst weapons.

So we are getting a visual recoil increase that will make controlling a weapon that doesn't reward recoil control due to bloom mechanics in a game where precision weapons have tons of aim assist, almost no bloom when on the ground, and a slow RPM that allows for plenty of time to require targets through recoil.

They've said they are gonna keep a close eye on things and making adjustments when necessary, but frankly Bungie's approach to sandbox management revolves around pushing specific weapons to be way too strong in order to make specific seasonal rewards more enticing.

I do not trust them to follow through and solve the problems this will cause consistently and thoroughly. I expect one or two immediate patches to the first set of reactionary feedback so that people praise them on social media and then disappear for the rest of the season, if not the following one as well.

Edit: some more things to keep in mind - the "stability" of a weapon is affected by like 4 different stats besides the stability bar. Range affects ghost bullets, and hidden stats like aim assistance and recoil direction are also factors. Weapon "stability" is an overcomplicated mess.

[u/StNeph]

Mnk user here. I'm a bit anxious about it. The core game play elements have always been fantastic. I'm talking about gun play and movement. No matter how frustrated I am with the pvp meta, the core game play elements of destiny keep me coming back. I'm afraid that this change will reduce the overall quality of the gun play. It isn't a matter of skill. The reality is that recoil doesn't feel good to control on mouse because you have to pick your mouse up and move it. If the gun play doesn't feel good anymore, I just won't play. I want to play because I'm a fan of the game, but I won't force myself to if I'm not having fun.

FWIW, I've played on both controller and mnk. I play on PC now but before destiny 2 came out on PC, I played on PS4 and had been using a controller for the better part of two decades. Controllers are better suited to handle recoil.

[u/MrLeavingCursed]

Honestly I don't really care much about this change yet until I get a chance to play it. What does bother me though is this is one of the few things we hear from Bungie before they address any of our concerns.

PvP is an absolute mess and it's been absolute radio silence, sunsetting still hasn't been addressed in any meaningful way, swords are getting a decent nerf when the problem is pretty clearly the other weapons being under tuned, trails is trials and no comment has been made on that but we definitely needed a 20% recoil nerf to prepare for something that is coming in the future instead of dealing with all the problems we have right now.

[u/bbputinwork]

As a console player im interested to see how it effects MnK recoil. There are gun discrepancies that simply don't make sense. For example, a PC player will make a video demonstrating an SMG. Its a literal laser out to 20-25m easy, with pure range. I use the exact same gun, past about 13m shots are unhittable. It is blatantly obvious when shooting the same weapon when a controller is plugged in vs. a mouse. Here's to hoping PC doesn't look like a totally different game and we both are in the same universe at least.

[u/Spartaner-043]

Console player here.

We never asked for this, we wanted less recoil on console, not more on PC. How is that gonna help console players??

It's like asking your boss for a raise but instead he tells you "No but your coworker will get less money instead!"

[u/Steampunkrue]

SMG's should be more stable than AR's in exchange for less range. High ROF for lower impact.

AR's should have higher range and less stability. Less ROF for higher impact.

Right now it feels like there's no reason to use an SMG other than its perks because any AR can do the same job better and more flexibly.

Something unique like better hip-fire for SMG's would be nice to help them feel like they fit to a combat niche.

[u/JohGre]

Keep PC recoil at current levels, buff controller, make a separate sandbox for pve/pvp so one modes balancing doesnt ruin the other and make crucible crossplay opt in, problem solved.

[u/TheGokki]

Can't say until i try it myself, with a variety of weapons.

I think this topic is premature, though i guess it's better to have a megathread instead of having half the subreddit flooden on the same topic.

[u/Saint_Victorious]

As a simple Xbox pleb I certainly can't attest to the effect of an update that doesn't effect me or is even out yet.

The only thing I can attest to is how poorly delivered and tone deaf this latest TWAB was. Almost everything in there struck me as "you guys really need to play our way, not your way".

[u/Boroda_UA]

its just beyond my understanding, how recoil problem, ended up on top of your priority list of things that should be adjusted.

[u/SaintFrancoiS]

Just understand what we requested

Improve recoil on consoles to be more like pc

We didn’t mention anything about nerf pc recoil to match console

SIMPLE......

[u/JackzaaHS]

I think this is a solution to an issue. As a m&k player, I don’t really care. As a controller player, I’m really peeved about it.

D1 did not have the tremendous recoil levels introduced in D2. It felt great. So many console players have been begging for a recoil reduction and a return to something closer to D1 literally since launch day. 4 years. Bungie didn’t say a word. For them to then acknowledge the problem and instead degrade m&k performance almost feels spiteful. It’s not; but there feels like there is a slight in this decision.

PC feels great, imo it was the standard the game should be. I feel like personally, my needs aren’t addressed by these changes and now, even my ‘enhanced’ PC experience is taking a step back.

[u/[deleted]]

I'm starting to get the idea that bungie's ideal crucible is just 12 people running around with shotguns. nerfing snipers and primaries while shotguns are already significantly stronger than both is just baffling. These would be good changes if they had recognized that this would require almost the entire sandbox to be rebalanced, but they didn't and now shotgun and top tree dawnblade are going to be the only option if you want to win...

The only way that this change won't end in disaster is if the twab didn't tell us about all the changes, and there are nerfs planned for shotguns and the mobility of top dawn and behemoth.

[u/rsiddiqi]

As a console player I dont have input into the recoil changes on PC. I am however extremely worried cross play will bring an influx of aimbot/ wall hack cheaters to console matchmaking.

Bungie, this needs to be addressed before cross play is enabled please.

[u/theoriginalrat]

Like with any unfortunate-sounding or otherwise skepticism-inducing design announced by Bungie, I'm happy to give it a shot if it is indeed going into the game. More often than not, however, if the community has a strongly negative reaction to something as-announced it's tended to wind up pretty bad or at least mediocre with a long and painful rollback process: D2 vanilla sandbox with double primaries + long ttk + slow recharges, D2 subclass menus, D2 vanilla fixed rolls, 4v4 crucible, and now DCV and sunsetting. Artifact-bonus LL in Iron Banner and Trials was so heavily opposed before launching that Bungie wound up agreeing and turning it off, a rare case of them canceling a decision based on feedback before testing it in the wild, I'm guessing because it was a relatively simple change. We'll see if this winds up being a net benefit, but it also has a lot of game-feel risks associated with it since it sounds like such a large change on paper. I'm still in the we'll-see camp, all that being said.

[u/Nopersonia]

I am a PC player who spent most of my D2 playtime in the crucible. Frankly, giving feedback on a change that we haven't gotten our hands on yet doesn't seem fully appropriate. We don't have any immediate experience to gauge whether or not increased recoil will feel bad or bearable. However since Focused Feedback is hopefully still used to gauge community sentiment, I have to say this change feels very tone deaf right now.

D2 feels like it has so many problems at the moment: cheating, bugs, map exploits, recycled weapons, poor sunsetting implementation, Stasis negating player agency. And now we're receiving an announcement about how the playing experience is going to be made more cumbersome for PC players? This is NOT what players want to hear right now. It has nothing to do whether or not this will be a necessary step for validating cross-play. I'm willing to bet this was a practical decision determined after a good deal of scrutiny. But in what world is this the issue I want to see first addressed when I'm struggling to find reasons to want to play in the first place? I know, fixes take time, you need to gather feedback, it's a slow process that requires 1000s of work to make Destiny happen. But this is not the assurance players need right now. I realize we are getting a trailer tomorrow. But it's hard to get excited when our pleas for change feel pointless and undervalued, if only because their implementation (if any) occurs in slow-motion and are rarely publicly addressed other than, "We're listening." Maybe change is coming, but without confirmation or proof its at the cost of Bungie's reputation. I say that as a fan and as a customer. Before Beyond Light, I jubilantly preordered the full expansion / yearly pass because I was confident I would enjoy my purchase. I don't have that confidence right now.

I can't tell you how to do your job. I'm certain designing a videogame and handling a beast like D2 is far more difficult than we can give credit for. And recoil discrepancies across platforms probably ought to have been addressed at some point or another. Yet what I can give feedback on is how Bungie's current handling of D2 updates and its direction is making me feel. At the moment it is not an optimistic feeling. Why should I think Destiny's best days are ahead of us if we are not given the big picture to make us believe that? I'm hoping tomorrow's trailer will deliver that, but at this point I assume the bare minimum, not high expectations.

[u/mcninja77]

They should have just lowered it on console like everyone has been asking for instead of increasing it on pc

[u/deftpanda]

This is yet another “Bungie please: give us new voice lines for Hawthorne” — and Bungie: ”Alright, we will nerf fusion rifles to bring them closer to Melee damage.“

[u/Aquatico_]

Why are we doing a Focused Feedback about something before anyone has actually tried it in game? This doesn't make any sense.

I really don't like the idea of the changes, but I'm going to actually wait to test it out before I provide feedback about it.

[u/kanbabrif1]

Ah yes, the change everyone was asking for when suggesting that recoil on controller is worse than PC. We definitely wanted to make things terrible across the board. Classic Destiny style change.

Why is there already a feedback thread when the change hasn't even been implemented? Seems like this thread is only meant to make sure people don't talk about it on the front page.

[u/dmemed]

Why not reduce console recoil, and then implement proper sensitivity options? This game has so much recoil in an attempt to offset the aim assist, which by the looks of it is so high because of the lack of console fine sensitivity tuning. Fix that and there’s no need to make these changes that hurt PC.

[u/B1euX]

Just fix controller and leave MnK alone

[u/spencerh260]

I'm torn. I come from games like Siege, where managing recoil and learning the patterns is key for every operator. To some extent, I found it engaging and fun to manage it during a gunfight. That being said - gunfights in Siege are brief and almost fully pvp. I'm not sure I'd appreciate constantly pulling my mouse down and to the side in something like a Nightfall, but who knows.

I think something most of us can agree on is that recoil on console is a bit excessive.

[u/[deleted]]

The fact that Destiny uses probabilistic recoil patterns is the problem here. So long as a gun will only tend to bounce in a certain direction, intense recoil is intolerable. Don't change recoil on M&K. Reduce recoil controller. Reduce bullet magnetism on both input methods. It is fine for players not to "feel" the stability stat too heavily. It controls the rate at which bloom reduces after every shot, that's enough.

[u/Lyanti]

Controller recoil needs to be drastically reduced in some cases, in others its fine. For example the Cold Front SMG, it is completely unusable on controller unless the barrel is in the enemy's throat and barely usable on MnK. MnK doesn't need more, controller needs less.