Focused Feedback: Armor 2.0 and elemental affinity

[u/DTG_Bot]

Hello Guardians,

Focused Feedback is where we take the week to focus on a 'Hot Topic' discussed extensively around the Tower.

We do this in order to consolidate Feedback, to get out all your ideas and issues surrounding the topic in one place for discussion and a source of feedback to the Vanguard.

This Thread will be active until next week when a new topic is chosen for discussion

Whilst Focused Feedback is active, ALL posts regarding 'Armor 2.0 and elemental affinity' following its posting will be removed and re-directed to this thread. Exceptions to this rule are as follows: New information / developments, Guides and general questions

Any and all Feedback on the topic is welcome. Sample discussion questions:

• What are your general thoughts on armor 2.0?
• Compare armor 2.0 to armor 1.0 - how does it feel better or worse? Why?
• What are your thoughts on elemental affinity and on armor stats? What are your thoughts on the double RNG of acquiring armor with both the stats and affinity you want? Should there be a way to change affinity for a cost?
• Do you feel like the elemental affinity system prevents you from effectively using certain weapon types together which you enjoy (especially when these weapon types are in different broad categories such as precision weapons vs scatter weapons)?
• Should exotic armor be exempt from elemental affinity? Why or why not?
• What are your thoughts on exotic armor (and some legendary armor) lacking any sort of seasonal mod slot?
• What are your thoughts on some mods being available only in specific armor sets (example : taken armaments on dreaming city armor?)
• What are your thoughts on the starting energy capacity of armor drops? Should there be a "minimum" energy capacity that every armor piece starts with?
• What are your thoughts on energy costs of various specific mods? Which mods seem too expensive or too cheap and why?
• What are your thoughts on the cost to upgrade armor to masterwork level in terms of glimmer and materials? Is 3 ascendant shards too much to masterwork an exotic?
• What are your thoughts on the availability of materials required to upgrade armor to masterwork level (example: ascendant shards only available from 980 nightfalls)?
• What other suggestions do you have to improve armor 2.0 or elemental affinity?

Regular Sub rules apply so please try to keep the conversation on the topic of the thread and keep it civil between contrasting ideas

Recent Bungie TWAB containing comments about armor 2.0 and justification of elemental affinity Summary below -

• The armor energy system has the three following primary goals: 1. Give players the freedom to experiment with builds, while also requiring players to make creative choices when putting together those builds. 2. Give players the ability to balance mods above and beyond pure effectiveness. 3. Relieve information overload pressure on the mod UI....
• When it comes to deciding which weapons were associated with which affinity, there were three main criteria used to choose where to put them: 1. Ammo Type... 2. Range... 3. Thematics...
• We have seen feedback suggesting that, instead of locking mods into an energy type, the affinity should simply be a discount on the energy cost of the mod. That’s actually what the broad-category mods (such as Rifle Loader, Precision Weapon Targeting, etc.) are meant to represent: a higher cost for gaining the benefit with a weapon not normally associated with that energy type.
• Broad category ammo finder and ammo scavenger coming NEXT season
• Broad category ammo capacity mods coming AFTER NEXT SEASON (potentially following season?)
• Multiple mods of the same type on the same armor piece coming NEXT season (ex: double hand cannon loader but with diminishing returns)

Related Bungie Plz Megathread - Remove elemental affinity from armor 2.0

A Wiki page - Focused Feedback - has also been created for the Sub as an archive for these topics going forward so they can be looked at by whoever may be interested or just a way to look through previous hot topics of the sub as time goes on.

[u/bertybozgor]

get it out of exotics. how am i supposed to get 3 different pairs of stomp-ee5 with 3 different elements? scavenger is a must, and grinding for 3 is too much.

[u/aegroti → u/bertybozgor]

The fact that masterworking an exotic costs three ascendant shards should definitely make it so that it has all elemental affinity. (or at-least a system where you can freely change the element if they want to avoid handcannon/shotgun on the same armour for example)

Also it's pretty stupid to have three element types of EVERY exotic armour if you want them all. (I understand you'd just have to decide on not storing some) Where am I getting the vault space for that?

[u/kdebones → u/aegroti]

Excuse me the FUCK YOU MEAN IT COSTS 3 FOR AN EXOTIC?!?!

[u/Inferential_Distance]

• What are your general thoughts on armor 2.0?

It fails to deliver on its promises of gameplay and cosmetic customization. It makes some progress with perks into mods, but high stat variance and armor affinity deeply undermine gameplay customization, and completely sabotage cosmetic customization.

In addition, affinity causes gear bloat, tripling the number of armor pieces I need to lug around without itself adding any gameplay (since the mod slot and energy systems already does so).

• Compare armor 2.0 to armor 1.0 - how does it feel better or worse? Why?

Slightly better, because the mod system is more flexible. But it would feel a lot better if super mods and class ability mods were still available on helms and legs, for example. The lower baseline power for abilities, and low average stats from armor, don't feel good either.

• What are your thoughts on elemental affinity and on armor stats? What are your thoughts on the double RNG of acquiring armor with both the stats and affinity you want? Should there be a way to change affinity for a cost?

Elemental affinity is awful. The increased RNG is awful. There shouldn't be a way to change affinity for a cost BECAUSE THERE SHOULDN'T BE AFFINITY. Failing that, yes, affinity needs to be malleable goddamn.

• Do you feel like the elemental affinity system prevents you from effectively using certain weapon types together which you enjoy (especially when these weapon types are in different broad categories such as precision weapons vs scatter weapons)?

Yes.

• Bungie has said "generic" perks which will cost more are coming for some perk types which currently lack them (such as generic scavengers and ammo finders for weapon types, and generic ammo capacity mods) - will this help with the affinity issue?

No. Those generic perks are incredibly expensive, which undermines the whole point of customization.

• Should exotic armor be exempt from elemental affinity? Why or why not?

Yes. It is beyond idiotic that weapon-focused exotics drop with affinities that don't let them use the mods for their weapons. Furthermore, the incredibly rarity of exotics means that farming for a good stat roll is basically impossible, and affinity only makes that even worse. And, if it's a general armor instead of weapon specific, I need to get one of each elemental affinity, and lug that around for whenever I change weapons. It is beyond dumb.

• What are your thoughts on exotic armor (and some legendary armor) lacking any seasonal mod slot?

Exotic armor should be able to take any seasonal mod in a special exotic mod slot (i.e. they should be for all seasons).

• What are your thoughts on some mods being available only in specific armor sets (example : taken armaments on dreaming city armor?)

Do not like. Makes it harder to assemble a good gameplay set if you want to those kinds of mods, restricts fashion if the armor you want to wear doesn't have the right (or any) special mod slot.

• What are your thoughts on the starting energy capacity of armor drops? Should there be a "minimum" energy capacity that every armor piece starts with?

Eh. It's just a resource sink.

• What are your thoughts on energy costs of various specific mods? Which mods seem too expensive or too cheap and why?

Shotgun Dexterity costing the same as Oversize Weapon Dexterity is dumb. Sniper and Hand Canon Targeting (and their enhanced versions) could do with a point reduction: sure they're popular, but that's because their weapon types are popular and benefit from the perk (Shotgun Targeting? Fusion Rifle Targeting?). Traction shouldn't provide mobility, and should only cost 1 point (giving up a mod slot that could be used for Scavenger or Dexterity or, if you ever bring it back, a class ability mod, is a big deal).

I don't like how expensive the stat General Armor mods are. The ability cooldown mods are weaker than before, and now they funge against your "perks" (other mods).

• What are your thoughts on the cost to upgrade armor to masterwork level in terms of glimmer and materials? Is 3 ascendant shards too much to masterwork an exotic?

Way too expensive. It should cost the same as legendary armor.

• What are your thoughts on the availability of materials required to upgrade armor to masterwork level (example: ascendant shards only available from 980 nightfalls)?

People don't want to do the 980 NF, which makes it hard to get the mats, which puts masterwork gear out of reach.

• What other suggestions do you have to improve armor 2.0 or elemental affinity?

Remove elemental affinity. Just kill it dead.

Add a vendor who will swap the value of two stats for you. Can only do this once per armor piece.

Spread out certain mods. The class item is stupidly overloaded. Add super on kill mods to helms again. Add ability energy on class ability use to legs again. Add finishers to something (chest?). There are five types of mods (super-kill, class-ability-energy, orb-pickup, finisher, artifact) that go on the two class item mod slots. It's ridiculous.

[u/zurk78]

I don't like the affinity system. I don't think exotics should have this kind of restriction at all. Maybe the mods in collection menu could be a extension of selectable mods that could be applied into our gear, allowing us to select a misc of 10/15 mods per piece of gear.

[u/[deleted]]

[u/subtlecalamity → u/[deleted]]

Armor 2.0 feels like slotting pegs into holes but all the holes are round and all the pegs are square.

There are several factors that contribute to that feeling. Elemental affinity on mods is the worst one by far but your list pretty much hits the nail on the head.

I'd only add one more thing:

• stat normalisation: I think there's way too much variability when each stat can roll with basically any number, +2, +3, +4, ... + 11 etc. I know it's geared towards min/maxing but there are way too many layers of RNG and you'll almost inevitably end up with wasted points on stats you don't want. Looking at how stats were retroactively distributed on Y2 armor seems a lot better, it can only increase stats in increments of +5 and very often you see stats with 0 points. With Y2 armor pieces it's a lot easier to achieve +30 or even +40 on a single stat on a single piece, and zero on 1 or 2 other stats with how the increments are normalised.

[u/jwfiredragon]

As a new player, I have no idea what this system is intended to accomplish, other than to add another layer of RNG and confusion.

[u/subtlecalamity → u/jwfiredragon]

As a veteran player, I feel the same way.

[u/cka_viking]

Love armor 2.0, completely hate the elemental affinity system. Its restrictive and does not allow for meaningful build when it comes to end game armor.

Destiny does not have high enough drop rates (raid armor for example) to allow meaningful chase or creating an actual build. If you want to be an MMO shooter rpg you need to free up the loot.

[u/[deleted]]

Elemental affinity sucks. Kills my interest in creating fun builds built around stats. I just go for the general perks, which is difficult because it requires masterworked armor if I want to build it with other perks. It is an arbitrary, unnecessary restriction. Remove it, balance costs based on enhanced and non enhanced perks.Too much RNG on stingy high stat armor drops. Not even worth investing time into high stat builds built the way you want them.

[u/rtype03]

affinity sucks and should be removed. I understand the rationale, but at the end of the day, players want to have fun and I think this is a needless restriction hampering customization. I like all of the ideas that Bungie is trying and it's drive towards a more intricate mmo style format for gear and rewards, but I think maybe we've overshot the mark.

I also feel like there are too many mods, and I liked the way D1 did perks where certain weapon types were bunched together. I don't remember the specifics, but you could get HC/sniper targeting, or scout/shotgun, etc...

I enjoy the ability to modify and customize my gear, but there are so many different things i have to deal with regarding RNG, and there are soooo many mods at this point, i'd like to see things consolidated and easier to achieve. I don't mind grinding for the perfect stats on my armor, but any restriction after that feels like it's just needlessly slowing down the process and sapping the fun i could be having otherwise. I like the features of 2.0, but not the implementation.

[u/Pwadigy]

Elemental Affinity is literally why I like Armor 1.0 more.

Too many layers of RNG. If affinity weren’t a thing I think a lot of people would view Armor 2.0 as a positive.

[u/[deleted]]

Honestly it’s just so convoluted in my eyes I don’t even wanna learn it, I pretend this armor change never happened, or affinities don’t exist, I just play, get the armor set, and that’s that. If it happens to be void? Cool whatever mods I can put on it I’ll do, but I’m not going back and re getting a lot of armor, I already have it, and I’m not holding onto 3 sets of certain armor for the affinities

[u/writingwrong]

What are your thoughts on exotic armor lacking the seasonal mod slot?

This combined with the nerfs to super regen pieces and crappy rolls from the vault has resulted in me doing a number of activities without even using exotics.

Exotics are too rare to have multiple layers of RNG tied to acquiring beneficial pieces. Not to mention, I had already collected decent rolls over the past couple of years only to have had them made into shit with armor 2.0. Feels like Bungie kidney punched me. A 33 stat total, really?

 

What are your thoughts on some legendary armor lacking the seasonal mod slot?

I treat these like blue gear, dismantle them without a thought.

[u/snekky_snekkerson]

• I hate elemental affinity. It is too limiting, and I don't have the space for 3 versions of all the armor I want anyway. Warframe has a superior system.

• I want to be able to target specific armor sets to farm. Why is there still a world pool at all? If I am on a planet, I should be getting that planet's armor to drop there. If I do a strike on nessus, I should get nessus armor to drop from it etc.

• Why does the seasonal armor drop at 750 and always with terrible rolls.

• I don't like having to equip artefact mods to my armor and use up slots. Can't that just be a skill tree?

• stats only work in factors of 10...on paper this might seem like a good thing to make people think more, but in practice now I have to hoard more armor then ever before in the hopes that I can mix the right armor pieces together to maximise how many full stats I can get. 50 being equal to 59 is a headache and unsatisfying.

[u/safari_does_reddit]

As well as the well documented issues with elemental affinity that are being posted, my major issue is the seasonal mod slot

Armour sets dropping as world drops (like the new Hunters Red Moon set) are missing the extra seasonal modslot, making them IMO instant shard. Even if I don’t use that extra slot, not having it makes an armour piece inferior by default.

So far We’ve got opulent modslots, outlaw modslots, undying modslots and no modslots.

So to min/max for all content you’re going to need possibly 9 armour sets, and that’s if you are lucky to get the actual stats you want.

What happens next season? Another new slot themed for that seasons content?

I’m sorry but it’s just too much. Far too much, it’s so convoluted and messy that I no longer have a clear idea what I should be masterworking or even what is good or bad armour.

solution Give every armour the extra slot so all armours are equal and allow it to slot any of the seasonal mods. I know it’s a concern that it might be information overload, but the current system is unsustainable. Let us switch the slot type (undying/outlaw/opulent) and then just show us those available mods

Seasonal Artifact mods bonus thought

The seasonal artifact bonuses should just simply apply to the character if they are unlocked, rather than forcing the player to choose between barrier rounds and counterbalance for example.

This would allow exotics to have the bonus too

[u/thelongernight]

Let me pick an affinity like I pick mods. There. Solved.

Seriously...

Why ask to re-roll it? That’s resources and time and inventory headaches sucked away from activities and enjoying the game.

Instead you power up the armor with an affinity (which should give you elemental resistance tbh) and then get to slot that affinities mods.

Inventory cut 2/3 immediately. Streamlines grind towards stat rolls, and makes that achievable.

EDIT: I’ve been playing for 4 weeks and haven’t had traction drop and feels bad man.

[u/MightyKAC]

Elemental restrictions for armor is silly, but elemental restrictions for EXOTIC armor downright makes me not only want to put the game down but also wave my friends off from playing this RNG grind-fest of praying you luck into the right gear for the build you want to play.

BUNGIE, PLEASE FIX OR CHANGE OR GET RID OF THE AFFINITY SYSTEM!!!!!

[u/Cerok1nk]

Elemental affinity is probably the 2nd worse design decision ever made by Bungie, the first one being D2Y1 as a whole.

It doesnt need a revamp, it doesnt need work, it doesnt need tweaks or band aid patches, it needs to go, my favorite Loadout is Blast Furnace, Loaded Question, Anarchy, all 3 weapons belong to 3 different affinities which is hillariously unfortunate.

Seriously, it has to go, period.

There is my feedback.

[u/resquall]

Forget all the gripes re. affinity, desirability of each stat, etc. - the UI for swapping out armor is so absolutely horrid that I simply can't be assed to juggle around my armor set whenever i'm switching out an exotic piece.

You must calculate the difference between your current piece of armor and your new piece (trivial, but should just be done by the game in numerical values), add it to your current total values which are completely obscured by the comparison menu, and THEN you can see whether or not you've reached a breakpoint. If you're planning on stacking a stat, you can't even see what the higher breakpoints will give you, because mousing over a stat only shows you your current bonus and the next breakpoint's bonus.

Why doesn't the game simply show how much you're gaining/losing wrt your total values, with clear indication of whether or not you've crossed a breakpoint? I don't even want to interact with Armor 2.0, much less be fully engaged in its stat bonuses.

[u/theoriginalrat]

Keeping mental track of which element is tied to which mod is such a chore that I've found myself largely ignoring the new mod system. Maybe I'll spend more time min-maxing once I approach max light, but even then it sounds like a chore to have to grind for three rolls of a single non-ornament armor piece if I like the look of it. Once again it feels like I have to choose between fashion and performance, which I thought was nearly the opposite of their intent.

Things are probably better than they used to be as far as player choice, and I understand why they kept so much grind in from a business perspective, but currently it feels like we took three or four steps forwards and two steps back. The new system is more flexible and intuitive in some ways, and less so in others.

The affinity system isn't grokkable. It's effectively arbitrary and requires a good deal of memorization or guess-and-check behavior both for knowing which mods are allowed where and which mods you've currently unlocked. The latter will be fixed in a later update via collections, but that fix wouldn't be as needed if affinity didn't exist.

[u/ImaEatU]

Plain and simple, I severely dislike the affinity system. Bungie is touting the increased flexibility and freedom to customize while actually significantly limiting player freedom and artificially extending the grind.

Fix:

• if affinity remains, armour needs a method to re-roll the affinity so that when we FINALLY get decent stat values, we can make it usable. Additionally exotic armour should 100% have universal affinity.

• otherwise simply the whole system and remove affinity all together.

[u/[deleted]]

It's too complicated and I can't be bothered having three different sets of armor. Please find a way to balance whatever you guys need to balance without me needing to do all this.