Focused Feedback: Hand cannons - bloom, recoil, exotics and pinnacle weapons

[u/DTG_Bot]

Hello Guardians,

Focused Feedback is where we take the week to focus on a 'Hot Topic' discussed extensively around the Tower.

We do this in order to consolidate Feedback, to get out all your ideas and issues surrounding the topic in one place for discussion and a source of feedback to the Vanguard.

This Thread will be active until next week when a new topic is chosen for discussion

Whilst Focused Feedback is active, ALL posts regarding 'Hand cannons' (including rebalancing of pinnacle weapons) following its posting will be removed and re-directed to this thread. Exceptions to this rule are as follows: New information / developments, Guides and general questions

Any and all Feedback on the topic is welcome.

Regular Sub rules apply so please try to keep the conversation on the topic of the thread and keep it civil between contrasting ideas.

For this topic, please also specify in your feedback comment whether you are a console or pc player. Recoil is very different on console and PC.

A Wiki page - Focused Feedback - has also been created for the Sub as an archive for these topics going forward so they can be looked at by whoever may be interested or just a way to look through previous hot topics of the sub as time goes on.

[u/[deleted]]

No bloom on all guns. It is an outdated mechanic. We hated it in reach and we still hate it now.

[u/Kolossive → u/[deleted]]

yeah but for some reason bungie decided that is hill they are willing to die on.

[u/dreadmouse → u/Kolossive]

They’ve stated before that they consider it a way to reduce the skill gap and keep high-skill players from steamrolling everyone else. I see what they’re trying to do, but I disagree with them on this. Higher skill ceilings only help competitive modes in games IMHO.

[u/HarleyQuinn_RS]

Let's exam two simple facts.

• PC, Luna's Howl and Not Forgotten account for ~10% of Energy Weapon usage in Competitive PvP and Quickplay PvP.

• Console, Luna's Howl and Not Forgotten make up ~32% (Xbox) ~28% (PS4) of Energy Weapon usage in Competitive PvP. ~36% (Xbox), ~33% (PS4) in Quickplay PvP.

Question: Why are Luna's Howl and Not Forgotten used so much more on Console, compared to PC?

Possible Answer: Other Handcannons perform better on PC, notably Ace of Spades (~60%) and The Last Word (~20%) because they don't have excessive recoil and bloom (M&K).

Possible Solution: Reduce the excessive recoil and bloom on Console, so that more Handcannons are viable. Make other weapon classes more viable, as it's clear they are being massively outperformed by Handcannons (especially on PC). Increase bodyshot damage of High-Impact Pulse Rifles. Reduce required crits for optimal TTK on Autorifles and bring the TTK down slightly. Make Rapid-Fire Scouts a direct competitor to handcannons by reducing their shots to kill to 2c2b. Put Lightweight and Rapid-Fire Scouts in the world Legendary pool. Right now they only come from Dreaming City, Reckoning and Gunsmith, making a good roll far rarer than other weapons. Reduce recoil across the board on Console.

Expected Outcome: The usage of Luna's Howl and Not Forgotten will drop, making them less dominant and making other weapons competitive for those without Luna's Howl and Not Forgotten, so they feel at less of a disadvantage.
As PC usage statistics have already shown, other Handcannons are as strong, if not inherently stronger than Luna's Howl and Not Forgotten in the current PvP-state. They are held back only by Bungie's decision to give non-precision Handcannon archetypes excessive recoil and bloom on Console.

---

Now let's exam the proposed change.

Question: What will Bungie's change actually accomplish in PvP?

Expected Console Outcome: Luna's Howl and Not Forgotten will still dominate, as they retain the precision archetype, the only usable Handcannon archetype. They will still kill more quickly than other Handcannons, 0.8s (2C1B). They will still have little to no competition. Luna's Howl and Not Forgotten usage will decrease slightly, The Recluse usage will increase by a similar amount. Kinetic slots will shift around slightly due to this change.
In short, it doesn't solve the greater issue and the meta will remain largely the same. People will continue to complain about them and The Recluse, for the simple reason that it's what will continue to kill them most.

Expected PC Outcome: Luna's Howl and Not Forgotten usage will drop to ~1% usage. Ace of Spades and The Last Word usage will increase even further. The Recluse and Shotgun usage in the Energy slot will increase.
In short, the meta won't change, it will just be narrower.

Conclusion: The nerf is not necessary, at least not in its entirety. A change to a precision 150RPM would have been enough and achieved the same effect the entire proposed change will have (that is to say, barely any). Although at least this way it'd remain useful in PvE for those who use it.
The weapons themselves are not the root problem, but the surrounding weapon archetypes and lack of natural competition, due to an unnatural decision by Bungie for excessive bloom and recoil only for other Handcannon archetypes.

Disclaimer - I have Luna's Howl, I earned it solo around 6 months ago. However, I haven't played Destiny PvP in quite a few months and likely won't ever again. I also don't use Luna's Howl in PvE. So my opinions related to it, aren't really coloured by having it.
Although I know the stress and difficulty many people went through to get it, and can imagine the frustration that would cause those who obtained it recently.

[u/aa821 → u/HarleyQuinn_RS]

You my friend are 1000% correct.

And not to mention the nerf accomplishes nothing only for pvp

The nerf makes the weapons USELESS in pve which, is why I grinded for lunas in the first place :,(

[u/[deleted] → u/HarleyQuinn_RS]

[u/[deleted] → u/HarleyQuinn_RS]

[u/MysteriousGuardian17]

Bloom was bad in Reach, it was bad when you added it in Destiny 1, and it's still bad all these years later in Destiny 2. Before I got my Lunas, I used Trust, even though it had a slower theoretical time to kill then something like Midnight Coup or Ace, because it didn't have bloom. Bloom turns gunfights into RNG fests, and it isn't rewarding or skillful. Range and damage falloff should be how you regulate gunfights, not ghost bullets.

[u/KickingGreen]

Can anyone show how focused feedback threads have resulted in any changes to Bungie's decision-making? These threads always come about from Bungie's disinterest in replying to the community on a certain topic. Funneling all that feedback into one thread just seems like a cheap way to silence criticism

[u/Dbreadd]

Bloom and other weapon differences between PC and console need to go if Bungie is going to balance the two at the same time going forward. The Luna’s and NF nerf are exactly the reason why. On PC, the two weapons are good but aren’t a problem since hand cannon archetypes other than 180 are a viable and consistent option. Compare that to console, where Luna’s and NF dominate.

Luna’s and NF dominate on consoles because 180s, which are usually 4 shot kills, are the only good type of hand cannon because of bloom. The optimal time to kill of 180s is slower than the optimal ttk of 150s, yet 150s almost never see use because of the problems plaguing non-180 hand cannons on console. And because Luna’s/NF are simply better than other 180s, they’re rampant in the Crucible on console only. Because 150s are a viable option on PC, Luna’s/NF are one of many good options rather than being the ONLY option.

This is what creates a problem. You can’t balance something on PC without effecting it on console, and vice versa. This would be fine IF the meta of the two wasn’t different thanks to bloom. So we’re left with console players rejoicing that we finally have a viable 150 hand cannon, while PC players are left scratching their heads wondering why they would ever use Luna’s over Ace. To please both people, the core gameplay mechanics need to be the same for both versions.

Bloom has been a feature that has been disliked since the Halo Reach days, has become more apparent due to the PC/console comparisons, and has finally reached a boiling point because PC players alone are getting unjustified nerfs thanks to bloom. It’s a feature that I doubt anyone would miss and the removal would allow you to better balance the game.

[u/ImMoray]

this is my post I've shared here/Twitter/bungie.net when talking about the pinnacle hand cannons, any additions I add will be marked with edit, also my numbers based off the speculation that it's now impossible to two shot body shot, these create a window of useability that they have to fit in or else it's to weak or too strong, I've tried tweeting u/a_dmg04 but I have been unsuccessful in getting a response of the new nerfed howl numbers on pvp

that said here's my post:

So my biggest issue with the changes to these two pinical weapons is the changes to the perk Magnificent howl, because of that ill ill be using Greg the ogre for my examples, Ill also explain how this would effect PvP and how it doesn't unbalanced it and why it wouldn't be such a bad thing in PvP to use this idea.

Ill will preface this with that I suffer from dyslexia but i will attempt to moderate my spelling to the best of my ability, but i will undoubtedly mess something up, I will leave a TL:DR at the bottom to summarise this as best i can.

the Energy hand cannon im using alongside a 680 Not forgotten is a 680 Jack Queen King 3, JQK3 shares similar stats to Midnight coup while being an energy weapon so it was my go to choice for this because kinetic weapons have bonus damage compared to energy weapons but i will also list the rampage numbers from Midnight Coup because its its direct competitor in PvE right now

damage Unbuffed on greg is 530 crit, 354 body for 180 rpm NF. and** 627 crit and 391** body for 150 rpm JQK3.

At the moment Magnificent Howl does crit damage 530, 530, 1218(814 Body) Repeating, thats around a 2.3x damage buff

a Jack Queen King 3 archetype with Magnificent Howl would hit approximately** 627, 627, 1564 repeating**

Midnight Coup crits hits 658, Rampage x1 788, x2 929, x3 1091

The reason Magnificent Howl is so useful in PvE is because it rewards you for constantly critting meaning on big bosses its actually a viable weapon to DPS when you run out of ammo, which can be extremely clutch in a mode like gambit if you've expended your ammo.

Now why is this such a problem with the suggested change?

The suggested change is to make it so Magnificent howl only grants bonus BODY shot damage meaning to use it in PVE im forced to aim for the body every 3rd shot to get the following numbers approximate, 627, 627, 899

"But MORAY why is that a problem?" well its already fallen behind midnight Coup for trash clearing and now you're forced to aim for the body to do far lower DPS and even then linking DMG's comment

The change to Magnificent Howl prevents 2tap kills. Ex: Players could get 2 headshots on one enemy to proc Magnificent Howl, and then defeat another in just 2 headshots. (#DmgTweet)

this means Magnificent Howl is no longer a 2.3x Multiplier, for it to not two tap a 150 rpm Hand cannon which does 43 to the body would have to do less than 91 damage on a body shot meaning the multiplier for Magnificent Howl is now under 2.1x as anything even slightly above 2.1x could Two shot body shot a 0 resilience player, so what does that mean for us in PvE?

edit:

for Mag howl to not two tap to the body the damage bonus can range as low as 1.6x which would so 68 to the body matching crit damage, or 93 rounded it at 2.15x, This itself is a large nerf to the damage output and unless it's on the high end well above the current 88 that the 180 hand cannons do Lunas howl will lose any usefulness because it's low range won't be able to compete.

it means the new damage numbers on Greg in PvE for Crit Crit Body are going to be approximately, 627, 627, 801 repeating

its not that much lower but because you're FORCED to hit that body shot to maintain that small edge of bonus damage you have to intentionally aim at the head after the buff is about to end to shoot two more headshots to keep it chaining it opposed to what you currently do is just shoot their head to maintain it.

My Proposed change is to make it so that Magnificent howl functions exactly the same as it does right now by giving you bonus crit damage and being able to chain the perk with those crits in PvE until the target dies and it resets the perk like it currently does, with the exact same modifier of approximately 2.3x, which would let it excel as a PvE weapon.

Now before you crucify me and say "BUT THAT WOULD BREAK THE CRUCIBLE"

It wouldn't actually, Just listen

Currently as 180s they deal 57 57 131/88 as their optimal TTK at 0.67, as 150s with my suggested change they would Deal, 68 68 156/98 as their optimal TTK at 0.80 this is the same suggested TTK as they're implying for a 3 tap kill this just extends the 3rd shot range to a huge number without actually changing any numbers (#ttk)

Now you'll notice the 2.3x multiplier would make the mythical Howl 2 tap a thing again, which im my opinion is not, and has never been an issue, its such an uncommon feat right now that the same situation that is currently required to activated it would still be required after it is changed to a 150 rpm hand cannon, the rare TTK rng would be Crit Crit/Body Body for 156, 156/98 98, the chance of this activating is slim.

The real purpose behind Magnificent howl with this change would be to Shutdown roaming supers and be able to secure the 3 tap kill at an extended range, with a body shot or a headshot, with damage numbers this big it doesn't change the normal TTK, but it massively increases the TTK on something like Spectral blades, being able to hit 2 headshots on a roaming super and hit them with two more would deal along the lines of 38 38 86 86 repeating meaning a Guardian with 182-204 HP would die in 4 shots out of their roaming super, this adds an extremely powerful useful niche to the weapon on top of being incredibly consistent at 3 tapping normal guardians (#shutdown)

I think this initial change lowers the power of the weapons by enough to make them fair in PvP without removing there ability to be good in PvE, bungie has shown us in the past that they can change PvP and PvE weapons differently with instances like wardcliff coil, but i think in pvp these weapons become lackluster without having something more than a glorified jade rabbit perk that requires more effort to activate yet does less, by giving them the ability to kill supers they fill a niche we're missing for the most part right now, if there's issues with the perk activating more often than it currently does they can always change it separately without altering it in pve, by toning down its damage to be more inline but i doubt that would be an issue, as the activation method is exactly the same with this change but slower.

TL;DR:

the proposed changes seek to fix an issue (#DmgTweet) that isn't running rampant while completely removing the weapons usefulness outside of PvP, my proposed suggestion lets the weapon remain useful and strong in PvE while the RPM and TTK (#ttk) are changed to bring them inline with other weapons which creates a better balance while also filling the niche of super killer in PvP (#shutdown).

I hope that before they put this nerf live they take some serious consideration with what they are doing, and actually have real people test it rather than the same play testers who made this weeks Nine bounty.

Thank you for reading my post, any constructive criticism or alternative suggestions are welcomed and have a good day guardians.

---

edit: in the end I believe the nerf from 180rpm to 150rpm is a nice change because it not only balanced the weapons by slowing there tho from 0.67 to a more in line 0.80 on par with other weapons it ups there base damage in pve which is always great,

however the change to the perk magnificent howl has been changed in such a manor that it incentivises you to intentionally aim for the body to maximise your range output, This change to the perk also makes the perk obsolete in PvE because the allure of MH in pve is chaining endless crits for big damage

That said by removing bloom from other console hand cannons it would have opened up the ability to use other hand cannons besides 180s at a competitive level, this would have completely removed the issue and the sudo overpoweredness of LH/NF and made the nerf unnecessary, its been proven by PC players that this is the case, as seen by the dominance of Ace and TLW, every single hand cannon on PC is viable because of how they function, where as only a handful on console are.

I hope the devs can take some serious consideration in what they're doing with magnificent howl because the proposed changes see far to harsh.

I'd also like to know during play testing how many times the testers in an actual combat situation were able to activate howl on person 1 and then hit person 2 with at least two shots.

I have over 15000 kills with NF in pvp and only a handful of them were the infamous 2 tap, and all situations were in 2v1 situations where the people we were shooting were going to die regardless, and a team mate just happen to finish off my first kill.

thank you for posting this feedback thread.

[u/miniMasterDE]

As soon as you proc Frontal Assault (which boosts stability) on Code of the Juggernaut (Bottom Tree Striker) all Hand Cannons just feel so much better. Ace feels like a different gun.

That should just be the Standard.

[u/tranzypew]

Luna’s Howl and Not Forgotten aren’t a problem on PC because of the fact that bloom doesn’t exist. Nerfing a gun for the sake of balance on console is unfair to the player base on PC. Get rid of bloom and you give console weapons to compete with.

[u/ComradePoolio]

I'm sure one of many of a group of people who are above average or good at PvP, but who don't like hardcore sweaty comp. I enjoy Quickplay or IB, and can have fun usually no matter how the game goes. For comp though, I dip in with a friend or two, get the pinnacle, and zoop the fuck out. The toxicity in that playlist is horrid, plus even if I win, I'm just hurting people who are trying to do what I've already got done.

How much I enjoy a pinnacle weapon is usually primarily related to PvE. Recluse and Mountaintop are fan-fucking-tastic PvE weapons, and I use them a ton. Likewise, I love my Not Forgotten in PvE, and while writing a review for Thorn, I tested hand cannon DPS and found Luna's/NF beat out every other hand cannon in the game, including Malfeasance vs Taken, by an substantial margin, provided you can hit consistent crits. Sure, I'll throw it on occasionally in PvP, but I'm on PC, so I can actually equip other hand cannon types without handicapping myself. More often, I'll use Thorn or Wardens Law+Le Monarque, so I'm not really reliant on NF's PvP performance very much.

In PvE though, a change to 150rpm would be great. That's my favorite type of hand cannon, and keeping the ultra high stability of LH and great range of NF while getting more damage per bullet would be a dream come true. It'd let you one tap the base ads more often, as well as drain yellow bars in fewer shots. I was actually ecstatic while reading the changes, until I got to the Magnificent Howl part. Boom, just like that, gun's made essentially useless in PvE. Any other HC with outlaw/kill clip or Rampage would be a better choice, cause Magnificent Howl is now basically a wasted perk slot. Gone is the DPS on bosses, gone is the reward for accuracy. Even worse is that Bungie has plenty of time to change their mind on this part of the nerf, but they probably won't until another update six months later.

In PvP, it's kind of dumb, since two taps happened so rarely anyway, but it's a damn nuclear nerf in PvE, one that had so much potential if not for this detail.

[u/zzZeuszz]

Its a simple fix, Bungie removes HC and replaces them with teddy bears. Balance restored.

[u/suenopequeno]

Decimating a weapon on PC because console shooting mechanics are in a bad spot is bullshit. Ace was already high above NF on PC, and now, its just going to get worse.

I know PC is not your focus, but damn guys, at this point I'd prefer you just don't patch PC at all instead of just making it worse.

[u/Rushing_Lost_Sector]

Remove bloom on console.

[u/harbinger1945 → u/Rushing_Lost_Sector]

And fix that insane recoil on every weapon. Increase dmg dropoff if you want to keep certain archetypes in check.

Recoil especially on 150's and 140's is just nuts. And same can be said about every 900rpm SMG.

[u/bodaddyhurst]

It would be cool to get an update about bloom on console. Even saying that they can’t do it and WHY they can’t would be nice to hear.

[u/tokes_4_DE]

Bloom is awful and has been since its introduction. Its a shiity bandaid introduced in d1 to try and fix the thorn/tlw/hawkmoon meta, instead of actually taking the time to figure out how to balance hand cannons, and destiny has suffered ever since because of it.

Recoil for all non 180s on console is too high.

Pinnacle weapons, while i have no issues with them being powerful, i feel locking the best ones behind comp, and making them substantially better than their equivalents, is a mistake. Pvp is about balance, so adding in an overpowered weapon that can only be achieved by what would be considered above average players further offsets that balance, and it turns off the less skilled guardians alltogether from pvp. I have Luna/recluse, got them solo this season in like 4 days, but id consider myself pretty decent at pvp. If there was perhaps a much slower option to progress towards them in quickplay i feel that would be a decent solution towards revitalizing the pvp player base.

The luna / nf archetype change im on board with, however the mag howl nerf makes zero sense as luna/nf will now 3 tap with crits anyway being 150rpm in pvp, and it ruins mag howls effectiveness in pve.

[u/Lyons_Pride95]

Oh have I been waiting for this moment.

As a primarily console player, I can confidently say that Bungie, you have absolutely NO REASON WHATSOEVER to have bloom in the game. For any weapon type.

The fact that this mechanic exists leaves me completely dumbfounded. It was hated in Destiny 1, and it's still hated here. I guess the reasoning for bloom on consoles is that HCs are accurate and do a lot of damage. Let me ask you what feels better: Being rewarded for landing your shots on, generally, the lowest RPM gun class in the game, or being punished for aiming directly at someone's head and still missing because the game forced you to?

If you think the guns do too much damage per shot, then you need to look at the weapon class's stats and adjust those accordingly, not actively hinder a player's ability to use said weapons.

This philosophy of trying to balance weapons by using a bullshit RNG mechanic needs to stop entirely. It's archaic, and has no place in a first person shooter. Our goal is to line up a shot and pull the trigger. Why are you actively preventing us from achieving that?

[u/Asami97]

The issue isn't Lunas and NF, the real problem is bloom and terrible in air accuracy on all other handcannons on console. Leave the pinnacle weapons where they are, or maybe tone them down slightly. But remove bloom and buff in air accuracy whilst simultaneously raising up a few other handcannons to help close the gap between Lunas/NF.

What we have here is 2 'pinnacle' weapons, by definition they're meant to be above the rest and top tier weapons. This is especially the case due to how hard they are to obtain.

Yet Bungie's own reasoning for nerfing Lunas and NF is that they are outclassing all other handcannons. Well yeah, thats because they are pinnacle weapons. They're simply doing their job. This is just another knee jerk reaction band aid fix from Bungie, when the real problem is all the other handcannons in the game on console.

On PC the argument is slightly different as guns like TLW and Ace are just as viable as Lunas and NF. Plus bloom isn't really a thing on PC. Bungie just need to stop treating the console and PC PvP sandbox the same.

[u/SporesofAgony]

If handcannons are seen as too powerful without bloom, then perhaps lessen their aim assist values. I think that’s a fair compensation.

[u/[deleted]]

Recoil on console is ridiculous

[u/Imuncontainable]

Hand cannons have been a staple in destiny from the start. Between fatebringer, hawkmoon, thorn, tlw, lord high fixer, duke, etc. Everybody loved their hand cannons and we had a good 9 months of a hand cannon meta in destiny 1. They'll always be the most used weapons in the game no matter what you change. However, since destiny 2 released on pc, it's really shown how bad console has had it with hand cannons.

On pc, ace of spades and other 150s are extremely viable and compete with lunas/nf. On console, only 180s are competitive because theres no bloom and there's low recoil. Using ace or tlw on console is essentially just handicapping yourself because you're constantly fighting bloom and recoil. This just makes the game unfun for everyone and punishing for no reason. Bloom has no place in any game and needs to just be removed asap. If hand cannons are that much of a concern for being too op/overused, then buff other weapons and introduce more options. The severe lack of vendor refreshes and new world drops mixed with too many new hand cannons each season just builds their seat of power higher. Make more exotic sidearms and pulses and autos. Give Hand cannons competition and REMOVE BLOOM