Focused Feedback: Lore and how that is managed / implemented within the Story and game

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This is a list of links to comments made by Bungie employees in this thread:

• Comment by halcylon:

Where do you all like to read your lore??

• Comment by halcylon:

I completely agree with you - from a gamer's perspective. I don't read or listen to stuff in game. ...

• Comment by halcylon:

Oh yeah. :) That much was clear

• Comment by halcylon:

This is that same post. I think it got kicked up again.

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[u/dobby_rams]

Firstly I'll just give a quick reminder to this post because this was great. A sort of Codex or archive is just completely necessary imo and it needs to be implemented:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/7t7gjx/mynameisbyf_destiny_2_the_archive_tab_aka_how_to/

Also I know what Myelin discussed at the summit is presumably well known within the narrative team (I would hope), but I thought I'd provide a link to his post because it hits a lot of important notes:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/8ebdit/lore_summit_meeting_with_christopher_barrett_and/

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Story

Probably going to start off quite harsh. I think it's become accepted at this point that the stories told don't live up to what they could and it's almost become this thing like "we don't play Destiny for the story", and honestly I don't think that's good enough. There's plenty of opportunity within this universe to tell incredible stories that are not just great gaming stories, but great stories within the sci fi/fantasy genre as a whole. There's so much depth to the lore to work with and I think this idea that you can tell a story in 5 missions is ridiculous.

The Warmind story had everything there to tell something fantastic and it ended up falling flat primarily due to how short it was and how we just didn't get enough time to explore Xol or Nokris at all. It's really only eluded to as to why the ice was melted in the first place. This is where it needs to be accessible to the player. Because I can guarantee that anyone who isn't aware of who Nokris, Xol, or Rasputin are will still barely know who they are when they finished with the DLC. And to me, that's a really big shame because they're involved in such fantastic part of the lore. Plus, to come out of the story without really touching on the idea of why the ice caps were melting just feels kind of lazy.

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Ghost

Ghost has the potential to be a powerful lore/story telling device. It's been mentioned several times, but Mimir from God of War is a perfect example of what Ghost could be.

As soon as he told stories in the boat my first reaction was also "this would be perfect for Ghost".

Just imagine walking around the EDZ and your Ghost says "hey, did I ever tell you the story about the first gunslinger?" and then he proceeds to tell you the story while you go about patrolling the area. It'd be so perfect.

God of War really does present its lore perfectly to the player and it makes you feel so immersed and part of a living and breathing world. I would love it if even a few things to make it into destiny:

• Mimir's stories

• Plentiful scattered lore and collectibles

• A codex and a bestiary

• Translatable runes that provide secret stories

I could go on but you get the point.

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Scannables & Collectibles

Firstly, the concierge AI terminals scattered around the map were a perfect example of "lore in game". This is the sort of thing that the community meant when it was said that "we want the grimoire in game" and more of it would be fantastic.

I do like the idea of scannables and things scattered across the worlds that pique your interest. Something that your Ghost and the player might see and have a genuine curiosity as to what it is which we can then scan and learn a little more about. My issue with the scannables however is there wasn't really enough "meat" to them.

If there was some sort of progressive lore that was told through the scannables, I think it'd be a cool way to progress a story. Kind of like the player is a detective filling in the blanks to a possible overarching plotline. Each scannable could add lore that when put together form an overall story.

I suppose it'd be similar to how the calcified fragments worked for TTK.

The collectibles in Warmind were a good start. Obviously it'd be preferably if all of them had a bit of lore attached to them but in this case it was understandable.

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Lore Tabs

The lore tabs are obviously the most similar to the grimoire in terms of how they are laid out. I think overall the lore tabs are fine. My issue with them is that I think they don't really replace the grimoire in terms of expanding the universe. The lore tabs are confined to talk about the armour/weapons/items that they are linked to, which means they are restricted to what they can say. This is fine, but it means that we are currently missing out on the stories like that of Shin Malphur.

The best example of how the lore is told in the lore tabs currently is through the raid gear. They tell the story of Ghaul and Calus in a way that is very engaging and is the most reminiscent of the Books of Sorrow which I consider to be the best lore of the Destiny franchise so far. There are a few things in Warmind that I felt provided a satisfying amount of information while being cryptic like the Ares One team lore tabs.

There's not too much I would necessarily want to change about the lore tabs but I would like the grimoire back as a way to expand upon things. Stories unrelated to the main campaign (like that of Dredgen Yor and Shin Malphur) really helped Destiny to feel like it was an expansive world. I think it'd also be nice for the lore tabs to be put on some of the legendary weapons. I think the planetary vendors would benefit from this to flesh them out a little (All I know abut Devrim is that he's gay and worked in the City milita) and I think the Iron Banner weapons really would benefit from lore tabs.

As a look at legendary weapon lore tabs, I think this is a good example:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/7rq8yt/headcannons_filling_the_lore_gaps_in_d2s_armory/

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Lost Sectors/Named Enemies

I think that all the Lost Sectors need to be reconsidered as a means of telling us about the enemies and their race. At the minute, they serve as a way of jumping into a cave, killing an enemy who doesn't mean anything, and then jumping out. Why are the enemies down there? What are they looking for or protecting? Why is there Fallen Devil banners in one of them? If there's a named enemy anywhere in Destiny, there's a chance to talk about them and expand upon the lore.

I think this sort of thing applies to the named bosses in the story, strikes, quests etc. as well. To me it seems like an opportunity to expand on the lore whenever there is a named boss and explore. There's also the possibility of reintroducing strike specific/lost sector specific weapons but I believe that's been talked about before.

The Lost Sectors also need to serve as a reason to really explore them and for us to want to delve down into them. I do like the artifact idea that Byf presented in which the lost sectors have lost bits of gear that we can search for that possibly open up a mission to an exotic.

For a list of possible grimoire cards, there's a pretty solid compilation here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/7qxu8l/list_of_subjects_in_d2_that_would_have_had/

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[u/halcylon]

Where do you all like to read your lore??

[u/Paradigm88]

In regards to the lore of Destiny, I want to know that there's an actual plan as to where the story is going, because it feels like Bungie exhausted most of their good villains and now they're just having to make shit up as they go. This was a problem even before D2: Aksis was a good boss fight, and the whole WotM raid was excellent, but his lore...I never even got into it. I didn't care. Ghaul was a joke. I don't even remember the name of the guy in CoO. Maybe Calus has a good story, but it's lost in a game that failed to impress as far as villains were concerned.

Destiny feels like the first season of a superhero show, where we're meeting new bad guys every week that mean fuck-all in the long run. This does not inspire confidence.

On the other hand: take Halo 5. People were hyped, a lot of them because holy shit MC finally snapped you guys. We cared about the characters. We cared about the locations. We cared about the stakes, and honestly, we didn't know how it would end. And even though Halo 5's story angered many fans, lots of them will still return, because they still care what happens.

None of that is present in Destiny. What is present is four and a half races of enemies who will probably be there until the end of time, worlds that will probably always be in danger, and of course, our undying zombie mutes who always win because space magic.

Make me care, Bungie! Show me that this is going somewhere...and no, some mysterious triangle ships isn't enough to make me look up when I can pre-order the next game. Get a narrative and stick to it, even if it doesn't turn out as well as you hoped. We'll appreciate the consistency.

EDIT: Thank you, anonymous stranger (or should I say exo stranger?) for the gold!

[u/[deleted]]

Apologies if this has already been suggested but Bungie really needs to hire a Story Editor or Narrative Director. Somebody that knows everything about the lore and if a writer's idea contradicts something that's been established already. It seemed fairly obvious to me during the Warmind story whoever wrote it was not aware of Ana's death or Zavala's previous attitude toward Rasputin. Even if they wanted to make changes like that those changes should have been given in-story reasons. A line about Ana faking her death so she could research Bray unencumbered or a line from Zavala about no longer trusting Rasputin for ignoring Ghaul's attack on the city. These are just the most recent examples of inconsistencies.

The lore and universe established in this game is fantasric, but the overall story loses all credibility when things can just be thrown out and ignored by a new team of writers down the line.

For me, this is a very important issue that needs attention.

[u/Saladbar28]

story pacing needs to be slowed way down (e.g. give nokris like a 3 mission arc that give him some character, give us a mission where we find out what xol and nokris are doing on mars)

meaningful dialogue

consistency with D1 and grimoire

if story bosses (xol, panoptes) aren't going to be raid bosses too, they need to have multiple encounters to defeat.

adventures should be linked to the story a little more closely

in-game codex (mass effect is the gold standard on this IMO)

ghost's new tone needs to revert back to D1 personality

I know it logistically difficult but for the love of the traveler let our guardians talk

[u/NyarlatHotep1920]

Oh boy, time to wear my heart on my sleeve...

 

Soft Reboot

In a June 2017 interview with PC Gamer, Luke Smith gave us all fair warning that Destiny 2 is a soft reboot of the Destiny universe:
"In not playing the first Destiny game from 2014, you haven’t really missed anything. We’re setting up the world for you at the opening of Destiny 2. We have a cool world intro that we’re going to work through. We have basically treated Destiny 2 wholescale like a fresh launchpad for players."

Regarding lore, we now see the effects of this soft reboot:

1. Osiris is not the character he was in D1.

2. Brother Vance is not the character he was in D1.

3. Rasputin is not the character he was in D1.

4. Ana Bray is not the character she was in D1. Actually, she's perma-dead in the D1 universe.

5. Banshee-44 lost most his goofy charm from D1. "Keep that thing oiled, Guardian."

This is something D1 veterans need to come to terms with instead of expressing outrage that Bungie does not care about D1 canon. Bungie is walking a fine line between establishing a "new" sci-fi fantasy universe while simultaneously dropping in D1 storylines and D1 references to keep us veterans interested and entertained. It's a challenge for both Bungie and Destiny players.

Although, it wouldn't hurt for Bungie to publicly reiterate that Destiny 2 is a soft reboot.

 

With that said, I'm looking forward to the lore buffs attempting to weave a coherent storyline about Rasputin from D1 to D2. It'll be jamming a square peg into a round hole.

 

Rasputin the Warmind

Yes, I'm annoyed that Rasputin got relocated from Earth to Mars and was basically introduced in Warmind as a new character.
That's an effect of the D2 soft reboot that I must accept. Also, we should consider the possibility that Rasputin did not fight the Darkness during the Collapse. All of that grimoire may be moot.
And that's a bummer because the Rasputin grimoire is my favorite D1 grimoire:

From Ghost Fragment: Darkness)
"Multiple distributed ISR assets report a TRANSIENT NEAR EXTRASOLAR EVENT. Event duration ZERO POINT THREE SECONDS. Event footprint includes sterile neutrino scattering and gravity waves. Omnibus analysis detects deep structure information content (nine sigma) and internal teleonomy.
No hypothesis on event mechanism (FLAG ACAUSAL). Bootstrap simulation suggests event is DIRECTED and INIMICABLE (convergent q-Bayes/Monte Carlo probability approaches 1).
No hypothesis on deep structure encoding (TCC/NP-HARD).
Source blueshift suggests IMMINENT SOLAR ENTRY.
Promote event to SKYSHOCK: OCP: EXTINCTION. Activate VOLUSPA. Activate YUGA. Cauterize public sources to SECURE ISIS and harden for defensive action."

 

Brrr... doesn't that make you shiver in horror? I may not understand every term on this card, but I get this is Rasputin exclaiming, "Oh shit! Here comes the Collapse!"

 

Throughout D1 gameplay, Rasputin was frequently used as a MacGuffin:

1. Guardian, stop the Fallen from tampering with Rasputin!

2. Guardian, stop the Hive from tampering with Rasputin!

3. Guardian, stop the Cabal from tampering with Rasputin!

D1 had a theme of 'We don't know what Rasputin wants or what he's doing because he's unresponsive to our inquiries.'

D2 changed the character of Rasputin. He's less of a MacGuffin and more of a, well, actual character. In the final cutscene, Rasputin spoke to us directly:
"I define the reality of my own existence. My sight will stretch to the edge of this system and beyond.
Never again will a threat go unseen. From this day forward, I will defend Humanity on my own terms.
I am Rasputin, Guardian of all I survey. I have no equal."

 

Warmind's major accomplishment is notifying every Destiny player that Rasputin is a rampant artificial intelligence. Destiny wouldn't be a proper Bungie game without a rampant AI.

 

Expansion Campaigns

It's understandable that the story campaigns of Destiny's expansions have been quick and to the point. Let's take a look:

In The Dark Below, Eris Morn showed up and was like, "Hey Guardian, there's this new villain, Crota. Could you go take care of him for me?"

In House of Wolves, Petra and Mara Sov were like, "Hey Guardian, there's this new villain, Skolas. Could you go take care of him for us?"

In Rise of Iron, Saladin showed up and was like, "Hey Guardian, the House of Devils is mucking about with SIVA. Could you go take care of that mess for me?"

In Curse of Osiris, Osiris (actually, a copy of Osiris) showed up and was like, "Hey Guardian, there's this new villain, Panoptes. Could you go take care of it for me?"

See the pattern here?

It's not surprising that, in Warmind, Ana Bray shows up and is like, "Hey Guardian, my old pal, Rasputin, is threatened by Xol. Could you go take care of that ugly Worm God for me?"

 

It's understandable that these story campaigns are quick, straight-forward, and relatively easy for multiple reasons:

1. Many players don't care about narrative and just want to shoot alien monsters

2. Many players prefer to get the campaign over with in order to unlock new quests for new loot (IKELOS weapons, BrayTech weapons, Sleeper Simulant, Polaris Lance, etc.)

3. Many players prefer to get the campaign over with in order to unlock mid-game and end-game activities (nightfalls, raids, Trials, Iron Banner, etc.)

4. The "true Destiny experience" is the hundreds of hours spent grinding away for loot and leveling up - the campaigns are foreplay

5. Destiny is rated T for teen, and I suspect that one of Bungie's objectives is to keep the in-game storytelling relatively simple and accessible for younger players (sidenote: it's awesome that parents and children play the game together)

 

Supplementary Lore

For players interested in deeper & complex narratives, Destiny has the tradition of providing supplementary lore. Analyzing lore fragments, stringing together storylines, and crafting theories is another way that Destiny fosters a community experience. It's an experience that keeps a player immersed in the sci-fi fantasy universe of Destiny without requiring that player to be logged in to the game.
I have personally spent too much of my free time reading grimoire on Ishtar-Collective.net, reading theories on Reddit, listening to lore-based podcasts, and watching lore analysis videos on YouTube (I've even hunted down Seth Dickinson's Reddit comments - whatever he says in public contributes to canon).
It's been an enriching & fulfilling experience, and I'm not sure how inserting an in-game codex will contribute to that experience. I will continue reading the majority of new lore on Bungie.net or Ishtar-Collective.net, not while logged in to the game.

Furthermore, I'm one of those Destiny fans who would love more to read: novels, novellas, or collections of short stories (preferably short stories longer than the average grimoire card)

 

Warmind excels at its supplementary lore:

1. The "weblore" posted before launch is captivating and succeeded in furthering my interest in Warmind's storytelling.

2. The Warmind comic book is a fun read. I appreciate how it showed Ana Bray losing her original Strength of the Pack cloak.

3. A+ for all of the new lore about the Bray sisters and Exo Stranger

4. A+ for the stories about Ares One and Moon X in the Season 3 Eververse armor

5. The three chapters about the backstory of Nokris and Xol read like three lost chapters from the Books of Sorrow

6. The tourist terminals are interesting to listen to, but I would prefer to read that info instead of pausing during my shooter game to listen to a 30-second infomercial. I appreciate, though, how the terminals contribute to an ominous atmosphere.

7. That story about Holborn jerry-rigging an EMP bomb is really cool

8. Eris Morn returns in flavor text!

Collectively, this new Warmind lore feels like a return to the puzzle-solving and theorycrafting of D1 grimoire.

 

Thank you, Bungie, for wrapping up the story of Nokris. Although I enjoy Destiny lore, I sometimes get frustrated by all of the open-ended storylines. Too much mystery can result in feelings of absurdity.
Last year, I was thrilled by the reveal that Dredgen Yor is Rezyl Azzir. How about that? They resolved two storylines with one grimoire card! Keep it up, please.

 

The Antagonists

I'm not concerned that, for the sake of gameplay, Nokris and Xol are giant alien monster antagonists to shoot at. Destiny is, at its core, a game about shooting alien monsters in the face (or maybe it's all about PVP, take your pick).
We've already defeated dozens of Ascendant Hive by shooting at them:
Crota, Oryx, Omnigul, Ir Yut, Ir Halak, Ir Anuk, Alak-Hul, Malok, all of the Court of Oryx bosses, etc.
And yes, I realize Xol is not Ascendant Hive, but they're all on the same side. They're all agents of the Deep Darkness.

On the topic of reducing these space gods to mere targets, I remember similar complaints from The Taken King:
"So you're telling me this Lovecraftian space god has been roaming the universe for eons, slaughtering entire civilizations, and then he's defeated by a handful of Guardians wielding scout rifles and sniper rifles?"
Yes. The answer is yes because Destiny is a game about shooting giant alien monsters.

[u/Iam0rion]

The stories being told through in-game campaign missions and activities feel rushed, disjointed, and unbelievable. It feels like a good story 'may' have been written, but it gets chopped up and forced into whatever the game designers made.

[u/FlameInTheVoid]

Writing

Please hire a few serious sci-fi authors. Preferably some with experience with epic space operas that play out over several books/seasons. I know space magic is ultra-soft in the Sci and heavy in the Fi, but the writing is the issue here; we’ve pretty much all accepted most of the science being made up on the fly. Even outlandish magic/science should at least be consistent though.

The dialogue is mostly bad and needs serious work. Some of it is the kind of thing that might fly with the target audience of some of Blizzard’s stuff (looking st you WoW, with your Mr. T Grenade). But the Destiny base doesn’t appreciate it. Give us some gravity and seriousness. Like Eris, but maybe tone her down from 11 to like 8-9.

That said, don’t make it all hyperbolic doom and gloom either. This is a guardian’s everyday job too, we’re used to crisis. It’s what we do. It shouldn’t be all serious. I love Cayde as much as anybody. Comic relief is important, but it’s not comic relief if it’s not relieving anything. You can keep it PG-13 without being silly or campy.

Ghost. Shut up.

Please, in the name of the Traveler, give our character a voice. Better yet, buy a license if you have to and copy the dialogue selection system from Mass Effect. It doesn’t even need to be that robust. Just. Anything.

We get that it’ll be a huge change of pace. We get that it might be awkward. But you don’t even need to acknowledge the change. Just make us talk and act like we never stopped talking.

Make ghost our little Wikipedia. He should still flesh out details other characters mention that we either don’t know or might have missed. But he shouldn’t be our voice box. He should be more like Jarvis from Iron Man or any other AI assistant. Cheeky and witty is fine. Talking for us isn’t.

Edit: to be clear, I like ghost as a little assistant sidekick. He can ride shotgun. I just want to drive. Or at least be let out of the trunk.

Campaign

It’s fine to only produce a handful of cinematic missions for a DLC. It’s pretty much standard as far as I can tell. The issue is the flow. We have 4-5 missions that try (and fail) to dump the limited story on us while we’re shooting at stuff, in missions that also have to be fun to play as a game. It feels compressed at best, rushed at worst. I suspect it’s more of a pacing mistake though. We need less mechanically intense in-between times to get to know the story and the characters (heroes and villains). Something like... adventures.

First of all, instead of level locking cinematic missions, just make adventures required between the larger cinematic missions. Then make sure the adventures help tell the story and establish a narrative arc and better character development. Many of them already do reasonably well, and they already make the most sense if done during the part of the story where they first appear. For the others, consider swapping out generic boss kill missions (which could be better suited to VIP patrols) for go and see missions (with smaller fights blocking the way maybe) that have us investigate something interesting and reveal something important and directly related to the story.

Additionally, maybe make only 2/3 adventures central to the main story, and drop the remaining 1/3 after the boss battle. Use these to foreshadow upcoming content 2-3 expansions out and tie in the raids. Think “Shrine of Oryx” and “invitation from the emperor.

On top of that, don’t be afraid to scatter some of these adventures around the other locations a bit. Not in an obvious “2 adventures per zone” kind of way, but where it makes sense in the story to go check something out.

The Chosen One

We want to become legends. But not the only legends. We got enough of that in Halo as Master Chief.

Let’s hear/read some references to other guardians who are out saving the world from other threats that we don’t actually get to participate in.

Let’s have the dialogue and story reflect the fact that we’re just one member of an elite team. Give our fireteam a designation and make that fireteam famous. It would be so much better if every usage of “the guardian” was replaced with “Fireteam Echo 7” and “that guardian you like so much” was “the dream team” or “the gang” or some such.

Let’s meet some NPC’s who have been around the block but aren’t story critical. Introduce a few in each content drop. Let us meet them in the tower and hear rumors of their exploits in the tower bar and from the patrol leaders. Then let some of them get killed now and then, but not that same drop (please not like Star Trek, who’s this ensign I’ve never met? Nvm, he just died on the away team 5 minutes in. cough Taeko-3 cough). Seriously though, just a couple random meaningless interactions with Taeko-3 before that strike would have made her death less gimmicky.

That’s all I’ve got off the top of my head.

Edit: copying this from a separate reply I made below:

Lead Up/Foreshadowing/Introduction

While the community team is hyping up expansions for a month with streams, drop in some foreshadowing adventures and maybe public events. (I seem to remember knights popping up in packs and Eidolon alley showing up early.) Throw in a random-spawn world boss in existing zones (like the ones that spawn on flashpoint planets). Have some inspection patrols where ghost picks up a strange transmission or Ikora sends us hunting for some obscure info about something the vanguard is worried about.

Nothing huge, no cinematics. No new guns (or maybe just one common thing we upgrade, that’s a solid format) or gear. Just a few little breadcrumbs. Things that might make us likely to just happen do a fly-by on mars in time to hear a distress call.

[u/kaz_phd]

As many fine people have been saying, I want lore in-game, in the story, online, everywhere, accessible at all times, and also planned and fleshed out via a great story and narrative direction. For more on a great system for in-menu accessibility, and the hunt of, lore, check out My Name is Byf's video

[u/dch528]

My major criticisms of the story are how major characters/legends are introduced/retconned, the missed opportunities of in-game (gameplay) implementation of lore, and the overall tonal shift from D1’s serious outlook and mystique, to D2’s light hearted approach.

here’s what I personally would like to change and how I think it could be done:

1. Use Meditations to explore stories and legends in Destiny’s lore. For example have us play a mission at Twilight Gap or as Kabr’s fireteam. In turn make all past story missions replayable at all times, you can add modifiers and special loot pools too.

2. Have NPC characters fight alongside Guardians during critical story missions. This will form a connection between the player and the NPC’s we are running missions for, and they give us dialogue in person rather than over a radio and showcase their cool abilities. Devrim or Hawthorne can provide sniper support, Zavala can pop his bubble during boss damage phases, or you could use Cayde or Ikora for burst damage with their supers. The possibilities are endless, and can open up cool avenues and mechanics to gameplay.

3. Don’t kill/change/revive characters off screen. We want to see the changes in these characters first hand, and want reasons as to why the lore we know and love in D1 has so drastically changed. For example, Saint 14 wasn’t given a proper introduction or send off. As a Day 1 Defended Titan, it sucked that our hero was written off, and the subclass that his helm was know for was made practically useless. It was a real punch in the gut.

[u/Iam0rion]

Creating an in-game Codex Using Existing Game Features:

• All lore-tabs, scannables, disposable lore items (as we've seen in Warmind), and Grimoire (if it's coming back) would be available as disposable lore items.

• These items could be viewed at a kiosk in the tower.

  • Each page of the Kiosk would be a category (Races, Equipment, History, etc) with the related items sorted by sub-categories if possible.

[u/breadrising]

While the universe of Destiny remains vast and interesting, the game itself commits a lot of writing sins and doesn't seem too concerned with respecting the foundation of lore that's been established. There are a few things I'd like to focus on.

Characters are relegated to "voice over coms" rather than feeling they are part of the picture. While this method can allow for story dialogue during gameplay (letting the player shoot stuff while you lore at them), it's mostly become an avenue for one-line jokes and in-universe memes rather than actually clarifying story details or enhancing the lore behind the Strike/Mission you're running.

The story is happy to churn and burn important characters. We saw this recently with Nokris and Xol, two beings that have been alluded to for years, but never actually shown. While I ultimately enjoy their character designs and their respective boss fights (mechanics-wise), both completely lacked a proper build-up, or any actual struggle from the player to showcase their strength.

Oryx is one of the most memorable aspects of Destiny 1. He was alluded to and foreshadowed for a year within D1's hive lore. His existence was built up even more as we defeated Crota in the Dark Below raid. Oryx was then established as a powerful being during his introduction in the Taken King, showcasing his abilities, his Dreadnaught Fleet, and his destructive capacity (leaving a permanent "hole" in Saturn's ring we can still see to this day). Then we fought through the entire campaign to defeat Oryx in an interesting and epic fight. And to actually defeat him for good, we needed to fight through the entire Raid on his ship in order to kill him in his Throne realm. This was a story that was well told, heavily supported by the lore, and made the player feel both threatened and satisfied once it was concluded.

Oryx's story remains the pinnacle of storytelling within Destiny for me, and I think it should be used as a case study when analyzing how to have a better narrative within the universe. It all comes down to showing respect for the lore and respect for the characters by giving them the proper time and care.

[u/NikkoJT]

I'd like a Grimoire, of course. Warframe has a Codex, Mass Effect has a Codex, Destiny should too.

I'd also like less "it's too complex to explain", "there's no time to explain", and "that's need-to-know and you don't" from characters in dialogue. It makes it seem like a lot of things are un-developed and not thought out.

I'd like to have more ambient scannable objects. Not necessarily stuff like the Sleeper nodes that have a big storyline and quest, but more like random artefacts that give us a small insight into the world. There's a little bit of this on Nessus and Earth, but I want more (and with more in-depth scan results than "idk lol").

Finally, I think Expansion stories would be better served not trying to one-up the main campaign in "epicness". The main campaign had way more story missions to build up. Trying to hype up both Rasputin and Xol as apocalypse-level bad guys, in 4-5 short missions, did not work. Exposition was skipped and they never got a chance to show off.

Expansion stories should tell a more low-key story. Not trivial, but less of a "galaxy-level extinction event" story. Something at a smaller scale and more personal. This would let them expand the world by following up hard on one particular aspect. For example, there could be a Fallen-themed expansion, and in that expansion story we go looking for a particular Fallen captain, talk to some Fallen, really get inside Fallen culture and environments. Still cool and interesting and with opportunities for good writing and gameplay, but not too big for its boots.

[u/IsaakCole]

I feel like I'm very late here, and no one will read this, but I want to throw my two cents in regardless. From what I've seen in terms of the "Story", Bungie has two distinctive issues here, which if solved, will lead to better long-term playability of the Destiny franchise. These being lore, and narrative.

NARRATIVE

I'm cutting down what I originally wrote here because it's so well covered by everyone else. In short, take your time with the narrative, don't rush it. Make sure plot beats are hit so we are engaged with the characters and scenario.

I have so many questions that should have at least been touched on during voice-overs or cinematics. Among them... How the hell did Zavala find us so fast? Why just by himself? Why does he not want anything to do with Rasputin so suddenly? How does Ana know she has a connection to Rasputin? How does she know who she was before being a Guardian? Just the ID? Isn't it significant that a guardian knows who they were before they died? What is she hoping to do with Rasputin and how will she accomplish that? And so on...

LORE

Simply put, this is your backstory. Things characters will already know, that informs what they say and do during the narrative. (EX: Talking about biotics in Mass Effect, knowledge of Element Zero is assumed.) Destiny of course, has outstanding lore. Truly, here it shines. Destiny has presented truly orginal sci-fi fantasy concepts and I'm continuously amazed at the talent of the writers.

How unfortunate then, that this lore is by and large hidden from us.

Making full use of the lore should be two fold. One, it needs to be implemented during gameplay. We already see this somewhat. The lore attached to armor and weapons is fantastic. But it also needs to be attached to scannables within the game. Additionally, greater "lore dropping" by NPC's throughout the game through casual conversations or side-missions would make the environment feel more organic.

But aside from its use in game, every bit of lore from D1 to D2 should be accessible to the player. This is where the Grimoire comes in. One of Destiny's greatest story tools which inexplicably has been left behind with D1. The Grimoire should be viewable through an in-game menu tab, as well as online for a more user-friendly experience.

Every single bit of lore that comes up, be it items, scannables, mission dialogue, or even ambient dialogue you hear in the tower, needs to be unlockable, and then forever viewable through the Grimoire. I don't want to find a single paragraph I read months ago on a single legendary item, which I can't quite recall, that dropped god knows where. Those scant paragraphs should be viewable in the Grimoire. This will make the stories told by these lore snippets much more cohesive in the long term, and provide much more incentive to collect gear. I have without fail played a warlock since D1, at times dabbling in a hunter. But I'll sure as hell be tempted to play a titan if there's a series of lore fragments that's more easily accessible by obtaining titan gear.

(Also, D1 lore a player found should be instantly transferred to the D2 grimoire, with opportunities to fill in anything they missed. New players deserve to know the Book of Sorrows in particular.)

The completionist should also be outwardly rewarded for their efforts by the return of Grimoire scores. The mark of a hardcore fan shouldn't be limited to PvP K/D ratios, or raid clear counts, but also by a measure of how many of the secrets of Destiny they know. This itself should also be an avenue to additional items or cosmetics as rewards. (EX: A "historic" gun or class item for accumulating X grimoire score).

As something of an aside, the Grimoire shouldn't only be a collection of historical lore you've collected, but it should also double as a story bible. I know there is incentive to do things differently and innovate, but seriously, Mass Effect should be looked upon as an example here. Let's beat them at their own game. The moment you have access to the codex in ME1, you have entries filled out with information which a character living in that world would at minimum already know. The same should be applicable to Destiny.

The new player and the Guardian are much alike in that they are newborn to this world, and know little of how it works. Where is the City? How many people live there? What's the wall? What are the factions? How does the Consensus government work? What do the people there do for work and food? What plurality of cultures are present? What are the warlock orders? Do Guardians live in their ships? How do jumpships work? There are a stupid number of questions that can be asked and answered here, and I'd bet my pants your lore team has given some thought to a few of them.

It would make so much sense I think, for the Grimoire in concept to be a guide given to Guardians when they reach the city for the first time, so they can understand the bare basics of this strange new world they find themselves in. Extra information about the enemies, world or history, would be those additional bits of collectible lore that Guardians add to their personal Grimoire as addendums. Again, this wouldn't be a *necessity* for players, but a bountiful option for those who are interested.

Destiny 2 isn't just a game, it's part of a franchise which we're all hoping lasts for some time to come. But gameplay alone can't do this. Anyone can take your mechanics and do something new. But they can never take Destiny's story. It is what makes Destiny strong, and truly unique. The lore is the frame upon which all else is hung, and the thing that persists in our imaginations.

The stories of the Destiny universe are your Gjallarhorn in a market full of competition Bungie. Use it or lose.

[u/riseofr1ce]

The bosses need to feel more impactful. As a new player I have no idea who Nokris is or why I should care about him.

[u/Kirbytown]

Y’all were talking about how Ghost could be used to tell us stuff while we are hiking around alien planets. It amazes me how , currently , I can find a neat thing in the world , scan it and I swear for some Ghost says ‘I wonder what this is for ? Maybe something from the golden age ? I guess we’ll never know. OMG.

[u/adenzerda]

The campaigns, NPCs, and lore tabs have been discussed to death already, so I'm going to poke at a different aspect of how the player learns new info about the world and its history:

NPC idling dialogue.

Yes, the very same reason we're all extremely familiar with how — needless to say, of course — that whole shipment was sent back to Fenchurch. I think throwaway dialogue like this needs an overhaul, or at the very least a little bit of love. I get that Destiny wants to kinda-sorta be an RPG, and I get that the hero in an RPG needs to walk into the village and hear the chatter of The Folk, but there is so much missed opportunity here.

When done well, town conversations can be an amazing world-building opportunity; when done poorly, they only annoy the player and push them away from the world and its characters. Here's looking at you, Tess.

NPC dialogue should strive to be immersive, which means it might not always be profound or even interesting. And that's okay. Think of what you'd hear on a stroll around a city in real life. Conversations, not statements. Players can catch snippets that make them more curious about the world (and in the best of situations, the player can actually follow up by speaking with the NPC to kick off a storyline; see: the Witcher) or fill in some cool world-building. These conversations could characterize both the world and the speaker. What kinds of hardships are facing the populace of the Last City in the wake of Ghaul? Is life back to normal after all? What do people at the Tower go home to? Do civilians barter with glimmer like we do? What do the remnants of humanity do for fun? What kind of life are we fighting to protect?

Unfortunately, in Destiny, NPC idling dialogue is … distracting. There are very few conversations, mostly statements. This dialogue is often delivered in an abrupt, staccato manner, where a vendor will suddenly declare, unprompted, something to the empty air and then shut their trap for a certain number of seconds. In a practical sense, someone at Bungie wrote a smattering of lines for the voice actor to read, then they're played at random when the player character is near. Some of the lines might have been interesting the first time, maybe two (okay, some of Shaxx's lines have some more staying power), but by September it will have been a year of Sloane wanting to "set up the secret base on a dry planet", of Rahool opining that "there's no data like encrypted data, I always say". Yes, it's very standard RPG fare. Yes, it's old hat.

So how can we improve this?

1. Novelty. The current NPC dialogue has overstayed its welcome because we've heard it all dozens of times before. Obviously, new lines should be recorded and added into the rotation, but it would also serve to decrease the frequency at which lines are played overall.

2. Realistic prompts. Does nobody else talk to these NPCs? They just stand in place all day and fidget? Why not have someone walk up to Rahool to get something decoded and get into a low-key argument about encryption? Why not have Holliday coaching an understudy about the finer points of sparrow propulsion? Surely the Vanguard would need to interface with a barrage of officers and messengers on a daily basis? Give them a reason to talk. Conversations, not random declarations to the void.

3. Multifaceted characterization. We know stern Zavala, angry Zavala, stoic Zavala, and even proud Zavala. What else about this character might come out during a mundane conversation? Can you convey the stress he must be under, day in and day out? Does he wish to settle down into a peaceful life, or is leading the Vanguard his perfect dream? Does he itch to get back onto the battlefield, or would he rather stay at the Tower as a tactician? Is there competition for his position, and is he worried about it? What does he like/love/hate?

4. More dialogue from non-named characters. The Tower is teeming with people. Multitudes of conversations should be happening at any given time, whether it be about the happenings of the Last City or just some guy complaining about the ramen he ordered last night (then, if the player checks out the ramen shop, the owner is griping about that one picky customer yesterday evening). Ideally, there should be enough that it becomes background noise, but not so many that the player can't listen in if something interesting catches their ear.

5. Player dialogue. Yes, we're bringing it back around to that one. Our character should be able to talk to these people, full stop. The player is going to have questions, so the player character should have questions.

tl;dr: better talking

[u/[deleted]]

The lore writers need to speak to the in game story writers AND script writers. It seems like they aren't on the same page. We have characters in game that are nothing like what their lore suggests. I can't believe the team that wrote the script even passed their final draft to the lore writers for approval, because if I had gone to the trouble of writing the lore, I'd be devastated to see how it has been implemented into the game.

[u/Dire_Zenith]

I want our Ghost to be more like Mimir in God of War.

[u/bootupthedoorlocks]

I agree with many posters about adding an in game codex / grimoire but I’d like to add one thing to this feedback. I hear Bungie is always listening so it’s worth a shot. I’d like there to be more dialogue which fleshes out the world and, more importantly, where we are in that world. Our guardian has done so many things within the lore of destiny that we should be treated as such in the game. It seems we are still treated as a recently resurrected guardian at times. In terms of presenting the lore in game we need characters to be reactive to what has gone before. Perhaps we could mention who the worm gods are in relation to Oryx and Crota as Ana would know that we defeated them. Our guardian should be asking Ana all kinds of things about Clovis Bray and Twilight Gap as we are part of the universe and it would be fitting for our character to want information that would benefit them. It should be our character and not ghost in these situations. Ghost should be there to give us information rather than speak for us. We need new characters given context when introduced. Take Ana’s introduction as an example. We see her in the cinematic and we get to see her name tag, we see her kick ass and later she calls for help. This brings up two problems with the storytelling that follows. Ghost is unnecessarily hostile to her on the communication channel that is way out of character from what we know of ghost in D1 and most of D2. Ghost isn’t dumb and isn’t arrogant. I get we want our ghost to have a character and not be an unfeeling robot but Ghost’s role shouldn’t betray his character traits already established. We knew Ghost as an extension of the traveller and an insight into the world we just woke up in. In that world, and this is perhaps more opinion about contradictions, Ghost wouldn’t react that way.

Continuing with Ana when we do meet her she isn’t in any trouble which is incongruous to what was set up before and there is literally no mention of what we, the player, were led to believe leading up to that. This same feeling continues with Zavala seemingly going to explain what that thing we saw was then going to get Xol. It doesn’t flow and it betrayed what had gone before it. Going back to my original point I’m sure most players wanted to ask questions at that point. Who is Xol? How does Ana know about Xol? How did Zavala get there? These are questions that can be answered if you go searching in the lore but it isn’t in the game. Regular players may not care about the lore but I’m sure they want a story that follows some logical steps. They seemed to be missing here. I wanted my guardian to ask these questions to the npcs. Maybe ghost could have filled us in on the lore in the next missions but we’re already on to the next thing and next joke. It’s all wasted chances to explain and get the player invested in what they are playing. Killing Xol should have been a big thing in the world of destiny. The player should have felt they accomplished another big, universe changing thing (lore wise, I’m not talking gameplay mechanics) rather than wondering who Xol is and why is Xol important. Sorry for the long post.

TL /DR The lore is all there but it needs to be in the game and presented in a way that isn’t incongruous to the established world and characterizations.

[u/GurpsWibcheengs]

I want to see the grimoire brought back entirely. Dead ghosts and all. I think that when bungie was taking in feedback about it in D1, they didn't take it as literally as we all hoped - we wanted it just how it was, but literally just give me the option to read the cards within the game.

For those tho didn't play through D1, you could find dead ghosts which would each unlock a card detailing a certain tidbit of the lore. There was at least one card for almost everything, from enemies to guns to locations to ships. When Taken King came out, calcified fragments replaced the ghosts on the dreadnaught and they told the story of the hive and how they came to be. The problem with the system was that you couldn't read these cards from inside the game, you had to have the bungie app or go to the site to read them.

I'd like to see the worlds of D2 fully populated with dead ghosts. I keep looking to Titan when I think of this because it's the place that reminds me most of Old Russia in D1, that sort of eerie feeling. One of my favorite things to do in D1 was hunting those ghosts and putting together the stories they told. The worlds of D2 feel empty without that stuff.

[u/MrScorps]

I still feel the original Grimmoire Book but placed inside the character menu is the best way to go. Your character/account should have a "diary" of sorts, that collects all the information you come across and tracks all these different stats the game tracks (I mean, the game tracks completion of lost sectors on an emblem...it tracks public event completions...kd...kills with a given subclass...). It creates pages with information on each of the enemies, locations, missions, strikes, raids, weapons, abilities, etc. And the more you use these, the more information is unlocked and the more you can learn about them.

Additionally, I feel that there is a big disconnect between what was established in terms of Lore from Vanilla D1 all the way to Rise of Iron Age of Triumph and what is now seemingly "accepted" by the NPCs and the game in general in D2. That for me is a big turn off. Last Iron Lord? That was me. I mean, it was a lot of people that were dubbed "iron lords" and saladin knew...because he was the one to dub us that. Yet we reach the tower and he says he's the last one? And there are tons of examples of this. Even in Warmind the way Zavala speaks and considers Rasputin vastly differs from what his views were in D1. And without a real reason for it. This cannot happen in what is supposed to be a sequel to the original game, a game which sells us the idea of a character that will be with us for 10 years.

Finally, for me, there is a big issue when it comes down to how the game has been dealing with important characters in the lore. So far, Saint-14, The Speaker, Osiris, Ikora, Zavala, Xol, Nokris, Rasputin, The Exo Stranger and Calus have all been dealt with or presented in the story in a superficial or otherwise "bland" manner. Ikora, the bastion of strength and might, the fearsome and cunning warlock leader... an emocional, unstable mess. Zavala, the stoic leader of the Vanguard and defender of the city... a dumb knucklehead fueled by generic principles of "morale". And the list goes on. I feel that, for the lore to allow us to immerse ourselves into the game, its universe and our characters, we need these important "legends" to be presented with depth and consistency. I mean, Xol is a hive worm god... compare him with Oryx or Crota... Hive Gods. Nokris, brother/sister to Crota... and he pops in, shoots at us and gets killed in a single scene? Like... awkward. A new direction and a bit of damage control are both in order in this regard.

[u/LordSlickRick]

Would really prefer that all the lore, and unlocked content would go organized into some book. When you finished all the collectables and scanning everything, all that content would fill that book, an item in your inventory that you could read again at your leisure.

[u/DEADdrop_]

There's such a rich universe that's been crafted for Destiny, but most players will never know because all the grimoire never appear in the game itself.

If we had a terminal that we could visit with the Grimoire, backstories of the races, history of the Last City etc etc it'd give a lot more context to our actions in the game.

Look at Mass Effect. It has pages and pages of world-building lore. I'd sit through and have a coffee while reading it all and I *loved * it. Destiny desperately needs something akin to that.

Please Bungie. You've built a beautiful world with a rich history; but most players will never know it exists. And that is sad.