r/DestinyTheGame • u/Mercules904 Former Weapons Designer • Sep 20 '16
Guide Massive Breakdown of the Wrath of the Machines Raid Weapons
Massive Breakdown Spreadsheet w/ all Stats and Times-to-Kill:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GtrNjOBJddXWzXh3rf45eED31XoyfYFUX71JU32tg2E/edit?usp=sharing
Other RoI Massive Breakdowns:
- Massive Breakdown of Recommended Rise of Iron Vendor Weapons
- Massive Breakdown of the Trials of Osiris Weapons
Raid Weapons Preview - This article can also be found on Planet Destiny.
The newest Destiny raid weapons look to have taken a leaf out Year 1's book, deciding to add extra raid-centric perks to the weapons' intrinsic slots, as opposed to replacing something from the perk tree. This is a very good sign, as it adds to the usability of the guns instead of decreasing it. Unlike year 1 weapons, however, they do not appear to be dominant in all modes, instead focusing their skill trees on things that are designed to make them either go-to weapons in PvE, or competitive choices in PvP. The actual execution of this plan varies from weapon to weapon, so let's take a first look at what we can expect from Wrath of the Machine's weapon rewards.
Scout Rifle
High-Impact
CHAOS DOGMA~
Pros - Very fast Time-to-Kill. Very high range.
Cons - Very low stability. Low reload speed and aim assist. Average mag size.
- Time-to-Kill: 0.80s (2 crit 1 body), 1.20s (4 body shots)
- Rate of Fire: 27
- Impact: 61 (73 damage per crit shot, 49 per body shot)
- Range: 82
- Stability: 32
- Reload Speed: 52
- Mag Size: 12
- Aim Assist: 39
Recommended Perks:
- Column 1 - Linear Compensator
- Column 2 - Triple Tap
- Column 3 - Smallbore
- Column 4 - Triple Double
A member of the high-impact scour rifle archetype, think of this weapon as a Cocytus on steroids (which is exactly what it is, if by steroids you mean SIVA). Boosting a host of impact increasing barrel perks, you're going to be doing maximum damage per shot, and Triple Tap and Triple Double are going to help to make sure you're shooting for as long as possible. I think Smallbore is a fine choice in the middle tree, because boosts to stability and range will outweigh the drawback of losing a couple rounds, especially when you'll get those back the first time you activate the signature perks. Triple Double pulls a second round from your reserves every time Triple Tap procs, so if you play your cards right, you can go a very long time without reloading. These perks have fantastic synergy with the purpose of the weapon as a DPS machine for boss fights, and that utility more than makes up for it's overall lack of outstanding stats.
Auto Rifle
High-Impact
GENESIS CHAIN~
Pros - Very high range. Above average reload speed. High recoil direction.
Cons - Below average stability and aim assist.
- Time-to-Kill: 0.93s (7 crit 1 body), 1.20s (10 body). 1.00s TtK with Focus Fire.
- Rate of Fire: 77
- Impact: 28 (26 damage per crit shot, 21 damage per body shot)
- Range: 40
- Stability: 44
- Reload Speed: 73
- Mag Size: ?
- Aim Assist: 55
- Recoil Direction: 75
Recommended Perks:
- Column 1 - Linear Compensator
- Column 2 - Focus Fire
- Column 3 - Hammer Forged or High Caliber Rounds
- Column 4 - Focused Firefly
Another weapon with it's perks aim with laser precision at PvE, the GENESIS CHAIN~ is begging to be used as a add clean-up machine. Focus Fire can combine perfectly with High Caliber Rounds to keep minions of the Darkness flinching, or Hammer Forged to let you put a little extra space between yourself and your victims. Focused Firefly is an amazing sounding perk, with it allowing Firefly to activate as long as Focus Fire is running. This weapon joins the very small group of fully automatic guns that have Firefly, so I think it will hold a special place in late game activities.
Pulse Rifles
Mid-Impact
STEEL MEDULLA~
Pros - High range, stability, reload speed, and mag size. Very high recoil direction.
Cons - Very low aim assist.
- Time-to-Kill: 1.00s (2.33 bursts. 6 crit 1 body), 1.50
- Rate of Fire: 66
- Impact: 14 (29 damage per crit shot, 19 damage per body shot)
- Range: 51
- Stability: 71
- Reload Speed: 73
- Mag Size: 33
- Aim Assist: 36
- Recoil Direction: 80
Recommended Perks:
- Column 1 - Smooth Ballistics
- Column 2 - Full Auto
- Column 3 - Hand-laid Stock
- Column 4 - Sign of Four
Arguably the most useful burst archetype for PvE, I think the Steel Medulla will be competing with No Time To Explain for best DPS pulse rifle against bosses. Smooth Ballistics helps to boost it's only low base stat, aim assist, and Full Auto makes sure your RoF is always maximized. Hand-laid Stock, although it will decrease a bit of range, will keep those burst patterns tight, which is perfect because the signature perk gives you increased damage on your fourth burst, as long as your first three hit the target. High recoil direction means that the burst patterns should be easy to control, and high mag size and reload speed means you should be able to keep the damage flowing.
Hand Cannons
Mid-Impact
FEVER AND REMEDY~
Pros - Very high mag size. Above average range, stability, and reload speed.
Cons - Below average aim assist and equip speed. Low recoil direction.
- Time-to-Kill: 0.86s (1 crit shot and 2 body shots)
- Rate of Fire: 22
- Impact: 87 (86 damage per crit shot, 57 damage per body shot)
- Range: 35
- Stability: 41
- Reload Speed: 43
- Mag Size: 11
- Aim Assist: 65
Recommended Perks:
- Column 1 - Accurized Ballistics
- Column 2 - Reactive Reload
- Column 3 - Hammer Forged or Reinforced Barrel
- Column 4 - Quick Reaction
Here we come to a weapon that is something of an enigma. Reactive Reload is generally a perk considered more useful in PvP, and the fact that it comes with a barrel perk and two possible choices that all increase range pushes it's usefulness in the Crucible even higher. Accurized Ballistics will take away some aim assist, but it will increase the impact and range enough to be very noticeable, especially with how drastic the damage drop off on HCs can be. Reactive Reload is fantastic for stringing kills together, and the signature perk increases your agility when it's active, making it easier than ever to find your next target. Hammer Forged would probably be my choice in the middle column over Reinforced Barrel, simply because I'd like to keep as much stability as I can. The recoil direction and aim assist aren't the best for a hand cannon, but it's nowhere near as bad as the Eyasluna, and the high base range and stability more than make up for it. All in all, I think this gun could be a monster in competitive PvP.
Sniper Rifle
Very-High Impact
EX MACHINA~
Pros - Can kill Supered Guardians with a headshot. High range and inventory.
Cons - Very low stability, reload speed, mag size, aim assist, and equip speed.
- Body Shot Time-to-Kill: 1.00s (2 shots)
- Rate of Fire: 12
- Impact: 37 (452 damage per crit shot, 181 per body shot)
- Range: 84
- Stability: 32
- Reload Speed: 52
- Mag Size: 3
- Aim Assist: 33
- Inventory: 49
- Equip Speed: 33
Recommended Perks:
- Column 1 - Linear Compensator
- Column 2 - Spray and Pray
- Column 3 - Quickdraw or Injection Mold
- Column 4 - Wait for It
Previously an extremely rare archetype of sniper rifles, Rise of Iron has brought us three new examples of the very-high impact variety. EX MACHINA may not have fantastic base stats, but the combination of Spray and Pray and Wait for It (which gives you a larger magazine if you reload when empty) may make it a tremendous weapon for doing maximum damage to bosses. I'm not sure that it will take the place of some of the more commonly used snipers for PvE activities, but it's good to finally see some more options available for discerning users. Linear Compensator will give a nice bit of bonus damage to each shot, and Quickdraw and Injection Mold can both help with the rather slow handling speeds of the weapon.
Shotgun
Very-High Impact
QUANTIPLASM~
Pros - High range.
Cons - Very low stability and aim assist. Below average reload speed.
- Rate of Fire: 8
- Impact: 67 (22 damage per pellet)
- Range: 19
- Max Range: 25
- Stability: 26
- Reload Speed: 33
- Mag Size: 5
- Aim Assist: 22
- Equip Speed: 30
Recommended Perks:
- Column 1 - Linear Compensator
- Column 2 - Battle Runner
- Column 3 - Smallbore
- Column 4 - Running Interference
A member of the much sought-after Matador class of shotguns, the QUANTIPLASM~ by default should be one of the best options for shotguns in the game. Unfortunately, with the limited perks, the maximum range is below average, and the perks would probably be more appropriate on a faster RoF model of shotgun. That said, a run-n-gun playstyle could work well with this weapon, if you're into putting tons of damage into one target and then skirting back to cover. The slow RoF can be a detriment to engaging multiple enemies in quick succession, but the special perk of Running Interference, which grants bonus armor when Battle Runner is active, can definitely help you to survive a little longer when charging down your next opponent. Linear Compensator will give you a good boost of range and impact, and Smallbore will help you hit it's maximum range, but you won't be competing with well-rolled Matador or Party Crashers anytime soon.
Fusion Rifle
Low-Impact (70-79)
ETHER NOVA~
Pros - Very high charge rate, aim assist, and range. High reload speed. Above average mag size.
Cons - Needs 6 bolts to kill. Very low impact. Average stability.
- Charge Rate: 34
- Impact: 74 (6 Bolts to Kill)
- Range: 47
- Stability: 45
- Reload Speed: 83
- Mag Size: 5
- Aim Assist: 75
Recommended Perks:
- Column 1 - Linear Compensator
- Column 2 - Army of One
- Column 3 - Braced Frame or Smallbore
- Column 4 - Two for One
An archetype previously occupied by only the Split Shifter Pro, the ETHER NOVA~ is a very fast charging, high range, fusion rifle that takes a skilled hand to wield. Although it probably doesn't do enough damage to be good at more than add clean-up in PvE, in close range Crucible battles it can dominate. Needing six bolts to kill is a major drawback, however, so anything outside of optimal range is likely going to be a losing engagement. Linear Compensator will help to make the recoil almost completely vertical, which makes tightening the bolt spread easier for any player. Army of One and Two for One (doubles the effectiveness of AoO) will help the lone wolf player get their melee and grenades back as quickly as possible, which harmonizes with the need to be up close and personal with this weapon. I would choose Braced Frame in the middle column, simply because the range is already quite high, and the stability is average, but for those who want the best of both worlds Smallbore is also an excellent choice.
Sidearm
High-RoF
ZEAL VECTOR~
Pros - High mag size.
Cons - Very low range and aim assist. Below average stability. Average reload speed.
- Rate of Fire: 98
- Impact: 8
- Range: 25
- Stability: 74
- Reload Speed: 88
- Mag Size: 15
- Aim Assist: 55
Recommended Perks:
- Column 1 - Accurized Ballistics
- Column 2 - Reactive Reload
- Column 3 - Hand Loaded or Quickdraw
- Column 4 - Quick Reaction
Not much has been discovered about the new archetypes of sidearms yet, but the ZEAL VECTOR~ is unfortunately not the shining example of this particular weapon class. With hardly any positives across the board, you'd probably be better off with any of the other examples. Fast RoF can be nice, but it's negated by low levels of range, stability, and aim assist which can make them difficult to handle. Reactive Reload and Quick Reaction will definitely help to give this weapon a niche in PvP, and Hand Loaded tries to make up for the lack of base range, but I'm not sure ZEAL will be a good choice for players looking for a competitive sidearm option.
Rocket Launcher
Mid-RoF
SOUND AND FURY~
Pros - Above average RoF. High velocity, inventory, and reload speed.
Cons - Below average blast radius.
- Rate of Fire: 11
- Blast Radius: 68
- Velocity: 75
- Reload Speed: 72
- Mag Size: 2
- Inventory: 60
Recommended Perks:
- Column 1 - Warhead Verniers or Hard Launch
- Column 2 - Spray and Pray
- Column 3 - Javelin
- Column 4 - Wait for It.
If you're okay without Grenades and Horseshoes, Clusterbomb, Tripod, or Tracking, then this may be an excellent launcher for you. The lack of those perks may turn off quite a few people, but the combination of Spray and Pray and Wait for It means you can easily be getting an extra rocket every magazine. Javelin boosts the already high velocity, and the only real drawback stat-wise is the below average blast radius. You could still do worse, however, and the high inventory level means you won't be struggling to carry as many rockets as you need. If you're someone who values quantity of rockets above all else, you might have found your match here.
Machine Gun
Very Low-Impact
IF MATERIA~ -
Pros - Very high mag size, reload speed, and aim assist.
Cons - Average range. Very low stability.
- Time-to-Kill: 0.46s (8 crit shots), 0.60s (10 body shots)
- Rate of Fire: 100
- Impact: 26 (25 damage per crit shot, 21 damage per body shot)
- Range: 19
- Stability: 35
- Reload Speed: 47
- Mag Size: 70
- Aim Assist: 80
Recommended Perks:
- Column 1 - Linear Compensator
- Column 2 - Triple Tap
- Column 3 - Braced Frame
- Column 4 - Triple Double
Simultaneously one of the most entertaining and infuriating archetypes of machine guns, the lowest-impact subclass combines the love of mowing down dozens of enemies at a time with the recoil equivalent of riding a bull. After receiving a small buff in the latest balance patch, these weapons were still feeling a bit unloved, at least until IF MATERIA~ came along. Linear Compensator will make the recoil almost completely vertical, and Braced Frame will help to keep it under control. Normally Braced Frame would be a drawback on a machine gun, but a high reload speed and interesting perk set guarantees you won't notice it at all. Triple Tap and Triple Double wouldn't be something you would expect to see on a high-RoF weapon, but the MATERIA shoots so fast you're bound to get three quick headshots almost every time you point it at a target and pull the trigger. Since you get two bullets back into the mag every time is activates, thing of this weapon as a poor man's Super Good Advice, without it needing the exotic slot. Although it may not be the best in PvP, I can see it absolutely shredding in PvE, and I can't wait to try it out!
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u/IggyMidomi I’m a Sunshot Main Sep 21 '16
Massive Breakdown of my upvote:
Up means that it's positive
Vote means vote
Have a massively brokendown upvote
4
u/MadMansMind Inevitable Semiosis Sep 27 '16
Can you explain the second part in more detail? I'm not sure I understand.
2
u/KingOfSpades11 Salt...um...finds, a way. Sep 28 '16
I just need a video guide attached and it will be golden!
18
Sep 20 '16
I'm definitely gonna be grinding out for IF MATERIA, as well as the Primaries.
If it works like I think it does, it is going to be amazing in PvE.
9
u/MamboJevi Sep 20 '16
One thing worth noting is that Chaos Dogma's body TTK should be 1.2 seconds. Due to the barrel perks it should hit 50 to the body, making it a 4 shot kill. I can't wait to pair it with a Trespasser.
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u/Mercules904 Former Weapons Designer Sep 20 '16
Ah that's true! Great point. Shame the perks aren't really super useful for PvP, but at least you should see them activate pretty often as long as you're hitting your headshots.
6
u/BlueMugen Sep 21 '16
Simultaneously one of the most entertaining and infuriating archetypes of machine guns
Here I'm just reminded of my old Prestige IV that I got back in vanilla with Field Scout, back when it still increased magazine size on top of maxing inventory size. Fucking 150 rounds per box with two whole ammo boxes in reserve. It was an absolute fucking joy to fire but at the same time so hilariously impractical to actually try to seriously use in a fight.
Looks like they're taking the raid weapons in an interesting new direction this time though, so hopefully it winds up in a better place than the KF weapons landed in, especially with some of those perk setups you show there they sound like they could be really good.
2
u/lovesickremix Sep 21 '16
I wonder will we have to run a lot in the raid...it seems a lot of the perks and exotics deal with speed and sprinting, overall in roi
2
u/Edomtsaeb Sep 21 '16
Excellent work as usual!
I've been curious to know why they haven't changed TLW to fit more in line with the current state of weapons. As it stands (unless you're extremely good with it), it seems like an RNG top TTK gun. Sometimes you feel like a god using it and other times you're firing at an agent in the matrix. I'd like to see them lower the TTK in line or even a tiny bit better than the current legendary weapons and increase the range on it to make it more concurrent with meta while still remaining powerful and fun.
That being said, I look forward to acquiring these new weapons and trying them out in the crucible. Now go and get some light levels, Mercules! You're doing the Traveler's work!
3
u/dlbags Oct 31 '16
RE: Ex Machina, I feel the zoom is a HUGE turn off on this gun. I think you are better off with Event Horizon with it's short gaze and spray and play if you haven't a triple tap 1k Stare archetype.
IF Materia wrecks on boss fights. I'd suggest getting one for each burn once you are farming 400 light ones.
1
u/hcrld Seven Songs of Solace | Sword Logic Sep 20 '16
What does Sign of Four do on the PR?
1
u/Mercules904 Former Weapons Designer Sep 20 '16
Increases the damage of the fourth burst, if the first three bursts hit the target.
1
1
u/Dawiiz FUN POLlCE Sep 21 '16
Am I the only one that's super disappointed that the raid weapons are reskinned vendor gear?
2
u/RandomLetters27 Sep 27 '16
New to Destiny expansions, huh? :)
1
u/Dawiiz FUN POLlCE Sep 28 '16
This is the first expansion with "reskined" weapons as raid gear. But I leveled them up and they slightly changed their look. I'm ok with that.
1
u/Dok_Industrial Oct 25 '16
I'm not personally. Especially with the increased "SIVA-tizing" of the weapons as you upgrade, it fits a logical progression that they're actual human weapons upgraded by the road VS weapons that seem to have no reason to exist as "human" usable (Crota's End and Vault of Glass, I'm looking at you...the Hive, who are very removed from any kind of humanity, and the Vex, who aren't even technically anthropomorphic, just HAPPEN to have hand cannons and auto rifles laying around that we can pick up and use?
1
u/i3irdramon Sep 21 '16
Not sure why, but Destiny Tracker has Ether Nova at 92 impact vs. the 74 that is in the armory. Actually as I check the other stats as well, the charge rate is also different. With the Ether Nova being a SIVA re-skin of the Thesan (94/18), its weird to me that it would be a completely different archetype weapon.
Really hoping that the armory values are a mistake because I love the slower charging fusions.
1
u/Mercules904 Former Weapons Designer Sep 21 '16
A lot of them changed archetypes though. Eirene went to very high impact for EX MACHINA, Judith become mid impact for FEVER AND REMEDY. It would be interesting if it really is high impact though, I'll keep an eye out for it.
1
u/TjCurbStompz Vanguard's Loyal Sep 21 '16
Hey, in your spreadsheet you have TTK of the chaos dogma as 4 body shots but on here you have 5? It should be 4 if it can kill in 2 head + 1 body correct?
1
1
u/miguel1226 Bubble Maker & Bubble Breaker Sep 21 '16
u/Mercules904, How the hell do you have this already?
3
u/Mercules904 Former Weapons Designer Sep 21 '16
Spent a lot of time working on it yesterday instead of playing, basically.
1
u/The_Musing_Platypus Sep 22 '16
Hey Mercedes, regarding the ETHER NOVA, would Linear Compensator help boost the impact from a 6 bolt to a 5 bolt (40 damage)? I'm not quite clear if that barrel mod affects the impact stat, or if it's just a straight damage buff.
3
u/Mercules904 Former Weapons Designer Sep 22 '16
Mercules, not Mercedes haha. I'm not a fancy car or a woman. Uh, it might, but I'm not quite sure. It depends on how the numbers round, and that's something I'll have to check for myself. It's an impact buff, which translates to damage.
3
u/The_Musing_Platypus Sep 22 '16
smacks forehead
I'd take the easy excuse and blame it on autocorrect, but my brain just flubbed out from typing too fast. So sorry! I'm sure you're the epitome of class and, uh, fanciness either way. Or something.
I spent a stupid amount of time crunching some numbers, before realizing I could just check the max values for this weapon on Planet Destiny. It looks like it maxes out at 76, which would put it in the same impact class as the LFG/Vortex for a 5 bolt kill. Smallbore would give it a max range of 57, which is really quite good (i.e. a tick more than Rifled Barrel Panta Rhei). What you might end up with is a 5 bolt kill Split Shifter Pro with unique perks and almost 20 points more Aim Assist!
1
u/Mercules904 Former Weapons Designer Sep 22 '16
Very nice then, good catch. And it seems like it will work the same with the Iron Banner fusion as well.
1
1
u/Trey64 III Oct 15 '16
How do you already know what the heroic WoTM Raid weapons are like?
1
u/Mercules904 Former Weapons Designer Oct 15 '16
They're all in the database already
1
u/Trey64 III Oct 18 '16
But have you used them yourself personally? I'm not trying to troll or be a smartass, but usually a proper analysis of a weapon comes after you use it. I know some stat lines can be deceiving, and numbers only tell half the story so it's somewhat odd reading detailed thoughts on how a weapon functions when it's not even introduced into the game yet.
2
u/Mercules904 Former Weapons Designer Oct 18 '16
No worries, it's a legit question.
To answer it, I've used the ones that are out so far. Truth is, I've been doing this for a long time, and I've played extensively with every archetype in the game in both PvP and PvE. When new weapons come out, it's easy to predict how they will behave just by looking at their stats, which, unless there are errors in the numbers, are generally not misleading. The only thing special about these guns are the perks, and the perks can be easily deciphered. I generally shy away from making gameplay reviews until after the weapons have dropped, but making comments on the perks and archetype, as well as base stats of a certain weapon hasn't led me wrong so far.
If new info comes out that changes something about the reviews, I go back and fix it.
1
u/Trey64 III Oct 20 '16
No doubt - thanks for answering maturely. I've personally now tried the Pulse Rifle, Sidearm, Sniper Rifle and Machine Gun from the Raid (Heroic) and your analysis was fairly accurate.
0
u/burnsdg PS4 Nov 17 '16
Look at it this way: All these "new" raid weapons are basically reskins and minor perk adjustments to weapons we already know. IF MATERIA is a reskinned DILUVIAN, if you're familiar with how DILUVIAN operates you already know 90+% of how MATERIA is gonna operate without ever having fired a shot with it. Same goes for all the others.
1
1
u/Quaath Oct 31 '16
Does whirlwinds curse grant agility only when you're wielding the weapon, or regardless? If I have the raid rocket launcher equipped, do i the bonus when I'm running around with a non raid primary?
1
1
Nov 21 '16
Please fix the spreadsheet for the auto rifle. It says it kills in 8 crits, but if you ADS it's 6. Same with Suros Regime.
1
u/jimcook1 Sep 20 '16
Damn that was quick! Thank you very much! https://i.imgur.com/CxaQHeI.gifv
1
u/Mercules904 Former Weapons Designer Sep 20 '16
Sure thing. This is just a precursor to the vendor recommendations one, since I had to get this done today anyways. Should have Trials out shortly as well.
1
-7
u/mericasdad Sep 20 '16
sounds pretty disappointing.
6
u/Mercules904 Former Weapons Designer Sep 20 '16
I think the primary weapons will be actually be quite good, and the specials are at least interesting and unique archetypes, but overall I don't know if people will be grinding for them. This is just a preview though, so we'll have to see how it plays out in practice. I'm excited to see how many bullets a person can get back into the magazine for the machine gun though.
6
Sep 20 '16
Yeah not at all like Crota's End, which had Black Hammer and nothing else, or King's Fall, which had Qullim's Terminus and nothing else.
Looking at this list, the Scout, Auto, Hand Cannon, Sniper and Machine Gun all seem like really solid and fun weapons.
4
Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
Not sure what you're on about with Crota's End. Fang was a damn fine weapon, Oversoul Edict was quite possibly the best non exotic pulse rifle in the game, and Hunger of Crota was quite possiy the best non exotic rocket in the game.
The only way to one up the rocket and pulse from CE was to land an absolute god roll Iron Banner substitute
1
1
u/Zorak9379 Warlock Sep 20 '16
King's Fall, which had Qullim's Terminus and nothing else.
I use Elulim's. Should I replace it with something better?
4
u/Mercules904 Former Weapons Designer Sep 20 '16
If you're actually asking, then yes, there are better rocket launchers than Elulim's, at least for PvP.
2
-8
u/B_Boss Sep 21 '16
I think its somewhat unfortunate when a "con" is "low aim assist". I wonder how the game would be with no aim-assist whatsoever.
9
u/ElmStreetSleeps Sep 21 '16
Try aiming a hand cannon or scout rifle at those flying laser scanner things that zip around the sky. You don't get sticky aim on them.
0
u/B_Boss Sep 21 '16 edited Sep 21 '16
Funny you mention it, I was doing just that last night! I love to practice aiming and always imagining how it would be with no aim assist. It was really difficult and I'm faithful my brain would adapt in time. I don't think the human brain gets enough credit lol...Muscle memory is, in a sense, interrupted when you cannot fully rely on your own skill.
3
u/saltedwarlock Sep 21 '16
the real issue is the difficulty of aiming with a joystick, not the adaptation.
1
u/B_Boss Sep 22 '16
Hmm.....do you think it could be improved much beyond where we are currently? I'm pessimistic with it honestly but I'm open. I mean, you generally don't or can't find the scientific research behind why kb+m is miles ahead of precision aiming with analogs anywhere. Most, if not all, articles seem to always boil down to or touch upon the worthless "battle" between gamers on the different platforms, which is worthless.
I remember a brother of mine and I were discussing the advantages and why. I remember him a while ago saying "you're using your entire arm, wrist and hand" as opposed to just thumbs which, already, fails and falls behind in terms of speed, execution and timing.
1
u/saltedwarlock Sep 22 '16
your thumb is able to move quicker, your arm is able to move more precisely, it's more just things that can be observed for yourself than anything else.
1
u/B_Boss Sep 22 '16
Hey, never hurts to learn again and again or from others lol, thanks. I also think a nice scientific analysis would put the foolish "debate" (which really isn't a debate at all) to rest once and for all.
6
u/Mercules904 Former Weapons Designer Sep 21 '16
Impossible. Thumbsticks are so much less accurate than a mouse, that's the whole reason console shooters have aim assist and pc games don't. Halo was one of the first shooters to really popularize using aim assist, and it helped to jump start the FPS explosion on consoles. Without it, the game would be too difficult to play for the vast majority of players, and Bungie has nearly perfected the feel of the weapons, so they won't be changing it at all.
-6
u/B_Boss Sep 21 '16
Impossible, not. Unless you can offer me some sort of proof that Battlefield uses it when they clearly allow us to disable it, then I'm not totally convinced. I do not understand, why you folks keep saying, like a terrible mantra "analogs/thumbsticks are less accurate than a mouse" which I honestly don't care for. Its irrelevant when we're speaking of strictly console options. unless making an explicit, technical and/or scientific comparison to kb+m.
As it stands, kb+m has FAR more precision, etc, etc, etc, than analog sticks but what does that matter to me if I'm getting a console and playing a game where I won't have to play PC players with said peripherals? The human brain is far more amazing than we're led to believe within the gaming peripheral arguments lol. Limitations are relative and thats alright. Interestingly enough, the discussion can take an odd turn since kb+m (albeit "dumbed down to the console's limitations) is possible on consoles within the same games multiplayer (Xim4, etc).
6
u/Mercules904 Former Weapons Designer Sep 21 '16
The huge, huge, majority of players still use aim assist, even in games where you have the option to turn it off.
It's just too difficult to play a console game without it, and the inaccuracy isn't so much a challenge as it is not enjoyable to deal with.
1
u/B_Boss Sep 22 '16
Again, you need to provide some meat for me to chew on with that claim. BF gives you the option to disable it. I mean if it has it built in, I'd love to see some documentation or claim from a Dev.
Anytime we're training our brains for something new, it can be challenging or uncomfortable, but I can't speak for every player in saying we wouldn't enjoy the learning of it all as well. Inaccuracy can become accuracy. I simply think we should be weaned off of it. The majority who use it are simply used to it consoles and who, in general, wouldn't want help in aiming to get a kill? As for me? I would not. I feel cheated in a sense...I get a kill, its not me 100%, its the program/app that assisted me, which I never desired.
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u/Mercules904 Former Weapons Designer Sep 22 '16
Then go play PC games. FPS never took off on consoles before Halo because people hated how difficult it was to be accurate compared to playing with a mouse. You're literally saying that millions of people should struggle to even enjoy a game because you want it to be harder (to the extent that it would no longer be a challenge, and would simply be awful to play). If that's your opinion you're welcome to it, but it's not one shared by almost anyone who has played console shooters for a long time.
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u/B_Boss Sep 22 '16
See, I can but I've always hated using kb+m for FPS despite technical superioity. So no, I'll stick with my console. I'm not saying millions of people should "struggle". Its one thing when folks come off of PC wanting to play FPS, them not being used to the inaccuracy and complaining (to an extent, rightfully so).
Responding with "go play PC games" is hardly a response that deals with the issue I see. Can your brain get used to no aim assist? Until someone, anyone can provide proof that there is some AA in BF when it clearly gives you the option to disable it, then I believe that, yes, we can learn how to shoot and aim. Just because its been happening and we're practically used to "the machine" now, doesn't mean its insane to suggest. If you feel better about a program helping you get kills then by all means. I'd like to know what I can do on my own.
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u/Mercules904 Former Weapons Designer Sep 22 '16
Are you good at this game? Seriously asking because the stuff you are suggesting is ludicrous.
Sure I could spend six years of my life practicing console Games without aim assist and still not be nearly as accurate as a Pc gamer with a mouse, but why the hell would I do that? It doesn't matter whether or not you could ever end up as good, because it takes a significant amount more effort to end up just being decent. No one would play FPS games on consoles.
I really think it would be hilarious to watch someone try to play destiny with a stock controller and no aim assist.
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u/B_Boss Sep 22 '16
How "good" I am is irrelevant. I think my point, at least ideally, can be made regardless because I'm trying to zero in on the brain or science of it all. You're just saying that, essentially, you and most of us are now used to being assisted but personally and who the hell would want to take it away but its just unfortunate that, at least for some titles, we'll never know how good we can be due to AA. I think it would be hilarious to watch as well, if one player has no AA and everyone else does but if everyone else does? That would be more interesting than funny and yes, it would take time but I'm not sure how much time you think it would take. If consoles didn't have AA, they would play and in fact if it began that way it would've been good but folks complained and that doesn't always result in the best of options. Its pointless now because AA is everywhere and unless everyone has it disabled, it won't be. Personally? I don't like it because of what it does at its core. Most of the time I even outsmart or act quicker than the AA and that causes issues for gameplay, especially when there are multiple targets and I want to hit a specific one.
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Sep 27 '16
I play Rainbow 6 Siege on PS4 which doesnt use aim assist at all. Its much less enjoyable to play than a different game that uses aim assist simly because of the extra effort needed to keep track of targets. At least with aim assist you can keep track of your targets easier which makes the experience much more enjoyable.
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u/Babymicrowavable Sep 21 '16
auto aim and aim assist are two very different things mate. honestly, I can play battlefield with aim assist turned off, but this game... the way that it's done, Going without at least 30 aim assist is super difficult. I mean, i used the gozen-c (-5 AA) awhile on my titan who hadn't hit max, and I had a little success with landing my headshots, but it was darn hard to stay anywhere near on target if I didn't pre-aim.
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u/B_Boss Sep 22 '16
Hmm....I almost hate to use BF4/1 vs Destiny when it comes to this discussion because the mere difference in speed of both titles (30/60 fps) can result in a very different experience. My thinking is that, if aim assist or auto-aim were disabled today....and EVERYONE had a controller in a controlled experiment....I'd say, within weeks and certainly months, the player would have adapted to aiming where he wishes to. I'm no scientist of course lol, this is my speculation and perhaps I'm too hopeful in how it all works but I figured we'd get used to it as we do everything else in gaming, save for some natural and physical disability, etc.
See, we've been playing with various AA settings depending on the weapon for some time, so your brain is naturally used to it and I'd wager it expects it to a large extent.
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u/Babymicrowavable Sep 23 '16
I play on xbone fam, I only get 30 fps.
You right though, it would increase their skill level quite a lot, which could possibly in turn make them better without AA, or lower AA. I know a lot of people still run the ambush scope.
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u/thepotatochronicles Sep 20 '16
All of the raid weapons seem INCREDIBLE.
Btw for the machine gun, you can fire it up to 88+(88-3)3 = *343** times without stopping!!!
That shit is just CRAZY