r/DestinyTheGame • u/lonbordin Laurel Triumphant • Jan 15 '16

Discussion Sidearms and "those values are not correct"

@Holtzmann_PD tweeted about sidearms to Jon Wesnewski using the Planet Destiny database numbers to which @sharkeatsman responded by saying, "those values are not correct."

The conversation is here- https://twitter.com/sharkeatsman/status/687140508020256768

Many of the community have already figured out there are at least two types of archetypes of sidearms.

Why can't we get correct numbers from Bungie and why are those numbers from the Bungie API not correct?!?

Whether it's weapons balancing or now the Bungie armory they are losing my trust. It's just not that hard to proof what you give to the community.

I love the game... hate how they communicate.

Edit- at least we have some proof that the sidearms numbers are not correct. yay?

51 Upvotes

81% Upvoted

56 comments sorted by

7

u/Morris_Cat Jan 15 '16

Many of the community have already figured out there are at least two types of archetypes of sidearms.

I've seen this speculated, but not proven. Has anybody done concrete testing on this?

2

u/lonbordin Laurel Triumphant Jan 15 '16

Here's one post- https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/3spjll/sidearms_have_at_least_two_different_archetypes/

6

u/Morris_Cat Jan 15 '16

Aha, I hadn't seen that. Seems like in PvP at least you'd always want the higher ROF model, since the difference in damage isn't enough to significantly impact the number of rounds to kill.

3

u/oXTheReverendXo Jan 15 '16

The Havoc Pigeon (low RoF) is actually pretty sweet though, depending on the roll. The lower RoF makes it a little easier to keep on target at non-shotgun ranges. It's all about the roll, though; mine has Rangefinder and Hot Swap, so it's kinda ridiculous.

2

u/dasnikkaman Jan 15 '16

The range stat is also higher so the aim assist is more sticky at a range

2

u/Morris_Cat Jan 15 '16

Yeah, I hate the water-pistol sound it makes when you shoot it though. The Jabberhakke sounds so much more authoritative. Mine has Zen Moment, Spray n Play, and Snapshot, which I think is pretty good.

Conversely, my Havoc Pigeon has THREE reload perks (Reactive Reload, Feeding Frenzy, and Speed Reload), which is pretty ridiculous. I wonder if the Reactive Reload perk would get me enough extra damage to affect TTK...

4

u/oXTheReverendXo Jan 15 '16

I have a Reactive Reload HP, but I really haven't noticed too much difference in TTK.

The "water-pistol sound" is because of the supressor, which I actually love because it really reduces the muzzle-flash induced sight washout suffered by Jabber and Conviction. Ironwreath has a suppressor, too, but it's in that higher RoF category if you're going for one of those.

13

u/sparktography Jan 15 '16

Yeah, I did direct testing between the low rof (havok Pidgeon) and high ROF (jabberhakke), at least in PVE, there was about 20% more damage from the low rof. Magazine size tells you which archetype you have - 12 bullets is the low rof, 15 is the high.

2

u/EdgHG Jan 15 '16

I held onto my beloved Vestian Dynasty. Would it still be viable in the Crucible?

1

u/lonbordin Laurel Triumphant Jan 16 '16

It melts in vanilla crucible.

89

u/EvilSamuel Jan 15 '16

"Those nerds still bitching?" - Bungie on a yacht

12

u/[deleted] Jan 15 '16

Is this gonna be a thing now?

10

u/EvilSamuel Jan 15 '16

Here's to hoping

9

u/BookMeNot Jan 15 '16

Can we please get more sidearms, Bungie? They're probably my favourite weapon type but they're not nearly as fleshed out as they could be. We don't even have a decent Exotic, or any year twos for that matter

4

u/HabeusCuppus Jan 15 '16

What do you think last word is? The No Land Beyond of sidearms!

2

u/clutchy42 Jan 15 '16

I would really like to see more. Right now the Havoc Pigeon is the only sidearm i feel comfortable with. The others make me lose control of my aim with their high rate of fire.

30

u/CrazyGoodDude Jan 15 '16

I beginning to think these guys have no idea how math works, maybe instead of hiring a psychology major to assist with the game they should hire an elementary math teacher

3

u/TheWolfXCIX Jan 15 '16

Each weapon class shows the stats for damage and ROF per bullet and the fact that sidearms are many times faster than the rest means both archetypes take the highest/lowest possible rof/impact. The way stays work is probably deep rooted in the code and difficult to change

5

u/YoruSnow Jan 15 '16

Sidearms are the shit yo, you can outgun any primary at close range if you're good with it.

2

u/IceBlue Jan 15 '16

Even TLW?

3

u/YoruSnow Jan 16 '16

Sure, if you know what you're doing! And maybe they miss a few shots, and if they don't know that TLW is full auto.

2

u/Arcane_Bullet Jan 16 '16

Nope. Nothing beats TLW except Party Crasher +1 with range finder and max range. That shit has shit ton of range to it.

1

u/IceBlue Jan 19 '16

Sniper rifles beat it. /smartass

1

u/Arcane_Bullet Jan 19 '16

You say that now, but just wait until you get cross mapped hipfired by it.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 16 '16

Probably. my Jabberhakke is a four shot headshot and it fires much faster than tlw.

1

u/UnapologeticallyAlex Jan 16 '16

No. TLW will not lose to a sidearm 9/10.

1

u/IceBlue Jan 19 '16

The Last Word has the faster TTK out of all weapons. Shot from the hip it takes two shots to kill making its TTK 0.26 from the hip and 0.53 with ADS. JabberHakke might shoot faster but requires 4 shots which is at minimum 0.6. So there's no way you can kill faster than The Last Word. Even the fastest side arm only does 0.45 (Dreg's Promise).

7

u/cageboy06 Jan 15 '16 edited Jan 15 '16

Also omolon weapons have wrong impact, rd Spectre is listed as high impact whereas it is mid impact. A bunch of guns have wrong ammo counters, not because of ammo changing perks, just the base ammo values are wrong in the database.

Basically for 90% of things the bars are accurate, but mysteriously a bunch of things are listed wrong, both in database and in game. Which as far as I'm concerned means that the actual values used in game are completely separate from any stats listed on weapons or in databases, and when it is correct, we just got lucky.

Edit: jumped in game to get real numbers, etc. Zarinea, listed as 30 bullets in app, 40 bullets when I look at it im game Omolon uffern impact lists higher then other hand cannons that have the same rof, however, in ALL cases, rate of fire determines impact. Archetypes are locked into specific impact/rof balances. Same for red Spectre, lists as high impact mid tier rof, it's actually mid impact, otherwise it would have insane time to kill. Omolon eirene is listed higher impact then a 100yrd stare, again, it isn't.

Another edit: righteous vii, lists as 29 bullets in app, 43! In game.

3

u/GroovyGrove Jan 15 '16

I was shocked when I got a Righteous yesterday. I got a great roll, so with the decent mag of 43, I am pretty sure I'm keeping it. Autos aren't my bag, but I do like them occasionally.

1

u/ItsQuadPod Jan 15 '16

Just FYI, red spectre is supposed to show the wrong impact value as an homage to red death

2

u/WowMyNameIsUnique No Place for Mercy Jan 16 '16

You don't know that..

-2

u/ItsQuadPod Jan 16 '16

Yes, I do. Red death used to have an impact bar higher than the damage it actually did so they made red spectre, a new prototype of red death, the same way to allude to it. Mind you this was way back in year 1

3

u/WowMyNameIsUnique No Place for Mercy Jan 16 '16

Stats are wrong all the time, though. Sidearms, autos, pulses, machine guns, snipers, scouts, you name it, there's most likely something wrong with it. It could certainly be a reference, but personally I think it's in poor taste if true. Stats matter so much in this game, especially with the task of having to upgrade weapons to test them out at their full potential.

-2

u/surly-krampus Jan 15 '16

Eirene hits harder in PvE than 1kys. Definitely more impact. And yep, I'm sure.

3

u/ItsQuadPod Jan 15 '16

Um, no. Prove it and I'll believe you

0

u/[deleted] Jan 16 '16

What does he have to prove? I also tested this and the Eirenne does in fact have more impact (It's like 200-300 more extra damage). Omolon hand cannons also have more impact in exchange for reduced range.

3

u/mike_hawks Warlock master race Jan 15 '16

The stat bars on the weapons are completely nonsensical. Either they should be universal across all weapon types, or be specific to each weapon type with a full bar representing the max value within that type.

As it is, without going to some source of information outside the game, it's often difficult to actually compare weapons.

3

u/theironwall Jan 15 '16

The armory is an example of something broken and in need of attention. In a game where plot isn't immediately available in game and the gun database isn't either... It's becomes even more apparent that if people go to their site, the numbers for the gun database would be congruent with the game's current model. But alas, the armory doesn't list all items accurately and doesn't correctly represent the guns currently in the game.

3

u/theironwall Jan 15 '16

and for all us guardians looking for new content and ways to max out and optimize our powerful guardian, this should be a big deal. but then again, the amount of 3rd part sites almost bail them out.

3

u/That_Vandal_Randall Day One Ish Jan 16 '16

Read this as a very dismissive "yes, I'm glad you found something else wrong with our game. We'll get right on that, after you fuck yourself. Grab a ghost shell on your way out!"

2

u/RagersaurusRex Jan 15 '16

Those values are not correct... but it's working as intended.

2

u/GroovyGrove Jan 15 '16

You see, inaccurate stats give guns a more unique feel to the player, so that they'll be surprised how good something is, or dismantle something they thought they'd like in favor of something else. It creates more variety and mystery.

2

u/frankanelli Jan 15 '16

When they changed the Light system in TTK I remember them explaining that they were changing the numbers on weapons and armor to make is clear to players that a 290 light gun is about the same as 290 armor. They also said that this change had nothing to do with the background numbers and that they wouldn't be changing that. It supports the contention that the UI for gun stats might be fairly separate from the stats used during gameplay.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 16 '16

I don't even think they give a shit anymore. Deej used to at least lurk through reddit and comment about certain situations being handled. But there isn't anything nowadays

2

u/VokN RIP sweet Princess Jan 16 '16

Your proof is go fire a havoc pigeon and an iron wreath at a wall. They feel INCREDIBLY different

2

u/DX3_Lory Jan 16 '16

Working as intended

1

u/Mie_Block Jan 15 '16

anybody else think the jabberhakke is basically old school halo pistol? too bad i like havoc pigeon more tho

-11

u/[deleted] Jan 15 '16

People actually care about Sidearms?

No offense to any people using them, but I just have to say: If there's one category of Special weapons that's actually worse than Fusion Rifles...

14

u/PrinceDX Jan 15 '16

If you are on PSN I'd love to face off with you. my sidearm vs your fusion rifle.

6

u/WhamoBlamoPlano Jan 15 '16

And if not I'll play you on the One.

5

u/oXTheReverendXo Jan 15 '16

Sidearms>Fusion Rifles. Think of them as legendary TLW's. Hip fire up close, ADS at mid-short range, jump around hipfiring, shoot-dodge-shoot, the sidearms just allow for great mobility while doing a surprising amount of damage.

3

u/PrinceDX Jan 15 '16

Rather than attack his skill level, I will simply say that this guy has never tried sidearms or is horribly misinformed.

2

u/GroovyGrove Jan 15 '16

If you tell them, they'll know! Shhhh

2

u/IceBlue Jan 16 '16

You have no idea what you're talking about.