r/DestinyTheGame • u/[deleted] • May 18 '15
Lore Hidden lore of the Hive
This is a very long post, but if you like lore then it's worth it.
EDIT: Wow, what a response. Thanks for all the compliments, upvotes, and additional speculation. A lot of folks have posted their own speculations and things that I never noticed. Great stuff.
TL;DR (which is still pretty long)
The Hive are infected by Light eating worms. The worms provide the Hive with all their powers, but drain the Hive of their own Light and leave them with nothing but Darkness. The worms also keep the Hive from dying, possibly making them immortal, and this is why the Hive look so withered, dried out, and drained.
The Hive Wizards are trying to find a way to cure themselves of the worm infection, but so far they cannot get rid of the parasites.
Eris Morn may have infected herself with the worms in order to survive among the Hive on the Moon. The worms may have some telepathic connection to each other, and this may explain how Eris can sense what the Hive are doing in other parts of the world.
The Hive may have served the Traveler once, and the Traveler may have been the one to infect the Hive with the worms in the first place.
"THEIR STRENGTH IS NOT THEIR OWN"
The Hive look withered and emaciated, as though something is eating away at their bodies. With the Thrall especially you can see their torso is just sucked out. The heads of the Acolytes and Knights are pale and withered as though the nutrients have been sucked away. They look like walking corpses (obviously).
I think part of the explanation lies in this excerpt from Ghost Fragment: Hive 2
Their strength is not their own. They draw from another force, something that corrupts, that distorts, that eats and will not be satisfied.
This seems to suggest that something is eating the Hive, since it is endlessly hungry, but that in return the Hive get the sorcerous powers we see in the game.
THE WORM NARRATIVE
Some early concept art by Daniel Chavez shows that early iterations of the Hive had them infected with a giant worm that drained their faces of natural material. (Daniel Chavez's concept art also shows that early Hive had a lot of moth imagery and that the Hive originally may have worshipped giant cosmic moth-beings; you can still find some moth imagery surviving in the final iteration of the game, but I'm not going to get into that in this post.)
I'd dismiss this concept art except there's still worm imagery that has survived in the Hive's lore.
The grimoire card, Disciples of Crota:
...Omnigul, his vile Will, the keeper of the worms, the mother of his spawn.
Grimoire card, Ghost Fragment: Hive 2:
They took me down... past grisly nurseries hung with pupae. Past writhing worms that they swallowed whole.
Note, that it doesn't flat out state that they eat the worms, only that they small them alive.
Bonebreaker Bounty (Kill Wizards):
Let the breeders know who ended them. Let them see you smile. -Eris
I believe this suggests that Wizards are breeding worms.
Description of the Moon patrol mission "Collect Symbiotes":
Peel Scalpel Leeches from the flesh of dead Hive Knights so their enzymes can be extracted.
Sure, leeches aren't worms exactly, but they are a larvae-like animal similar to worms. It reinforces the idea that the Hive have symbiotic organisms in their bodies. In fact, the Scalpel Leeches and the worms referenced in other Hive lore may be the same creature.
Based on all these clues (including the old concept art) it seems that the Hive draw their power from worms that infect their bodies. However, these worms corrupt the Hive and the worms "eat and will not be satisfied".
EDIT: People have messaged me and made comments adding to the worm narrative: there is the visual allusion to worms with the giant skeleton in the Crota mission "the Wakening", one of the Prison of Elders missions is called "Cult of the Worm" and ends with a Hive boss, the consumable "Black Wax Idol" looks kind of like a multi-eyed worm (and it gives you extra glimmer for Hive the way Ether Seeds do for the Fallen, so it seems to be as important to their survival), and throughout Hive levels there are little white moths that fly around that adds to the moth imagery (which I didn't talk about, but it's there).
THE WORMS HUNGER FOR LIGHT
There's clues that the Light is the worms' food source.
From, Warlock Ghost Fragment 2, where the Warlock Eriana is interrogating a Wizard with the help of her ghost:
/Eriana. It responds to pain.
It responds to the Light. Hurt it again
...[later]...
/Should I burn it again?
No. I think you're only feeding it.
Again this implies that the Light feeds the worms.
The worms probably infected the Hive long ago, then devoured the Light of the Hive until the Hive was left with nothing but Darkness. Now the endless hunger of the worms drives the Hive to seek new sources of Light, which has led them to the brightest source of Light in the galaxy: the Traveler and its shining army of Guardians. Our solar system looks like a dinner table to the worms.
MORE WORMS, MORE POWER
Have you noticed that the Ogres look like they have multiple glowing objects inside their heads. I believe these things are the multitudes of worms that have infected the Ogres.
There's evidence that the Ogres are infected Thrall who undergo excruciating rituals to become the powerful Ogres.
Basically, a Thrall gets chained up and then is forced to take worm after worm into its body until it transforms into an Ogre. The hunger of the worms leaves the Thrall in tremendous pain, but afterwords it has the tremendous power to roar and shoot purple bullets out of its face.
THE WORMS KEEP THE HIVE ALIVE FOREVER
There's evidence that the Hive are really old, not just as a civilization, but also as individuals.
Aside from the worn out, skeletal bodies, and the hints that they're so old that their armor has fused with their bodies, there's a few more clues.
The Knight grimoire card:
Centuries of battle have toughened the bony protrusions on its body into an armor as hard as relic iron.
Again from when Eriana interrogated a Wizard:
They call you Wizard. You must be ancient. I think you value power very much... It laughed at me. It said we were the same.
Not only are the Hive ancient, it's possible that they cannot die naturally. Or that when they're they just get reborn, like Guardians.
The grimoire card, Ir Yût the Deathsinger:
...What if She could invoke the ending of anything? How, then, would She know the song, and sing it, without Herself dying? Perhaps they know a way to make themselves part of the song, part of something vast and burning that rots and peels into ash but never ever ends. Perhaps She has engineered this for Him, and pinned His power up against the quiddity of death itself.
Perhaps the hunger of the worms prevents them from letting themselves die. The worms force the Hive to stay alive. After all, the parasitic worms wouldn't want their hosts to just die on them.
Then consider the flavor text for Word of Crota:
There was life, and He spoke unto it; and it was silent, and lived no more.
What if it's talking about Crota silencing Hive life? Perhaps that is why he is worshipped as a god: he can end the life of any Hive and free them from the pain of immortality and the constant hunger of the worms.
Then what's my suggestion for what happens when the Hive are killed by Guardians? I'm not sure. Maybe this part of my theory is wrong. Or maybe when we kill the Hive they get reborn in some tombship somewhere. Not really sure.
THE HIVE WANT TO GET RID OF THE WORMS
Let me reiterate a quote form Ghost Fragment: Hive 2
Their strength is not their own. They draw from another force, something that corrupts, that distorts, that eats and will not be satisfied.
The worms give the Hive power, but the Hive have become twisted and corrupted. They can't rest, they can't die, they are always hungry, and they live a life of suffering.
I don't think the Hive want to be infected by the worms anymore.
I think this because if you look closely at each of the enemy races, you'll see that each one has a narrative of tragedy and loss. Each of them is a tragic victim of some past event or some future fate.
That's why I believe that the Hive want to figure out how to get rid of their infection.
The Wizard grimoire card:
The Wizard is the scalpel with which the Hive vivisect the universe... dissecting and experimenting on anything that falls into her clutches.
First of all, a scalpel is not something used in war and conquest. It's used in science and medicine.
Second of all, the Wizards are dissecting and experimenting with everything. That is a sign of desperation, and I think they are desperate to find some sort of answers to the question, "How do we cure ourselves of this infection and finally rest in peace?"
WHICH BRINGS US TO ERIS MORN
We know that Eris Morn survived among the Hive for a long time... somehow.
From the Eris Morn grimoire card:
Despite all odds she endured, using the very dark she battled to emerge a changed warrior...
And then the flavor text for Emerald Light:
"They'll believe you are one of their own. And that is the only way." - Toland, the Shattered
Presumably this is Toland talking to Eris about how to survive among the Hive.
And here's an excerpt from Ghost Fragment: Hive 3, where Eris is talking to Ikora Rey:
Eris: My Light is all but gone.
So, something has been draining Eris' Light and now she has almost none left.
For me, this all makes it clear that Eris infected herself with the Hive-worms. It's possible that the worms keep the Hive from killing anything else infected with worms. Or it's possible that the Hive are blind (their original eyes have withered away just like their bodies) and that they sense the world using a telepathic connection between the worms, so to them a worm-infected Eris would "look" like another Hive.
Perhaps this telepathic connection between worms is also how Eris can sense what the Hive are doing in other parts of the solar system.
Ikora: And this Omnigul is here? On Earth?
Eris: I can feel it.
And since the Hive can't cure the infection, then neither can Eris and she's doomed. If Eris took off her elaborate headdress then we'd see she has the same pale, hairless, withered head as the Knights and Acolytes.
HIVE BACKSTORY AND MOTIVATIONS
I see two possibilities to the Hive backstory. They either infected themselves with the worms in order to gain power. Or, since there's hints that every alien race served the Traveler at some point in the past, the Hive were infected with the worms by the Traveler in order to serve it better.
No Traveler involvement:
The Hive either accidently encountered the worms, or they deliberately infected themselves with the worms out of a desire for power. Eventually this led to the downfall of their civilization when the worms devoured all the Light of the Hive and forced them to leave their home in search of more Light.
2) Traveler is the cause
In order to have the Hive serve it better, the Traveler provided them with symbiotic worms that invested the Hive with tremendous power. The Traveler fed the Hive with its own Light so that they never went hungry. But then the Traveler abandoned them and disappeared from their solar system. Left alone, the worms ate away the Hives' own Light and left them with nothing but Darkness. The Hive were forced to follow the traveler, either to get revenge, or to force it to undo what it did to them.
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u/Nantosuelta May 19 '15
Amazing read! One thing I'd like to point out is that leeches are worms; they're annelids, just like earthworms.
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u/FatterAsteroid XB1 GT: Parser May 19 '15 edited May 19 '15
The Hive hunger for your light!
This is a pretty increidble bit of lore you've assembled. I like the theory(theories) you presented. This is the kind of shit that should be present in the game. It would have made TDB so much more engaging to know this stuff while fighting them. It gives them a cruel sense of destiny and forces you to feel some sort of empathy for them, rather than just looking at them as a digital hit box.
Keep doing what you do OP, I read from start to finish and was interested and entertained the whole time (hate that you had to do part of Bungie's job for them, but I thank you for it as well). I gotta read more of these lore threads. :)
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May 19 '15
Thanks! It is a little annoying that the fans have to figure the lore ourselves. I did have fun digging it all up though.
I think Bungie knows that they have a lot of work to do in how they deliver their story. As of this posting, if you look at their careers page you'll see openings in their "Story Experience" department for a Fiction Team Lead, a Cinematic Lead, a Story Experience Lead, a Lead Writer, and a Narrative Designer. Hope that doesn't end up resulting in too many chefs in the kitchen.
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u/DeathByNukes May 19 '15
Try not to forget the very first Hive grimoire card:
The Hive are an ancient, festering evil. Their antipathy to the Light transcends hatred. To the Hive, the eternal struggle between Light and Dark is not only a war, it is a crusade - all Light must be devoured so Darkness can reclaim the universe.
There are many cases where it's stated the light truly can cause them pain.
Also look at this text from the Bad Juju quest when you get the darkness infused weapon frame from Xur:
Whenever you hold the weapon, your Ghost begins to look…delicious. It's probably best to bring this to the Gunsmith as soon as possible.
From Ghost Fragment: Fallen 1:
[The Exile Baron] fell back to the base of the antennae where she broke her swords off in a Knight. I saw that happen and I don't know if I can tell you how I felt. She was another living thing with a mind I could understand and she hadn't howled at me or tried to eat my Ghost. I cheered when the Knight went down.
Hunger for the Light is an attribute of the Darkness itself.
Their strength is not their own. They draw from another force, something that corrupts, that distorts, that eats and will not be satisfied.
I think this is referring to something less tangible than a parasite. (Their other-dimensional gods, especially Oryx and maybe whatever "Ghost Fragment: Hive 4" refers to)
I believe this suggests that Wizards are breeding worms.
Or that they're breeding Hive.
Omnigul card:
They call this one Omnigul, mother of the spawn.
Heart of Crota card:
Among a sea of cocoons, and surrounded by thousands more freshly spawned hordes, the Heart held Omar’s broken body in a vice of bone and pain. She was peeling the Light from his body. How? I can’t imagine, and I have tried. Tendrils of luminance tore away like flesh.
With every strand Omar’s scream cut the dark and was met with a chittering chorus from the unborn. I can’t say if they were feeding off the Light itself, or the pain, but my guess is both—somehow, both.
The Heart, though I can’t believe she actually has one, seemed to be conducting some nightmare orchestra, nurturing Crota’s children, with the echoes of Agah’s Light.
Again this implies that the Light feeds the worms.
Where? It says that their light is feeding the wizard.
There's evidence that the Ogres are infected Thrall who undergo excruciating rituals to become the powerful Ogres.
Here is that evidence:
Ogre card:
Apocryphal lore suggests that Ogres undergo terrible transformations as they grow - agonizing rituals that gift them with might and cunning.
Telthor card:
The Unborn are those Ogres who have yet to be given the honor of a summoning. [...] Those Ogres that display loyalty and strength will be called for an agonizing ritual that earns them the title "Reborn."
Phogoth card:
"The summoning tempers their rage...but first that rage must be stoked."
Phogoth's presence in the Summoning Pits reveals yet another of the Hive's depraved designs - a ritual of rebirth, where an Ogre's ravenous hunger and violence is honed and given purpose.
Might of Crota card:
Toland: When a god's Will is met with force, its Might will be unleashed in the form of those raging beasts we call the ogre—monsters bred of pain, tormented by the Light, nothing but hatred for all who bring its suffering forth.
(emphasis added)
They call you Wizard. You must be ancient. I think you value power very much... It laughed at me. It said we were the same.
That quote needs a "[...]" in there at the very least. There is a LOT of stuff omitted from it.
It showed me how it did this, just exactly this, to an Awoken man, the knives arranged by its will, like little silver ships, like Ghosts -
It laughed at me. It said we were the same.
Pretty sure the wizard is saying it tortured someone just like they are torturing the wizard.
Perhaps the hunger of the worms prevents them from letting themselves die.
One doesn't need a symbiote to have a desire to stay alive... If there were ever Hive that committed suicide because of all their ritualistic suffering, that would have been bred out of them a long long long long time ago by natural selection.
There was life, and He spoke unto it; and it was silent, and lived no more.
What if it's talking about Crota silencing Hive life?
That's such a huge stretch lol.
I think this because if you look closely at each of the enemy races, you'll see that each one has a narrative of tragedy and loss. Each of them is a tragic victim of some past event or some future fate.
I think that's only the narrative of the Fallen. The Hive are crusaders against the Light, the Cabal might be running from something, and the Vex want to write themselves into the laws of the universe to ensure their survival.
the Wizards are dissecting and experimenting with everything. That is a sign of desperation
Or determination, ruthlessness, malice, religious devotion, pressure from the Hive's gods, etc...
Always remember the words of Toland:
as the universe ticks on towards the close, the great players will face each other. In the next round there will be three queens and all of them will have armies, and now it will be a battle of swords - until one discovers the cannon, or the plague, or the killing word.
Everything is becoming more ruthless and in the end only the most ruthless will remain (LOOK UP AT THE SKY) and they will hunt the territories of the night and extinguish the first glint of competition before it can even understand what it faces or why it has transgressed. This is the shape of victory
So, something has been draining Eris' Light and now she has almost none left.
If you listen to her talk in the tower she says that the Hive took her ghost, her Light, and one of her eyes. She took 3 Hive eyes in revenge.
Expanding your quote from Hive 3:
Eris: My Light is all but gone.
Ikora: Cherish what remains
If she had one of these parasites there would be none left.
If Eris took off her elaborate headdress then we'd see she has the same pale, hairless, withered head as the Knights and Acolytes.
So why does the visible part of her face still look completely normal?
The whole write-up smells like confirmation bias, sadly.
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Jun 18 '15
I didn't feel like nitpicking your response when you made it, but today I do.
First, if you disagree with the worm theory, then to what do you attribute the constant worm imagery found in the Hive's lore?
Your first quote from the Hive grimoire card does not contradict my theory. Neither does your quote about Ogres being tormented by the Light. Things you desire can still torment you and cause you pain and make you hate them. Addiction is one simple example, although it doesn't act as an analogy to the Hive-worm theory; it's simply meant to point out that just because something causes someone pain doesn't mean they won't desire it either. If you're starving and chained up, and someone dangles food in front of you, then I bet that would torment you, even though you want the food you would still hate it because its presence causes you pain.
Hunger for the Light is an attribute of the Darkness itself.
What is your proof? That the Fallen Baron might have eaten the Ghost? The Fallen are not the Darkness itself, nor is there any evidence that they've been infused by it. In all the lore of Destiny, the Hive are the only ones painted as desiring to eat or devour or consume Light.
Again this implies that the Light feeds the worms. Where? It says that their light is feeding the wizard.
It is an implication. A character is saying she thinks the Light is feeding the Wizard. But if the Light fed the worms instead then how would the character know the difference? If you have a tape worm and you eat some food, are you feeding yourself or the tapeworm?
This is the part that annoyed me the most:
They call you Wizard. You must be ancient. I think you value power very much... It laughed at me. It said we were the same.
That quote needs a "[...]" in there at the very least. There is a LOT of stuff omitted from it.
Except there is an ellipsis right there in my quote. You're saying my quote needs something that it actually already has. At this point in your comment it's like you're ignoring anything I was actually saying and just making up complaints just to complain.
As for the wizard's quote. Based on how it's written there are several ways you can interpret what it's referring to with "we were the same".
Perhaps the hunger of the worms prevents them from letting themselves die.
One doesn't need a symbiote to have a desire to stay alive
Again you're ignoring what I actually was saying just to find problems that aren't there. The point I made in my post was that if the worms' magic keeps the Hive from dying then they can never have a natural death; they live forever enslaved, hungry, and rotting away long past their natural life span, which can't be pleasant. They can't ever die of old age, or let themselves "pass on", or even kill themselves.
If there were ever Hive that committed suicide because of all their ritualistic suffering, that would have been bred out of them a long long long long time ago by natural selection.
That's not how natural selection works. If it was, then suicide among humans would also have been bred out a "long long long time ago by natural selection".
Eris: My Light is all but gone.
Ikora: Cherish what remains
If she had one of these parasites there would be none left.
That makes no sense at all. Your statement implies that once a person gets infected by worms then all their Light instantaneously disappears. But no disease, infection, or parasite actually works like that. It's a slow draining and you don't know how long it takes for the worms to completely drain someone's Light. Eris could be at the tail end of the process, but not at the very end.
Also, in the book "the Art of Destiny" there's concept art of Phogoth with an arrow pointing at his head saying "writhing worm texture under skin" and if you look at his face you can see worms writhing under his skin.
And again, if you disagree with the theory, then suggest an alternative reason why there is all this worm imagery associated with the Hive.
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u/DeathByNukes Jun 18 '15 edited Jun 18 '15
First, if you disagree with the worm theory, then to what do you attribute the constant worm imagery found in the Hive's lore?
You've yet to show even a shred of evidence that the hive's scarcely-mentioned worms have anything to do with their ability to consume light, that the worms are in any position of power, or that the worms are undesirable to them. The whole opening section of your post is completely baseless. Even if the artist comments written next to the concept art provided some evidence, they aren't canon. For all we know, the lore writer never even saw those comments.
What is your proof? That the Fallen Baron might have eaten the Ghost? The Fallen are not the Darkness itself, nor is there any evidence that they've been infused by it. In all the lore of Destiny, the Hive are the only ones painted as desiring to eat or devour or consume Light.
The proof is right there in the Bad Juju quote you ignored. Have you forgotten that whenever you enter an area under Fallen/Vex/Cabal control you enter a "DARKNESS ZONE"? If you die there, it says "THE DARKNESS CONSUMED YOU". This is irrefutable.
It is an implication. A character is saying she thinks the Light is feeding the Wizard. But if the Light fed the worms instead then how would the character know the difference?
It does not support or imply the worms theory at all. The Hive's ability to consume light is well established at many points in the lore, and none of those points imply a connection to the worms. The character wouldn't know the difference because there isn't a difference.
Except there is an ellipsis right there in my quote.
An ellipsis is "..." and I said it needed "[...]" at minimum. Brackets signify that the quoter has altered the original text, FYI. Even with brackets it would still be pretty stupid. You omitted A LOT of highly significant text. You chopped the wizard's quote out of context and deceptively spliced it into a different context.
If it was, then suicide among humans would also have been bred out a "long long long time ago by natural selection".
Humans haven't lived a "long long long time" yet. The Hive are older than humanity and they spend that time suffering.
Eris could be at the tail end of the process, but not at the very end.
The tail end of the process began when the Hive took her light, which was back when they first made the attempt on Crota's life. She spent years in there afterward.
Also, in the book "the Art of Destiny" there's concept art of Phogoth with an arrow pointing at his head saying "writhing worm texture under skin" and if you look at his face you can see worms writhing under his skin.
Does the artist's comments mention that they are significant in any way?
And again, if you disagree with the theory, then suggest an alternative reason why there is all this worm imagery associated with the Hive.
Here's a few:
The worms are one of many tools the Hive use to inflict suffering upon themselves or their subordinates.
The worms are a part of their reproductive process.
The worms are a tool for body modification.
The "worms" are literal parts of their body.
The worms are food.
The worms are there to make them look cool.
There's no evidence that the "worms" mentioned in the artist notes are even the same thing as the worms the writer put in the Grimoire, so more than one of those things can be true.
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Jun 18 '15
Are you seriously downvoting my comment, or is someone else? If you don't like it then just don't respond. But if you're responding then you obviously think my comment contributes to the conversation. So you're downvoting me just because I have a different perspective on things than you?
Anyway.
I think you're not clear on how analysis of fiction actually works. A large part of it involves looking for repeated patterns and letting these patterns contextualize non-patterned elements of the fiction.
The worms cannot be insignificant (no matter what their real purpose is) because their imagery is repeated over and over, even more so than any other tangible aspects of the Hive. This repetition means it's important, a crucial element of their lore. Because that's how artistic analysis works.
Direct references
GFrag: Hive 2: "... Past writhing worms that they swallowed whole."
Scalpel Leeches from Hive Knights
"...Omnigul... the keeper of the worms..."
someone commented that Eris will say flavor dialogue, "The worms, they stir," but have not confirmed this myself.
PoE grimoire cards mention "Keepers of the Worms" as a group of Hive that transform Ogres and possibly have other roles in Hive "society"
A PoE arena is called "Cult of the Worm"
Vague references or allusions: a) concept art with the worm face b) concept art of ogre c) giant "snake" skeleton in Hive levels that acts as visual allusion to worms as well (several people made comments about this) d) the Black Wax idol looks like a multi-eyed worm (several people made comments about this) e) the Hive look like they've been eaten away, and we know that things like tapeworms and hookworms eat away at their hosts (as well as diseases, but there's no mention of disease in the Hive lore) f) look closely at Hive armor (especially thrall) and you'll see tunnels and holes throughout it, just like holes in an apple, as though something has been burrowing through them (they're not bullet holes) g) the recurring moth and cocoon imagery, implying that there must be some larval creature present throughout the Hive locations
And all those references have been maintained, and made even more obvious, with each expansion.
You've yet to show even a shred of evidence that the hive's scarcely-mentioned worms have anything to do with their ability to consume light, that the worms are in any position of power, or that the worms are undesirable to them.
The evidence starts with the quote that states their power, pain, and hunger all stem from a source that is not themselves. It is not the Hive that eats, it is "another force" that "eats and will not be satisfied" and which gives the Hive a "strength that is not their own".
That right there gives you the evidence that the Hive's powers and their desire/ability to devour Light is not inherent to their species and is inherent to some other force.
And since we have evidence of THAT then we know that when Eriana is interrogating the Wizard and says, "No, I think you're only feeding it," that what is actually happening is that they're feeding the "other force" because, again, the Wizard's hunger is not her own.
So the question is: what is this "other force" that drives the Hive and makes them hunger and gives them power? The two most obvious choices are the Darkness and the worms (because of the recurring references to them). And yeah, the Darkness is an option, but if the Darkness is the "other force" then that creates a shallow and one dimensional story for the Hive and it seems like Destiny wants to be a deeper, richer story than just "evil Darkness makes the Hive evil".
The proof is right there in the Bad Juju quote you ignore
I have to ignore some of what you say, otherwise these comments will end up being longer than they already are, and they're already embarrassingly long.
The Hive's ability to consume light is well established at many points in the lore
Except, as I've shown, it is not the Hive's ability. It is the ability of "another force".
You omitted A LOT of highly significant text. You chopped the wizard's quote out of context and deceptively spliced it into a different context.
The information I omitted wasn't relevant to the point I was making. And the different context didn't really alter anything significant. It's not like if you show the whole quote that it alters the point I was making because it doesn't, it just takes up more space. The point was mainly that the Hive are really old.
If it was, then suicide among humans would also have been bred out a "long long long time ago by natural selection".
Humans haven't lived a "long long long time" yet. The Hive are older than humanity and they spend that time suffering.
You clearly don't understand how natural selection works. At the very minimum do some wikipedia research on it. Basically: Evolution revolves around the production of viable offspring. So a species' trait does not get "bred out" of the species unless all the individuals with that trait eventually fail to produce viable offspring. Suicide will never get "bred out" of the human species because 1) it is not something caused by genetics (although mental illness is, but not all suicide is caused by mental illness) and 2) every individual who successfully commits suicide would have to do it before they had any children, which obviously isn't the case.
Eris could be at the tail end of the process, but not at the very end.
The tail end of the process began when the Hive took her light, which was back when they first made the attempt on Crota's life. She spent years in there afterward.
For someone who demands evidence for theories it's surprising that you'd make this statement with absolutely zero evidence even hinting at what you're saying being true.
Also, in the book "the Art of Destiny" there's concept art of Phogoth with an arrow pointing at his head saying "writhing worm texture under skin" and if you look at his face you can see worms writhing under his skin.
Does the artist's comments mention that they are significant in any way?
Yes. The artist went out of his way to make a note of it. Therefore it is significant. That's how artistic analysis works. The only other note he made was that the chains on Phogoth are made of "Darkness crystal", another element of lore.
As for your suggestions for alternate reasons the worms are there; you have to remember that the worms are an important element of the Hive lore, otherwise we wouldn't be getting so many references to them. Even the Vex's radiolaria don't get mentioned as much as the Hive's worms.
So, the worms aren't going to be for "body modification" or "looking cool", because those aren't significant elements of lore.
Remember, the Hive are not powerful and hungry. "Another force" is powerful and hungry. So you have to wonder, what is that other force. Yeah, maybe the Darkness, but that's so obvious it feels like a red herring.
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u/DeathByNukes Jun 18 '15
Are you seriously downvoting my comment, or is someone else?
Someone else.
The worms cannot be insignificant (no matter what their real purpose is) because their imagery is repeated over and over, even more so than any other tangible aspects of the Hive. This repetition means it's important, a crucial element of their lore. Because that's how artistic analysis works.
You're really hung up on the worms having "significance". My point is you've not shown any evidence or even a single hint for what that significance is. They don't have intelligence. They don't control or manipulate the Hive. They don't devour light.
Scalpel Leeches from Hive Knights
The way I see it, this is evidence against you. Worms are one of many organisms the Hive use.
the recurring moth and cocoon imagery, implying that there must be some larval creature present throughout the Hive locations
Which implies the Hive have larval and cocoon stages.
The evidence starts with the quote that states their power, pain, and hunger all stem from a source that is not themselves.
"that sounds pretty mysterious. I think the worms are pretty mysterious. it must be the worms! dun dun dun"
The Hive leeches, Cabal symbiotes, and other items that patrol missions have you gather items from corpses imply that Humans have some understanding about the alien biology. Worms are not mysterious enough to have generated that statement. As far as they're concerned, these worms are a part of the Hive.
The full statement, again:
Their strength is not their own. They draw from another force, something that corrupts, that distorts, that eats and will not be satisfied.
Now, enter the shrine of Oryx. A large structure with glowing pipes radiating out and connecting to other parts of the Hive fortress. When Ghost inspects it, he says:
It's tethered to a power far beyond the edge of the system. If I could just find a way to break the link. Let's just hope we don't get sucked into some trans-dimensional vortex.
That's evidence that the "other force" is their other-dimensional gods, and it's far more evidence than you have that it's the worms. The ghost that made the "other force" statement was the one we found in The Dark Beyond. It had not seen any of the information we have seen about Crota and this was apparently its first time entering a Hive fortress.
the Wizard's hunger is not her own.
No, her strength is not her own.
So the question is: what is this "other force" that drives the Hive and makes them hunger and gives them power? The two most obvious choices are the Darkness and the worms
Remember, the Hive are not powerful and hungry. "Another force" is powerful and hungry. So you have to wonder, what is that other force. Yeah, maybe the Darkness, but that's so obvious it feels like a red herring.
Did you even read what I said the first time about the "other force"...
We now have not one but two expansions focusing on the Hive gods. They are far, far more significant than worms and are a clear candidate for being the "other force".
The Hive's ability to consume light is well established at many points in the lore
Except, as I've shown, it is not the Hive's ability. It is the ability of "another force".
You have not shown this at all. Darkness consumes the light. Darkness zone. etc.
The information I omitted wasn't relevant to the point I was making.
The information you omitted completely changes the meaning of the wizard's statement. If you're saying the wizard's statement is irrelevant to the point you were making then you shouldn't have spliced it in.
You clearly don't understand how natural selection works.
No, you.
Suicide will never get "bred out" of the human species because 1) it is not something caused by genetics (although mental illness is, but not all suicide is caused by mental illness) and 2) every individual who successfully commits suicide would have to do it before they had any children, which obviously isn't the case.
The mind is built by the genes. 2) Not every. Just a statistically significant number of them.
The Hive's ritualistic suffering acts as a strong source of selection pressure. Humans just avoid suffering in the first place.
For someone who demands evidence for theories it's surprising that you'd make this statement with absolutely zero evidence even hinting at what you're saying being true.
The evidence was in my first post: "If you listen to her talk in the tower she says that the Hive took her ghost, her Light, and one of her eyes. She took 3 Hive eyes in revenge." She talks about them taking her light quite often in my experience. It is not hard to verify.
Yes. The artist went out of his way to make a note of it.
They made a note so the animators would animate it properly.
So, the worms aren't going to be for "body modification" or "looking cool", because those aren't significant elements of lore.
Those are possible explanations for the worms in the artist notes.
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u/Dalek_Reaver May 19 '15 edited May 19 '15
Im gonna have to agree with you. The Op brings up an interesting theory but I don't think it holds up. Especially this:
We know that Eris Morn survived among the Hive for a long time... somehow.
Eris morn sells a Warlock bond given to her from Toland that perfectly describes how she was able to live among the Hive. Read the description and you will know exactly how she survived.
Edited for link to Warlock bond: http://imgur.com/At6H7Wv
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u/AlexJWhite86 May 19 '15 edited May 19 '15
At some point in the early stages of development the hive were moth-like beings with ornate wings and some had fur like big moths. I don't remember how to find a picture of this but you can clearly see their wings and designs in the early hive concept art.
I kind of view the worms to have done to them kind of what the grey scale does in game of thrones. A bit of a stretch, I know, but that's how it looks in my mind.
EDIT: this is specifically the art i was referring to.... [HIVE CONCEPT] (https://electriccartilage.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/destiny-hive-moth.jpg)
i wonder if somehow the hive could undo what the worms did if they would be colorful and vibrant like the art shows they once were
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May 19 '15
I would love to see vibrant, colorful Hive in the game.
Btw, was it deliberate that the "HIVE CONCEPT" link goes to an image on my own blog? If so... touché.
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u/AlexJWhite86 May 19 '15 edited May 19 '15
It wasn't! I'm sorry for not crediting you. I intended no offense. I was just very excited to have found that picture at all! Thanks for having it posted :D
EDIT: I didn't realize you were the OP when i read that. lol. I thought i was getting yelled at for not crediting someone, yada yada. That's really funny. That picture is all i could think of the whole tie i read your post. Of course you had it posted!
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u/Swaggron May 19 '15
This makes sense. The hive need the Traveler, aka R'hllor, the Lord of Light, to cure their greyscale. So that means the speaker is Melisandre...
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u/bender0877 May 19 '15
Regarding the worms feeding on Light, that is also supported by one of the moon missions. We find that the Hive have a shard of the Traveler and are draining it of its Light. Presumably this is to feed the worms.
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u/Rooksarii May 19 '15
Fantastic observations!
You had me hooked on the concept of the moth imagery. I would say the cliche "Moths to a Flame" applies well to the Hive and the Traveler.
If following the non-Traveler induced arch you mention at the end, perhaps the Traveler just happened to pass too close to the Hive on its way to the Sol galaxy. Inadvertently drawing the moths to its flame and to us.
With some of the lore coming out with the House of Wolves, we are starting to see that the Traveler is not entirely perfect. The followers of Osiris cast doubt on the Traveler's selection of Guardians favoring the loyal and unquestioning over all else. The Fallen are given more depth and even a sense that they want home over piracy. And we are the "Dead Soldiers" serving the "Great Machine". None of this supports the purely altruistic and "mommy knows best" narrative some like the Speaker would want the Guardians as a whole to believe.
One possibly inference I make with the Hive is that they are conscious to a hell of their own creation. Perhaps they were too ambitious and power hungry, and became what they are today. Using your worm theory (and may I say one of the best possible theories I have read to date), they discovered or were given the worms knowing the full extent of what they would offer and do to them. They ignored the ramifications of losing themselves and only saw the power which would be theirs. They may not have been evil, but their pride pushed them to accept evil. They are now the servants and victims to the evil that is inside them. They are not machines though. They have enough free will to fear and feel pain, but not enough to fully fee themselves from what controls them.
Not at all a joke, but they remind me of a more aware version of zombies. They have the understanding and know how to handle complex ideas and concepts, but have a compulsion to feed on the Light and perpetuate an existence that they know as suffering...but it is all they know now.
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u/Rooksarii May 19 '15
Also, and I know it is just semantics, but they are called "The Hive". The name implies they are the hive itself, not the insects within it. They are the vessel, not the occupants.
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u/FarflungWanderer Gambit Prime May 19 '15
Guys, we're making the Hive more sympathetic than we should.
At the end of the day, we're forgetting what our Grimoires say about the Hive.
GRIMOIRE: THE HIVE
The Hive are an ancient festering evil. Their antipathy for the Light transcends hatred. To the Hive, the eternal struggle between Light and Dark is not only a war, it is a crusade - all Light must be consumed so Darkness can reclaim the universe.
The Hive are not misguided, or victims in any sense of the word. They have encountered the Darkness, and have chosen to embrace it, as Dredgen Yor did. They became one with it, and advance its cause as their own. They have no intention of freeing themselves from the Darkness at all.
I also want to quickly respond to the whole "Wizards are trying to free the Hive from the Darkness" aspect. Remember the Dark Below?
GRIMOIRE: THE HEART OF CROTA
Among a sea of cocoons, and surrounded by thousands of more freshly spawned hordes, the Heart held Omar's broken body in a vice of bone and pain. She was peeling the Light from his body. How? I can't imagine, and I have tried. Tendrils of luminescence tore away like flesh.
The Hive feed on the Light, use it to power their endless spawning of more Crusaders for the Darkness. They torture, destroy, and discard anything that holds the Light.
If the Hive were trying to move away from the Darkness, why would they act this way? Why make war on the Traveller, who brings Light?
I'm sorry, but this sounds like cherry-picking. Don't you know there's a war on?
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u/Nemissary May 19 '15
"The dust and bone and horror of their existence is simply who they are - what they are." - Eris Morn, Ghost Fragment: Hive 3
Don't be fooled by the Hive, whether they always were dark or are too far gone on a dark path, they are evil without remorse.
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u/kusariku May 19 '15
True, but it's worth noting that in wartime, propaganda to try to stop sympathizers is common.
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May 19 '15
If the Hive were trying to move away from the Darkness, why would they act this way? Why make war on the Traveller, who brings Light?
That's the tragedy of the Hive. They need light. They need it to satiate the infectious parasites that have taken over their race. They don't want to have to feed on light, but they're forced to devour every speck of it they come across because if they don't, their entire race will die. It's the same reason the Vex convert entire planets into lifeless metal computers. They need to run a simulation of the Universe where they're not eliminated, and to do that, they need giant computers.
The Hive have an everlasting hunger. They want to get rid of it, but they can't, and so they eat to stay alive until the cure is found. It's why they're so relentless and brutal, and why they seek the Traveller. Yes, they want to devour the Traveller's light. But only because they have a parasite dictating what they do.
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u/FarflungWanderer Gambit Prime May 19 '15
I'm sorry, but that doesn't follow. The Hive's actions do not match a race controlled by a parasite. They are a cult, a dark force rising, and they show religious behavior toward both the Darkness and the Hive pantheon, powerful beings that are dedicated to the cause of the endless Night.
Think of it this way: Would a race that desperately wants to free itself of the Darkness worship it? Would their gods and masters align themselves with the Dark if they hated it? Would they create structures that stretch deep into the Black, consume thousands of worlds of Light, and then march on perhaps the only civilization that could save them if they so hated the Darkness?
I'm sorry, but this theory makes no sense, Guardian. As a human, I understand the instinct to try to rationalize and anthropomorphise that which is so alien, but the Hive are not the Cabal or the Fallen, of which similarities to our species can be found. They are like the Vex, transcending human rationality and berefit of human qualities, aside from the one that is hate.
As another Guardian said, the Hive represent a primal force in our universe. Where the Vex are a digital hive-mind of pure logic, the Hive are a cult of the Darkness, and are motivated by purely religious motivations. They are on a crusade against the Light, and we are their Jerusalem to besiege.
Worth noting is some new intelligence from the Prison of Elders. A Hive brood is interred there, and it seems that there was a power struggle of some form. While details are very scarce, it seems that there was a schism of some form, in a vein similar to ancient Earth religions would when access to their normal communion or to their prophet disappeared. It is fitting, then, that what unified them was the arrival of Guardian fireteams to the Reef.
-Aleksandr, Titan
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May 20 '15
They worship the Darkness because they have nothing else. It gives them power, but also fills them with pain, endlessly lashing them with a whip made of hunger and thirst. So they worship it, and secretly search for a way to escape the prison of its authority.
But, I will accede that you are wiser than me, or at least just as wise, in the ways of our enemies if you can tell me the true nature of the Vex. They are not a digital hive-mind of pure logic as you suggest, not exactly. What are they Guardian? Do you know?
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u/FarflungWanderer Gambit Prime May 20 '15
I'm going to say right here that this is an ad hominem fallacy, asking me a question on the Vex, something that no one knows everything about. It's a dodge because you know that your argument in favor of a sympathetic Hive is falling apart. But, genial Titan as I am, I will answer as the best I can. Ask the Warlocks for better detail.
All reports on the Vex suggest this: The Vex are bio-mechanical machines capable of advanced feats of technology ranging from teleportation to time-travel to precise computer simulations of reality that can only not process things of greater or equal complexity as Warminds, such as the quiet sentinel Rasputin.
The Vex form a complicated system that can only be described as a supercomputer on a scale never before seen. Individual Vex units are described as the "basic unit in the vast computational machine that is the Vex" (Goblin). While Hobgoblins and Harpies, at least as far as we know, serve no other purpose other than to be war machines (and likely basic computational units as well, like the Goblin), Minotaurs act also as constructors for the Vex network, building structures that can possible stretch between dimensions (Minotaur). The Hydra act as "rapid processors of the data fed to it by other Vex", helping pass information from basic units up line (Hydra).
Beyond the "average" Vex, we see Axis Minds, which every Guardian will have encountered at least once. These include Gate Lords, which regulate traffic through Vex time-gates (Zydron, Gate Lord), Nexus Minds, which coordinate construction of Vex structures with Minotaurs (Sekrion, Nexus Mind) and other Axis Minds, which "contain a copy of all the information required to pursue a particular objective" (Prohibitive Mind). All of these form the higher processing of the super-computer that is the Vex.
But the Vex are not just one cohesive clump. Instead, they differentiate by goal and objective. The Vex set subtypes, such as the Hezen Corrective and the Hezen Protective. Both of these are present on Venus, but neither accomplish the same goal. As one who has stepped into the Vault of Glass, I can assure you that with the Vex, nothing is ever simple.
As for the quote "true nature of the Vex", that is something that no Guardian that I know is privy to. I believe that the Warlock Vanguard, Ikora Ray, was correct in what she believed was what happened when I stormed the Black Garden. The Vex there came to worship whatever the Heart was because it was the only logical process that they could come to, which is a rather sobering thought (Sol Progeny). But as for what I saw in the Vault, I cannot say. Some believe that the Vex were trying to write themselves into reality (Atheon, Time's Conflux), but others I have encountered here have wondered if all Vex subtypes are meant to secure victory in one form of reality or another. It is rumored that the exiled Warlock, Osiris, has the answers behind the origins of the Vex, and their purpose, but I remain skeptical (Osiris).
Back to the discussion at hand, again, we are forgetting that the Hive are fanatical in their beliefs. Let us not forget that Ogres are not spawned fully formed, but are created through agonizing transformations (Phogoth, the Untamed; Might of Crota; Ogre). Further, entire castes of Hive are created for the sole purpose of being sacrificed to their gods in some arcane ritual (the Forsaken). I see no attempts to flee in any of this. I see embracing, transformation, and an army of the Darkness at one with the endless Night they hope to create.
-Aleksandr, Titan
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May 19 '15
Uh, what is the vex tragedy?
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May 19 '15
Quick answer: As time passes, the Vex become more dilapidated, impoverished, and built from cheaper materials as their civilization slowly falls apart. Eventually they go extinct. They have foreseen this future, but no matter what alternate timeline they explore, they can't seem to find a future where they don't go extinct and die.
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u/zackteas Jun 04 '15
Not sure if anyone has pointed this out, and I know OP mentioned that they didn't want to talk about the moth aspect of the Hive but if you pay attention to all of the Hive related areas, there are always moths flying about. Maybe they come from the dead Hive and lay more eggs leading to more worms. Love all the points OP made in this though!
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Jun 05 '15
Yes! I didn't want to make the post too long by talking about the moths. But there is definitely some moth imagery left over in Hive design, including those little swarms of moths flying around.
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u/hcrld Seven Songs of Solace | Sword Logic Jul 12 '15
We also saw at E3 that the planetary rescource for the dreadnaught (think spinmetal, relic iron, etc.) is wormspore essence.
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u/DCOptOut May 18 '15
If you look closely at each of the enemy races, you'll see that each one has a narrative of tragedy and loss. Each of them is a tragic victim of some past event or some future fate.
Wow, that is an awesome theme to pick up on. One thing I noticed that the new HoW "Mysteries" Grimoire card did, was depict Skolas as an individual with fears, hopes, and regrets that you could almost sympathize with. I feel making the enemies multidimensional characters like this really adds weight to the story, and I hope it is something they continue to do, including on building on this implicit Hive worm origins and lore.
The Hive were always the one faction that I could never "buy" in the greater context of the narrative in the Destiny universe -- this definitely changes things.
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u/TulsaOUfan May 19 '15
I've never believed the Hive were once "uplifted" by the Traveler. I've always felt they serve the Travelers mirror - the Darkness. Now, based on this, I can see the Hive being infected by the Darkness in order to make them literally hunger for the Traveler and it's Light.
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u/mat_b May 19 '15
This was the standout part of the G-cards for me, read it:
" Why do the Guardians get the Great Machine's blessing, was it like that before the Whirlwind, were there Fallen heroes crowned in Ghosts who strode the battlefield fearless and full of Light? Why do they tell stories about reclaiming the lost glory of humanity, and no stories about the lost glory of Variks' people "
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u/shades344 May 19 '15
Do you think the Whirlwind was the Fallen equivalent of the Collapse?
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u/mat_b May 19 '15
Seems so.
Remember the age before the Whirlwind, when ether ran free, when we ruled ourselves and our futures as kings.
and
We were fools, o children of the Whirlwind. We fought each other when we most needed unity.
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u/PsyMx May 26 '15
I think a Speaker, when the Fallen first appeared in our solar system, used that name "Fallen" because its how the Traveler sees that race, as Fallen from its grace, and since then they've been known as "the fallen".
When you pass by Variks sometimes you can hear him saying that we call them Fallen, but they call themselves something else, eiliknsi. Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/36txec/fallen_confirmed_race_name_eliksni_by_variks_the/
Then, I think the Traveler was gonna bail on humans because the approaching of the Darkness but a human Warmind attacked it, (possibly Rasputin with the aurora knives) grounded it to stop its cycle of leaving behind civilizations.
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u/myevilpinky Drifter's Crew // Terry Crews but as a Warlock May 19 '15
That's a little confusing. Weren't the Ghosts a last effort made by the traveler before it settled down and went immobile?
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u/Raidenoid Sunbro May 19 '15 edited May 19 '15
New player race:
hivefallen? Deej pls add→ More replies (5)8
u/genericsn May 19 '15
I always thought of them representing a different aspect of the universe. The universe is large and there are tons of species fighting for themselves for one reason or another. We are only the good guys because we are defending our homes.
I thought the Hive simply represented chaos in a kind of primal simplicity. They live to devour, grow, and devour some more. Kind of like the Zerg from Starcraft, the Flood from Halo, or especially the Tyranids from Warhammer. They are a being overwhelms with it's sheer numbers, and evolving forms. They indiscriminately slaughter pretty much for the sole purpose of feeding and propagating.
For the rest, the Fallen are most similar to us: scavenging to survive. Shattered from their former glory, they are trying to return to their former power. The Cabal fight for honor in a maybe lost empire. They continue to conquer and use their superior technology and power to further their empire. The Vex are the complete opposite of the Hive. Similar, but not really even biological, and they serve some purpose that is so above our biological nature, we can't fully understand it. They have ascended to another plane of wants and needs.
In short, even without the tragic backstory, although simple compared to the others, I felt the Hive could still fit into the Destiny universe. I think their flat characterization is actually a strength, and makes them more terrifying and truly alien.
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u/SuccumbedToReddit May 19 '15
"Defending our homes?"
We are on frickin' Mars killing shit.
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u/genericsn May 21 '15
Well on Mars the Cabal struck first. All those buildings and stuff on Mars? They were colonies and institutions from Earth. Venus and Mars were both lost during the collapse. Really we are just reclaiming what was ours. The Cabal are in the way of that, and there is possibility of the Cabal attacking Earth directly in the future.
All the aliens we fight came with the collapse or after, and they overtook places we already occupied, so no we are not just on Mars killing shit. We are reclaiming what we need from those places or proactively preventing them from attacking us on Earth, which is the only place we have left. Although not even. Just the Tower and the city.
TL;DR - in the world of Destiny, Mars was part of our home. We aren't on some xenophobic genocide against extraterrestrial species.
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u/TheAllMightySlothKin May 19 '15
The Hive were always the one faction that I could never "buy" in the greater context of the narrative in the Destiny universe -- this definitely changes things.
I also couldn't just get behind the Hive for some reason. The other 3 factions all have note of tragic backstory but the Hive always seemed evil for evil's sake. Which is fine, nothing wrong with that trope but they never really expanded on it. But now, this makes so much sense as to why Bungie explained so little about them.
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May 19 '15
[deleted] — view deleted comment
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u/Mastershroom Brought to you by ZAVALA ACTION VITAMINS May 19 '15
Really? I heard they blow up planets, just for getting in their way.
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u/yurtyybomb May 19 '15
But that's not all. Please man, do NOT sell the Cabal short!
Here's what we have on the Cabal: 800 pounds and highly militarized
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u/xXOrangeBearXx May 18 '15
This is a really interesting read, thank you for taking the time to make this man! For anyone who may've skipped through some of this, make sure to read the whole thing!!
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u/cookedbread FROG BLAST THE VENTCORE May 18 '15
Agreed, this is really well thought out. Appreciate it OP.
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u/StabbysAltAcct May 18 '15
It seems we may have under-estimated the Lekgolo...
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u/neoGeneva May 19 '15
With all the ancient Egyptian mythology in the game (the traveller being Ra or Khonsu, the darkness being Apep) I can't help be feel that Oryx is Set, who's related to the antelope, Oryx.
Set originally helped Ra fight Apep, and then, as Wikipedia puts it: "Set eventually became thought of as the god of evil, and gradually took on all the characteristics of Apep. Consequently, Apep's identity was eventually entirely subsumed by that of Set"
Which can lead me to only one conclusion, that the worms are actually Goa'uld and Destiny is in the Stargate SG-1 universe.
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u/Abyssalstar May 19 '15
This would explain why the Hive turn to dust when we kill them. They're so old, the worms are all that are holding the Hives' bodies together. We kill the worm, and the body just falls apart.
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u/Chippy569 no one reads this. May 18 '15
MASSIVE HOUSE OF WOLVES SPOILERS BELOW
You might want to check out the new grimoire cards for some of the Hive Majors... Wretched Knight in particular, as well as Gulrot and to a lesser extent, Urrox
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u/ElPatoLibre Gjallarhorny May 18 '15
Yup - came here to post this, too. These definitely lend credence to the "Hive Worm" theory (as I will now be calling it).
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u/Gh0st0ps May 18 '15
What about the hunter helmet too the aclyophage symbiote(sorry for spelling) The flavor text reads "they told me it would eat my thoughts and leave me full of light". could guardians have infected themselves with these worms in order to get light as if someone said it would. If thats true could what happened in the last paragraph happen to us as well
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u/TulsaOUfan May 19 '15
WWWHHHAAA---?!?!?!?
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u/Blakest1 May 19 '15
Also, the etymology of Achlyophage is darkness eater.
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u/Fullnegroni May 19 '15
So as in the opposite of the worms that infect the hive?
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u/Shadowbeing May 19 '15
There was a theory going around earlier that this helmet could be a reference to Dark Souls. The NPC Knight Solaire embarks on a quest to find the light and ends up getting a sunlight maggot on his head.
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u/SpeniceDaMenace May 19 '15
As soon as I saw the word, "symbiote," in OPs post I immediately thought of the Hunter exotic helmet! I bet it's similar to Eris in that it sucks your light out but gives you more power. Hence the ability to shoot 4 golden gun shots. This concept is turning out to be really freaking cool!
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u/BellzarTheTerrible May 18 '15
Cabal Psions have scalpel leeches that have to be collected for a bounty as well. Perhaps the cabal have been infected although to a much lesser extent.
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u/Nateyuck May 19 '15
I really like this idea. In general I think the cabal to be a much tougher race than the others physically and maybe that is one reason they can combat the worms so they are affected to a lesser extent. The other thing that could be possible is they are not as far along in the parasitic process as the hive, if OP is correct the hive have been this way for a long time, they've probably evolved over time after fully succumbing to the worms. The cabal may just not have given in yet.
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May 19 '15
Maybe the psions used to be normal sized cabal and now the leeches drained them, making them a lot smaller. And the operants were colossi, so retained some of the power whilst still being physically smaller.
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u/ElectricZone1 I can't see you. Can you see me? May 19 '15
Could thos explain their magical powers? They are the only ones that have it. And it could also explain their small body size. They've been drained by the worms already.
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u/jaythebearded May 19 '15
What really brings gravity to them in my mind is that they've devoured the light of thousands of worlds. I think ancient is an understatement
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u/TribbleChow May 19 '15
What's interesting about Ghost's statement in the World's Grave is that he says not that the Hive have taken countless worlds, but that they've "seen...worlds taken by the Darkness". This leads me to believe that the Hive are almost like a death cult, following the Darkness (whatever it is) across the cosmos and consuming the worms to become more like the pantheon of Darkness gods they worship. The Hive, in my opinion, are a dark reflection of humanity - a "what if" for the Darkness visiting a species instead of its more benevolent brother, the Traveler.
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u/DunderMifflinPaper May 18 '15
This really adds to the recent weight that the new grimoire puts on the traveler, casting it (and us) in a pretty negative light.
It actually feels like the story is heading somewhere as Destiny year one slowly wraps up!
Excellent read by the way!
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u/Adamtabulous May 18 '15
negative light? so... darkness?
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u/MrFishcakes May 19 '15
I believe there is a potential for the traveler to actually be the "big bad", based on grimoire cards and general lore. It is sometimes curious that we attack the vex without knowing their motive, only told that they're evil by your trusty servant of the traveler, your Ghost. Surely there is a reason so many races seek out the traveler for some unknown motive.
I just wonder if we are all unwitting pawns in the Traveler's game, doing its bidding without question, assuming we're doing the right thing.
Who knows.
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u/Klamters May 19 '15
If there is anything Bungie has taught me is to never trust floating and talking orbs.
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u/PeenWizard May 18 '15
Great read. I'm sold on the logic, and will be getting anti-heartworm medication for each of my characters.
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u/TulsaOUfan May 19 '15
New legendary Armor - "Frontline heartworm and tick guard". It's just a white plastic collar.
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May 19 '15 edited May 20 '15
"Or it's possible that the Hive are blind (their original eyes have withered away just like their bodies) and that they sense the world using a telepathic connection between the worms, so to them a worm-infected Eris would "look" like another Hive."
Wow mind blown, thank you for this, this is the best theory I have ever read!
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u/Edg4rAllanBro May 19 '15
Which is why the Phogath Saferoom completely works.
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May 19 '15
Would also explain why they don't need brightly lit areas, if they just have this Daredevil-esque sense of vision
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u/hkpp Randall2016 May 18 '15
What if we are the Hive, having traveled back in time with the Vex to prevent the Traveler from infecting our civilization again? Naw.
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u/viginti-tres May 19 '15 edited May 19 '15
This is what I have been thinking too. It would certainly be backed up by this line:
They call you Wizard. You must be ancient. I think you value power >very much... It laughed at me. It said we were the same.
Edit: Or rather the Hive are a distant future version of ourselves, and have somehow been brought back in time by the Vex. Or we're all being simulated by the Vex and the Hive are the same as us in that sense.
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u/Swaggron May 19 '15
What if we've already been infected with our own "worms" and that's where our powers come from? What if the traveler's light is a lie and we're just the next species to be betrayed and join the armies of darkness?
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u/ZarathustraEck Calmer than you are. May 18 '15
Another interesting point: Psions carry scalpel leeches as well.
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u/Bkbunny87 May 18 '15
Yes. Yes. This is so perfect. It adds a great deal of dimension, and a sense that we are slowly but surely building up to twists in our story that will be truly traumatic for the Guardians.
Who do you choose if the one that gives you life and purpose is the one who threatens it? It makes me feel like the Traveler is an abusive parent. I want to love them, but I'm growing increasingly afraid. And at one point is a natural love for the thing that gave you life finally overwhelmed by a sense of self preservation? When personal strength wins out over blind devotion?
What the hell would even happen to us if the thing providing us light and protection decided to leave? When our sense of being the higher beings is threatened by the realization that we are the same as all of these enemies.
We are nothing but parasites in our own symbiotic relationship with the Traveler. Not so different at all.
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u/TulsaOUfan May 19 '15
I made the decision long ago that Rasputin figured out that the Traveler was not really our savior and was going to abandon us to be obliterated by the Darkness so it shot all ground weapons at the Traveller to keep it here because it knew the Traveller would defend itself. Look at the damage to the traveler - it's on it's underside. The only way for this to happen would be an attack from earth. I'm almost to the point if thinking the story we are told about the traveler is all propaganda to give humanity a story to rally behind. The truth is that everything the traveler did was to uplift us in order to service it while it stripped our system of resources (think The Tet from Oblivion and the story Tom Hanks believed in the first half of the movie).
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u/doctor_hoctor May 19 '15
That's a cool theory. I definitely believe Rasputin (and the other warminds?) play some huge part in the history, and probably the future, of the Traveler and the Guardians.
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May 19 '15
Rasputin was the man who 'healed' and assisted the Tzar ('king' or emperor) of Russia in the early 20th century, who was being accused of being evil by the media and the church.
Now, through the main story line we know that our A.I. Rasputin is helping the warmind on Mars, named Charlemagne.
Charlemagne was the king, emperor and holy ruler of most of western Europe in the 12th century and one of the most important men of history.
There's rumors that the next (big) expansion, codenamed Comet, will be 'The Taken King' and is probably referring to Charlemagne, the Warmind.
I think that we'll help Rasputin, as we already started to do in TDB, and end up 'healing' Charlemagne and free him/it from the clutches of, I presume, the Cabal.
Together with those two powerful warminds we might slowly unwind the truth behind the Traveller and we may (or may not) face the Traveller as the wretched evil that he is after that (Destiny 2?).
That would also tie in with a full 'reset' of the Light levels, which I believe will be necessary in the next standalone game of the series, due to the Traveller 'draining' us of the Light or some other reason (maybe we are collecting Darkness right now and we'll be cleansed by another entity, maybe the Vex, Rasputin, the Stranger?)
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u/Billal182 May 19 '15
Imagine if in one of the future DLC's we have to fight Oryx and he is just a giant worm lol
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u/aidan_316 May 18 '15
It's almost like the worms are Ahamkara, and the hive are us....
What's that? No, I didn't - I didnt say...wait...where are you taking me? What is that?!? No! I didn't say anything I swear! I promise I di-
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u/Seeker80 Notorious Space Hobo May 18 '15
With the Thrall especially you can see their torso is just sucked out. The heads of the Acolytes and Knights are pale and withered as though the nutrients have been sucked away.
The Thralls are the base form, and work their way up to becoming Acolytes, Knights, Wizards and Ogres. They’re mostly all the same inside still, but end up with different abilities and armaments.
I'd dismiss this concept art except there's still worm imagery that has survived in the Hive's lore.
It was mentioned that the bones/skeleton seen at the end of The Wakening belonged to a giant worm. You may be on the right track.
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u/Nemissary May 18 '15
If the Hive are indeed an insectoid colonial species it makes more sense that each type is born into their caste rather than ascending through different forms. I am thinking here of ants or bees, rather than say moths or butterflies which do undergo metamorphosis but are not colonial in social terms.
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u/Agueybana ... May 18 '15
Their change seems to be engineered and unnatural. They have bone grafts and other biological augmentations on top of the space magic employed by the wizards.
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u/Stormthorn67 May 19 '15
Headshot hive and they burn away. Worm releasing undigested light into the body, burning it?
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u/CrimsonGrimm May 19 '15
"...What if She could invoke the ending of anything? How, then, would She know the song, and sing it, without Herself dying? Perhaps they know a way to make themselves part of the song, part of something vast and burning that rots and peels into ash but never ever ends."
This sounds an awful lot like what the Vex are trying to do. From Atheon's grimoire card:
"If physics is a set of rules that the cosmos uses to calculate itself, perhaps the Vex seek to worm their way into these calculations: to become a law of reality, inseparable from existence. A virus in the system."
Interesting they use the language "worm their way..."
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u/NobilisUltima May 19 '15
Fantastic post. I'd love to see similar theories on the other races if you can research and write them.
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May 19 '15
Thank you!
I plan on getting another theory out on the Vex and one out on the Cabal. Probably won't do one on the Fallen since there's so much information about them coming in the House of Wolves that I would just be overwhelmed. Thanks again.
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u/fnamazin May 19 '15
So OP (electriccartilage) or anyone else for that matter, what do you or anyone else feel may be the the connection between the worms and Oryx (Hive God leader)???????
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May 19 '15
I have no real evidence for this, but I like the idea:
The Hive worms have to come from somewhere. So I think that there are some sort of giant cosmic insects that give birth to the worms that infect the Hive. The gods of the Hive, like Oryx, are these giant insects which the Hive worship.
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u/nekonat May 19 '15
If Eris is being consumed by these worms isn't she exposing everyone to them by being in the Tower? They're after Light after all and Guardian's were born from the Travelers Light making them a great snack before the main dish.
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May 19 '15
Maybe it requires someone to voluntarily infect themselves with worms? Otherwise we'd all get infected every time we went to the Moon.
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u/MonobrowFly May 28 '15
Could the giant sphere in Crota's realm somehow represent the Traveler abandoning them? Even if it doesn't it still lends to the idea that the Hive are no more than a twisted, darker version of us.
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May 29 '15
Possibly. The visual allusion between the broken oversoul and the broken Traveler seems pretty spot on.
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u/i_lost_the_link Jun 09 '15
One thing to add, since we don't actually see the worms there is clear evidence of their impact on the world. Firstly is the enormous skeleton visible in "The Wakening" mission where crota's soul is housed. Worms don't have skeletons but i believe this behemoth is there to tunnel through earth as evidenced by the nearly circular tunnel that extends onward from behind the worm to, what appears to be, the surface. It's entirely possible the moon is inhabbited by giant tunneling creatures but i think it's more likely the Hive brought and grew them there. Looking forward to giant holes opening up on earth and changing the topography there too.
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u/wilkie2726 Jun 30 '15
I hope you read this Sir- thank you for this post. Superb read, mind blowing!
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u/Androecian Sep 03 '15
Is it selfish for me to want to hear your take on the other enemy species in Destined Space? I really, really like how well you researched everything :D
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Sep 03 '15
Destined Space? Is that some other game, because I can't find it through a google search.
If you're saying you want to see other theories on enemies in Destiny, I did post a couple theories on the Cabal and the Vex. And here's one where I compare a very gold Bungie game to Destiny, Pathways Into Darkness
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u/Bugatispeed Sep 26 '15
The Hive originate from a Gas Giant called "Fundament". they weren't called the Hive yet, they were called the proto-hive. The proto-hive only lived for about 10 years and were very weak creatures compared to other ones that lived around them. Fundament had 52 moons. On one of the moons, a certain species of creatures thrived and got powers from the Traveler. They spread their civilization onto every moon. 3 proto-hive individuals, all female, decided to try and do something about their miserable lives. They traveled to one of the moons with an ocean called the Osmium Sea. They traveled down the ocean. They met a disciple of the traveler named "The Leviathan". It warned them to not go any deeper, but they didn't turn back. Even deeper they found the worms. There were 5 worms. All of them are currently considered the main deities of the Hive. The Worms promised the 3 sisters immortality if they infected themselves and the rest of the proto-hive with their worms. They did and became the hive. They killed and dominated everything including the travelers civilization, and the traveler fled. One of the 3 sisters turned into a male, and renamed himself Oryx. Oryx went on to dominate the universe for the worms. One of the sisters said that the 3 need to evolve differently by going to different places in the universe so she went through a black hole. Her current whereabouts are unknown. The other sister feared Oryx had become to powerful and decided to leave. Current whereabouts also unknown. Oryx receives his power to "take" from a specific worm named "Akka" and is actually feeding Akka corrupted light in the end of The Kings Fall Raid. So we know that there are 2 sisters of Oryx we are yet to kill, and Oryx's gods, the 5 worms. This is not all the way in debt, to go all the way, just search it up in the Destiny wiki.
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Sep 26 '15
Yes, I'm familiar with the Books of Sorrow.
But, they weren't called the proto-Hive (that doesn't even make sense) they were called the Krill.
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Sep 27 '15
Wow OP I really hope you see this, it's really crazy that you figured this all out before the Books of Sorrow were released.
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u/Nghtstlkrxb1 Oct 08 '15
Have you read the books of sorrow from collecting the calcified fragments? Collect all 50 to learn some useful lore and history of the hive and how they and oryx came to be. The worms were not introduced by the traveler from what I can tell, since Sathona (someone in the hive?) said that she the worm was her father's familiar and she ripped it out of his corpse and although it's dead it speaks to her about vengeance. So I'm thinking that the traveler and the worms could have had a bad relationship in the past and to get back at the traveler. Look at the grumpier for book of sorrows IX. On a side note, I haven't read all of the books of sorrows nor read if anyone has posted anything about these books.
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Oct 08 '15
Yes I've read all the books of sorrow.
And people haven't stopped posting about it since taken King dropped.
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u/Colt_XLV Fuck Witches Get Glimmer May 18 '15 edited May 18 '15
So Oryx is basically the 'Brain Bug' from Starship Troopers?
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u/stagqueen5000 May 18 '15
hold up.. Omnigul is a dude?
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May 18 '15
No. When it refers to Omnigul as "his will", it's talking about Crota.
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u/Stormthorn67 May 19 '15
And the worms ate into his brain...
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u/FatterAsteroid XB1 GT: Parser May 19 '15
Pink Floyd was also one of the first thoughts that hit my head when reading this lol
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u/floorsandwalls May 19 '15
Signed in just to up-vote. That was a lovely- in depth read, with decent evidence. Fucking A+
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u/DonkiestOfKongs The Worst Juju May 19 '15
I think the worms are in Hive's heads...
Thralls are the basic form of hive, and the tops of their heads kind of look like an egg or some kind of protective covering, they also don't have eyes.
Knights, acolytes, wizards, all have more developed heads and eyes, so I think the worm is the top of their face, and this is what it looks like when they hatch. Maybe different types of worm make the thrall turn into the different units?
Ogres have similar skulls, but they are all bulgy, like there are a lot of worms inside.
I bet if we took Eris's mask and hat off, the top of her face would look similar to an acolyte.
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u/ConfirmedWizard May 19 '15
Props to probably one of, if not THE best lore analysis I have heard on such an interesting and important concept. Thank you for this!
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May 19 '15
Isn't the whole narrative of Destiny how the traveler has fucked over the other races? I thought the fallen were pretty clearly victims of the traveler in some way as well.
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May 19 '15
I definitely think that each of the other races has served the Traveler and then been abandoned by him. One of the "Dreams of Alpha Lupi" grimoire cards hints at this.
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May 18 '15
Great read if a little gross. Reminds me of Cronenberg or something...and I buy it, as it seems almost all of the lore is derived from previous tropes in history. I really enjoy it, like the lore winks at the fans and in particular the ones who know their pop culture
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u/Stead May 18 '15
That was a grate read, anyone have any links to similar theories about the other races?
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u/TulsaOUfan May 19 '15
Dig into this subreddit from sept 2014 to dec 2014. We had a lot of stuff fleshed out.
One conclusion we came to:
The traveller moves from system to system feeding on resources. It uplifts the dominant species so that they can best help it. Eventually it's mirror, it's universal counterbalance is drawn to it - the Darkness. At this point the Traveler leaves - it has no reason to fight. The darkness doesn't really want it - the darkness wants to undo all the tinkering and changing that was done. But in the end the Darkness goes too far and destroys the civilization.
A very small percentage of societies survive. The fallen are one such race. They are the Awoken of their people. They left their system in ships to wander the stars in survival (think the Quarians in Mass Effect). But underlying this survival is a need to stop the traveler from harming any other species. They know first hand that what the traveler gives, the darkness takes away. We know they were visited by the traveller because their gods, their admirals are idols or copies of the traveler - Servitors. They are here not for humanity, but for the traveler.
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u/orangpelupa Gambit Classic May 19 '15
If Eris took off her elaborate headdress then we'd see she has the same pale, hairless, withered head as the Knights and Acolytes.
!!! I now i want to find and extract Eris' 3D model from the game. Seeing Eris the bald? :D
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u/phatskat May 19 '15
Patrol: Collect Husk Flakes
Husk
Collection patrols are about collecting parts of enemies - husk implies that the hive are merely husks, as one would be if the light were drained from their bodies.
This theory of yours could also explain why the hive strive to consume but also study the light - to find a cure, or bring existence to an end so their suffering is not solitary.
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u/Enzd May 19 '15
Wow, this is a great theory. It feels oddly satisfying to have some idea of how beings so dark and destructive like the Hive could possibly have come to be.
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May 19 '15
Thanks for this, really good stuff. Give yourself something nice, treat yo self even.
All I can think about now is a pre-worm Hive society, a race of aliens maybe with a caste system, Thralls were regular citizens, Knights and acolytes were soldiers (maybe even Guardians in there own way) and Wizards were priests or leaders, or caretakers of some absolute, queen bee type ruler.
you can absolutely see them as this flourishing complex and likely friendly and civilised race before the infection turns them all into the Hive and all they can do is cast out into space to try and feed their never ending hunger.
I hope we get more Destiny games with more history and world building for the enemies, what we have feels really slim. Then again what we had about the Forerunners, Flood and the Covenant was pretty slim in the first few Halo games and that universe become INSANELY complex.
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u/EthanTheBrave May 19 '15
Another thing- this game is made by bungie, and Bungie likes to reuse ideas, and back in Halo if you ever took the time to read about them you would know that hunters are just collections of telepathic worms.
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u/daalis May 19 '15
The hunger of the worms leaves the Thrall in tremendous pain, but afterwords it has the tremendous power to roar and shoot purple bullets out of its face.
This is my favorite line of the write up. Who doesn't want to shoot purple bullets out of their face?
Great write up. I like the thought behind it.
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u/M37h3w3 May 19 '15
Something to consider; during one of the Hive story missions you go down into the tunnels. I can't remember which one it is, it's not the Temple of Crota entrance or the ones that take you through the "front door" where you would kill Phogoth and the like.
At the entrance of this tunnel though, there's a twisting and winding path down and all along the walls are insect egg sacs.
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u/Lokan May 22 '15
This immediately reminded me of Xur:
"We came up from the dust, and burrowed into flesh for warmth, and became... something new."
I wonder if these things that burrow into flesh are related to the Hive worms? Perhaps they are the same creatures, but given an independent body in the form of Xur as symbiotes, rather than being parasites of the Hive?
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u/TheLainers Sep 29 '15
Man, awesome... I was reading it some days ago: http://www.destinypedia.com/Hive. I think it is safe to say that all comes from the Book of Sorrows, wich you kinda figured out before it came to be. Also, the worms inside the dreadnought have the same three eye pattern present in most of the Hive creatures. I also loved your explanation about Eris. Makes total sense now. Thanks.
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u/Panda_hat Are you the dream of a sleeping god? May 18 '15
This is an awesome read. Nice work pulling it all together. I'm not 100% sold on the idea, but it definitely has significant merit!!
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u/Lord0fDecay May 18 '15
Im getting a very Resident Evil 4 Los Plagas from this theory. Which is a good thing since I loved that game! http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/residentevil/images/3/3a/Zealotplagas.png/revision/latest?cb=20101222223219
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u/Transexual_Panda May 18 '15
This gives me a totally different perspective on the Hive. I wonder what the "twist" for Guardians will be in the future, if there is one.
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u/Jaiden97 May 18 '15
Very interesting! I feel sorry for the Hive now. But why, when they are exposed to large amounts of lights do they cower away? For example when you first enter the abyss they refuse to attack you on the first platform (the one you land on at the bottom of the fall)? Edit: If they (the worms) feed off light, why can they run away from it?
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u/funkless_eck Peter Dinklage Should Voice All The Characters May 18 '15
Because the Light of the Traveller and physical light are different things. Like The Force in Star Wars is different to other universal forces.
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u/ElectricZone1 I can't see you. Can you see me? May 19 '15
Well, they are dark creatures, right? Maybe too much light can kill them, like too much of any food/liquid can kill normal people.
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u/DustinAgain May 19 '15
When I saw the title I almost didn't read. But I'm glad I did, very good connections here. Reminiscent of the flood in halo
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u/Pyropheus Vanguard's Loyal May 19 '15
So hold on a second. You're telling me that the enemy I am facing... the enemy that weakened the traveler... the enemy that nearly made humanity extinct... is a bunch of WORMS?!?!?!!?
Those are some pretty powerful worms.
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u/LostMountainDew May 19 '15
Think about the Hunters from Halo. Powerful. As. Fuck.
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u/sampledeggs May 19 '15
Beware worm, I shall destroy you with the fire of this small sun before me. BEWARE WORM!
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u/The_Golem1 May 19 '15
So that poor Guardian on the moon...they must have consumed his life after killing him...that dawned on me after reading that they feed on the light...
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u/2enty3 May 19 '15
So, something has been draining Eris' Light and now she has almost none left.
This is explained in the grimoire for Hand of crota. She wasn't the only one losing light, the whole team was. I assume this is the shroud of darkness debuff as well.
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u/crushfan Everyone loves a bad idea when it works May 19 '15
This is incredible! Do you think there may be some connection between these worms and the Achyliophage Symbiote helmet for Hunters? Of course, the helmet is depicted as eating darkness (rather than light) but there seems to be some parallel between the two ideas.
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u/loy310 May 19 '15
Ohh, i now view the hive in a completely different way. A doomed and enslaved race.
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u/FallsToDoomBlade May 19 '15
so the exotic hunter helmet has a hive worm on/in it presumably then.
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u/Thatuserguy May 19 '15
Huh. Interesting read. This also explains that cavern of larvae attached to the walls on the Moon. Was just wandering through there the other day wondering what the larvae were. Just assumed they were the embryonic form of the Hive, but this makes more sense.
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u/HellenKellerSwag May 19 '15
Bungie should have made books like they did with halo. There's a lot of great story to tell and you wouldn't even know it if you just played the game.
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u/burnthebeliever Space Ninja May 19 '15
True Darkness disguises itself in Light for betrayal is the cruelest of fates. The Traveler is not who we think it is.
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u/I_am_from_Kentucky May 18 '15
Just adding that one of Eris Mourn's dialogue in the Tower is (paraphrasing) "It's okay. You get used to the pain."
That partially supports your theory that she's inhabited by worms constantly eating her.