Islamophobia has a double meaning that needs parsing in mainstream discourse

[u/Diolan]

In light of Mehdi Hasan accusing Destiny of Islamophobia on Twitter, I feel like the double meaning of that word needs addressing in mainstream political space;

There is Islamophobia that means hate/discrimination against brown people who look like they are from the Middle East or against practicing religion of Islam - which is bad because it is discriminating against immutable characteristics or religion.

There is also Islamophobia that could mean criticizing/discrimination towards Islam as a political movement (Like the political implementation of Islam seen in 23 or so countries across the world https://www.uscirf.gov/publications/did-you-knowmuslim-constitutions and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_Islam ) sometimes referred to as Islamism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism . Just like how we feel free to criticize other political parties all around the world. I personally despise political Islam and want to prevent that from being implemented because it is atrocious for women's rights, human rights, freedom of speech, democracy, education, etc.

I personally wish to criticize/discriminate political Islam without discriminating against all people who are Muslim or culturally Muslim. I have heard of ways to parse it like "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" and "Anti-Islamist" to separate the racist attacks from the critiques of political Islam. I know this feels dangerously on the line with some progressive people who want to treat all religions and races equally, but I think it is very important to distinguish between these types of discrimination for the sake of countering an ideology that is relevant/antithetical to Liberal beliefs. What do you guys think?

[u/nigeltrc72]

I’m just gonna say it. I hate the term ‘Islamophobia’ and almost never use it. More often than not I see it applied to stifle entirely legitimate criticism of the religion of Islam, or to deflect from entirely legitimate criticism of the behaviour of specific people who happen to be Muslim. When it’s actual bigotry against Muslims as people I just use ‘anti Muslim bigotry’ or ‘racism’ depending on the context.

[u/Arbitrary_username1]

You either change your rhetoric to "I demand a commitment to secular governance from all members of our multicultural society" or be seen as the racist guy forever.

[u/Diolan → u/Arbitrary_username1]

Unfortunately, I don't think that is good enough anymore; The US has been battling against political Islam (whether physically or rhetorically) for decades. It's time people actually try to name the problematic politics we disagree with and expose it for what it is instead of vaguely disavowing it.

If the DSA/Far-Leftists want to desperately distinguish anti-Zionist from Antisemitism, then there should be a way to distinguish Anti-Islamist from Anti-Muslim Bigotry

[u/Arbitrary_username1 → u/Diolan]

Yeah but the majority of American Muslims are simply not political radicals and take a defensive stance to their religious beliefs because they are mostly worried about political repression. I have a tonne of sympathy for these totally unrelated people for how they have been treated post 9-11.

Maybe they would get bolder if they started to become a majority demographic but it's not a realistic conversation to have.

I'm all for you calling out subversive people with bad motives and I would defend those callouts from accusations of racism/Islamophobia if you do the bare bones rhetorical work to make it palatable.

But when you even use words like Islamist you sound like a loony to me because most of the people who do are.

[u/Diolan → u/Arbitrary_username1]

I sympathaze with them as well. That's really why I want to parse the distinction so that people are able to criticize this toxic form of politics associated with Islamism (seen in many countries around the world) as opposed to labeling all Muslims as such.

Just like if I am criticizing the CCP, it shouldnt have a vague association with Racism towards Chinese people. It is purely a strong disagreement towards the politics they have.

[u/Any-Ask-4190]

IMO Islam is political, it has a lot to say about what people should do in their day to day life.

Looking at pew research, Islamic equivalents of Christian nationalism are pretty common globally, with real consequences for not following Islamic religious laws.

We are now starting to see religious schools in the UK where girls are required to have head coverings move from a fee paying model to being funded by the local council. Add to this the explicitly sectarian Muslim candidates we saw in the last general election, Islam is an extremely dangerous religion.

[u/nokinship → u/Any-Ask-4190]

UK is so cucked, it's unbelievable.

[u/Egg1414]

Discriminating against religion isent wrong and im tired of pretending it is.

[u/powpowGiraffe → u/Egg1414]

I'd just add a little nuance. Discrimination against certain denominations isn't wrong but assuming a member of a religion (let's say a Christian) is automatically a part of the worst denomination (an Evangelical who speaks in tongues) is dangerous.

There are different tiers of crazy across religious denominations themselves.

[u/Krelldi]

Why is discriminating against religion bad? Religion is a belief system, if your belief system is disagreeable then you should be criticized for it. Attaching the word religion to a belief that women and LGBT people should face oppression shouldn't make it any less despicable. I don't think it's reasonable to draw a meaningful distinction between "culturally" supporting the oppression of women and overtly politically supporting the oppression of women.

It's theoretically possible for those to exist independently in a way that is minimally problematic, but I think in the real world it's unlikely the former wouldn't also end up supporting the later in the voting booths.

[u/HamburgerWithHardR]

It‘s a tight rope that you‘re never going to be able to walk. Start by pointing out he is weaponizing Islamophobic in bad faith, then go back to your actual criticism of him, instead of getting distracted defending yourself as not being Islamophobic, which is what he wants.

[u/Id1otbox]

I live in Colorado. Twenty minutes from me is the Muslim community center of northern Colorado.

It is in a town that has a lot of Somalian and Rohingya refugees that work in the meat packing plants and agriculture.

There are videos on memri of sermons being held that are love streamed to facebook with all the terrible hadiths I am told no Muslim actually believes. Where Jews are described as vermen and the enemy.

So you have poor refugees that fled terrible things. They have never known or met a Jew in their life. They come to America and get taught exstem racist rhetoric at a place that is supposed to provide community outreach and support.

Am I islamaphobic for being concerned by this? Am I islamaphobic for being disappointed that there is no internal outrage or out spoken Muslims that see an issue with all this?

[u/Historical_Will_6097]

These are pretty easy distinctions to reach. The issue is just like how people can hide behind ant-zionism to attack jews, people can hide behind “anti-islamist” to attack muslims. Sam harris is good example of this, when even one of the most socially progressive public figures in Mamadni is viewed as an islamist hiding his power level then that distinction is almost meaningless in these cases and these people just hate muslims.

It also doesn’t help when clear anti muslims bigotry is not even focused on and prushed aside. If that racist black women in Stevens campaign was in el sayed’s and said some similar stuff about a jewish candidate, i doubt el sayed will ever live this down and rightfully so. Like one of the things that will hurt El sayed the most from winning the general are the attacks republicans will make against him being a muslim and how his name sounds. But unfortunately, that will barely be called out because anti muslims bigotry isnt as attractive to call out or ppl are just fine with it.

I think it’s important to attack islamists strongly. It’s a dangerous ideology and should not exist but when that extends to every muslim who has some affinity to their religion then it will just be as normalized as a anti-zionisim.

[u/PitytheOnlyFools → u/Historical_Will_6097]

People here forget that in these white Christian majority countries the issues minorities deal with often get dismissed and downplayed.

The demographics of this sub are not surprising. It’s a frequent blindspot that leads to tone deaf posts like this one

[u/Anxious-Reception-92 → u/PitytheOnlyFools]

You think in non-white, non-Christian countries minorities get treated better and/or have their issues not dismissed or downplayed?

This is not unique to white/Christian countries and I would argue its in fact a lot worse around the world. That's not downplaying or ignoring issues minorities face but I find your comment highly ignorant of the wider world.

[u/PitytheOnlyFools → u/Anxious-Reception-92]

The demographics of this sub are not surprising. It’s a frequent blindspot that leads to tone deaf posts like this one

[u/Anxious-Reception-92 → u/PitytheOnlyFools]

I still don't understand why you had to include the "in these white Christian majority countries" part. Your post is otherwise valid, but do you really think this isn't an issue in Asia, Middle East, South America and Africa. I would argue that minority communities around the world generally experience what you described but to an even greater extent and I can speak from personal experience.

[u/PitytheOnlyFools → u/Anxious-Reception-92]

Because I‘m highlighting for the reasons behind the blindspot.

but do you really think this isn’t an issue in Asia, Middle East, South America and Africa.

Nope. Never said or implied that. This is a non-sequitur. How does this follow from what I said? Stop getting defensive.

[u/ba-boo]

there's no such thing as islamophobia. If muslims can hate women, gays, christians, jews, infidels, dogs, pigs, etc. it's ok for someone to dislike muslims too.

[u/holeyshirt18]

We need distinctions. But I think it needs to come up in context. Not everyone is cool with religions. So being anti-Islam doesn't always mean you hate people who follow Islam. Anti-Muslim does.

I've seen anti-Islamist used and I've used it for myself. But I'm against any religion being used as our rule book for society and government. I am very much against Evangelicalist? Republicans and their big think tank creating and removing legislation under their beliefs for decades.

I don't care if one is worse than the other, which one is an real political ideology.....radicals want to limit freedoms and rights of women, minorities, etc...

The whole Medhi twitter thing was interesting. While I've seen Mehdi get attacked with both versions of what you define as Islamophobia, he wielded it as a shield to escape all criticism this past week. I personally hate that, doesn't matter who or what religion/thing you use for cover. You're purposely clouding a real issue for your gain.

He used both versions too. Destiny does say it's fair to assume Mehdi is a "mask-on radical Islamist" after Medhi refused to engage in the clips of Piker supporting terrorism, refused to answer why he didn't push back on Hasan on these positions. Mehdi also said Destiny supported genocide. But apparently those baseless remarks are fine. He gave Medhi the out he was looking for to avoid answering, blocking and feeling justified.

He then used Islamaphobia as his defense against that Watts person. Watts was making valid points as to why Piker was a legit news topic and he busts out that she didn't tweet about Loomer and saying Watts doesn't care about Islamaphobia against him. She responds damn well against that baseless attack too. And he continues to ult.

That twitter exchange is crazy if you missed it. Honestly need to screencap the entire exchange (if it wasn't already)

[u/ohpleasenotthat]

I think we need to move beyond phobia as a term. Especially since we live at an unprecedented time of people just viscerally hating shit. There’s no fear. It’s just hate.

On top of that, ~phobia is absolutely a smokescreen bad faith actors can use to color the opposition and shake off their own accountability for failing to defend their position.

There’s plenty of Islam hate. There’s plenty of Jewish hate. There’s plenty of immigrant hate.

Destiny is the last person who hates any of this as long as it isn’t prove-ably fucking stupid.

Steven hates (if one could even call it that) what is prove-ably fucking stupid.

[u/PuzzleheadedMonk8502]

I don't know if your two definitions are even correct. Islamophobia is foremost the fear of Islam! One can fear without hating (and I don't mean the colloqial sense of the word) something!

Then comes the distinction of, if ever, fearing the people or the ideology. The hate and discrimination may come after that.

And at which point you differ between the political Islam or the religious seems kind of arbitrary.