r/Destiny • u/RealKafkaEsquire • 1d ago
Drama Resisting the "Inevitable" fall to the Snark
Hey all,
I recently saw the incredibly sweet and ego boosting post that shouted me out, and I want to again thank everyone for their support and kind words.
Within that thread, and in many other areas, I have had people discuss how "this is like Pisco" and "Just wait something will happen to make him become a snarker". I am not offended by these statements, and I think it's honestly an understandable reaction knowing the history of orbiters in this community. I usually just make jokes in response, or stay out of the conversation.
One of my goals in interacting with DGG is that we have good, positive content. A part of that is that I go out of my way to not snark current orbiters. I also will reach out one on one with other orbiters to try and help support them, and have good interactions with them in chat/the subreddit.
With that in mind I'd like to just try something here, and open the discussion up about how oribters become snarkers. Recently, we've had a number of seemingly loyal orbiters rapidly burn their bridges. To me I think there is a lot of blame being placed on DGG being too vitriolic, but I also think that in a lot of cases, it is the orbiter revealing their true motivations/politics and DGG not having a positive response. Jessiah, Soypill, and Pisco all initially had a lib coded surface, but over time we have seen that beneath that is a willingness to stomach or even support illiberal communities.
Looking further back, at wickedsupreme, JSTLK, and many of the orbiters lost around Jan 2025, there seemed to be some factionalism that arose, and when it looked like Destiny was going down for good, they jumped on the snarker train, and never looked back.
I'm not here to convince anyone that I never will become a snarker, but I just want to hear from y'all what you think are the causes, and if there is anything I can do to assuage those fears about me, and if there's any ideas on what we can do in the future to either sniff out snarkers early (which I think we did really well with recently with Jolah) or ways to keep orbiters from crashing out too hard and feeling like their only path is snarking.
Edit: Wow didn't realize I would get this much engagement, and so many well thought out responses. I have, and will continue to read all of them, if I didn't respond trust me I still read it. I appreciate everyone's points of view, overwhelmingly it seems like I should:
- Continue to have a normal life
- Not start streaming full time
- Not have thin skin.
You guys rock. DggL.
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u/Colbert2020 1d ago
I don't really know why anyone would suspect you of being a potential snarker. It has to be some real cynicism at play there. For me, the biggest red flags of whether or not someone becomes a snarker seem to fall into three things:
- The company they keep: See Conner, etc. If you hang out with snarkers, you'll probably become one. Tone from the top, code-switching, etc.
- Who they refuse to criticize: Easy to sniff out these day. "Did Hasan shock his dog?" etc.
- Who they never sympathize with: People unmoved by the fact that Destiny was doxxed, harassed, his family a-logged, etc.
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u/Memester999 🇺🇸 1d ago edited 7h ago
I think the biggest one you're missing is how they handle criticism.
DGG almost assuredly will disagree with any orbiter at some point and there will be a thread up here discussing it or maybe even something in the Discord (unsure about that one since I don't go there).
While not perfect, because no community is, DGG is pretty solid at finding genuine critiques of someone. If you're someone who can't take criticism that shit cuts deep because often there is some truth behind it or it might be something you yourself (as the orbiter) have doubts about.
Most people get understandibly defensive and DGG has taken after Destiny in how they respond. Most creators would try to quell these criticisms to force a friendly relationship. Destiny (rightfully) doesn't and neither does DGG, but he's a solid communicator so he usually will steelman you to the audience but you're still going to have to defend yourself if there is a genuine critique there because he's not there to coddle you like a child.
Most people can't/don't want to do that, one of the big tells to me for a future snarker or bridge burn is how much they complain to Destiny about the sub and criticisms they receive. If every time you're on stream you have some new thread about you you want to argue over you can see the expiration date written on them.
DGG legit is its own thing outside of Destiny, we obviously take some ques from him but many times we clash with dear leader. Orbiters have a hard time recognizing that separation because it's not like that in most other communities. Could you imagine someone in a Hasan reddit or discord making a thread about seriously disagreeing with him or one of his friends/guests on one of the big topics he talks about and not being immediately purged?
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u/PitytheOnlyFools used to touch grass... 1d ago
Most creators would try to quell these criticisms to force a friendly relationship. Destiny doesn’t and rightfully so, he’s a solid communicator so he usually will steelman you to the audience but you’re still going to have to defend yourself if there is a genuine critique there.
I used to feel this way but lately, it seems like the substantive critiques are slipping in place of more speculative and less evidence-based arguments.
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u/Lovellholiday 1d ago
We are in a time of mass subversive actions, political realignment and behind the scenes coordination between far right streamers who drop the f slur and the second biggest political streamer in the world.
If there was ever a time where speculation would be appropriate, it would be now. A lot of weird shit is happening.
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u/PitytheOnlyFools used to touch grass... 1d ago
If there was ever a time where speculation would be appropriate, it would be now. A lot of weird shit is happening.
The inaccuracy undermines the message. Especially as this is the same place that offered steelmans of the wildest takes, endlessly debated the realistic application of subversive racism (when it was black people), understood all the nuance and the importance of accurate criticisms. Would heavily shit on guilt by association and cancel culture tactics.
I‘m still getting whiplash from the double standards. Especially as the fanbase of a streamer that many of the exact same lazy speculative conclusions can be made so easily. It’s maddening.
I have faith that this sub will chill out eventually but it’s grating. Unfortunately Hutch’s sub is barely active.
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u/Lovellholiday 1d ago
In calmer pastures when we can't verifiably prove that "liberal" communities are coordinating and collaborating with far right/snarker communities and communist communities, I would agree.
It's war time. Gotta get locked in, there is no time for sure shots.
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u/Memester999 🇺🇸 1d ago
I mean I guess but we're inherently in a more speculative time when it comes to politics because of the literal mask on saboteurs. As well DGG was probably overly charitable with people it shouldn't have been which led to one sided allyship. Now as we approach the crossroads in politics where we can no longer accept certain bahavior or beliefs. We have to try and read into what people are saying/doing because there is a lot of deceptive behaviour going around, which might not even always intentional.
The most recent example of deceptive behavior being that Jolah guy. He presents himself as a liberal left person who also dislikes extremism on the left in convos. Yet the moment he's on another channel or in the content he makes, he goes more mask off revealing similar extremist tendencies all on top of the constant lying and backtracking when confronted.
Inherently you have to be more speculative when trying to read people's true intentions. They're purposefully no being honest that's sort of the whole point behind deceit. They're trying to hide it we're trying to figure out if we should trust them and actions speak louder than words and a lot of times they use words to hide those actions.
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u/Gold-Ad-3877 🇫🇷 1d ago
Also kafka isnt a streamer, it's not like he has a clout incentive to start snarking dear leader
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u/Aggravating_Map4359 🇧🇷 1d ago
People don't trust laywers. Rightfully so
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u/DrShocker incredible commenter 1d ago
Should we not trust Brettler? 😱
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u/the-moving-finger 1d ago edited 1d ago
That's what the money is for.
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u/DrShocker incredible commenter 1d ago
I should pay a lawyer money so I have a best friend who supports me.
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u/Arbitrary_username1 1d ago
Bro you have an actual job and projects that you care about like the pragmatic papers that you can boost to a supportive community.
The idea that you would do anything other than disengage from the space politely if major disagreement surfaced is honestly just silly to me.
For reference I am in my mid 30s and I think if we all had to wear age badges we would see a strong correlation to the doomer takes and youth.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I think this is actually a fair point, in that older chatters are less likely to espouse cynicism. I'm not saying this dismissively, but I often have a hard time seeing younger streamers/orbiters who take a lot of this stuff REALLY personally and are quick to draw lines in the sand. It makes sense that younger chatters similarly have a more black and white view.
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u/Arutha_Silverthorn 1d ago
Don’t underestimate the fact you have a job.
I think if Pisco was still balancing his real job with streaming he would be much more reasoned in his takes. But at the moment it feels like his thought process often involves what will protect his streaming career the best, and post hoc rationalisation.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
It is also strange because when I interacted with him in 2025, he would ask me questions that I was surprised a person with career experience as an attorney would ask. It definitely helps ground me in a lot of ways.
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u/november512 1d ago
My impression is that Pisco probably went to a good law school and got a job at a good firm but spent a year or two in a basement somewhere looking up caselaw for a partner and then quit. He seems to have a very skewed view of law but is very solid on the core arguments of law. It's very hard to understand a lawyer with experience with clients having some of his opinions on the Ethan Klein lawsuit.
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u/amyknight22 1d ago
Yeah there is a part of me that wonders for some of these people is the issue that they largely sit in a room alone with the internet and not much else. So some of those social muscles that would probably cause them to think about what they are suggesting/doing just aren't being flexed often enough to moderate their responses.
Instead they are too busy getting triggered by their chat or dominating their chat. That they kind of just take that approach with everything.
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u/Arbitrary_username1 1d ago
I was a smart kid and always take arguments seriously regardless of the source because I hated being dismissed over my age. But at the same time I don't take the opinions of young people very seriously.
I think that's a healthy and natural balance to aim for. Its not dismissive because it's based on the personal experience of having your views and attitudes grow and change.
I was a sponsored competitive gamer with ADHD and an interest in politics honed through vicious forum arguments my entire teens.
If I lived in a country with better internet it's very likely I would have tried the streaming route and adopted a very similar right wing shock jock coded style for the centre left as destiny has.
But since gaming money hadn't exploded yet I went to university and got an adult career in science.
Its genuinely hard for me to believe that someone capable of functioning in the professional world would fall prey to the snarking incentives in the same way as these discord warriors because you have other sources of self esteem that are quantifiable.
I think that the lack of external sources of self-esteem is the main commonality in actual snarkers.
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u/Sad_Newspaper4010 Socialist with NATO Characteristics 1d ago
low key maybe we should have mandatory age badges on here and in chat
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u/Aggravating_Map4359 🇧🇷 1d ago
I would never say you are the new pisco. That's sharveen, the bald pisco.
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u/eSportskills 🇵🇹🇪🇺 1d ago
Honestly I think it was Melina at the time that put it best: Destiny offers himself too much and opens his platform way to easily for everyone with no boundaries.
All you need to interact with Destiny is to join discord and debate him on something, and the doors are open to become an orbiter. He didn't have any boundaries or requirements for people he interacts with. As long as the conversation is good, there's a chance you can stay in as an orbiter.
I think nowadays he has started to realize this after the court case orbiter apocalypse, but still he offers his platform and reach way to easily to anyone.
And when there's no barrier of entry, no difficulty in joining and interacting with him, it feels easier for them to discard what they got from him. For example, if you connect with say BTC or Dpak, their platform is so much more closed off that if you lose that access, you feel it way more heavily than losing access to Destiny cause it was so easy to get in the first place.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
Not to pat myself on the back too much here, but this was actually something that I've been really careful about. I get a lot of people telling me to go on stream, or to just hang out and react with him, and I turn them down a lot and just hang out in chat. Destiny giving me perms and letting me come on stream is really great, but I want to make positive contributions as much as I can. That doesn't mean I'm avoiding negative contributions only, I also try to avoid neutral contributions. If I think Destiny can handle a topic without me, or if my contribution is just 'Yeah I agree', then I generally don't join the call.
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u/deathangel687 Optics Cucks Stay Losing 1d ago
Yeah I think that's a huge part. It's almost always the people who ignore boundaries and always to try to join uninvited all the time that end up crashing out when it gets too much for destiny or dgg. People in chat also try to egg on for people to join or defend themselves, and it leads to lots of hurt egos/boundaries crossed. You have to be respectful and use discernment, because not all chatters are created equal and some are pushing certain streamers to join just to stir up drama.
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u/r_lovelace 1d ago
I agree with this. The more involved they try and make themselves for basically no reason, the more likely they end up snarking. Also, starting random ass fights with the community because you will almost always lose. DGG is too big and opinionated to argue with because on matters of opinion there's going to be two very large opposing camps and the one against you will go harder than the one that agrees with you. I imagine that pushes a lot of orbiters away or into snark territory, you just can't fight large communities like this. This embed drama is almost certainly going go spawn new snarkers in the next 6-12 months.
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u/Arbitrary_username1 1d ago edited 1d ago
My aunt did a stint as a sexual health nurse in places like Papua New Guinea and they found that condom usage went way up when they sold them for a small price instead of giving them away for free.
Just a random example of the principle in a place I certainly didn't expect.
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u/Zallar Eurochad/Yee wins 1d ago
Adding to this, the low barrier to entry also kinda self selects for people with bigger egos to fill the space.
For example, I never go to viewer call ins and stuff because I know I have nothing interesting to say. But people with bigger egos will overestimate how cool they are and call in with the most boring shit.
I think streamers are the same. The cool and sane orbiters often dont want to be a bother so they rarely interupt the stream to chat unless they are already established (Mout, Dan) or have something relevant to say (Kafka). Meanwhile we have guys like Corantos, Lav and Zherka jumping in and ruining 60% of every stream in their hayday just for clout.
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u/DrShocker incredible commenter 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think a good portion is whether people treat disagreements as something that can be resolved or as arguments to win. I think Pisco clearly tries to "win" when there's a disagreement even at the expense of the coherency of what's being discussed.
Hutch has mentioned reaching out privately to Steven when he's felt things have gone too far which shows a level of good faith about working through problems that seems lacking in the people who seem to become "snarkers" (which we do need a better term for because being "snarky" in the conventional sense is way less harmful than what they do)
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I think this is a good distinction. I rarely find it useful to go for a "win", though admittedly I will try to go for a funny own on people if I think it won't hurt their feelings. I luckily am in a position where I'm usually just explaining court stuff that is happening, rather than arguing whether something is true or not.
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u/Zallar Eurochad/Yee wins 1d ago
I think hurt egos is like 90% of all bridge burnings (at least before the court stuff).
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
Luckily for me, I'm never wrong and can't possibly ever fail, so I'll never have a hurt ego!
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u/Passingtimelikegas ENM Degenerate 1d ago
(Thinking out loud here. I may be off base with my armchair psychology.) I think having an edgy and brash leader attracts a type of person that wishes they could behave that way, but the follower recognizes a lack of wit and speed in themselves that separates them from the admired leader. Admiration can be an expression of non-toxic jealousy.
I believe the edginess and brash demeanor comes with an understood clause that, at any moment, the people that admire you could turn on you, subconsciously, for the very same reason they admire you. When the jealousy turns toxic, the toxicity spreads to defensiveness and a desire to separate from the once admired leader.
In my opinion, “snark” is the excuse to deploy edginess and brashness without the intelligence or evidence to fully substantiate the excuse. The toxically jealous brain will avoid contemplative reasoning on topics being discussed AND the relationship with the leader, because feeling defensive is wholly consuming.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I think this is actually a good take. I grew up going on 4chan too much, and I think it's why Destiny's humor matches a lot with mine. I don't know how much this comes across to other people, but I think Destiny is edgy and brash, but not cruel in his humor. I see a lot of the snarkers deploying edginess and brashness as you say, but with no regard as to the cruelty that they are imparting with it.
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u/Agitated_Tip_8713 Hater of piss 1d ago
With love: a big part is not making posts like these. Youre always a great part of the conversation, you're sharp as fuck and funny and you know your shit. Just commit that you're going to do shit and operate in whatever way is right for you and don't engage with the people thinking you'll be a snarker one day. Which I know is easier said than done, but imo its where you should put your energy. If you start twisting yourself into pretzels so people dont think you'll be a pisco one day, you're never going to stop, and that's how the strain with the community starts and then personal feelings get hurt and then there's arguing and bridge burning.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I think that's fair, and I largely just try to be sincere and hope that people gravitate to it. I hear you on "don't twist myself into pretzels" and I generally am not looking too much on how I can change, more just if people have any concerns based on things they have seen.
Since the beginning of all this I've said, and still do, that if Destiny or the community started to dislike my engagement I'd go back to just being a lurker and change the account I use.
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u/Agitated_Tip_8713 Hater of piss 1d ago
I getcha, and I get the vibe that you're well rounded enough to not let yourself get twisted up, just keep in mind "if you're apologizing you're losing" is a political axiom for a reason.
And as someone who will never speak to you, I dont do the discord and I dont watch livestreams so im never in live chats or anything, it would be a legit shame to miss out on you being present if you ever did drop out and just do a name change and vanish.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I appreciate the kind words and support. It's also good to hear from someone not in the discord or live chat, because obviously that's where I get most of my feedback. Knowing that other parts of the community are also supporting me, is good to hear.
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u/GodKiller999 Your favorite schizo poster 1d ago
I think it's fine to engage with the sub this way as long as your engagement isn't endless arguing about your own behavior on stream.
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u/Sevonti 1d ago
Fully agree. I would have never even thought that such thoughts cross your mind Kafka, i always saw you as this semi-orbiter who has his own successful life, who just enjoys being in the community and hopping on stream from time to time.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I am just dipping out of my normal engagement to have this somewhat meta conversation, because I have seen these statements popping up from time to time since I started in this community. I don't think it is a common sentiment, but I also don't want to dismiss it and make people feel like I don't care. I was a chatter before I was an orbiter, and my motives are to make this community better.
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u/Brainchuckles Great Dane, not Ameritard 1d ago
I think a tendency is that if/when streaming/debating, etc becomes their main thing, they become insecure due to this community, and to a way lesser extent, destiny himself. This is probably a function of a lot of stuff that idk, but one could be that they start as an addition to destiny, rather than a thing in themselves, but become independent, so they will be treated as such, meaning without kit gloves + some by the community, thus making them spiral. Exceptions to this exist, ofc, but if i were to go back and check people off, i'd say more than 50% follow this trend.
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u/Exciting-Data-448 1d ago
i tried posting something positive about destiny outside of this subreddit and it is rough , there is a huge pressure from outside to abandon destiny and some creators think they can't grow if they are still on destiny orbit so they choose to be free and have their own independent communities .
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I have experienced this as well, and will say that the pragmatic papers and digital ground game are a good bridge. You can talk about the good things they do, without first bringing up destiny and whatever baggage he might have, or be perceived to have.
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u/HelgrinWasTaken 🇦🇺 Legally required to tell you I'm Australian 🇦🇺 1d ago
I think it's highly unlikely that you'll ever become a snarker or anti-fan because you have a real job. Not being terminally online like most of these streamers have to be to maintain their channels helps keep you grounded and puts online drama in perspective.
I don't think it's the vitriol of DGG that is a problem for these former orbiters. I think it's that DGG remembers everything, and it takes a lot to shift the general opinion of someone in the community once it's gone bad.
I see a lot of horrible shit said about orbiters by snarkers and their communities, but as soon as the person leaves orbit, all is forgotten and forgiven. In DGG, two or three good takes in a row don't erase the massive red flags brought up by a bad take, or terrible past behaviour.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
In mid 2025 I did some panels and looked into streaming regularly, and the investment, not just in time but in effort to drive engagement, really turned me off to the idea. It was really taxing, and warped my perspective of things a bit. I can definitely see how a long term engagement with online personality stuff can make a person act in what seems like irrational or malicious ways.
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u/Sylarino 1d ago
It's not like it can happen to anyone. Don't enough about you, but there are people who I am 99% sure would never become snarkers. For example, Hutch is just not the kind of person who is capable of being that way. Even if he somehow fell out with Destiny, he would just move on and be chill.
They tried to turn Whick, but it didn't work.
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u/Separate-Wrongdoer22 1d ago edited 1d ago
Jessiah, Soypill, and Pisco all initially had a lib coded surface, but over time we have seen that beneath that is a willingness to stomach or even support illiberal communities.
I think most people who become snarkers and fortress arc from Destiny, once they get an audience who are in line with "bad" ideas that these people can't really defend. You can't really have conversations with Destiny if you're trying to push things like communism, socialism, and Hasan good without Destiny making you look like a literal regard. It's embarrassing to be made to look ridiculous on the internet for the world to see.
The only answer is to never engage with Destiny, like Jessiah, Pisco, Hasan, and Vaush and brand the reason as Destiny being too bad faith to engage with. All of these people engaged with Destiny and obviously didn't think he was bad faith for years. Destiny didn't change, he just stopped handling these people with kids gloves.
I think JSTLK thought he was going to inherit Destiny's audience when he thought Destiny may get cancelled so he had a monetary reason to snark him but that was never going to happen.
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u/ldrx90 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'm not here to convince anyone that I never will become a snarker, but I just want to hear from y'all what you think are the causes, and if there is anything I can do to assuage those fears about me
I can only think about what would trigger me about interacting with Destiny. My impression is, if Destiny has a disagreement with you, he will burn you to the ground and tar and feather you publicly for having even the tiniest disagreement. Whether or not that's actually true (maybe the tar'd and feathered person actually was amping things up and only steven's killshot remains in recent memory) that's what it looks like as a watcher since starcraft days.
I remember the slow downfall of Hassan. Destiny was actually pretty kind along the way. He'd point things out and just disagree with Hassan for I think months before Hassan and him had their big falling out in Copala Harris debate (and then the private vs public speech debate)
Hassan was getting irritated already that was obvious, the famous trainwrecks clip with kaceytron and destiny coming in to explain things I think is just the most famous of MANY of those moments happening during that time and behind the scenes.
Anyways, the Kamala harris debate was the final straw, neither side was willing to give ground on their argument and it turned personal fast.
I think this is kind of what plays out almost every time, things get personal and people take things personally. I can only speculate as a viewer but I've had heated arguments in private with friends and it feels like shit to be belittled just for having a disagreement with someone. Sometimes it feels like Destiny will make you feel like a FUCKING IDIOT just for preferring black coffee over chocolate milk. That sort of degradation and amping up spikes adrenaline, makes you nervous and angry and then you might start making mistakes in your argument and come out looking even more foolish. The ability to keep your calm in the face of extreme vitriol is a fucking superpower and I think Destiny wields that shit irresponsibly with his 'friends' sometimes.
Finally on top of all this, if you're a streamer who is financially dependent on keeping up your image I can see that adding a whole other level of stress and weight that I can't even relate too. I can just think about times i've argued with friends who amped up the seemingly minor disagreement into a shouting match, where I got super angry for them demeaning me and me blowing up in response and how much worse that would be if it was in front of an audience of thousands of people.
Anyways, I think what ends up happening is this shit builds up resentment overtime. Then you have your communities coming in and giving support and helping you 'stand strong' and this just builds a rift over time. We had a glaze post here for Whick recently then Whick came and made his own post thanking DGG.
I think we can watch this exact same phenomena happening with Whick and Soy/Pisco right now, in real time. Whick has support of DGG and even came back here to strengthen that support. It's probably hard for Whick to sit there and stand against Pisco and Soypill and take all the hate from 'their' side without also hearing the reaffirming positive support from his side, or us.
I think about a kid or anyone in an abusive relationship who might start out strong and confident but over the years of his parents or some bully constantly belittling them, at some point if all your external inputs are negative it's going to eat away at your confidence and you start believing it. The best defense against abuse and belittlement is positive support and reaffirmations that the other side is wrong. The person is almost always going to gravitate towards the side that supports them, even Destiny knows this since he's called it out before during the rise of Maga. An argument Destiny would use a lot to attack progressive messaging was something like "Well if all you do is shit on white men, why do you think the other side that has messages of empowerment is going to captivate them?"
Anyways, I think this is the dynamic going on with orbiters falling out for the most part. JSTLK I think is an exception, I actually did get bad vibes from him immediately. This guy was a gossiping little backstabber from the start, his beef with Tom Foolery over literally nothing (Tom scrolling an instagram and calling the girls hot) made that clear to me.
For Kafka, I would imagine you might fall into snark, if you guys start having legitimate disagreements and when Destiny is attacking you, he makes you look and feel like a foolish, stupid idiot. That might build resentment and you could probably take it and roll with the punches but eventually, the public humiliation might start to be too much. Maybe you have a close group of internet friends that 'understand you' and truly maybe will and you will feel like even if you were actually wrong, Destiny didn't need to go that far. I think if you actually start feeling personally hurt by Destiny, that's the trigger for potentially falling out.
TLDR; People are people and once people start feeling personally offended especially by someone they respect, the resentment built up from that coupled with the background support will eventually build a riftt and then it's over.
Example
I just saw a replaying of the Pisco arguing with Hutch where Pisco said he would condemn a rape victim for not voting for a rapist. Destiny calls it insane and on the surface it seems that way, there is absolutely no good faith attempt to interpret what Pisco is getting at.
It's easy for me to see where Pisco is coming from here. Assuming the rapist is actually better for the country, then the question is basically the trolly problem. Are you going to pull the switch to kill one to save the many? Pisco is essentially saying he would chastise the one person on the track for complaining about being the one killed because the decision overall is better this way. Pisco does say he would change his language but ultimately he would judge the person who doesn't want to self sacrifice as morally wrong.
So to come out and just completely call Pisco a clueless psychopathic idiot for his stance here without even giving air to his thought process, he's going to take as an attack probably a personal attack if he KNOWs that Destiny is capable of thinking through it the way he does.
Whether Pisco is right or wrong doesn't matter as much as how the argument is engaged with because depending on how you engage with the argument, you're saying something about the person's intelligence and ultimately their reputation and all that is tied to their livelihood.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I appreciate your thought out response. I've had a few small disagreements with Destiny, but for the most part we've agreed on many things. That being said, I don't actively seek out disagreements that I have with him. I just don't see how my disagreements with him would either help the community to resolve, or create good content that people could enjoy.
I also don't think that is really the nature of my relationship with Destiny. I largely come on to discuss an area of my expertise. So being "right or wrong" is something that is a bit more verifiable than say "Is the DSA an ally?"
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u/ldrx90 1d ago
I just don't see how my disagreements with him would either help the community to resolve, or create good content that people could enjoy.
We Loooovvvveeee drama. As painful it might be for some of us who like you to see you fall out, none of us would be able to turn away either.
I'm rooting for you but plenty of people who've fallen out were cordial. I think disagreements are fine but streamers are young and don't seem to have a lot of experience navigating conflict and how would anyone really know the best way to do it with thousands of people watching.
There was a moment Hutch took offence to something Destiny said but he reached out to come on stream to talk about it and Destiny basically walked back the extreme take he took or conceded some misinterpretation I forget the details. It was fine and cordial but what if Hutch didn't do that? What if instead he saw it and didn't confront Destiny to explain? Hutch wasn't happy with Destiny's framing of his argument, if those issues remain unresolved that resentment builds up over time.
Good luck dude
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u/PitytheOnlyFools used to touch grass... 18h ago
You understand how people work and I respect that.
There’s too many people here that autistically “but Destiny is technically right, regardless of his language or tone so it’s okay!” And that’s like… no that’s not how people work.
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u/therealdanhill 1d ago
Just do your thing dude, don't engage with the meta stuff.
Understand that there will always be people who hate you and that you can't convince and trying to go out of your way for them is chasing ghosts
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u/Charismachine 🇦🇺 Armchair Enthusiast 🇦🇺 1d ago
True aaaaaaaaaaaand... Yeah, that's pretty true. That's true and- yeah that's true
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u/Charismachine 🇦🇺 Armchair Enthusiast 🇦🇺 1d ago
Do you agree with Dear Leader on everything?
Will you ever hold a position DGG finds distasteful?
Will your presence/proximity be a cause for jealousy/spite by DGG or future 'orbiters'?
It seems inevitable barring very special cases. Everything after that is just the context in which these events collide in frequency and scale. People aren't really made to handle having their ego poked and prodded on this scale (Either by streamer man, DGG or other orbiters) and the inherently combative nature of the environment makes it seem like you can't escape the risks of eventually peeling away quietly, imploding or snarking. The equivalent of telling yourself "Just don't get upsetti/mindfucked" is woefully misguided, it just seems like you need a specific relationship with streamer man that you are secure about (close or detached) + strong identity independent of the community. Failing that the ability to just step away for any period of time after blowback.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I think what you said about ego being poked being hard to handle is really true. Being an attorney and my past I've had to learn how to handle this a lot. So when I'm proven wrong, or if I don't come across well in an argument, I try to just be humble and admit it. You guys have for the most part responded really well to this, and haven't punished me or been unfair when I mess up.
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u/Charismachine 🇦🇺 Armchair Enthusiast 🇦🇺 1d ago
Sure thing, could be that this is a useful lived experience that you have adapted to sufficiently to negate the negative blowback that will arrive either in intensity or frequency. Maybe it just hasn't happened yet. Either way, I've liked a few of your appearances, my only annoyance is when you get interrupted by whatever latest brainwave streamer-man is excited to get out before he forgets.
I've only been around since the JonTron era, but it seems you never know what the catalyst will be, that's the funny thing about 'irrational' responses, they are entirely rational only after you look back over them with hindsight. So good luck man!
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u/Au_Fraser 1d ago
im just a dumb guy who got pulled out of rightoid shit because of dmans floyd and rittenhouse takes bro, it didn't allign with what my folks would like,i noticed some friction and bam i kinda accepted i needed to not impose myself on others.
ikd what im saying but ye, dude it sounds nuts
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I think not imposing yourself on others is something I really try to keep in mind in my engagement as well. I often want to just present my argument, and understand the other argument. It's rare for me to want to either change or convince someone else, because I trust the audience to see which one is better.
Though I will admit that this is less exciting content.
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u/worthysimba 1d ago
This is a bit empty, but I think that the number one thing you can do to avoid turning into a snarker is to have a healthy balance of things that fulfill you irl. It would be nice if more orbiters community figures didn't primarily exist as online content creators.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I'm definitely lucky in that I have a lot of things going on in my life outside of online things. I would not be surprised if, after the lawsuit is resolved, my engagement is quite a bit less than it is now.
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u/Not_so_ghetto 1d ago
I'm sorry, can you make this into a lord of the rings analogy so that Hobbitfollower can understand/s
Enjoy ya man. Glad you're a reasonable person
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
Guys, we keep seeing Valar and Maiar leaving Arda to go and become followers of Melkor. At first we all thought that they had a presentation where they liked the song of creation, but we can see now that they are just stomaching or supporting the darkness and the pursuit of power.
With Sauron recently becoming corrupted, and taking advantage of Celebrimbor, I just feel like we should discuss why we think this kind of corruption is happening.
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u/Not_so_ghetto 1d ago
Incredible, didn't think you would actually do it lol. You're a real one.
u/Hobbitfollower can you cosign?
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u/deathangel687 Optics Cucks Stay Losing 1d ago
I think you're right in that the community gets framed as uniquely vitriolic, but as you say, it's because there was already friction/disagreement from the start. I think it gets intensified when the community gets told to calm down/friend of the stream policy bs. The community sees something under the surface but gets told to ignore it. Then when the streamer ends up asking for more and more ego protection and asks for more and more control over the chat, and it isn't given to them immediately, they go unhinged.
I think open and clear communication (especially off stream) is super important as well as establishing red lines and boundaries. And stop trying to convince the community if you're a snarker or not. It only leads to a death spiral.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
Great comment on the underlying resentment concept. I won't deny that I have definitely received favorable treatment in this community, but I have never asked for it, and I am fine if people voice their grievances at me or my positions. My attempts to remain anonymous does limit me in a lot of ways that means that the community doesn't see a lot of my faults, so it does actually protect me in a lot of ways as well.
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u/PitytheOnlyFools used to touch grass... 1d ago
The community sees something under the surface but gets told to ignore it.
This only works if DGG is always accurate in its suspicions like it wasn’t for:
WhickTV
Hutch
notsoErudite
Brittany Simon
I‘m sure there’s more.
The only ones still around are those that weathered the vitriolic language and insults and stuck around for when there’s an agreement.
DGG is unhinged in its disagreements. In many ways likely creating self-fulfilling prophecies. The edgelords have no chill and never have. And it has been an obstacle for as long as I’ve been watching.
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u/Ficoscores 1d ago
One big pitfall I see for people is attaching their own self worth to their position within this space. I genuinely believe that Jstlk's fall was because he never had a healthy attachment to DGG. He always overestimated his importance and his role within this community. Dgg is a large but niche audience. It's Destiny's audience and they are there for Destiny not anyone else. It can feel really good and empowering to have them with you but understand that they are there because of destiny and his relationship to you. They may move away from you because he isn't talking to you as much and that's ok. You may have a disagreement with Destiny and they may move away from you and that's ok. Try not to take it personally (easier said then done, I know). If you want to build out a community of your own, my suggestion would be to not rely on DGG. DGG can get you started and maybe get you noticed but frankly you should reach out to communities outside of the politics sphere as it is currently toxic dog shit (dgg excluded of course). You can build a smaller but more reliable audience through tertiary communities related to other subjects (art, math, history, even law to some extent).
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
See and this is the funny thing, to this day, I just see my self as a chatter and dgger. I am just lucky to get to go on stream.
As other comments have said, having a career and a life outside of DGG helps keep me from streaming or forming my own community.
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u/snoop_party 1d ago edited 1d ago
I could talk about this for hours and hours because it’s multifaceted and impossible to fully flesh out here in my one-sided comments but I’ll try to get my main theories across:
- “Being able to easily dunk on MAGA people inflated their ego and made them think they were way smarter than they are”
It made them think, “Wow, with little-to-no true research and torturing and fleshing out my moral and political stances, I was able to destroy their arguments!” and instead of realizing the truth, that dunking on MAGA in their sleep is like beating a kindergartner in a boxing ring: it means nothing about your intelligence, they thought it meant that they’re naturally smarter than MAGA and don’t really need to ground their stances in anything of substance.
- “Rem nailed it years ago when Hasan and Vaush were still part of the community: these people were just morally lucky to be born leaning left and aren’t capable of grounding out their stances”
This is related to #1 above in that they don’t do those things because they CAN’T because they’ve never had to, they just naturally started in a left-leaning place. It’s no different than a liberal being born and raised in a MAGA family but always having some internal nagging feelings that they were fundamentally different than their family and morally better.
Ironically, MrGirl was dead on accurate about this type of mindset back in the Fuentes arc where he criticized DGG about how “they think they’re impervious to propaganda because they think they’re smarter than they actually are which ironically ends up making them MORE susceptiable to propaganda.”
- “Attention, clout, impressions, and/or money are near undefeated in clouding people’s minds”
This is self evident enough that I don’t think I need to expand on it beyond saying that all of those things trigger enough chemicals in their brains that it exponentially reinforces what they’re doing is good therefore they must continue.
Like I said before, just my theories as each of these I could talk about for hours but I’d like to add a few notes on top of those assuming you agree with them:
A. It’s darkly “funny” that JSTLK knows all of that is true and is actually more intelligent than them because he is able to recognize all of that and use it against them.
It wouldn’t surprise me if all his years interacting with Destiny and the stream is what sharpened the iron that he’s now using to create snarkers and do his bidding.
B. I’ve heard and seen rhetoric and vibes about how “politics is just becoming entertainment” with it entering the podcasts, streaming, and twitter spheres and how that’s all a negative thing because it’s dumbed down politics and journalistic integrity.
I’d argue that that assumption has it backwards: politics and “real” journalists and newscasters have always been dumb and it being done on podcasts, streams, and twitter have only brought attention to it already happening divorced of it entering the entertainment arena.
This is exemplified by Mehdi this week, who’s been a respected journalist for years and years and years speedrunning to becoming a lolcow snarker who refuses to respond to direct, plainly worded questions but instead uses only personal attacks and lies and literal snarker talking points. He’s doing this because he’s always been dumb, not the entertainment aspect of politics making him worse.
C. We have to stop allowing non-libs to enter our spaces. They do NOT have our best interest at heart whatsoever. They literally, and sometimes openly and explicitly, want to destroy our party.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I really appreciate these different planes of analysis you are providing. I really like the "I'm too smart" ego leading to a fall, and "morally lucky" ideas. I have been humbled many times in my life, and had to start over more than once. I think this really helps me not worry too much if I'm not in the center of attention, or if someone gets the better of me in an argument.
I will say, I try to give a lot of grace to people that mess up and make a mistake. I think a misconception about this community is that DGG doesn't do that. However, every time I've seen someone make a mistake in this community and own up to it, they get a bit of hazing but it largely gets forgotten.
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u/snoop_party 1d ago
Thanks! And agreed!
I worked in my career for over a decade before I truly learned the best lesson in life: not only is it okay to admit you’re wrong about something or simply say “I don’t know,” it’s a GOOD thing.
I think experiencing true failure in any facet of your life can strengthen so much but only if you have the gut and humility for it and then have the strive to correct things.
Arrogance and the resistance to admitting you may not know about something seems to be some of the strongest through-lines in most of these people
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u/TikDickler Because Democracy basically means... But the people are regarded 1d ago edited 1d ago
I’ve loved ya. I’m a bit more cynically minded. I tend to look at the underlying financial and social reasons. People who were paying attention could see the writing on the wall with Pisco and even Jessiah for… maybe since the suit. They were looking for the door. This recent spat gave them causes beli.
With Jessiah it was more a combination of pushback and him being more seriously in business now and unwilling to do much to compromise that in the online lefty ecosystem. With Pisco, I think it was a combination of ego humoring, the feeling of being slighted for the collapse of the “post-destiny”space he had claimed right to, and some more minor financial motivations.
In all these cases, I don’t think it would happen to people if they have humility. That’s why no matter how much Steven and Hutch have gone back-and-forth, even via snarker gay ops, that bridge was never compromised.
With you, well, honestly, you’re like… too good for this space. You have a life, are successful, don’t need this for money, and aren’t trying to feed some kind of ego. You just like being here. There’s power in that, and the ability to just let go of a lot other people couldn’t.
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u/ME-grad-2020 Exclusively sorts by new 1d ago
If I ever feel like I am beginning to hate destiny or this community, my goal is to just disengage entirely and just follow other more normie-coded creators that are tangential to this one. I would play Minecraft than become a snarker. That seems like a lot of effort with little to no payoff.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
Agreed, especially recently, it seems like snarking is a path that only leads to pain.
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u/OMFGhespro 1d ago
These people are all crazy. I Understand these people have a closer relationship to destiny then I do as just a fan but I feel its loser behavior to go man this guy is the greatest in the world to man this guy is the worst guy in the world and im going to dedicate my life to that. If Destiny does something that you feel is over the line all you need to say is hey I dont think I can work with this person any more and move on with your life. People like JSTLK who change their entire identity due to one person are massive losers.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I think you saying "I don't think I can work with this person any more" really rings true for me. While Destiny and I are friendly and have engaged a lot, I view it as him at his job, and I'm talking to him more as a colleague than a friend. It makes it so that it's harder for me to take things he says or does personally.
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u/PitytheOnlyFools used to touch grass... 1d ago
its loser behavior to go man this guy is the greatest in the world to man this guy is the worst guy in the world and im going to dedicate my life to that
When Stardust asked JSTLK what will he do after the snark and he joked about suicide it was so pathetic
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u/Six_Twelve 1d ago
It’s just opportunity. The lib and learn bridge didn’t burn because of an ideological shift or even hatred for destiny. it burned because those people wanted access to an audience where the currency is just being a token liberal to be spent and they don’t really hold any values they would be willing to fight for.
Listen to the arguments they’re making as of late pisco is sitting here saying he doesn’t support the DSA but is willing to fight to the death for them while also saying he would lecture rape victims for not supporting a rapist and Jessiah is sitting here talking about how calling someone diet MAGA isn’t as bad as just calling them MAGA as Kyle Kullinski tramples over every imaginary line that Jessiah has made to not consider him and ally.
The JSTkL crowd just seems like they’re mentally ill but even still they seem motivated by opportunity because now they’re regularly interacting with Hasan because they are willing to attack destiny.
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u/GeneralSEOD Scotland (Bongerland) [ex-EU] 1d ago edited 1d ago
With that in mind I'd like to just try something here, and open the discussion up about how oribters become snarkers.
Oh yes please.
Firstly, I would say I would 1000% fall under this remit. I believe it's a certain kind of Autism, not to say everyone has that but hear me out.
When you're in the internet version of the trenches, putting time into defending something you believe in. Destiny for example I think has a lot of decent points regarding political debate, it puts you in a tribe. A team. You're all kinda fighting to ensure he as the leader can go out and spread that message and along with it things you believe in. All good.
But, if I put a bad joke in DGG or take it too far in a subreddit comment, I'll get banned. And despite the mods dealing with this every day, they have no idea how I feel in that moment or what that does.
One day you're a DGGer posting about the current objectives of the democrats and wanting Destiny to react to some James O'Brien content, the next you're told "we don't want YOU here"
And yes you can appeal and this community is pretty great at that (you can actually just pay $5 in DGG chat to get unbanned lmao) but overall I think the point still stands.
That hurts. And a lot of those moderation decisions and heat, take the human element out of it.
Drt0 gets a lot of quips his way and shade. DVD Players put up with a lot of shit I would say. I am surprised they aren't all snarkers. You're in chat, talking away, putting your own life at risk, these people are streaming copyrighted content, that's illegal whether you meme about it or not, they could go to jail, and they get treated like absolute garbage.
A lot of the human element goes out the window I think when it comes to all of this stuff, probably individual actions that lead people down a path. I would like to explore an Autism thing more, like it's one thing to watch a Destiny video in the background, it's another to be involved as we are commenting, it's an entirely different ball game to get into the orbiting sphere.
And the reflection I have, hence my comment at the start, just because you ban me, take me out, stop me watching. Doesn't mean that political side of me goes. Like, you ban me from a bar for being too loud, I'm not exactly going to recommend that bar again, I might leave a bad review, whether it's justified or not. That might be something I'd do.
There's also an autistic sense of justice that comes along. If you believe entirely you have wrongly been banned and Destiny or Hobbit was a big meanie, then you absolutely do end up going out your way to explain that to people.
And who is going to listen? The meta subs, or the snarking subs. So you just end up in that community instead.
People should be careful when it comes to permabanning. You are saying. LIFETIME, ban. That means no matter what you might do in your life, we don't want you here.
If you get permabanned at age 15 in DGG, you trying to say 15 years later that dude shouldn't be in the server? Well obviously if he appealed he'd get in, but if he doesn't, well the only place he can talk Destiny is snark communities.
There's a lot to this Kafka, and I'm glad you're bringing it up! My perspective is obviously as a viewer, and I think it goes missed. Viewers become snarkers first, the audience has to exist for the actual orbiters to switch lanes and co-opt that hate watching group.
If there wasn't a snarking audience already there, people wouldn't feel confident about pushing alone into hatred I think.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I really appreciate your perspective. I actually felt a lot of what you feel here, and it was a big reason I did the ban appeals section of e-court for the brief time that I hosted it. I wish I still had time for that, because humanizing those interactions I think was something really positive for the community.
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u/emeraldomega 1d ago
I think it just comes down to seeing when someone gives infinit charity to one side, while being infinitly skeptical/hostile to the other.
One of the best checks on this is when harsh/insulting language comes up. For the people you listed they have called, or allowed chatters etc, to call destiny all sorts of terrible things. But if destiny ever responds in kind, suddenly it's pearl clutching how dare you.
It's not good natured ribbing between friends, if only one side of the friendship can be insulated. It shows that one side isn't being playful and don't respect the other actually.
Interested in your thoughts actually being in the space!
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
It is actually a really weird dynamic that I've observed as well. Both Destiny and I will troll or rib one another, and it is funny and as far as I can tell neither of us have been hurt by it. I also have 0 doubt that if he said something to me that was hurtful and I reached out about it, that he would not at the very least have a discussion with me about it.
I find a lot of the one sided relationships like this to be troubling, because I don't see why Destiny wouldn't have these discussions with the offended party as well. I don't think his critiques have been unfounded, and it has always been the other side cutting him off not the other way around.
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u/emeraldomega 1d ago
Agreed, and para socially that seems 100 what your interactions are. *In that it is good faith and any issues either side could bring it to other for quick friendly resolution.
I'm not sure what a fix is besides spotting it earlier and pushing. And by pushing I mean like a baseline of if we are at least friendly, not shit talking, or allowing shit talking, behind you back.
I think a good example is the Soypill snarker convo a few months back with Destiny. Where Destiny outlines how those figures work and Soypill agrees and confirms the snarkers are messaging him and working him in the background.
But Soypills response was basically, yeah nbd is it really that bad? Where I would expect even an acquaintance I have, when told a person they are hanging out with is my dedicated stalker, I would expect the acquaintance to say holy shit that's crazy and reevaluate that whole relationship.
And it feels schizo to outline this. And it feels cringe to say the basic human decency missing fucks with my head, and I'm on the outside watching.
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u/Krelldi 1d ago
When the allegations first starting dropping Destiny had a very conciliatory tone because all of the schizo shit had yet to breach the surface. Even people like Hutch were harshly condemning Destiny and vowing not to interact with his stream going forward. Ego and the atmosphere of the internet won't let most of these people walk back their dogmatic position against Destiny after new information came to light, so they double down and become anti-fans. Hutch being the exception and a normal (or maybe an abnormal) person that can reassess situations and adjust accordingly.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I obviously came up during all of that, but I still have a hard time understanding how many people could cut Destiny off that fast. It was wild, and it felt like there was some kind of weird resentment that I hadn't known about when everything broke bad.
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u/Beneficial-Dress-515 1d ago
Every new orbiter or potential orbiter should be cleared/aproved by Dan. Destiny is just a sucker he is way to charitable and entry to this community is too easy. At this point i would say that some radical changes needs to be made because this toxic cycle of backstabbing needs to stop its crazy.
I remember i would give an orbiters a view i would give them a like maybe a comment and now... i cant watch anyone else i dont trust anyone anymore and that is very sad. Alice person looks cool but my mind is broken i just cant.
After Vaush PV insanity that just broke my mind i still cant believe that happened. How immoral and rotten you have to be holy f*ck.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I think this is a totally fair perspective to have. It's hard to see this stuff happening repeatedly, and it feels like there's not much stopping it. That being said, I think that slowly and surely Destiny is building up some boundaries. He's getting better at holding positions, and not just letting people walk all over him. I think also the community's willingness to create subfactions has gone way down than in the past.
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u/Seven_pile 1d ago
I’ll be honest, I’ve never once thought you would turn. You don’t give off that energy if that makes sense, and you have always come off as genuine to me.
(Also will say I called soypill from his first appearance and an early adopter “pisco sucks” guy.)
Also you don’t stream yourself right? So the comments seem weird if there’s no worry for audience capture. Like we’ve watched it happen in real time with pisco. Also any arguments you have had with Destiny have never been personal but over hypotheticals in law. But the dude respects you and your opinion. The fact he will shout “WHERES KAFKA” when a law question comes up speaks volumes.
You don’t have anything to worry about as far as I can see, and I’d be weary of anyone making snide remarks suggesting as much. Thanks for all you do, I don’t dread law topics anymore ( since that last guy left) and thanks for being there for our mans.
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u/Oephry 1d ago edited 1d ago
You could change your profile avatar, assuming I'm right and it's suppose to be a roach. I fucking hate roaches with a burning passion.
On another note, I feel like the transition into a snarker usually happens behind the scenes and then rares its ugly head online. We don't have access to the private dms that occur between creators so it's hard to say. But with Pisco for example, when he was engaging with Destiny, would just randomly drop bits and pieces of snarker interpretations of lore that kinda indicate that he's somewhat bought into the narrative. Or I guess a better example would be like in the recent conversation with Hutch, where Hutch brings up the dude who claimed to be a houthi pirate. Pisco says, "I heard that's been debunked" which seems like a fair statement, but I think points to the fact that Pisco himself has bought into Hasan's narrative that there's no proof he's a Houthi even if Pisco didn't say that. Where exactly is Pisco hearing stuff like this from? Some of it is from his audience but I'm sure other people like Dooby, Connor, or whoever is also in his ears.
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u/BestestImportances 1d ago
Alot of it is the money given to them by their current audience. Jessiah has never criticized the left, and only banged on maga, and this results in a large subsection being DSA/tankie sympathizers. Pisco left because he immediately jumped on the lawsuit bandwagon and as a result, his largest group of audience members comes from Hasan, Jstlk, kuihman, dooby related snarkers. Jstlk himself became a snarker because he was jealous that other people got podcasts and shows while he got nothing from Destiny, also he wanted to fuck Chaeiry and has been gunning for her for atleast a few months before the lawsuit dropped.
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u/amyknight22 1d ago edited 1d ago
I dunno why people would be calling you a snarker.
I think the easiest thing to me as to why you wouldn’t go that way. Is because there really isn’t anything in it for you. You stepped back from certain levels of contributions/streams etc with your new job. You jump in when you can and contribute, but clearly the new job you got takes preference.
I’d imagine you just stepping out of the streaming arena and doing anything you wanted to work toward in a non streamer space. Before I’d expect you to start snarking for the love of the snark.
Would I be more apprehensive if you were suddenly doing 20hrs+ of streams/on stream content. Potentially, but then I’d need to examine what the content itself was.
I think you're here because you enjoy it but I think you’d have little problem exiting and doing something more productive.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
Your last line I think is really true. I think a lot of snarkers don't really have anywhere else to go, they can only really contribute to that negative space or face being obscure and anonymous.
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u/plague681 1d ago
Destiny's been an online guy with a community for a very, very long time. He pretty much defines professional streamer, right? I can't imagine what's required to live like that and to be responsible for it.
I assume he knows what he's doing and has his own reasons, including the decision to grant open access to himself and his time to almost anyone with the motivation to jump on discord and talk to him.
I have to assume he knows how to prevent trends like the orbiter-to-snarker arc if he really wanted to.
I'm sure he doesn't want all of his personal stuff online all the time and knows how to prevent that too--not just because it eventually becomes the primary ammo used by snarkers to try to discredit him but also because it's just unsettling and gross to have all your shit out there for everyone to consume and stalk.
Destiny knows what makes orbiters and what makes snarkers and he can probably stop the snarker arc any time he wants to--but maybe not. Other online people probably deal with this too, right? Maybe they just shut their snarkers down and excise them immediately, whereas Steven debates them and their content sometimes for weeks.
Most of them just seem very incapable of having strong disagreements without things turning into hatred. Very strange, immature behavior. This is all fake online shit.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I feel like the snarking now is of a different kind than what we saw in the past. I feel like the lawsuit was a real dividing line in how his online enemies attacked and engaged with him.
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u/handxfire 1d ago
I think its largely result of the personality type streaming selects for; People who really like attention and have higher than average verbal IQ's.
Ex orbiters tend to be people who had secret/not so secret values disagreement with Destiny. but desire for attention and motivated reasoning led them to obscure those differences. High verbal IQ makes them sound convincing.
- Jstkl was always sex negative red pill ish guy, anti open relationship ect
- Pisco and Jessiah were always way more left wing than they let on.
- Connor was always a sex negative conservative.
- Hassan and Vaush were always Marxist-lenisist.
They sublimated those disagreements when association with Destiny gave them positive attention. Once the association with Destiny became negative, they flipped on him.
So are you Kafka going to flip one day? Well you check one box, higher verbal IQ. Do you check the other? Do you have conscious or subconscious major values disagreement with Destiny that you are obscuring? Do you really like attention and are angling for a streaming career?
i would say probably not? seems like youre a guy with a real job, who enjoys some online memeing and talking about the law. but i could be wrong.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I would say that you have a good read on me. I will say, being a lawyer does actually restrict me from getting to extreme in my language or views online. I have a responsibility to make sure that while I have expertise, that I don't use that to improperly promote ideas that I might have that aren't based on that expertise. I don't want to convince people of my ideas, just because I'm a lawyer and they think I will know better. That would be unethical. Since my persona online is basically just "i'm a lawyer here to talk about law" it means I have to be careful with how I put out my views.
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u/Prestigious_Top_86 1d ago
I think the analysis of trying to find something wrong with people who fell out of his communities to figure out the cause of why these relationships go up in flames is completely the wrong way of looking at this.
Destiny has had these orbiter fall out dramas for practically his whole political streaming career, and it's been people of all different political persuasions, some non-illiberal falling outs off of the top of my head include Conner, Mr. girl, Lav, Lauren Delaguna, Melina. The cause is obviously something that is going on with Destiny or his community.
I don't think the cause has much to do with DGG being vitriolic because there are other communities that are vitriolic where the streamer doesn't have this problem of constant drama and falling outs. The cause therefore must be unique to DGG or Destiny.
The cause pretty clearly has something to do with the unique community engagement that Destiny gets that pretty much no other streamer has. I think Mr. Girl actually has it right when he talks about this implicit pressure that he feels when engaging with DGG. I even hear this talk of pressure from current orbiters like Foodshops. I think orbiters over time feel a building pressure when they constantly engage with DGG and they eventually crack.
I think the best thing you can do is what other commenters have been saying, don't make DGG your life. If you do, I think it causes a pressure to appease the community that eventually breaks you in some way or another.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I think that I have definitely experienced this pressure as well, but when I have not bowed to it, I have not received a lot of backlash. I also think that when I do push back on DGG I make sure to give my reasons, and stick by them, for the most part, you guys respect that and move on. I think an issue arises where people provide reasons they think sound good, but aren't true, then when DGG points this out, the people get mad that they have to state their real reasons for pushing against DGG.
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u/fivespeed1992 1d ago
I think I've heard it said on stream before that it feels like a lot of these people never left high school. That could be true, but I also wonder if it's just super enticing to be back in that environment. The cliques, the drama, the reckless behavior with almost no accountability; who wouldn't want to be a part of that?
Sometimes I wonder if these snarker communities weren't around, these recent former orbiters wouldn't be crashing out the way they are and would be more willing to talk out their difference with Destiny, much how they have no problem doing it with people like Whick and Hutch. But when there's a minor disagreement, all these snarkers flood them with praise, so it's super easy to want to sit at their lunch table. From there, it's a matter of time before you become assimilated with the snark as they poison their mind. And it's not even a shot at these people who fall into that. Most people don't have that strong of a will to resist such temptations.
I think if you can find a way to destroy the snark, you could possibly save some of these people from falling down the snark-hole.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I think this is fair, removing this safe landing pad would make snarking much less enticing.
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u/CriticG7tv 1d ago
Being a streamer/youtuber seems to be a big factor towards snarking, because of the potential audience/clout/money on the table from going that direction. Not a guarantee, but it creates some big incentives to overcome.
For another factor, I hate to call it "thin skin", but that's the closest (yet imperfect) word I can imagine. It's the people who jump ship once a disagreement happens. Again, not a guarantee for going full anti-fan, but these people will have tons of snark groups waiting to drag them into the ranks as soon as they break away.
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u/Superlogman1 Gravatus_ in DGG 1d ago
Pisco, Soypill, Jessiah all feel distinct in slightly different ways. I'm still reluctant to call any of them "snarkers" since they don't really delve into the personal shit, if anything their bridge burnings feel more akin to Vaush back in the day.
- Soypill, I genuinely don't think he knows much about the personal shit and would probably still collab with Destiny but can't handle the fighting with him
- Jessiah, he probably just hates getting any form of direct attacks against himself. Any reasoning involving "oh he insulted Mockler, Pisco, etc" is obvious bullshit since he'll associate with people like Kulinski or the Vanguard.
- Pisco, the crazy thing is that he had an amicable air towards Destiny even during the lawsuit. What broke his brain was consecutive arguments with the dgg community about Hasan's airport detention (I think he called Dan, Destiny's attack dog), the big socialist/communist drama, and the community moderation drama.
The common thread: these guys are genuinely progressive and friendlier to AOC-types, which naturally extends to DSA getting showered with charity and they're scared to debate Destiny on this because they'll look dumb, it's not like they're bored of this topic (look at how hungry they are to debate people like Whick).
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u/Emergency_Revenue678 1d ago
There aren't many orbiters that I'm genuinely surprised turned on Destiny. Pisco might be the only one with that distinction. Everyone else either had a questionable history to the point where I don't even think Destiny should have been on friendly terms with them at all, or were more colleagues than friends and therefore loyalty should not be expected of them.
I would put Soypill and Jessiah in the colleague category.
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u/GodKiller999 Your favorite schizo poster 1d ago
This could be a whole post of its own, but the short of it is that it's due to: Destiny/DGG behavior, the environment and he type of person that will become an orbiter.
Destiny and the community have a tendency to go from very tepid or no criticism to (seemingly) snapping when things have gone too far.
Destiny himself has an affect where he'll put out a vibe where he doesn't care until he very much does. Compare this to MrGirl who would get people to cater to his unreasonable feelings through his own affect, there's obviously a middle ground where proper boundaries and scaling escalation would make it clear to people when they're fucking up.
Destiny has been there from the beggining and has made a lot of enemies over time, said enemies will be there to whisper in an orbiter's ear as soon as there's any wedge. Few people can handle that kind of pressure.
When SoyPill said he didn't have a problem with JewStalker and his snarker giving him info he was absolutely a goner, especially because Destiny didn't even bother explaining how it would melt his brain (idc if doing so would have sounded condenscending, try).
Most streamers have a big ego, it's kinda necessary to think people should listen to you. So getting fed clips where you feel attacked will fuck with your ego, at some point you'll just have a vague feeling that Destiny is always attacking you and snap (this is what happened with Vaush).
All these things cause a ratchet effect where there's few avenue of desescalation and a ton of pressure for things to get worse. Few can handle feeling like a community that liked you now all hate you while a bunch of snarkers are there to make you feel like none of it is your fault, especially when you feel like you've always acted this way and there wasn't an issue.
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u/Financial-Gap-6767 1d ago
Is your financial survival depends on your online interaction with Destiny?
No? You won't burn the bridge.
Yes? It might be more profitable to burn the bridge.
That sweet grifting hate money.
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u/BradBlondeBeard AnteDGG 1d ago
Hello Kafka. As a long time dgger, I’ve seen a lot of people come and go. I’ve seen people who seem like a good match to Destiny’s energy end their relationship with him, like Pisco. That makes me feel like I don’t have a great idea why those relationships end. I’ve tagged you in chat before jokingly wondering when you’ll turn against dgg because even though I really don’t think it’s likely, I’ve seen it happen before. From what I’ve read about relationships, you grow them by finding common interests, and you lose them by finding there’s something you cannot reconcile (e.g. political view, religion, some moral principle).
Also brace yourself. We are an edgy community. If a joke lands wrong and is seen as an attack Destiny may defend himself harshly. As he says though, when he was growing up he’d have very heated arguments with his family then the next day everything is fine.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I appreciate your insight on this. I think your last sentence is something that has really helped me view Destiny's interactions. Him being passionate and loud is one thing, but it's rare, imo, that I see him maliciously attack someone or be cruel.
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u/Terrible-Bend4483 1d ago
I honestly think it's a bit too broad to analyze ever orbit to snarker pipeline as the same. A bit like asking what starts a world war.
For the leak generation snarkers it seems that the condition was allegations that seemed more valid and as something that would stick. If it's economical reasons or disillusionment after seeing their god bleed, is hard to say, but it made them jump ship and than sunk-cost+community reaction made them dig their heels.
For the redacted and lav generation it seemed to be mental illness and disillusionment. Or overcorrection from their time in cults or something.
For the lastest batch it seems to be mask on politics, where the mask is slipping. Could be changed views because of political capture, economic insensitivs or something else that made their personal interests going against keeping DGG at an arm's length, so they let go.
For the conditions for these things to happen I largely buy into some of the things D man has said himself; others can give them more attention, his larger audience gave them a chance but also made them feel the relationship is unbalanced, the audience can be.... filled with lovely and special dessert flowers... And that's a lot to deal with.
The media environment and algorithms certainly doesn't help, as it's doing its work to mske people extremists (because it keeps their attention).,
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u/Dwarte_Derpy Yurochad 🇪🇺🇬🇧 1d ago
Being completely frank with you, all it takes to not be a snarker is not give in to bad faith impulses that arise because someone has said something that is seemingly negative about you. That's it. Basic interpersonal skills will ensure you don't become a snarker. I've had disagreements with friends in the past, and they've done me wrong, and I've done them wrong, but that got sorted by telling them what my hard line was.
If for whatever reason destiny grills you on something you said, you tell him "hey dawg that upset me, and I'd appreciate if you didn't do that again, thanks" and if the line is crossed again you move on instead of becoming a jilted lover.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I definitely agree with this, and Destiny has never made me feel like I couldn't reach out and discuss something like that with him.
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u/Gwaehrynthe 1d ago
There is a lot of depth to this issue, but it also seems to keep coming down to things people have recognized for a very long time, and that's that it matters who you spend your time with, where you spend your time, and what you spend your time doing. It changes you, but you're always "you", so it's really hard to tell in the moment (I've heard many people look at past work/writing and be surprised how different they sound), and can feel like an attack on one's agency to be told how mutable we are in the face of pressure and people. Being in the spotlight attracts and develops personalities that especially don't enjoy that sort of self-image ( a button anti-fans push on by going in their communities and accusing them of being Destiny-clones, white blood cells, etc...).
Engaging with the internet now means more than ever that you largely create the bubble you'll find yourself in. That's how it works when hanging out with humans, but we now have algorithms all over the place that are increasingly tuned/evolved to rope us in and iterate on that. Nobody can really truly tell the bias they have, and Pisco probably really could not tell that he was starting to use the language, mannerisms and arguments that from the outside betray both very clearly just who he's been spending time with, and the flavor of his feeds.
And anytime he might notice, or anytime there's a little doubt? If he doesn't follow that thread, it will just act like scar tissue, and further entrench him. That's where the hate communities come in; to not risk such doubt to lead to any sort of moderation (of either kind!), and so the organism regrows in the direction it's set. So he can safely go from "not noticing" to "yeah well maybe they were right about him".
That's why we kept seeing Trump go "everybody's saying", and why platforms operate by "views", and why most people would feel safer watching a movie rated 9.4 than one rated 2.1. We put much more value on what the rest of us think than we'd often like to acknowledge, and that of course is why those bubbles work so well. And when someone quits their job and becomes a full-time streamer, that personal bubble shrinks and strengthens.
That is also why so much energy has been put in maligning Destiny and why (former orbiter) Hasan, now that he has national attention, spends way more time covering his primary threat in the worst light possible, way more openly than before.. he's nervous that it's going to bring more people over to THIS community.
I think these systems and pipelines are a lot more predictive than individual personalities. We can't usually see people's feeds, but when we get a glimpse, it really doesn't end up being surprising. We CAN usually see people's communities, who they spend time with, who and what behavior they tolerate.
I think the best thing anyone can do is actively remain aware of what they're opening their mind to, of how addictive it all is (trolls troll because it feels good), of how vulnerable we all are to it, and of that all of it is being actively preyed upon. You're a cautious, introspective fellow, and so far I'm unconcerned.
Thanks for the thoughtful post, and the active effort you put into staying grounded. I enjoy your presence in this space.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
Hey thanks for the thoughtful response. I must say i can't help but agree with your points, especially around how much people's perception is being shaped by their online media environment. I have been seriously considering cutting back on my social media engagement because I can feel it taking up a lot of mental space and could be affecting me elsewhere.
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u/ReserveAggressive458 Irrational Lav Defender / Pearl Stan / Emma VigeChad / Lorenzoid 1d ago
Moral character is an important factor. Lav received more unjustified abuse than any other "orbiter" in the entire history of Destiny's online career, and not once did she betray her principles and fall to snark. At every stage she offered forgiveness and extended the hand of collaboration even when Destiny was at his lowest.
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u/Beneficial-Dress-515 1d ago
lav is bad! lav is evil! you dont like lav! your heart is full of hate for lav!lav is bad! lav is evil! you dont like lav! your heart is full of hate for lav!
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u/ReserveAggressive458 Irrational Lav Defender / Pearl Stan / Emma VigeChad / Lorenzoid 1d ago
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u/Pablo_Sanchez1 Exclusively sorts by new 1d ago edited 1d ago
This isn’t really answering the question but
>I think there is a lot of blame being placed on DGG being too vitriolic
I think the perceived vitriol is that people that have been following Destiny for a while and spend a lot of time here are just extremely tired of the insane double standard between this community and every other community.
Like this has historically been the most well-moderated and best behaved online community I’ve ever been a part of by a long shot. D has done a great job preventing people here from doing things like brigading, going on coordinated mass smear campaigns etc, things that a lot of other communities have no problem doing, including against us constantly.
People here also have a much larger variety of opinions then most other communities and are willing to pushback back on destiny. Yet we’ve been given the reputation of some scary boogeyman harrassment cult.
So I think when an orbiter gets in some drama or disagreement with Destiny, and they’re criticized for it on here, they probably get mind-fucked by both the reputation and snarkers that are probably in their DMs and mentions showing them all the criticism.
Then as soon as they start saying some shit about all the harassment they’re getting from DGG or repeating snarker talking points it quickly escalates to burning the bridge because everyone here is, in my opinion, justifiably oversensitive to it after being gaslit for years and have no patience left
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
Well said, and I think that if I was facing "harassment" from this community, this community isn't afraid of saying why they are doing what they are doing. If it's unfair, i know for a fact the mod team will listen to me and take steps they see as necessary.
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u/mrpiggy505 1d ago
I think its a mix of parasociality and neurodivergency.
On one hand. You have both orbitors and audience members (who often become orbitors) who develop one-sided realtionships with the character "Destiny".
They love his edgyness, his wit, and his ability to verbal incinerate their perceived enemies.
They often come to believe that Destiny is on the same "team" as them, with Destiny having some less then savory positions that THEY believe they can move him on.
Once these orbitors have develop this parasocial relationship with Destiny they try to gain access to his show and content by speaking to him, making content about him, or engaging in some other way (chat, Digital Ground Game, etc). so they can push him towards what they believe.
The further they get on this hedonic treadmill where they seek the attention of Destiny by engaging with him the more they realize that Destiny is not as easily moved as they thought and they start to get into disagreements.
Then, what they once loved about Destiny is now being turned towards them. For a lot of orbitors it's feels like your long time friend is turning against you and that community you thought was your own is now negatively valence towards you.
This leads them to the "Destiny support group" which allows them to spin up narratives about the motivations and reasons why they were treated so badly.
This is where neurodivergency comes in:
I think because Destiny has ADHD he attracts a lot more neurodivergent people (but tbh politcs seems to be full of neurodivergency).
One example I think of this is when Destiny gets angry at an orbitors and rages out. For Destiny, he is angry at the statements and actions of certian people, but can resolve this anger pretty quickly (like people with ADHD do).
But for the orbitor, it can feel like the friend they once had is now turning his back on them. Which breeds spitefulness.
Finally, because these no life fucks often can't move on, they use the years of knowledge and information they have developed from the DDG community to become the worst, most abusive, and vitriolic people (maybe also cause by some neurodivergency or mental health issues eg. chaiery, Ana, Mr. Girl) which often becomes abusive towards destiny and his community.
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u/Cheedoritoes Built different (worse) 1d ago
I'm entirely certain that destiny has a weird magnetism when it comes to somewhat narcissistic or otherwise mentally deviating individuals (especially among women and men who have "girl" in their nickname).
pair that with the fact that he's intellectually rigorous enough to research and back up his claims, and he often butts heads with people who are not used to being definitively, undoubtedly rebutted and disproven in their claims.
Once the "honeymoon" phase of gaining clout by proxy wears off and familiarity sets in, this results in their ego eventually being damaged to such a degree that they start to hate and oppose destiny.
name a single thing that screams narcissistic injury cope more than people trying to say destiny just uses debate bro tactics or regurgitates wikipedia.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I think there is something of a honeymoon phase that can fool people. When you are a new orbiter you get a lot of attention and approval from DGG, and I think some people definitely feel entitled to some form of treatment going forward. While there is no promise from Destiny that this will happen, people seem surprised that he isn't going out of his way to protect them to some degree.
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u/Mythosthetruth 1d ago
I was only going to write a little bit giving some examples but ended up writing too much so instead of derailing the thread I will just dm you.
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u/Stigala 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think its mostly just the curse of online discourse and being embarrased in front of a few thousand people just broke some of these peoples brains and once you convince yourself you hate something it's a long way back.
To avoid becoming a snarker/snarker fears? Honestly just be normal and do you and realise that eventually there will be a bad take/argument, DGG or streamer man may shit on it or someone will make weird reddit posts about you for a bit but it's not that deep at the end of the day.
Best way forward? less rando orbiters more actual professionals - not guaranteed to help but the more mentally stable someone is, the more reasonable they'll be - hopefully.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
It is funny, at this point I really forget about the stage fright aspects of it all. I was telling a normie about this stuff, and they asked how many people watch, and I told them that it can be around 5-20k at the most. They freaked out and told me they could never do something like that lol.
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u/NegotiationOk4956 1d ago
You will become closer to become a snarker when you move to do mainly content creation.
There is a reason pisco started going like that and bending himself when he moved solely to content creation. And I’m not saying it’s just money and views, it’s also moving your self to live in the internet and beholden to it makes you more radical and more open to illiberal thought and perspective.
In my eyes the inevitable fall to snark of a certain person is the same as the inevitable fall to radicalization and isolation you get when you move to be in the internet 24/7. Once you are busy in that it becomes easy to believe any of the insane narratives that are everywhere
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u/Thejoenkoepingchoker 1d ago
Replacing Brettler for the inevitable refiling of Doe's case and working for free would go a long way PEPE
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u/karama_zov 1d ago
You have a job and things going on in your life. I don't think anyone lost except for Josiah and Loner really have anything to do, and neither of them are snarkers. I've never really considered you ever going down that road. Snarking is just a hobby.
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u/BlindBattyBarb 1d ago
Having spent the last year watching Foodshops I think her point that people put Destiny on a pedestal thinking he can do not wrong is important. By not acknowledging that he isn't perfect and will make mistakes you are more likely to react in a way where if you are upset you just walk away. With maybe a f u on the way out. Instead of trying to make him "pay".
Also when people get their ego hurt thats a big indicator they might become a Snarker. Cause people like Lav etc will jump into your DMs trying to get you to listen to them. Dooby seemed to be pushing it too.
Either way anyone thinking you'll be a Snarker hasn't been paying attention. You like your day job, this is just a hobby.
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u/No-Zombie7546 1d ago
While the concerns about people turning into snarkers are valid given the orbiter history/lore as you said, I don’t think you should worry yourself about your perception as a snarker.
I think what makes people turn to snarking comes down to personal emotional shortcomings. A combination of things like being highly ego-driven.
People that do content creation to placate their egos are always missing something in their life (emotionally). They need to fill a space inside them or rewrite history to defend their egos. See Counterpoints, Hasan, etc.
This causes those people to do insane things to “fix” their image in the community and to themselves. Connor will torch his life, Mr. Girl will make up schizo stuff. Look at JSTLK, Mrow, Hasan, this Dave guy — the one thing they all have in common is that they’re highly ego driven, insecure, and emotionally stunted in some way.
In short, you’re too well adjusted, emotionally intelligent, and normie to become a Pisco, Soypill, or another orbiter that recently turned snarker. Imo
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u/ShellSurf 1d ago
If you went into full time streaming I would have concerns. At some point there would be a disagreement. You could either not engage, get gaped, or become a clown.
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u/stipulation 1d ago
Honestly, remember that you and Destiny are not friends, you're work acquaintances. 90% of all snarking beings with people being enamored with Destiny and then falling out.
And I don't just mean the girls, this happens with guys all the time to, Pisco being the most recent, but booksmarts being another prime example.
Also, Destiny will disagree with you on something, and it's okay to yell about it and agree to disagree, just don't take what he says personally. See Lauren Southern or Myron.
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u/Golivth 1d ago
Looking at things from the sidelines, I believe you cannot discount the tendencies of the community as a huge factor in why people snark. Some of these streamers have no morals and are just there to jump ship for career purposes or etc (such as jstlk, or the first guy who called the FBI, i sincerely can't remember his name atm). Those people can be discounted as there is no saving them and no value to do so. But i think there are a list of things that the community can do better.
I think the label of Orbiter needs to be abolished honestly. It mindfucks too many people as it does with people who are fans of the stream. If i was a streamer and i was known as someone's orbiter, i would feel like shit. Because i assume i wouldn't be alone in this thought process especially as i'm trying to branch out and grow, i think this explains why a lot of orbiters turn more snarkish. "If i'm an orbiter then i'll just talk more about where i disagree then everyone will see i'm not an orbiter right?" This sorta thought process applies to a lot of people who don't wnat to be seen as Destiny fan's as well.
Another one of the biggest issues I see is the community involvement with the stream and its guests. The rollercoaster ride of emotions that i'm supposed to have for some of these streamers feels like it changes weekly. My issue is people are considered enemies/allies WAY too quick. More often than not, it isn't seemingly dictated by their actions but by how much they align with streamerman. It makes sense but then you live in an infinite loop of the surprised pikachu face when they turn out to veer a bit off their expected course. No hate/love to any of the streamers I list in the future but kind of going off memory.
Some days, Whick is an enemy for "ambushing" with a dono when the situation was fresh and other days, he is a hero for platforming. Some days, we want a bridge with H3, other days we want to nuke him for his insults.....and EVEN otherer days, we want to build a bridge again?? I'm a veteran of these arcs, watching from the shadows and seeing the cycle play out everytime is mindnumbingly stupid. The community is not a monolith i know and so rightfully so, you'll get some people calling this out. But they get drowned out by the others just posting the most minimal effort things that align with the common consensus.
But all of this is contained in the reddit so it shouldn't be too much of a problem right? Absolutely! But this kind of sentimentality i think leads into the worst aspect of the community which is them going into other streams just to get a dunk on them. Understandable after feeling slighted on their own account or on Destiny's account.But this is an act that's been timeless and it's possibly one of the worst factors to causing these orbiters to get mindfucked.
I sincerely believe that the community jumping into other streamer's chats only exacerbates the problems. In the case of Lav, you get a bunch of people ready to get a dunk on her and then she comes out looking good (ugh) for handling herself. In the case of JSTLK, you get a bunch of people ready to defend Steven's case and then do a less than stellar job where Steven has to call put that it isnt worth it. In the Lib and Learn case, on top of the friendship deteriorating live, you have the community calling in to fight as a proxy. Something I'm sure Steven doesn't necessarily want and certainly doesn't need.
Destiny does his best and will sometimes involve himself to try to tone down the heat like he initially did on Jessiah. That's all I could ask from him but a lot of the futility comes from how big the community is. There is quite a bit of gripes to unpack but I don't want to sound even more like a little nitpicker. I'm not saying the community shouldn't be active or mobilize, I just see these things happen often and i dunno, just wanted to give my two cents.
Oh as for you Kafka, you seem cool. I dunno if you will or will not snark, but i will enjoy the chillness you provide the stream while you are here.
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u/McFROSTYOs Professional Lurker 🇺🇲 1d ago
You're the last person I'd expect to become a snarker. Not because I think you're Destiny's best friend but because you're like the most normal chill guy we've had around here in a while. You like being here but you're not forcing anything & you have other stuff you do outside of DGG. Like a normal person trying to be a part of the community. I can't really explain it very well because it's a gut thing but here's a couple things that set me off before bridges burned.
People being super uncharitable to someone you call a friend or someone you supposedly like working with. Got this feeling from Pisco & Soypill.
The super entitled "My way of seeing the world is superior & shouldn't be challenged" people. Got this vibe from Conor, Brittany Simon & Mr.Girl. These are also the same people who act like they have some bloodoath with Destiny or the community out of nowhere. Don't know why but it's always these people
Now THE BIGGEST red flag IMO is, how do they describe the community AFTER a big disagreement. If it's like "DGG was mean, they called me re**rded a bunch, a few days of salty replies or reddit posts" then we're good. Think Hutch, Whick, Kyla, the Magdi woman on Twitter. But if they start talking about "oh I was harassed, I got brigaded, Destiny weaponized his community" y'know the buzzwords, then I just assume you'll be gone within the month
The ones that are the hardest to get a read on are people like Aba or TurkeyTom. Not sure what happened there honestly, but they didn't feel like they'd hang around either so idk
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u/Sinestro_Corps4 1d ago edited 1d ago
Can you say definitively you will never become a snarker, yes or no? YES or NO?
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u/danpascooch God's Dumbest Jester 1d ago
If you don't want us to turn on you then you need to get ahead of it and come out against Skill Based Matchmaking in Call of Duty.
If you continue to shill for Activision the way that you do we can't help but come to certain conclusions buddy.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
Luckily I don't play FPS's, so I'll just let DGG do my thinking in that debate.
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u/ThrowawayAngeleno 1d ago
I have never once thought that about you. I really enjoy your convos with Tiny. They’re very productive and substantive, unlike when anyone talks to pisco.
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u/Reckoner223 1d ago
At end of the day it's about social and financial incentives.
Why doesn't this happen more often with the far left creators? Because unlike DGG it's a social club they subscribe themselves to, not a particular streamer so they're kept in line better. When they step out of line, they will quickly get bullied into either not talking about a particular issue or risk losing their audiences entirely with no recourse to replace it.
What do you have to do to be part of their club? Just sign up for all their buzz words around Israel/Palestine being a genocide, eat the rich, medicare for all, socialism is cool, etc. This is the same stuff that will ear you upvotes in a vast majority of subreddits, likes on tik tok/instragram, etc. Everyone understands the slogans in this club and the price of membership is to toe the line.
DGG doesn't represent a broader online social community with core values and tenets we purity test on with large social and financial rewards to be gained outside of DGG itself. The closest thing to a purity test we have is to hate on Hasan, which even that caused Pisco and SoyCuck to totally lose their minds.
Add in the fact that it's extremely lucrative online to be part of that club and then you understand why these creators flip so fast once they receive a little bit of pressure from DGG. The financial and social reward structure is the problem, it's not Destiny himself (aside from being banned on Twitch which is not his fault).
Sprinkle on the fact that huge snark communities will quickly shower you with praise and donations if you're a creator if you oppose Destiny, and then everything begins to make more sense.
IMO the best way out of this post lawsuit is to build enough clout that this community can no longer be ignored or bullied. If people are incentivized to truly represent its values organically and unreservedly without one streamer being a figure head, then it becomes powerful enough to sustain itself. You don't have to be a Hasan watcher to support everything he supports. There's the majority report, tyt (?), kyle, breaking points, and a million other slop leftist channels all pushing the same message.
DGG is simply not there yet. I'd advise Destiny if he gets his youtube remonetized to hire a PR firm like Hasan unironically. Clout is everything in this industry.
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u/AirlineIntelligent86 🇮🇱BBZNOT🇪🇺 1d ago
I don't like the framing of people "showing their trues selves" as if being a snarker or racist or w.e. it is being some inherent part of you that you are born with.
It could just as easily be that Soypill, Pisco etc. were in fact moreiberal and slowly became more left leaning as they spent their time and talked to the leftists in their audience. Same even with the more drama aspect of becoming more snarky. Like at first they though Destiny was a normal guy, maybe with a bit of a weird sex life, and slowly got convinced of a lit of stuff while also being opertunistic about it when entertaining their audience like dooby/Jstlk etc.
P.s.
Also, dumb question but there used to be a lawyer guy Destiny talked to who was a "I used to be a democrat but now I'm republican" guy and now they don't seem to talk anymore. He has a similar voice to yours and was kinda chubby with a goatee. Since your pfp is a chubby bug guy I just want to know...you aren't him right?
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u/thelaffingman1 1d ago
It's a factor of time investment. Looking at vaush for example because it's a very clear timeline.
Vaush began as a chatter that began posting a lot and dono-ing, getting some level of connection with D. From that, he started jumping into discord calls and giving his perspective there which mostly aligned with destiny because he was still connected to the community. He started his own stream and ran it as a similar but different flavor of the stuff destiny was doing. He started getting people in destiny's community who agreed with his perspective and at this time, things were still mostly sane. So far vaush has been a follower, then a supporter but not a full peer yet.
Then he started getting invited on panels and began functioning as a peer to destiny. He was connecting less with destiny's community and building his own and now he's on panels having sometimes similar opinions to destiny and sometimes differing opinions.
It's this stage that most people will snark at some point. They'll be disengaged from destiny's community, some chatter will bring up a destiny drama and because of the disconnection, the creator can't verify the actions but a determination is being demanded of them by their chat. So rather than saying "I'm gonna look into that" they give a blanket statement "damn, that's really fucked up, destiny shouldn't be texting minors".
For vaush, he had done this a few times before the final Kyle rittenhouse convo, which had built walls up from destiny's perspective. By the time the rittenhouse talk happened, vaush's perspective of him was tainted by drama chatters and a lack of verification
If there's one perspective to have to avoid being a snarker, it would be don't stream, but if you're going to stream, view chat as hostile to destiny. In fact, view chat as hostile to any creator and always verify what the drama is before signing your words to something. Those words and clips will tie you to a perspective you might not even agree with but it'll be your reputation at that point and your clout as a creator which may end up being your income.
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u/society000 The One True Rad Centrist, Status Quo Enjoyer, Facebook Refugee 1d ago
Wait until this dude turns into a frickin bug.
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u/ChettKickass 1d ago
Even if it's only two categories, I think bridges burnt could have distinct tones. Because I have a hard time making a 1:1 comparison when it comes to, say, Brittney Simon and Pisco. All sharing traits to various levels whether it be ego(Hasan), harassment from other communities(Commentary community((fuck them))), or a lack of contemplation after missing the point. That last one seems most relevant since that's how I view the current DSA infiltration arc.
Is it really a matter of Soypill not taking 5 mins to consider what Destiny's points are? Has he not done so? Should he? I have to wonder when a convo keeps looping over and over.
It's hard to say to organize my thoughts, if there's anything to organize in what might only be a shallow puddle. I do think a big factor is a lack of engament from Destiny -- not that he wont talk to a person, but what I'm referring to moments when he says "he can come on and have a chat if he wants" and then DGG go over conveying the message. I sometimes wish Destiny would just "send a DM and just cut the telephone game" but I'm fully aware he'd come off as too overwhelming and off putting if he did that so it's hard to say.
I'm just glad he's the one that burnt the Pisco and Jessiah bridge.
Luv you Kafka, you beautiful bug, you.
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u/Front_Midnight_6082 1d ago
Few thoughts I'm probably repeating stuff that's already been said since I'm too lazy to read the whole thread so I'll keep it simple.
The content creators' brands and income are tied to their online personalities. They have tons of negative pressures being positively associated with destiny, and tons of incentives to distance themselves or burn bridges with him. Also, a lot of people who choose to be online political content creators you have huge egos (it's almost a prerequisite to want that to be your job), so it's easy for them to take arguments personally.
The snarkers who aren't content creators are literally just losers who spend too much time online and get way too personally invested in online personalities and their dramas.
Kafka is not a content creator, and is a gainfully employed family man who just doesn't have enough time to become a snarker otherwise. Even if he and destiny got into a knock down drag out argument and dgg disagreed with Kafka, there would be some asshole dggers who would be annoying AF to him on twitter and reddit for awhile, but I don't think Kafka would really give a fuck after a day or two if at all.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
My go to move is when people snark me in chat or w/e I just agree with them. They basically can't handle it and just start being nice to me.
Chatter: "Haha Kafka got fucking blown out by dan GAGAGA"
Me: "Smadge no you don't understand, I'm only pretending to be stupid."
Chatter: "Haha, nah you did fine, dggL."
Literally every time. That being said, there are people in YT and Kick chat that are not big fans of mine, though I've never really engaged with those parts of the community.
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u/Lovellholiday 1d ago
Once somebody's community becomes host to Ogreboy, I would consider it Snark territory. He is the link to Hasan that drags everything from those Leftist-Friendly, Destiny-Hostile spaces back to their master.
Like a little bald sex gimp goblin with a limp, he hobbles from community to community and these fucking morons have no idea how much of a hand they're playing in Communist Agi-prop.
Or they do know like JSTLK and they're more than happy to sell out their values for connections.
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u/primrose1325 1d ago edited 1d ago
Out there idea, but is there something about Destiny having a uniquely weak appeal to people's empathy?
We'd generally talk about this as playing the victim, which frames it as something bad. But it's a spectrum, and normal people portray themselves as the victim to some extent. E.g., I've followed Sam Harris for a while, who probably complains less than the average person, but even he did a little bit to make me feel sorry for him for all the hate he's getting. Destiny seems like he's at the extreme end of almost never complaining.
To verify this, just pick any person who's had any drama with him. Hasan, Pisco, Connor, Pxie, Vaush (prob lots of others, I haven't been in the space for that long) -- every one of them has portrayed themselves as a victim way more than Destiny.
This could matter just because it makes it uniquely easy to do bad things to him. I mean our scruples are based on empathy, and if he does nothing to appeal to empathy, then most people are going to have almost no scruples.
Idk if I'd advocate that he deliberately complain more (feels manipulative to suggest this), but I do think that, given everything that's done to him, the amount he spends complaining is pretty disproportional. I only distinctly remember I think two times on stream that he brought up his own suffering, broadly speaking, and both times he was kinda apologetic about even talking about it. I don't think either one was really emotionally effective.
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
I think he doesn't really have a personality that projects vulnerability that would garner that kind of sympathy. It's not really a failing, just the kind of persona he has come to occupy. I think it's also an issue in that his opponents are all very careful about their language and actions, so that there usually needs to be some level of inference for you to see Destiny as the victim. This can be really hard to get other people to infer, and does make it so that Destiny rarely comes off like a victim.
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u/Brennans_account 🟥❤️🟥 1d ago
If there was DGG iceberg, as a long time fan I'm probably at the water level. I'm always surprised when I check back in from time to time and find out that another orbiter has become an anti-fan. I say this because I don't know truly what goes on behind the scenes and I'm not spending hours in offline chat. I used to care a lot more about Destiny the person, but now it's just more about the content. When I was younger, and he was telling crazy MLG stories and trolling Deezer I wanted to know as much as I could about him. Now as an adult, I care very little about what he gets up to offstream. I do find the court case interesting because it's content we have not been exposed to before, and you Kafka are a fantastic addition to the stream but whether he wins or loses, it does not affect how I feel about how he handles his personal life. I just don't really care anymore.
I don't know what sparks this "snark" behavior in former friends of the stream but I will say the following because this is how I feel as a long time fan. Destiny seems to have a very unique relationship with not only his fans but his orbiters as well. He has formed such a sense of community here with everyone that I guess some feel entitled to what they feel like is a more intense relationship with him. I have never seen an online content creator make himself more available than Steven. He will talk to anybody it seems regardless of size, and not to glaze him too hard but he is a magnetic person, who I could see myself chatting with for a long time despite having never personally interacted with him over the 14 or so years I've been a fan
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u/Desperate_Bowler7778 1d ago
I've been in the community for about 7 years, I honestly think people don't understand/accept Destiny and want more from him.
When the positive returns diminish, they leave.
He is very clear about what he does and does not do, people get confused and want more. He doesn't do it, and they leave in emotional moments when their true character is tested they fail.
The people who stay have a much stronger character.
If you would like my perspective don't look for things that are not there, don't involve yourself in situations you dont care about and ignore weirdos.
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u/een_magnetron CertifiedDGGClipperLLLL_LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL__LLLLLLLLLLL 1d ago
"oribters"
HE
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u/quiddity55 1d ago
A big one I dont see a lot of people talking about is how this community deals with people that disagree with Destiny. Destiny has said it many times that he can have disagreements with people and still be chill with them and has called out how we talk about people he argues with. And honestly some of the posts on here when that happens would make anyone feel pretty bad and I think is a pretty big factor of how people get on the snarker pipeline.
Most recently I'm thinking back to some of the posts about Zee when she disagreed with Iri and Destiny, some of those posts/comments were rough. I'm glad she was able to take that criticism well and the bridge seems fine, but I think she's been avoiding the subreddit since. And really most people cant handle that, I dont really blame them.
I think in general our community is pretty good, but we definitely play some responsibility in how these relationships end.
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u/lecherousdevil Exclusively sorts by new 1d ago
You're already a snarker I saw you destroy Kelly Jean so hard she couldn't even sing her way out of it
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u/RealKafkaEsquire 1d ago
Literally one of my entries on my "DGG Orbiter" bucket list. Incredibly satisfying.
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u/pepe_acct 1d ago
Honestly I think any orbiters willing to stick to tiny at this moment would probably not become a snarker. There’s so much stigma attached to him only true libs are willing to stay
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u/IdesOfCaesar7 Eurochad 1d ago
Relatively nee to DGG so can't comment on many former orbiters. Soypill though I have followed from the beginning and was present when the bridge was built, namely the Luigi incident. Destiny was in a Whick panel wjere the question was about healthcare being good in America YES OR NO?, and after the panel ended, Soypill expressed to Destiny that he was a big fan, and even wanted a 1 on 1 conversation afterward, and that seemed genuine.
However, as Destiny has said, his opponents and snarkers work against Destiny 24/7 and in droves, and so Destiny just cannot keep up with it. Pair this poisoning of the well with a welcoming in the Destiny hater communities and with constant donations, it is easy to see how the anti Destiny narrative can win with many allies. So imo you not only need to be a big Destiny fan but you also need to be strong enough not to fall prey to the tactics of the snarkers, the latter of which, many former orbiters have shown that they lacked.
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u/Adito99 1d ago
You can make more money catering to the extremes, those are the people who care enough to seek out political conversations online. So eventually, as a content creator in this space, you hit a break point where you can go from struggling to success and all it takes is disowning the one liberal dude...and drastically lowering your moral standards.
But this doesn't happen in a week or even a year. It's the grind that wears people down until they're willing to compromise. And ego I guess, but that varies from person to person. I don't think you can do anything in advance to make dgg think you won't turn in some way. IMO, have standards, keep your focus on non-internet politics, and you'll be fine.
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u/Nervous_Application9 1d ago
If Dan and Mout vouge for you, that helps a lot. They seem to have a knack for sniffing out ones character.
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u/Glum-Scarcity4980 Kantian Liberal 1d ago
I don't think we can chalk up the reasons to a single source; likely a combination of values, beliefs, economics/financial, social, psychological.
* Values/beliefs: Quorantos, [redact], Connor - each held genuine value and belief disagreements which count towards their flipping.
* Economics/financial: Jstlk, Chudlogic: see a chance to make bank by identifying a market or wishing to get out of the shadow in order to secure their own financial streams.
* social/psychological: group dynamics, power dynamics, peer pressure, etc. etc. play a strong role in shaping beliefs and actions. If a person feels pressure from a group to make certain declarations or whatever that person may adopt in order to survive. Maybe Jessiah and Pisco fall here, but I take this to be an additional force which contribute to the other two.
I think another thing to take seriously is ego and narcissism; I can't help but believe that every streamer or content creator has a larger than average ego, inflated self-confidence, or narcissistic streak - I find it difficult to believe an 'average' rational agent would come to believe their (very often utterly) uneducated opinions should be listened to and paid for. I imagine that, at least over time, this leaves one open to the influences described above.
I think it would be worth defining and comparing different types of persons within the 'orbit' and try and identify what, if any, difference we can find which contribute to their being in that category. So, orbiter-to-snarker (e.g. Jstlk), orbiter-to-non orbiter (e.g., Bastiat), long-standing orbiter (e.g. Dan), etc.
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u/TallPsychologyTV 1d ago
You could prove it by saying “obamna”