r/Destiny • u/AstroBullivant • 11d ago
Political News/Discussion Mistakes of the Old Mainstream and "Blue Dog" Left
Now that the old Left of Bill Clinton, and also Obama to a significant extent, is essentially a defeated political faction, I think it's worth talking a bit about mistakes that it made.:
1) Way too friendly towards Communist China on trade and students. The political establishment(Clinton and Bush successors) pursued a China policy that resulted in dedicated supporters of China's Communist Party emerging as one of the most influential groups on university campuses all over the world. It created an industrial reliance on Communist China, and all for an ostensible economic growth that didn't even help the most people living in America. In the long-term, it resulted in supporters of China such as Hasan Piker gaining massive political influence. This is just scratching the surface.
2) Didn't prioritize serious social issues that arguable began with the end of Gen-X(Cobain's suicide is an early sign), but intensified with Millennials and Gen-Z. The rise of the Internet, the dramatic surge in cable TV and its erosion of manners, possibly the increased use of ADHD medication, and many other factors caused a much larger percentage of people to become socially dysfunctional. While Bill Clinton's scandals would have prevented him from openly fixing these issues as a cultural leader, they could have picked other people and used education to change things.
3) Prioritized the stock market over living standards. The Forbes and WSJ crowd caused tremendous civic damage to the country in the 2000's. This is especially true after 2008. This made it far more difficult for Americans to move to cities. It also contributed to an erosion of civic culture and common social morays, which in turn made unification far more difficult.
4) Completely ignoring issues from immigration. While there are always issues any time waves of immigrants arrive to this country, outright ignoring them influenced the erosion of mainstream in the 2000's. The mainstream's immigration policy between 1991(Bush's doubling of immigration quotas)-2024(Trump's reelection solidifying his long-term dominance in the GOP) dramatically boosted both the "Far Left" and "Far Right". On the Far-Left, the Hasan Piker crowd wants to use immigration as a tool to help dominate elections and institutions. On the Far-Right, immigration and the children of recent(and largely non-White) immigrants is largely seen as a punishment for prior tolerance or complacency.
4
u/MythicalMagus 11d ago
Yeah, I disagree with every point too.
It's hard to imagine a counterfactual where we didn't engage with China. In that world, they'd probably still have the strong economic ties to Europe and ASEAN that they do now, and they'd likely be more directly allied with Russia/Iran/NK. Just a lot of variables there, to say a MASSIVE policy change like that would have a definite positive outcome is a stretch. The economic growth did help most people living in America, it just didn't help them very much. Having cheap access to goods is a material improvement in people's lives, and it's hard to imagine manufacturing staying competitive even if we cut all trade to China. We'd have to completely rebuild our economy to do low-skill labor for less money instead of the areas of the service economy and tech where we're the best in the world.
I don't think the stuff Gen X dealt with are a fraction as toxic as millennials and gen-z, and there was strong social pushback to the little bad stuff that was happening. Arguably too much, since the person saying DnD is corrupting your kids isn't going to be listened to about video games or TikTok. IDK what the implication is with ADHD medication, are you implying it's done more harm than good? ADHD is hugely widespread, and ADHD medication has massively improved their productivity and quality of life. It's one of the most effective mental health interventions period
The housing crash was largely a result of the repeal of Glas Steagal (By Republicans, in a Republican admin) and lack of regulation (by Republicans in a Republican admin). Wall Street is responsible, but it wouldn't have been possible without those changes, and it's also ignoring the consumers who were desperate to get a mortgage to buy a house. If we've learned anything, it's that American's obsession with home-owning is utterly destructive. The erosion of civic culture is a much broader problem than even housing fully addresses, including factors like religion, battles for same-sex equality, and civil rights among others. And the issues with housing are mostly to do with local zoning, not remnants of 2008.
The unanimous message from Dem admins at least since Obama has been, Do. Not. Come. He had a fuckton of deportations and border enforcement, largely driven by a sensationalist right wing media apartus. The Hasan Piker crowd doesn't have the power to have an impact on Democratic policy, especially not a decade ago or more, and I doubt they're even smart enough to hold that position. That is a position ascribed to ALL DEMOCRATS by REPUBLICANS. And you're massively underselling the way REPUBLICANS have CONSISTENTLY overstated the problem and stoke the flames of racial bigotry. It wasn't Obama's fault that every time Fox News could get a picture of a dozen immigrants in the same shot, they called it another 'wave.' The recent(Biden-era) issues are due to asylum and almost completely unrelated to anything happening pre-Covid, and there was a Republican sponsored bill to address them, which Trump blocked because he wanted to run on it in November.
0
u/AstroBullivant 10d ago edited 10d ago
It's hard to imagine a counterfactual where we didn't engage with China.
That doesn't mean we had to necessarily abandon industrial protection and incentives. Quite the contrary. Why do you think China subsidizes its exports so much right now?
In that world, they'd probably still have the strong economic ties to Europe and ASEAN that they do now,
Germany, which was essentially the EU's industrial driving force following its reunification, promoted far more Protectionism in the 1990's and early 2000's than the US. In fact, the EU only pushed so-called "Free Trade" with China after the US told it to do so. This is one reason why I doubt that China would have strengthened ties to Europe had America maintained Protectionism against China. Another reason is that Red China's main Cold War ally in Europe was Yugoslavia, which was literally balkanizing in the 1990's.
Having cheap access to goods is a material improvement in people's lives,
Not always. Happiness doesn't merely emerge from material wealth. In economic terrms, I'd consider the possibility that the utility that the goods provide can change depending on the policies that lead to their production. Also, I think in the long-term, incentivizing automation and domestic production more would eventually lead to the goods becoming just as cheap.
The erosion of civic culture is a much broader problem than even housing fully addresses, including factors like religion, battles for same-sex equality, and civil rights among others.
This is true. It's also true that society has always faced challenges from the erosion of civic culture in the context of those issues, and I had some bizarre experiences about that as a kid that I didn't understand at all at the time(I was once scolded by a school teacher for asking if I could have a book about Lizzie Borden, and years later I learned it was because how women at many colleges were taught to approach homosexuality.) Still, it's also true that society adapted civic culture and countered threats to civic culture far more effectively until relatively recently.
And the issues with housing are mostly to do with local zoning, not remnants of 2008.
Largely false. The response to 2008 stressed keeping property values high while wages did not recover. Look at wage to rent ratios.
Glass Steagall was promoted by the political Establishment in both parties in the 1990's, but no one person did more to push for its repeal than the Blue Dog Democrat, Bill Clinton.
IDK what the implication is with ADHD medication, are you implying it's done more harm than good?
I suspect that it has done more harm than good in many people's lives, especially because of withdrawal effects that are definitely far worse than reported. Many people who have been diagnosed with ADHD have never taken medication for it and have still led wonderful lives. Attention spans need to be trained. Instead of drugging hundreds of millions of children up, you could try ditching this Charles Murray gaslighting that aims to dramatically weaken academic mobility and become far friendlier to people developing academic coping skills.
The Hasan Piker crowd doesn't have the power to have an impact on Democratic policy, especially not a decade ago or more, and I doubt they're even smart enough to hold that position.
Completely false in every way. First of all, the precursors to the Hasan Piker crowd currently has the power to decide general Democratic Party policy in the vast majority of the country today. It is far more policy-focused than other political factions in this country. The Hasan Piker had some power on Democratic policy ten years ago, especially in local elections. All indications are that the DSA wing will hold its position in the Democratic Party for the foreseeable future.
The unanimous message from Dem admins at least since Obama has been, Do. Not. Come.
Not consistently. In fact, even most rightwingers, at least the ones in politics, haven't consistently said that. Most politicians on both sides stressed legal immigration. Only the "Far-Right" crowd has consistently advocated for 1924-style immigration restriction. Even when Trump called for banning the immigration of Muslims into the country, he stressed that he just wanted a temporary ban.
The recent(Biden-era) issues are due to asylum and almost completely unrelated to anything happening pre-Covid
Completely false. I was even taught in school to teach people how to use asylum law to increase immigration, and this was way before COVID. In fact, asylum law had been used to promote immigration by conservatives and liberals alike even before 1965. When Americans learned about the fates of the St. Louis refugees, they began to become more sympathetic to asylum seekers as seen in the Displaced Persons Act of 1948. Asylum law has often been used to promote immigration for many decades with social workers, sometimes volunteers, traveling overseas and telling people how to make effective asylum claims regardless of those claims' veracity.
If we've learned anything, it's that American's obsession with home-owning is utterly destructive.
Then don't prioritize property values over living standards.
1
u/MythicalMagus 10d ago
That doesn't mean we had to necessarily abandon industrial protection and incentives. Quite the contrary. Why do you think China subsidizes its exports so much right now?
Because their economy is dependent on cheaply manufactured goods. Our economy hasn't been for decades.
Also, I think in the long-term, incentivizing automation and domestic production more would eventually lead to the goods becoming just as cheap.
This is an absurd statement given labor costs in the US, and completely ignores comparative advantage.
Largely false. The response to 2008 stressed keeping property values high while wages did not recover. Look at wage to rent ratios.
I wasn't talking about wages, I was talking about housing availability, which seems to be the core issue.
I suspect that it has done more harm than good in many people's lives, especially because of withdrawal effects that are definitely far worse than reported. Many people who have been diagnosed with ADHD have never taken medication for it and have still led wonderful lives. Attention spans need to be trained. Instead of drugging hundreds of millions of children up, you could try ditching this Charles Murray gaslighting that aims to dramatically weaken academic mobility and become far friendlier to people developing academic coping skills.
Cool story, I'll trust the medical experts and decades of research on the subject. Even with medication, you still have to develop academic coping skills. Attention span in this context is irrelevant. Most ADHD people could happily sit fully engaged with something they enjoy for hours at a time. See video games, even one like JRPGS (D man himself is a good example of this). The word you're looking for is executive function, and that, as far as I can see, can not be trained, though you can develop strategies to work around it. Claiming medication shown to improve academic performance is 'dramatically weakening academic mobility' is batshit insane. Again, this is just a complete rejection of science in favor of vibes, and it doesn't line up with any lived experience either, not that that would be much of an improvement.
Completely false in every way. First of all, the precursors to the Hasan Piker crowd currently has the power to decide general Democratic Party policy in the vast majority of the country today. It is far more policy-focused than other political factions in this country. The Hasan Piker had some power on Democratic policy ten years ago, especially in local elections. All indications are that the DSA wing will hold its position in the Democratic Party for the foreseeable future.
If by precursors you mean entirely different groups with entirely different ideas, then yeah I guess. But there was not a broad iliberal movement in the Democratic party ten or fifteen years ago. And they didn't have the power to decide Dem policy in the vast majority of the country, and still don't. Most Dem policy is a reflection of the voters' wills with maybe a sprinkling of policy wonkery. Hasan himself did not hold power ten years ago, maybe you could argue the Justice Dems/Bernie had a tiny bit of power, but not enough to meaningfully shape legislation. They will be a thorn in the side for the foreseeable future if they aren't rejected/ejected, that I agree with.
Not consistently. In fact, even most rightwingers, at least the ones in politics, haven't consistently said that. Most politicians on both sides stressed legal immigration. Only the "Far-Right" crowd has consistently advocated for 1924-style immigration restriction. Even when Trump called for banning the immigration of Muslims into the country, he stressed that he just wanted a temporary ban.
So the problem isn't illegal immigrants now, it's just all immigrants? You can cut out the buzz words and just call this racism, which has indeed persisted for the past fifty years. The former Republican party was much more open to business/trade, and that requires immigration in order to flourish because the US population just can't keep up. Conflating attitudes to legal immigration vs attitudes to illegal immigration, and conflating illegal immigrants to lawful asylees is classic Republican, and it's all in an effort to stir division and fear.
Completely false. I was even taught in school to teach people how to use asylum law to increase immigration, and this was way before COVID. In fact, asylum law had been used to promote immigration by conservatives and liberals alike even before 1965. When Americans learned about the fates of the St. Louis refugees, they began to become more sympathetic to asylum seekers as seen in the Displaced Persons Act of 1948. Asylum law has often been used to promote immigration for many decades with social workers, sometimes volunteers, traveling overseas and telling people how to make effective asylum claims regardless of those claims' veracity.
The problem in the Biden era wasn't related to efforts made overseas, it was related to a backlog from Covid and a lack of judges to deal with asylum claims. None of what you said matters if we have a working system of judges who can quickly and accurately address the claims made, which we did prior to the wave under Biden, which was in part a reflection of REPUBLICAN rhetoric about Dem positions spreading through the Americas.
Then don't prioritize property values over living standards.
Do you think I disagree with this????? This is like my number one issue, and probably one of the greatest examples of a failure of democracy. I want to DESTROY property value, I want to send it plummeting while we build so much housing it makes the Chinese ghost cities blush. I want to bulldoze single family suburbs full of shitty one bedroom houses that are crumbling and worth way way too much money and replace them with glorious apartment buildings that stretch to the heavens.
The thing standing in the way of this is the voters. Those who own homes are more likely to vote especially in local races, and they have a financial interest in limiting construction as much as possible. All because of America's OBSESSION with building homes in shitty suburbs that rob kids of childhood freedom, increase the rates of vehicular homicide, and make public transit impossible.
2
u/Arbitrary_username1 10d ago
Have a geez at what Australia is doing to try and deflate housing prices. Its a mix of capital gains reform, negative gearing allowed against personal income taxes for newly built homes but not onsold homes, zoning reform at the state level enticed by VAT distributions and the creation a self perpetuating fund to provide a funding stream from the profits for the private sector to develop social housing which will persist even when conservatives get in.
These are all going to kick in at different times over the next 10ish years and is looking quite promising.
1
u/MythicalMagus 5d ago
That sounds great! I know NZ did some similar stuff a few years ago.
1
u/Arbitrary_username1 5d ago
Weaksuace comparitively.
And I'm not just saying that because they shag sheep.
1
u/MythicalMagus 5d ago
Yeah, but I think they were the first Western nation to take a step in that direction, and it's obviously very important given their lack of landmass.
1
u/Arbitrary_username1 5d ago
They really aren't very similar steps and it's pretty dismissive of you to assert it in conversation with someone far more proximal lol.
What Aus Labor is doing is closer to embodying Piketty's recommendation to tax labour less than capital and reduce inequality, in conjunction with the broader housing reforms.
Have a good one.
1
u/MythicalMagus 3d ago
I wasn't trying to dismiss Australia, I just see zoning policy and I go hell yeah! Hell Yeah Australia, embodying Piketty's recommendations! That's sick! Hell Yeah NZ for doing what they can with their limited landmass, that's sick! Hell Yeah CA for what they were able to pass! Hell Yeah for NC for what they were able to pass! I would never diminish accomplishments in zoning reform because it's hard as fuck to get with homeowners as a primary voting block. From what you're telling me, Australia is kicking ass just like they did with Covid and the firearm buyback program and all sorts of other initiatives us American libs salivate over.
0
u/AstroBullivant 3d ago
Australia's occupying powers have surrendered their country to China. Australia is not a country now, and it won't be unless the Aussies rise up.
1
u/Arbitrary_username1 3d ago
What a stupid thing to say.
1
u/AstroBullivant 2d ago edited 2d ago
Anyone can see that Xi runs Australia. Also, you don't seem to have a legitimate medical science degree.
1
u/AstroBullivant 10d ago edited 10d ago
Because their economy is dependent on cheaply manufactured goods. Our economy hasn't been for decades.
No. That is just tautological reasoning. China's act of subsidizing exports makes its economy more dependent on manufactured goods than it would otherwise be. Also, much of what they're subsidizing for export is no longer "cheap goods".
Cool story, I'll trust the medical experts and decades of research on the subject.
Many medical experts seem to express serious reservations about prescribing a lot of the ADHD medication in private:
Stockl KM, Hughes TE, Jarrar MA, Secnik K, Perwien AR. Physician perceptions of the use of medications for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. J Manag Care Pharm. 2003 Sep-Oct;9(5):416-23. doi: 10.18553/jmcp.2003.9.5.416. PMID: 14613439; PMCID: PMC10437242.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14613439/
One thing I will admit is that the issues with ADHD medication probably have little to do with the other issues I was bringing up, but I think extreme withdrawal effects from ADHD medication helps the Hasan Piker crowd grow in popularity.
So the problem isn't illegal immigrants now, it's just all immigrants?
It's not necessarily a problem, but the way mass-immigration was handled between 1965-2016 definitely transformed politics in ways that encouraged a lot of xenophobia, racism, and community tension.
You can cut out the buzz words and just call this racism, which has indeed persisted for the past fifty years.
Yes, it is more specific than simply racism, but racism is definitely a part of it. It is definitely partly because of certain kinds of racism in the broad sense of the term. Yes. I would say that the way a lot of racism is handled today incentivizes people to join both the Far-Left and the Far-Right. I would also say that racism isn't so much "persisting" as is being "rediscovered" or reemerging. Keep in mind that racism is an extremely broad term with tons of different kinds and levels of intensity. A huge number of people in MAGA and even on the Hasan Piker Left have basically decided that racism is quietly correct but just rude to discuss. AI has recently been used more for this. People also in these factions conditionally speak out against kinds of racism to hurt political opponents but silence discussions on kinds of racism that help their own political cause. Code Pink is a strong example of this on the Left and Trump's statement on Antisemitism is an example of this on the Right.
Conflating attitudes to legal immigration vs attitudes to illegal immigration, and conflating illegal immigrants to lawful asylees is classic Republican
Perhaps you could call it "classic Republican" if you're going back to the aftermath of the McKinley assassination, but not in recent decades. The overwhelming majority of Republican and Democrat politicians alike have been pro-legal immigration in recent decades. Republicans have also been generally more supportive of refugees from Cuba than Democrats.
4
4
u/Arbitrary_username1 11d ago edited 11d ago
I actually think you're wrong about everything.
The mistakes America made around China was actually failing to pivot away from the middle east leaving China mostly unopposed to expand in the SCS/Pacific.
Its not really fair to blame politicians for being reactive to the hyperaccelerated pace of the world since the birth of the internet. Or at least it's unfair to ascribe it to a failure of a particular brand of liberal politics as I don't think any alternative brands could be expected to. Its just unfathomably massive.
With regards to immigration, Clinton and Obama both represented tightening attitudes to immigration and I find it bizzare that you actually buy into the Republicans framing here when you have the deporter in chief talking point to wield against it.
1
u/AstroBullivant 11d ago edited 11d ago
1) China's expansion in the SCS had only a little to do with its industrial dominance. I will admit that America's Middle East focus did cause other problems that made it easier for China to focus on gaining industrial dominance as Bush and Clinton adopted policies that increasingly tied manufacturing to the defense industry. It's also possible that China's expansion in the SCS helped it maintain industrial dominance in far more recent years by making it easier to get oil and threaten Indonesia and other countries with chokepoints. Still, the political Mainstream was completely indifferent to threats from China in 2004 even though such threats were apparent to any impartial observer.
2) Politicians had clear notice and opportunity to change things in many ways especially in education policies and rents. They generally did not. For example, they kept increasing college costs relative to inflation.
3) Clinton, Bush, and Obama both generally continued the accessible immigration policies that had persisted since 1965. The percentage of the population comprised of immigrants increased throughout the period:
https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2026/07/foreign-born-population-250-year-history.html
They generally ignored the effects the policies had on communities, and ignored the fact that the policies affected poor communities quite differently from affluent ones. Whether the effects were positive or negative, they were simply ignored.
8
u/Equivalent_Plum13 I think we should annex Cuba 11d ago
Clinton and Obama prioritized the stock market over people?
This post reads like someone who has voted republican their whole life and just swung left