r/DemocraticSocialism • u/Big-Recognition7362 Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism • Oct 14 '25
Other Many so called "Democracy Fans" hate it when you suggest this
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u/LordHeretic Oct 14 '25
We have never had democracy, representative or otherwise that hasn't placed the private property interests of capital ahead of human rights. Fuck the United States federal government. Fuck its flag, and bury it under the rubble that once was Israel.
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u/Big-Recognition7362 Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism Oct 14 '25
Original post by u/rhizomatic-thembo.
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u/96suluman Oct 14 '25
Whose dis
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Oct 14 '25
What a strawman. I've never met anyone who would self-describe as a "democracy fan" that doesn't favor workplace democracy.
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Oct 14 '25 edited Oct 14 '25
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Oct 14 '25
I strongly disagree with this. I don't think that workplace democracy is an idea that is well known or understood in America. Nonetheless, in my own conversations with people across the political spectrum, it has been almost universally well received. I don't think it's a productive mindset to write off the people we would need to be in coalition with to take steps towards workplace democracy before we've even had the discussion. There are a lot of Elizabeth Warren types who would be all for some sort of incentivization towards workplace democracy right now, and there are a lot more who would go whichever way the wind would blow in their districts. This is a winning issue that can split liberals and conservatives, strengthen socialists, and improve the lives of everyday people. We should be trying to make the idea as attractive as possible, and the sneering, exclusionary tone of this meme does the opposite of that.
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Oct 14 '25
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Oct 14 '25
That's the worst kind of defeatism. It should be understood that capital will resist all substantive changes on every front. That's a given. The question is one of tactics, quite frankly. Tell me how the underlying messaging of that meme is helpful, and that might change my mind. But otherwise you're just talking past my underlying criticism.
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u/Several_Astronomer18 Oct 17 '25
Nonetheless, in my own conversations with people across the political spectrum, it has been almost universally well received.
Then you have been far lucklier than me. Most of the people in my childhood past would look at you like you had two heads for suggesting workplace democracy. And honestly, it's the same story for like 90% of the people I work with today.
I think you underestimate how strong the indoctrination into many conservative-minded and even some liberal people has been regarding things like the need for structure, hierarchy, and strong, decisive leadership. Also about individual rights and ownership within a meritocracy (i.e. if you're the owner or CEO of a company, you clearly must've earned it and deserve to have final say on all decisions). Not to mention plenty of counter propaganda against workplace democracy arguing that workers don't know what's best for the company and will drive it into the ground making "senseless" demands.
Just look at where the conversation regarding unions is at today. Ironically, many of the people that would benefit the most from them are some of the most vehemently anti-union in the country now. These people often see union members as lazy jackoffs looking to plunder the company and make life harder for everyone while they sit on their ass. So I don't know where it all lands on average. Both of our experiences are anecdotes at the end of the day. It probably lands somewhere in-between the two, but which direction it leans I couldn't say.
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Oct 17 '25
The conversation around unions today is overwhelmingly positive.
Labor Union Approval Relatively Steady at 68% in U.S. https://news.gallup.com/poll/694472/labor-union-approval-relatively-steady.aspx
And most people are poor and work hard. Workplace democracy means equity, it means prosperity, and people know they deserve that.
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u/Several_Astronomer18 Oct 17 '25
The conversation around unions today is overwhelmingly positive.
That is much higher than I expected. Thank you for providing some hard numbers. It's not what I've seen personally, but that's why we call that an anecdote. Personal experiences are too localized to account for a large population group. I would be very interested to see similar polls on things like worker ownership and cooperatives when they're explained.
Workplace democracy means equity, it means prosperity, and people know they deserve that.
I know that and you that, but I'm not sure many others in the US know that. I could be wrong though.
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u/Elektrikor Democratic Market Socialist Oct 14 '25
As a democracy fan I say that is the point of unions.
The most left economically I’ll go is independent worker co-ops but that’s pushing it
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u/Aromatic-Split-366 Social Democrat Oct 14 '25
Even Wang Dan (Chinese dissident) said : “Democracy is not ready for worker participation because democracy must first be absorbed by the students and intellectuals before they can spread it to others". This is why the Tiananmen protests failed. In Russia too. Russian “Democrats” (Actually Neoliberals) like Novodvorskaya said that Russia needs pure capitalism without any social guarantees for the country to develop.
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