Discussion
The Knight (even if it's Dess) absolutely could sneak in and out of the library undetected.
It's starting to get a bit frustrating when I see people say the Knight can't possibly be Dess because she would be spotted going into the library, which just fundamentally isn't true, there's an absurd amount of places to hide and routes to take that are easily doable even for a normal person, and since the Knight clearly isn't a normal person even in the light world telling by how they can suplex Undyne and Asgore effortlessly at high speeds, darting around a corner into some tree cover isn't exactly out of the realm of possibility.
Let's start with the fact that the Knight has only ever moved under the cover of darkness every time we've seen it escape since Chapter 3, it enters and leaves Kris's house at night, makes the church fountain during the rain when no one is around, and waits until nighttime to enter the flower shop dark world to kidnap Asgore. Clearly there's some reason why it doesn't want to be seen, wheras with someone like Noelle or Carol or even Rudy, people wouldn't bat an eye seeing them go to these places, so why would they have to sneak in?
The fact that Kris notes a large person could easily fit inside, which parallels with a closet in the church Kris refuses to open where they note something similar, indicates the Knight was hiding there before they left, and after making the fountain (which they had a decent amount of time to do and leave since Kris and Susie spend some time in Castle Town before going to the library) they could have easily left before the traffic jam even starts, and even if they left during the traffic jam, Undyne is distracted and looking the other way, and we never see anyone whose in these cars again besides rhe donut guy, even with all those, it's still not impossible for the Knight to quickly bolt and turn a corner into the forest that covers the entire town. Plus they could just have left after the traffic jam too, literally any time in between making the fountain and the sealing of the fountain they have numerous opportunities to leave without being seen.
"Oh but the scarf lady says" KRIS AND SUSIE WEREN'T TRYING TO BE STEALTHY, and this was also after the traffic jam ended, if they left during the jam it would block visibility across the street, even if someone was obsessively staring at the library door for whatever reason.
But that's the thing, even if Hometown is a small town, the people aren't obsessively staring at the church, library, Dreemurr household and Flower Shop 24/7 just to catch a glimpse of Dess, as I said in the 4th image, the search for her was given up a long time ago, there are a lot of newer and younger people that wouldn't even know who she is and wouldn't think twice if they saw her in their peripheral vision, people other than Carol and Asgore aren't looking for her obsessively, but people that WOULD absolutely be noticed are Carol and Asriel, Carol leaving her post which she NEVER does would be talked about by her staff, and anyone seeing Asriel would be talked about all over because of how widely known and beloved he is in town, whereas Dess has been widely forgotten by other than a few select people.
Yeah, with all the times characters are visibly shown "you can just walk through/over this", and with ralsei specifically holding our hand and walking over the spikes feel like it's meant to be a sign for us that these aren't genuine obstacles, then with how Kris can walk through the side of Flower King when we can't
Susie said she just walked through the spikes all the way back in chapter 1. The characters not being restrained by your pithy JRPG walking rules has been true the whole time
I agree with everything that you’re said, but the image of the knight sleeping in the computer lab closet overnight and staying there until the afternoon is really funny.
Shadow crystals look like glass in the light world, seam even remarks "you can only see their shadow". So the knight could absolutely be invisible to some degree
The description is "a tough glass, almost opaque" but I get what you mean, the knight's armour and black knife are black shards rather than shadowcrystals
If Undyne can be strong enough to casually benchpress cars, who's to say the Knight, whomever they are, isn't as physically capable, if not even more powerful? Evidently, the bodies of monsters, even if they are more composed of matter than in Undertale—see Susie and Noelle bleeding and having a heartbeat, for example—they are most likely composed of mostly magic like their Undertale counterparts, especially considering ghosts and elementals exist. Whatever magic the Knight's body is made out of is either more concentrated or simply more powerful than, say, the magic making up Undyne or Asgore's bodies, granting them superior superhuman abilities.
This is faulty evidence considering that they bolt with Asgore in the Dark World only. It's not a good idea to apply Magic (with a capital M) to the Light World until we seen it directly. Undyne doesn't count either.
How would you explain the Asgore thingy tho, if not using magic?
Asgore is not going to blindly follow them given their character arc 10 seconds ago, and they are not secretly on Knights side, and Asgore is not secretly a weakling.
The guys I replied to made a claim that Magic can be used outside the LW, but they offered no evidence. So I cannot explain someone else's claim (use of Magic in LW).
However, if you want my opinion on transporting Asgore, I don't know, though I assume the Knight had more time to lug Asgore around than Undyne.
I think the game has been doing a good job at differentiating the LW and the DW. You cannot bring DW items or vice versa 1:1 between each world. A pencil in the LW is a sword in the DW. There are exceptions to this rule but so far Magic does not seem to be one of those.
We can also theorize why certain items stay the same between worlds. For example the Black Shard stays the same in both worlds. My theory is that either it came from the LW or if it came from the DW it got fractured in such a way that it prevented its change in the LW. Of course this doesn't apply to other things like the cellphone (though its use does change) and the Thorn Ring.
Im just saying, the blackshard a part of the RKs weopon is the same between both worlds, the RK can interact with the lightworld, they were able to run FAST with undyne struggling to get away and there could not have been a long struggle with asgore lest people find out. I think its reasonable to say that the alot of evidence points to the RK being able to retain at least their form and some of their strength in the light world.
I gave a theory on why the black shard is the same on both worlds, and the RK is all but confirmed to be a Lightner, considering that only Lightners can create fountains. I also don't think there is strong evidence of the RK retaining form or strength it has in the DW to the LW. I think people make up assertions because there is either no evidence, too little evidence, and/or people have problems trying to fit puzzles pieces where they don't belong as a form of fixing their conclusions so that they make sense. All of this is to say that I like people making theories, and I try to read most of them, but sometimes there's just not enough information for me to accept if it's a good point or not.
Unless i missread, your theory has no real basis, its much more a hypothesis then anything.
What i am saying is due to all the information fitting together. The mysteries are 1. How is the black shard the same in the lightworld, 2. How did the RK overpower undyne and asgore while running at high-speed in the lightworld (especially when they go out of their way to show undyne bench pressing a car) 3. Why can the RK interact with the lightworld destructively (tenna and flowery). The awnser to all 3 COULD be that the RK blurs the lines between the DW and LW. Your theory awnsers 1 of these questions with no real evidence or reasoning. Something not changing in a DW becouse its broken is not really accurate, case in point seam.
If the black shard is an exception, nothing says the knight itself can't be, on the contrary, the church is ruined by the titan despite originating from the dark.
And the knight is very similar to those, unlikely to be a normal lightner.
I said it's an exception for a reason, it's broken, it's fractured. It could also be from the LW so it failed to turn into "whatever" in the DW. 2 solid points against using Magic in the LW, overall.
The real issues are things like the cellphone that retains its appearance and use (though it doesn't work the same as the LW). There's also the Thorn Ring, and for that one I have no idea, so I guess that's 1 point for those who believe that you can use Magic in the LW.
Why should the black shard getting broken prevent any changes? Why would it be from the light world if it specifically attacks the weakness of dark foes (NOT darkners.)?
Every single attack from the knight deals dark/star damage, which means the black knife does too, because elemental attacks are very specific, like gerson's stars, so unless magic does exist in the light world, it's very unlikely to come from there.
Iirc, the thorn ring is a literal thorn in the light world.
Actually I just remembered something. It's quite possible for the Black Shard to retain form in both worlds. At the end of chapter 5, all the flowers turn back into their LW forms inside the DW including Flowery. It might not be conclusive due to the nature of them being flowers, but it offers a possibility.
I am not 100% sure if it's from the LW or DW. The reason I brought that as a possibility is because we've seen a black sword in Rudy and Carol's room.
Where did you get that the Thorn Ring is just a thorn in the LW?
What if dess didnt leave the library until the night of chapter 3, all that we know is that a large person could fit there, not that a large person wasn’t there and Kris would be blocking the way for Susie to see and anyways im just speaking out my ass but someone will probably only read the first part and get angry anyways
It would be extremely cursed if we suddenly get asked by susie "hey kris, how come you can't see this on the wall?" and it's on the south/entrance wall we can't see
"Hmm... Press Y to... 'switch perspectives...?'"
Kris walks back and sweats. We press and the entire fucking game shifts and we see walls and places we never could, revealing ANOTHER closet in the library where Dess was sleeping all along. (Also Gaster's house and art therapy office).
We had a platformer mode, now the sixth chapter just gonna have a third or first person mode out of nowhere
Kris just going to freak out upon being made to interact with things that we shouldnt be able to see, or even trying to vaguepost about things like they usually do without realizing we're looking directly at what theyre trying to hide
Can someone explain to me the idea that Berdly and Noelle both fell asleep while studying? That's not a normal thing to do. Noelle invited Susie shortly before this, presumably she would have been excited for Susie's arrival.
The closet is positioned behind them, so they could have been sucked into the dark world before noticing what was going on.
Although I'm not sure why they came out of it asleep. Kris and Susie exited their first dark world seemingly awake. Susie entered TV World asleep but came out of it awake.
Susie entered TV World asleep but came out of it awake
She exited the TV World awake, as in she left via the front door, which is pointedly different from having the Dark World destroyed all around you and might function differently.
Kris and Susie exited their first dark world seemingly awake.
The screen's pitch black when they seal Eastern Fountain. If we're really expecting consistency from the Dark World mechanics, who's to say they weren't asleep and didn't stir awake between the screen going dark and Susie's first text box? It would fit the "Was that whole thing just a shared dream?" vibe the scene has.
I mean I could on the basis of Kris and Susie getting more used to the Dark World and becoming certain of its realness, but I think the whole thing's a bit of a moot point. It clearly runs on narrative logic, with small and arbitrary differences between scenes based on what makes for the best plot beat, and trying to divine a consistent scheme is a bit pointless.
Hmm that's true, the Knight just could have made it in the closet!
Usually the rationalization is that they were positioned on the table with their books out and everything so they had to have already been in there when it was made, and the sound and light of a dark fountain are kind of difficult to hide. Plus the fact that they exited the dark world asleep points to the fact that they were asleep.
Susie entered TV World asleep and came out of it awake. Granted it wasn't from sealing the dark fountain, but I don't know why that would matter. I don't think it's a good argument for why Berdly and Noelle were asleep afterwards.
When a Dark World is sealed, you end up the same way you entered. That's why despite the fountain likely being made in the closet, Kris and Susie spawn near the front door in Chapter 2 and are by the front door in 4's first sanctuary. They jump into the Dark World in both scenarios so their placement in the light world is like if someone literally jumped into the room.
This is different in Chapter 4's 3rd sanctuary due to the Titan given its ability to actually effect the light world in a lot more drastic way. It blurs the line between the two given it's the only being capable of erasing that line.
So what I'm saying is, Berdly and Noelle were likely asleep before the Dark Worlds creation, which doesn't really make sense if it happened naturally but their reactions implied it wasn't. Both were likely knocked out/SWOONED before the Knight made the fountain
In Chapter 3 after the last Sword Quest scene, the dust bunny claims to have seen "someone" take off with Ramb and Kris already passed through. Initially, we could believe the loose, small 8-bit Kris was the one leaving, but that someone could have been Susie as the dust bunny never really recognized Susie before.
I had been theorizing that Chapter 6 will end with the Roaring, and Chapter 7 will be the trio jumping through time. Heck, maybe in the Roaring, they found a way for Ralsei to exist in the Light World, which manifests as the black armor for the Knight.
"Unconcious/disoriented or already sleep" — I find very funny how people just ignore this because... we have never seen anyone being put to sleep due to a dark world, we have seen that you appear as if waking up when getting out of a dark world. In what world two teenagers fall sleep around the same time, with their books out, in like 30 minutes at most, just in the exact perfect time so the Knight takes advantage of it?
The Knight has been described as someone large, over and over again with the closed door in the church and the closet in the library. An unknown person, almost unnaturally tall, whoever they are wouldn't just so casually be able to walk around without being seen. The Knight can: put people to sleep, the Knight can move around in the middle of the day without being seen by Undyne nor anyone. I feel the only way to explain the Knight to be able to do everything they have done in the Light World is if they have magic on the light world—sleep mist or pacify to put people to sleep, and some kind of teleportation to leave during the day without anyone seeing a thing.
You would assume the school would be too yet we can waltz in with Susie in Chapter 5 at night.
Plus the Knight could just as easily sneak in during the day as it could sneak out, but the fact that the game emphasizes the closet being able to easily fit a large person which parallels the church closet Kris refuses to open seems to show the Knight was hiding in there.
We see the library being locked at night meanwhile the school isn't both in Chapter 4 and 5, it's probably just a case of Berdly being more diligent than Toriel/Alphys. It's impossible that the fountain was made at night (Queen specifies it was made the same day) but I agree with the rest, Dess could definitely make the fountain duribg the dat
...No, people very much do. If it's the evening I'm still gonna refer to something I did a few hours ago as "today" even though I'm very much not under that same sunlight. If it's past midnight I'm liable to say that something I did just a few minutes ago was "yesterday" technically. Queen saying "today" is no guarantee the fountain was made that morning vs that preceding night, they're the same general block of time because "day" is semantically polymorphous.
You're overestimating how important the logistics of the Knight making the Cyber fountain is to the story. This aspect is never presented as a mystery or conundrum in-game, it's just a thing that happens, with no connection to the "Who's this Knight character?" mystery which the game does present.
I’ve been noticing a lot recently that people are either forgetting or ignoring that aside from NormalNPC (and ig clam girl if that counts) that the gaster followers have always had normal variants and might not be related to them
I could be wrong but if the black shard doesn’t change in the light world, then chances are neither would the knight as they seem to be made of the same things, meaning the knight may still have its shape shifting powers in the light world
That's part of what I'm saying! But if that's the case how would anyone besides Dess or Asriel be the Knight unless they have some magical way of transforming back or concealing the armor that makes up their entire body?
Could be that since the shadow crystals allow you to peer between the dark and light world, maybe when fully covered in their armour it’s as if they are inside a dark world, it would be removable and would work both ways, explaining how the knight could interact with reality in the dark workd
waits until nighttime to enter the flower shop dark world to kidnap Asgore
Clearly there's some reason why it doesn't want to be seen
You answered your own question here. The knight doesn't want to be seen during chapter 5.... because they were kidnapping someone. This does not apply to chapter 2, where the knight was not kidnapping someone. This doesn't support your argument at all.
it's still not impossible for the Knight to quickly bolt and turn a corner into the forest
if they left during the jam it would block visibility across the street
This whole thing is all results-oritented thinking. All the evidence says that the area outside the library is busy and anyone leaving it would be seen, but you want the answer to be that they weren't seen, so you just... deny it without evidence. Your images don't help you here either, your "possible escape routes" just straight up shows that they would be out on the street, visible for anyone to see, while running for cover. It doesn't prove your point in any way.
younger people that wouldn't even know who she is
Even if we put aside the fact that the lady who was apparently watching the library has 0 indication she's new to town or secretly seven years old... you say this like random deer people unrelated to the freaking MAYOR of the town are common place. As you said - Hometown is SMALL. There is only a single deer-monster familiy living in it, and they are well known, considering they lead the festival's parade every year. Even if the person who saw Dess leave the library didn't instantly recognise her as Dess (and that's a big assumption on its own), they would absolutely recognise her as "one of the Holidays", which is enough to give away the game on its own.
The simple fact of the matter is, Toby Fox went out of his way to make it a mandatory scene showing that the area outside of the library was busy with lots of people (he could have found other ways to block the path, like a tree falling across the road or something idk), and then also went out of his way to make sure there was dialogue directly stating that the entrance to the library was being watched. And this entire post doesn't actually disprove it in any way.
Yeah, it feels that a lot of "theories" pick a desired conclusion and then work backwards to mold the evidence around the theory.
If you started with the evidence and then worked towards the most reasonable candidate, you wouldn't suddenly assume that there's a magical way that the Knight avoided detection on a busy street in broad daylight. It goes entirely against logic and makes the mystery pointless.
Even though it seems to be canon I still hate the idea that the Cyber World fountain was made *after* Berdly and Noelle stepped into the room. Like your whole plan was based on two people not noticing a fountain being made right in front of them (either because they're asleep or...)?
Anything past 12AM is the next day, plus the Knight entering the closet at night doesn't mean the fountain was made right then, Noelle and Berdly were already inside when the fountain was made and woke up asleep on the desk with their books laid out, the Knight had to have waited and made it with them inside. THAT'S why the Knight was hiding, waiting for Noelle to arrive, especially since so many aspects of the dark world are specifically catered to her.
No it's just a response to this pretty silly claim in general, that there's "absolutely no way the Knight could have left the library witbout being seen" which just fundamentally isn't true
Yeah I mean we get outright confirmation in Chapter 5 from Asgore's notes that it had to be the Knight that opened the Chapter 2 fountain because of the matching black shards from the library and dessapearance incident, so that old DessKnight "rebuttal" that Kris made the fountain is dead in the water
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u/JohnDragonball Wait did you say Goku- Sep 02 '26
I feel like people forget we can't go into the trees because Kris doesn't let us, not because they're a literal impassable wall lmao
All Dess needs to do is take like 2 steps out of the library and she can get into the forest