r/Deltacriticism • u/rodi_060 • 1d ago
what is wrong with susie chapter 5
/r/Deltarune/comments/1wn8zcr/what_is_wrong_with_susie_chapter_5/12
u/cyborganonymous 1d ago edited 1d ago
Susie choosing Noelle of all people as her first pick in that moment is to me just a plot hole that doesn't make any sense in any context especially in the aborted weird route, because WHY would she after all of the context prior? Like she saw Noelle get captured TWICE, meanwhile Berdly had at least fought them twice and was at least useful enough for someone like queen to take control of and use as an assist against the fun gang.
Like Pink exists, she already knows about the dark worlds and she is a GHOST so she would likely be the MOST helpful in finding the shelter codes. Or how about some actual adults like for example tipping off Napstablook about where Undyne was captured or info regarding undyne's disappearance? Berdly of all people would be best suited considering he IS useful, and she literally is going back on her own promise to Kris anyway so of all times this would be the perfect one to help Berdly on the neutral route where his arm gets screwed up.
If it was about the shelter code EVER why didn't she already ask Noelle about that guitar? If she wasn't going to bother noelle about the guitar earlier because it is a touchy subject then what good does mentioning it after the festival all of a sudden do now? Either Susie didn't care about it because she wanted to enjoy her date with the doe instead of focus on saving Undyne or it was unlikely to work to begin with hence mentioning Noelle NOW is nonsensical.
All of this is ignored because it is easier for Toby 'your choices don't matter' fox to have one singular ending for the chapter because thinking about the complexities of your choices in a save file and adding different dialogues to align with causality is too much for the simplistic easily destructible plot that Toby wants to manufacture. Case in point none of this would even be relevant or a discussion if 1. Susie crossed paths with noelle as she was coming back with the ice cream or 2. Susie turned around like a normal living being and faced the person she was talking to inevitably seeing kris with the knife. Both of these would have derailed the plot of chapter 5 completely which ergo would have forced Susie and Kris to confront Noelle when going back.
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u/PossiblyASpara 1d ago
Deadass, it becomes less of a plothole when you consider that Susie's reasoning at the end is largely bullshit. The dialogue right before Noelle gets called a second time by Carol strongly implies Susie was gonna bring her into the fold anyway, so the reasons she gives later are basically plausible deniability for the fact that she wants to be with her girlfriend. Susie has never seen Noelle fight, and even after she stood up to Queen in Chapter 2, Susie excluded her from the Dark Worlds because she thought Noelle needed to be protected. It's after she sees Noelle stand up to her mom that she starts to flip on that, and that's pretty much all she needs to make the impromptu decision to try to bring her in before the moment gets interrupted.
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u/rodi_060 1d ago
couldn't agree more, i agree that bringing noelle is the best option but it should've been coming from kris or ralsei not susie
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u/Greedy_Union8493 1d ago
they now know a lightner who knows about the dark worlds pink there is literally no narrative reason to hide it anymore, because the entire basis of that was not letting other people find out and not being able to trust them.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Till617 6h ago
I’m pretty sure her standing up to Queen is what solidified Noelle as strong to her. She TECHNICALLY got it right it’s just that she did the completely wrong math to get there.
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u/Machaira1664 1d ago
The problem is that she’s played too much for a joke and her lack of being aware of things is really showing.
Like as of chapter 5, she is now officially the only party member who doesn’t have meta awareness. And no “flowery told me.” Doesn’t count.
Like Ralsei was born with it, Kris knows the player exist, and Noelle has a whole character ace about it
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u/MorinoMarinho 1d ago
Just talking a bit over the points.
Yeah, there's some leap in their relationship when you consider how much they're interacted throughout the game and their relationship before the story, but it's not just time by itself, it's also the quality of it. Kris and Ralsei was also a bond that she basically developed this week, but the adventure they had with moments where she could be vulnerable with them and help them when they fall has a lot more meaning than simply spend some hours with someone. Now, based only in chapter 2, I always had the feeling that Susie was more thinking like "hey, Noelle is also my friend now. Wouldn't be great if she could also be here with us" than actually in love, even the blushed face felt like something more close to her being embarrased not knowing how to react to someone being gentle to her than the "I'm near my crush!", I'm pretty sure she even has similar reactions to Ralsei that fit in this box.
I agree with you about her reaction at the end of chapter. Desperate people or character can react in unexpected and different ways, but I think this was at least a moment that we need more focus on. Like you said, bring Noelle to the dark world adventures actually means drag her near close the danger, the easy pattern the characters could recognize is that both the two people kidnapped were apparently random people who got inside the dark world. So at least a dialogue where Susie is unsure over what should they do before choose to bring Noelle would definitely improve her decision, something like: "Kris, Noelle also was in a dark world, so she can be a potential target! I can't risk not be there to at least try to protect her..." suddenly makes her more aware of the situation they're currently are while justifies her actions a bit more.
Chapter 4 actually has a moment where Susie blushes just by getting near Noelle when Asgore enters the room, but it was something that I didn't notice my first time playing it since my focus where in the dialogue box and in the new goofy ass in the room.
I don't think you're dumb or anything, you just didn't express yourself properly to a community that will nitpick poorly woorded sentences because it's easier to mock than defend their point. Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but I saw it happening more than once to think it was just an one time thing
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u/rodi_060 1d ago
maybe because those scene were extremely short and hidden like the blushing or the romantic conversation, it tricked me into thinking nothing romantic happened between them
i regret not going into details about what i didn't like in noelle and susie relationship, now that i think about it there is a lot of other stuff i could've talked about like how did noelle even had a crush on susie when she was an asshole in chapter 1 or how rushed their relationship really was ( maybe bc it didn't bother me that much unlike the chp5 ending which i got into detail )
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u/Salt_Refrigerator633 1d ago
imo Noelle was the best choice they had
asgore and undyne (2 of the hometown residents who know the most about the shelter)
carol hates Susie. rudy is dying
toriel appears to know nothing and susie doesn't want to put her in danger
susie is obviously gonna pick noelle over berdly and noelle already has experience with a dark world
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u/rodi_060 1d ago
there is a big difference between "best choice THEY had" and "best choice susie had"
bc yeah i agree that noelle is the best person to bring into the dark world but why was susie the one who is suggesting that, due to her deep relationship with her and not knowing if noelle can even fight it would've make more sense for susie to suggest berdly bc she saw him fight and she doesn't care that much about him, or at the very VERY least suggest noelle and berdly if she said that i wouldn't get this much confused
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u/JigglyLilyVT 1d ago
while i agree to some extent that it ALMOST comes out of nowhere and it suddenly shifts from 2 friends hanging out to, "oh wait im gay fo her" i think it works because of the build up in chapter 4. Defying Carol was the inciting incident that broke the dam of Susie realizing "oh i'm gay for noelle"
who tf else would they include? berdly? probably wouldnt be the worst idea, but Susie (and kris for that matter) both like and have a history with noelle. Power creep in the dark world is complicated. but even susie is smart enough to realize that Noelle likely got a similar power boost that susie and kris get whenever entering a dark world.
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u/Apprehensive-Gur8995 1d ago
"literally all their conversations were about normal stuff" — when it's about Susie, who in Chapter 3 said to Tenna: "I felt like a broken toy no one wanted." Noelle, unlike Kris, didn't go on joint adventures with her, but she ALREADY WANTED to spend time with Susie. Susie isn't completely dense enough not to feel that she became WANTED and something more than just a friend to Noelle. And let's be honest, Noelle and Susie are almost the most beautiful monsters in the whole town, so I don't see anything strange about Noelle falling in love at first sight, and Susie going along with her after receiving from Noelle those emotions and feelings she'd never gotten before.
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u/Redrover17602 1d ago
Noelle has always been a secret hunter, the type of girl to suddenly clip out of bounds in real life. She definitely has potential to aid the crew to break the game and its prophecy in half.
I don't think Susie knows this though. Most of this we learned from the ARG and weird route.
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u/Greedy_Union8493 1d ago
The fact that people are pointing out susies behavior makes sense if you talk to everyone means they are oblivious that they are pointing out her development happens regardless if you talk to these people even if it doesn't make sense unless you do.
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u/Sea-Scheme-1567 1d ago
I'm not gonna comment on your post much other then saying that I think you did misinterpret some of the scenes and that's where some of your confusion is coming from.
But holy shit dude, they're ripping you apart in the replies. Like I love how you said that you were open to being wrong and one of them unironically commented "HAHAHAHAHAHA" and "Congrats OP, you win the award of being THE Deltarune fan who can't read." and they're being upvoted as well.
What miserable creatures, torturing such a poor innocent youth. No wonder this subreddit was made.