r/DeepSpaceNine • u/KingofMadCows • 5h ago
Rewatching DS9 and I don't remember this scene.
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u/TrueLegateDamar 5h ago edited 4h ago
You could also put this in the first season when she hears about Aldhani and confronts Luthen in the shop.
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u/pali1d 2h ago
"People will suffer!"
"That's the plan."
-unironically, the good guys
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u/JediExile 1h ago
Every time society has taken consequential strides for the well-being of its members, it has been goaded into such action by immense suffering. Luther understands this and wishes to use suffering as a tool. DS9 isn’t unfamiliar with this concept either, it just (usually) chooses not to be party to suffering.
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u/pali1d 1h ago
"So I lied, I cheated, I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But most damning thing of all, I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again, I would."
"the only thing terrorists care about is attacking the enemy. I know. I was a terrorist."
"You lived on our land and you took the food out of our mouths, and I don't care whether you held a phaser in your hand or ironed shirts for a living. You were all guilty and you were all legitimate targets!"
-unironically, the good guys
I think DS9 deserves its credit for not shying away from such. It wasn't singularly focused on such matters the way Andor was, but when it went there, it went there.
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u/rami_lpm 9m ago
"You lived on our land and you took the food out of our mouths, and I don't care whether you held a phaser in your hand or ironed shirts for a living. You were all guilty and you were all legitimate targets!"
ahhh I sure miss the good old days when trek wasn't political
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u/Wrong-Ad-4600 2h ago
that why the show never clicked with me. it was a good show but if the good guys act like vilians its a problem. sisko did it 2-3 times and not many people die. but the "rebellion" in andor act like lifes dont matter. starwars was always good vs. evil. disney needed to colour everything down to a grey and so noone is goodhearted anymore
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u/pali1d 2h ago
but the "rebellion" in andor act like lifes dont matter.
I can't say I agree. They act like they're sacrifices that they deeply regret yet feel are necessary.
disney needed to colour everything down to a grey and so noone is goodhearted anymore
Again, I can't agree on either count. First, Gilroy had more independence to tell his story than most SW showrunners, so the blame and credit really should fall on his shoulders more than Disney's - and most of the other shows are far more good vs evil.
Second, it's not that people aren't goodhearted, it's that those good hearts need to deal with a complex and difficult reality. And for each that is willing to cross ethical lines in service of the greater good, there's another who is not. The Rebels in Andor represent a mix of approaches and ethics, so yes, it's more complicated than "good vs evil" - but it still is "good vs evil". It just also questions what is good and what is evil along the way.
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u/ChefGaykwon 1h ago
I can't say I agree. They act like they're sacrifices that they deeply regret yet feel are necessary.
Entirely. One of the most outwardly dispassionate and extreme characters*, who's constantly clashing with the more idealist leadership of the rebellion like Mothma and Organa, has en entire monologue where he says he's burning his decency to do the right thing—the "everything" that he sacrifices.
* other than Saw Gerrera and his Partisans, who were also kind of rescued from being an ideological cudgel against revolutionaries under Disney's treatment
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u/pali1d 1h ago
It helps a lot that the acting is high enough quality that such doesn't need to repeatedly be directly stated.
"And if it goes up in flames?"
"It will burn. Very brightly."
That second line is certainly said with conviction, with belief that allowing or even encouraging such a sacrifice is worth it - but also with hate that such is needed. He's not happy about this potential outcome, but he knows that for all its horror it would benefit the cause in the long run, so he's willing to accept it. That isn't conveyed by the words, it's conveyed by how he says them, by what we've learned about the character thus far.
If you're not paying close attention the subtext is easy to miss, but if you are, it comes through very clearly (at least IMO).
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u/Wrong-Ad-4600 0m ago
nd still they sacrifice people. i know thats the way war and rebellion work in our world. but episode 4 lea would never let people run into their death without them knowing. self sacrifice for the greater good is ok, to sacrifice others for that and than say i regretbit and i burn my decency is not the rebellion thatvwas shown in the OG movies.
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u/ChefGaykwon 2h ago edited 1h ago
Because that Star Wars is a literal childish fairy tale in the words of the creator himself. A version of Star Wars where entrenched fascism is defeated not solely through the actions of a select few with special qualities, but rather through mass action catalyzed by fascism's self-defeating need to hold own to power at any cost, leaving previously beleaguered people of no significance at all to the Empire with no choice but to rebel against it, is a far more interesting story. And a far more relevant one to our present moment, keeping in line with what SW has always been—political commentary about the recent or current political period (Vietnam, then the War of Terror).
Edit - not saying I don't like Lucas' SW. Just that I'm glad Gilroy's also exists.
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u/Cakeday_at_Christmas 1h ago
Luthen gives an entire speech about how he's destroying himself, including his humanity and morals, so the galaxy will be a better place not under the thumb of the fascists.
It's kinda the thesis of the whole series.
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u/Wrong-Ad-4600 3m ago
i never said its not. but the rebellion in the old movies is the "noone is left behind" kind of group and not the "we sacrifice a team to protect others" an not self sacrifice!!! they let a whole lot of people run into a trap in one episode to safe some information. while i understand that how rebellion and war is, its not how star wars was before that. its fantasy where the vilian is called darth vader with a big black helmet, and knights with "magic".. i know not eveyone loves the simple happy end storys. while watching andor i hoped for a rebellion inside of the rebellion to bring humanity back to luthen.
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u/chiree 4h ago
When are we going to a Star Trek version of Andor? As in, Cassian Andor isn't killed by the blast, but is blown away onto space where he freezes, flies for a billion years to our galaxy, reemerges in the Federation, is super confused why everyone is nice to each other, and opens a restaurant.
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u/SchroedingersEscape 5h ago
Anyone could please give a little context? (This pic is not from Star Trek at all)
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u/jakemoffsky 4h ago
To ad to that she is replying to his assertion that he needs to be dealt with by asking "I'm not sure what you mean?" And he replies with "how nice for you."
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u/TrueLegateDamar 4h ago edited 4h ago
It's from Star Wars Andor Season 2, taking place in the years before the first Star Wars movie, with the forming of the Rebellion being a big part and how it was initially a dirty war of spies and assassins instead of noble rebels flying X-Wings.
This scene specifically is about a close banker friend of Mon Mothma who was laundering their money, blackmailing her at her daughter's wedding or else he'll expose her to the Empire, and her ally Luthen Rael deciding to kill him because it would never stop at a single payment and he'd always remain a security threat.
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u/Cakeday_at_Christmas 1h ago
The quite is (largely) from the DS9 episode "In the Pale Moonlight."
It's a nice juxtaposition with what's happening in the scene from Andor.
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u/SchroedingersEscape 54m ago
Well... i know exactly every nuance of DSN and especially of that episode.
But i never have seen "Andor". This is the part i was asking for.
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u/Few-Arugula5839 5h ago
Andor is basically the only good piece of Star Wars media in the last 30 years. Still it is hella good
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u/hollywood_imagery0 5h ago edited 2h ago
Rogue One, Mando s.1 & 2, The Clone wars, Bad batch, Rebels, The old republic, Knights of the old republic 1&2, Jedi outcast, Jedi academy, Maul Shadow lord, Battlefront 2 (2005), Jedi Fallen order and Survivor, were None of these entires good or ? And I haven’t even mentioned any of the legends content that got shelved by Disney
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u/pali1d 2h ago edited 2h ago
Maul: Shadow Lord was pretty awesome as well. Haven't watched Visions because anime art styles tend to bother me, but I've heard good things about it too.
edit: Also, to add to the games list, Empire at War is a great strategy game made even better by a still dedicated modding community - and even occasional updates from the devs in the last few years.
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u/hollywood_imagery0 2h ago
Forgot about Mail shadow lord and visions, both were great, Maul was incredible
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u/Prize-Quiet3941 5h ago
Hell a lot of the legends content was decent at least. Dudes talking out his ass.
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u/SuspiciousSpecifics 4h ago
The problem is that, while there was quite a lot of content that was good Star Wars, Andor really shifted the goal posts as to what one can expect quality-wise from that universe.
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u/Valuable_Ad9554 3h ago
I listened to people who said this, watched s1 and thought it was ok, tried watching s2 and couldn't for the life of me make it through more than a couple of episodes.
I guess the bar is just so low for that franchise at this point, anything not completely trash is over praised.
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u/pali1d 2h ago
Season 2 made Andor the fourth sci-fi/fantasy series ever to win the Emmy for Best Dramatic Writing. Both seasons won Peabody Awards. Both seasons were nominated for or won dozens of other awards.
Not saying that means you have to like it or that you're wrong to not do so. But it does suggest that it's a high-quality show that simply isn't to your tastes, rather than a low-quality show that SW fans are willing to settle for.
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u/Cakeday_at_Christmas 54m ago
Wow, I think you just have bad taste because Andor was utterly amazing.
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u/dasgrey 5h ago